Chael Sonnen: A Star Is Born at UFC 109
Judging from the volume and intensity of the comments on the recent Chael Sonnen/Ed Soares posts, Sonnen's brand of smack talk and grinding decision wins have struck a nerve with MMA fans.
After a long series of tedious middleweight bouts in which the champion Anderson Silva and his opponents respected each other but disrespected the fans by putting on weak fights, we now have someone in contention who knows how to get the fans to care.
Mike Chiappetta breaks it down:
The UFC middleweight who uses words as a weapon as often as he uses wrestling and ground and pound vaulted to the challenger-in-waiting spot in the UFC middleweight division by grinding down heavily favored Nate Marquardt en route to a lopsided decision win at UFC 109.
That means that if Silva can get past his next scheduled opponent in Vitor Belfort at UFC 112 in April, he will meet one of the only men who's ever badmouthed him in public. A few months ago, no one would have had any interest in that matchup, but what a difference a couple wins and few choice words can make.
"Chael came out of nowhere," UFC President Dana White admitted in the UFC 109 post-fight press conference. "He was in the WEC and came over here and has blown some people away. We have Vitor and Anderson which is interesting and exciting, and now there's another guy who is waiting in line who is interesting and exciting. He brings something different into the fight that a lot of people are going to look at. If he gets this thing to the ground, it'll be an interesting fight. He popped out of nowhere, and it's a beautiful thing."
But it's more than just Sonnen's outrageous and outspoken brand of smack-talk that has vaulted him to the top. He's also made a huge improvement in his mental game. Here's Sonnen's coach Matt Lindland talking to Kevin Iole:
"He had to learn how to get tough," Lindland said. "If there was one thing he lacked in the past, it was toughness. If he took a knee to the head, well, you can take that knee and say, ‘I’m good,’ and keep fighting through it. But nobody would have blamed him for quitting. You get knocked out with a knee to the head and everyone would say, ‘Hey, good job. You worked hard. You fought tough.’
"But you know what? That’s not good enough in this sport. It’s not good enough if you’re going to take a title. You have to fight through that [expletive]. That’s what he’s willing to do now and that’s what he’s going to do when he goes out and shocks the world and wins the world title."
To be honest, it would be a monumental feat for someone with Sonnen's style to beat Anderson Silva. With his very limited finishing options, Sonnen would need to dominate all five rounds against possibly the most dangerous KO artist in MMA history. The most comparable title shot win would be Randy Couture over Tim Sylvia. We can all laugh now, but going into that fight it seemed impossible that Couture would dominate that fight from pillar to post and avoid Sylvia's power.
Obviously Anderson Silva is a far more dangerous striker than Tim Sylvia, but the style of fight Sonnen needs to wage to win is very similar to the blueprint Couture laid out.
Unfortunately for Sonnen, that plan hinged on Couture being able to not just hang on the feet, but hurt Sylvia standing which kept Sylvia wary and set up Couture's take down attempts.
Sonnen has established that he's got the mouth to build up heat for a fight -- maybe the most talented fight builder we've seen since Tito Ortiz -- but to win the belt, he'll have to be more like Randy Couture.
202 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
In a three round fight I’d be very tempted to pick Chael as having a good shot as I think he could, in theory, steal a couple rounds. But a 5 rounder is a totally different beast.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 9, 2010 12:32 PM EST reply actions
I agree that a 5 round fight against Silva is much tougher for Chael than a 3 rounder. But IF Chael completely dominated and ground and pounded Anderson for those 3 rounds, that could take Anderson meantally and physically out of the fight and give Chael an even better chance at winning. Of course Chael has to be abe to do tha first of all.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
What Nate left out...
…is that Anderson has a MUCH better submission game than Marquardt, and is just as likely to finish Chael on the ground if that’s where the fight goes.
I wouldn’t pick Chael over Silva in a 1-round fight, and I’m not sure he’s going to make it out of the first round.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Off his back? Anderson gets quite a bit of credit for his guard, but he’s not likely to be pulling off subs from his back, even against Sonnen. That doesn’t mean he can’t finish with a sub like he did against Henderson by hurting Sonnen and then taking his back while Sonnen is stunned.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you
Silva vs. Lutter.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Feb 9, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
And Lutter presumably has better submission defense. I think that when Chael is sitting in Anderson’s guard is probably going to be very dangerous for Chael, but I also think that when he’s coming in will be brutal. I mean, Nate caught him with an brutal uppercut and a knee in the first round when Chael was coming in, and I can only see Anderson scrambling back to his feet faster than Nate. The more takedowns he has to try (5 round fight too) the more chance Anderson has of really catching him. But if it’s not a quick knockout it’ll be a freaking war.
Yes, a fight with a guy who couldn’t make weight and was exhausted, who still managed to mount Silva with ease before running out of gas. Not the best example unless you think Sonnen will come in exhausted from a poor weight cut. Lutter, Marquardt, and even Henderson stayed out of any trouble in Anderson’s guard, and spent much of their time in half guard, with no body triangle to worry about whatsoever.
you forget to mention Silva’s knees problems on the Lutter fight…
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
Don't waste your time
HC is just a guy who loves to crap on everything I say. I’ve never seen anyone manage to have a productive discussion with him. He’s like my own personal BE-stalker.
The funny part is that in his mind I’M the asshole.
Oh wait, I agree…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
omg... this stuff has been discussed ad nauseum
All very moot points since all 3 were hammered and stopped in the next round.
Did you ever think that Anderson gets motivation after these situations you describe, and when he does he then pours it on?
If you don’t want to discuss it, don’t comment on it, and waste everyone’s time with ‘omg’ statements.
And no, the fact that those other instances showed that Anderson’s guard is anything but impenetrable aren’t a moot point at all – it’s precisely the point. If someone is going to claim that Anderson is some submission/elbow/body triangle machine off his back, evidence to the contrary is absolutely relevant. I stated earlier, for those with adequate reading comprehension, that Silva could easily end the fight many other ways. On his back looking for submissions is not going to be where Silva wants to be if he fights Sonnen.
And I'm saying that while OF COURSE he'd like the fight to stay standing...
That he’s not going to spend round after round like Nate did: on his back with his guard closed getting hammered.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Exactly
And I am not convinced that Sonnen will even be able to lock it up. I have watched Andy training a few times in the last year. And no one in the gym could even get a proper shoot or grip on him because of his freakish footwork, timing and positioning(like he did against Griffin). It is just stupid to think that he is not also improving while these contenders are. More than likely he is improving even faster.
I dunno
I’m pretty sure that Sonnen can take him down, being the high level wrestler that he is.
I just see him taking a lot of punishment along the way. And I see him taking even less damage than Nate did – and Nate wasn’t taking much.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
But you forgot something
I can write, within certain limits, what I want to and disagree at will. So, mr moot, your 1st statement is again, moot and has little value or place in the discussion.
2nd, again, these “instances” mean nothing. Criticizing Silvas guard as being sub par is like a bucket full of holes. Because regardless of what you think, none of the top fighters you speak of have been able to capitalize on it. He has been after every fight, unmarked, no lumps, no puffy eyes, no cuts, no bruises while all his opponents have had many. And, I have seen nothing from Sonnen that would suggest he is going to fare any better.
It's true
What I always say to HC (and his ilk) is:
If you have concerns about Silva’s BJJ, please address them in the form of a letter to the Nogueira brothers asking why they give out belts like toys in cereal boxes. If you don’t have the courage of your convictions to do that, shut up and accept that he’s an excellent ground fighter.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I don’t think Chael’s gonna gas during the fighter intros, though.
by asa on Feb 9, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
I see this more like the Irwin fight than the Lutter fight.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Silva could very wellcontrol him with that excellent body triangle, but I’m not seeing him pull ff any subs from his back
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
What short memories they have.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I see where you're coming from
But maybe Chael’s top game seems tighter and less sloppy than Lutter’s.
by asa on Feb 9, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I have to disagree, I think chaels sub defence isn’t very good. I have seen him lose several times to subs,and he also stated that he doesn’t train jj, because it is gay. So I think he either gets knocked out n the first or subed n the second. Silva is the man. Dan Henderson is way better than chael, and we all know how that ended up.
by J smooth 420 on Feb 9, 2010 5:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But what’s he going to do with that top game? Sure, he’s great at holding people down, but a) his sub defense isn’t awesome, and b) his ground and pound is more like tickle and poke.
Meanwhile, Lutter actually has (and had) a very dangerous top game. Ditto Hendo. Likewise Leites. Where did that get any of them?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Oh I think Silva takes a fight against everyone up to and possibly including Brock, I was just replying to the “Short memories” with a reason Chael seems like a tougher challenge than Lutter. I also think Chael has a better smothering top game than Hendo or Leites but less finishing tools than either. That’s enough to win decisions, so I can see how people think he has a chance.
by asa on Feb 9, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions
I just don't see why I didn't get more recs for my awesome wordplay in that one...
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Agreed.
I would almost pick Chael too in a three round fight. He’s not going to be like Hendo and do very little from top position, and I don’t think he’ll need any help in taking Anderson down. I figure he an take Anderson down almost at will. But Anderson could KO Chael as he’s coming in, and he could also submit Chael. He’s done it before off his back.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
He's also beaten Okami
Okami and Marquardt were considered to the top contenders and he beat both of them. He might have even been put in there as highlight reel fodder for both of them.
I’m not a fan of the guy, probably even dislike him for the trash he says.
But he backed up his words with wins and deserves the shot. Its not just his trash talking that got him to this point, its his body of work too.
Okami had a highlight reel finish of Evan Tanner, wouldn’t surprise me if the thought Chael would be the same.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Feb 9, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
true..
but I like his brand of smack talk… What I do hate Mir’s forced, “Me-end-your-career-me-cut-you-up-break-your-bones-make-you-suffer” type of smack talk.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 9, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At the end of the day, trash talk is just that -———- trash.
But I admit to like it being used to build up fights and storylines. The problem I have with Chael is that his talk is composed of ignorant and/or racist stuff, which isn’t really necessary.
Guys like Mir just try to talk tough to opponents, which isn’t the worst thing when you’re fighting someone else.
^this
I agree with that completely (not the Mir part haha) but I’m surprised nobody is calling out Sonnen for being pretty much a racist, saying they would drive Anderosn out of his neghborhood and stuff.
Plus, he’s a total TWO FACE, calling Mark Coleman a bum and then saying in the press conference hes been his fan for ten years, that was some total BS
everyone is calling Chael out.
did you see how nasty the comments section on the last Sonnen post looked like?
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 9, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
noone is callin him a racist
Because silva ISNT EFFIN BLACK hes brazillliiaannnnnnnn jesus. To suppose hes racist would be to imply that all clean cut white republicans who enjoy country music are racist. Maybe some are, but nothing he said even had the undertone of racism.
by Austin Martin on Feb 9, 2010 12:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sarcasm?
Please be sarcasm…
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
If it is, my sarcasm meter needs to be checked.
"For some reason Dana White doesn't like me, and I don't care enough to find out why. So he can go pound sand up his ass as far as I'm concerned."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Feb 9, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, Paul Daley is British?
I just thought he had a lisp or something…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
if anderson is actually an african descendent i’ll change what i’m saying, but those people you mentioned are part african, despite what their country of residence is, while anderson is a very dark skinned brazilian person. that was my point.
by Austin Martin on Feb 9, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
You do realize that “Braziillian” is not a ethnic group and that the nation has a very large contingent of African descendants – a greater percentage than the US – and that Anderson Silva is one of them?
I just don’t understand how some people can think Brazilian is a race, seriously though. How can anyone think that?
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
Puerto Rico
Represent!
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
2010 = the year of Juan Manuel Lopez
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Only thing that’d come to mind is “African American”…only way you could confuse it.
twitter.com/thisredengine
Brazilians are way more easy going. You guys are alright by me. Especially when you start chanting “JiuJitsu!” when you know people out.
twitter.com/thisredengine
Isn’t “jiu jistu” Brazillian for “face punch”?
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Feb 9, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Well, African American would be technically correct for someone from the Americas and who is of African descent.
yeah, I just thought it was funny. Here they are trying to come with that type of political correctness saying ‘Afro-Brasileiros’, I think it’s BS. Should just say black, not African anything, just black.
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
After watching Anderson and Wanderlie
When I meet someone from Brazil the only thing I ask them is that they please don’t beat me up in an aesthetically pleasing manner.
There's nothing aesthetically pleasing about a Wanderlei beatdown.
Unless you have pictures of TruckZilla and John Wayne Gacy on your walls.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I don’t know, his knees to the head and foot stomps to the face are some of the most aesthetically pleasing knees to the head and foot stomps to the face that I have ever seen.
So which TruckZilla posters do you have?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
No.
Anderson Silva is African-Northest South American. Kongo is African-West mainland European. Paul Daley is African-islands off of European.
It’s not that hard.
he said nothing racist...
if anything he sounded more homophobic than racist.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 9, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, if he’s just being homophobic I guess there’s nothing to get worked up about.
by John Nash on Feb 9, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You can think that all you want...
But even borderline racist comments in the culture of combative sports have always been allowed to simmer.
Look at Ricardo Mayorga.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Feb 9, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I haven’t read enough Chael interviews but I havent seen anything racist from him
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I don't get the racist thing....
did he say he hated minorities?
by Zou want a piece? on Feb 9, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I thought he was saying Anderson isn’t man enough to live in his neighborhood.
by Zou want a piece? on Feb 9, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
He’s a smart guy, and he doesn’t ever come out and say anything too extreme. And really, who knows what he thinks, I’m sure what he says is just calculated controversy that can have multiple meanings. In order voice all the meanings that are interpreted, we have to discuss them. Hence the explosion of Chael Sonnen.
A smart guy would recognize that talk of chasing somebody out of town reeks of lynch mobs.
And that’s definitely a racist thing.
You can’t have it both ways: either he’s an idiot who doesn’t know what he’s saying or he’s a smart racist. I’m gonna go with a, but feel free to pick b.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Feb 9, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Racism is a scale that starts at stereotypes and ends at lynching.
We have no idea where he is on this scale, and we all have positions on it. What we do know is that he’s made statements to the effect of he doesn’t like the clothes Anderson Silva wears or the way he wears them. This style, which is urban, has a connection with black people. So people infer that because he believes that Anderson Silva would not last 12 minutes in his neighborhood it is because he is black, not because of the style of his clothes. That choice is the interpreter’s to make.
And for the record, I believe that, while he may be nearer to the middle of the scale than most people, to arbitrarily draw a line at some point in the scale and say: “Everything beyond here is racist”, and then to place Chael Sonnen in that group due to our own inferences is unfair.
He is a smart man who speaks his mind, and debate arises! I personally think it’s very stimulating. I don’t always agree with him but that’s impossible with anybody.
by verloc on Feb 9, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Bull.
Nobody with an eye on politics talks about chasing a black man out of town without thinking of the racial undertones. To say otherwise is to suggest that he’s an idiot.
You simply cannot have it both ways.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
What if a majority of constituents in his riding are people who deep down agree with the sentiments he expressed? Sure, on the surface maybe you could generate some moral outrage, but an alternative explanation exists and it’s quite possible that his constituents would see themselves in him. He has to get elected locally before he can get elected on a bigger stage, and even if it gets brought up he can call it 1: fight hype, because fighting is a business or 2 : A comment on his fashion sense.
Honesty, since now the debate has turned to whether he was smart or not, I don’t really know how smart he is. But what I will say is that his statements are, in themselves, not a political disaster.
He said that he wears pink shirts and has ear rings. Not racist, just closed minded. But people are getting super close to fighter bashing when discussing Sonnen.
twitter.com/thisredengine
The "Se habla espanol" line was worse.
It’s not one thing he’s said but a number of slightly off comments that paint a picture, especially when you consider where he’s from. I’m not ready to say he’s a racist, but we would be foolish to ignore all the things he’s said.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, but as I’m saying, these discussions are hitting that grey area of fighter bashing. Is he pushing the line? Yep. Has he crossed it yet? No. To call the man a racist or homophobe has nothing to do with his talents as a fighter and instead is judgements of his character. People have been banned for less and I’m surprised the mods have let this go on as long as it has.
I’m not accusing you by the way, just pointing out that people are reaaaaaally close to crossing that line.
twitter.com/thisredengine
agreed. people are taking what chael has said in an out of context way and are running with it, such a surprise for the interwebz
by Austin Martin on Feb 9, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
We have no evidence he’s a racist. He might just be running his mouth and accidentally saying things which can be misconstrued while not caring about the PC police; a very typical trait of conservatives like him. That’s not an insult btw, it’s part of the culture. But to say that speculation on his character based on things he’s publicly said is potentially bannable isn’t really conducive to conversation that I feel should be taking place.
Again, I agree with you, calling him a racist is premature. But I’m particularly sensitive, having been the victim of race related violence before. Just because Chael hasn’t crossed any lines doesn’t mean we shouldn’t note that his toes are getting close to it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
It really is something to notice that the hyper-sensitive politically correct culture of pointing fingers at everything that might losely have something to do with race is racist—even as prevalent on something like MMA sites. It’s like, if you’re white you can’t even disagree or dislike someone’s style if they’re a person of colour. It’s freaking ridiculous how out to lunch people are on racism.
The guy said that he’d be run out of his neighbourhood because he wears his hat sideways and wears pink shirts! And there is a huge freaking difference between a black brazillian and an African American (in the US). The cultures and stigmas are completely different.
There’s no such thing as “sort of racist”, or “just a little bit racist”. Racism has no nuance, you either feel disdain for someone based on their colour or culture or you don’t. Borderline racist comments are what, anything that a white man says to person of colour that isn’t loaded with guilt and sorrow for someone else’s hateful state of mind that isn’t even alive anymore?
Sorry I might have gotten carried away, but dammit the politically correct movement feels so totally out to lunch to me I had to vent.
by Dooda on Feb 9, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
There are a lot more emotions than disdain you can feel towards somebody that would still be considered racist. Racism has a great deal of nuance; stereotypes are a form of racism when they are applied against races. Unfortunately, humans cannot escape stereotypes so we are all a little racist. It’s how you understand how you feel about the other person that is important, and always acting with the best intentions.
Other than that, I completely agree that the PC culture has developed a culture of silence about these topics, and it’s very good to discuss them openly.
Okay sure, but in this context, we’re talking about a general feeling of ill-will towards people of colour, not the compartmentalizing of stereo-types. I mean, you can almost say anything is borderline racist if it has something to do with race.
For example, my Polynesian friend says that I have a pointy nose and he has a flat nose. Is that racist? Would I be racist if I said he has a flat nose?
A general ill will towards people of colour is in fact prefering yourself and those like you over everybody else, so that’s xenophobic or communitarian. I could see calling him a little xenophobic maybe.
But, as I said in a post above, racism is a scale that starts at stereotypes (black people are good basketball players) and ends at lynch mobs.
You are not racist when you say that that your Polynesian friend has a flat nose, but you are just a little bit ‘racist’ when you say that all polynesians have flat noses. You are taking one case and making it true for all, and once you start that it’s only a scale from that to all black people must die. We all do this! It’s a matter of understanding how we feel and having the best intentions.
I got you. And you’re right. But wouldn’t that technically just be a comment that is born of ignorance? I mean any statement could be disproven at some point. His cousin has a pointy nose because there’s an Irishman in his line somewhere. So is it racist, or is it just ignorance? I mean, doesn’t the term racist, as our culture denotes it (not the definition of scientifically dissecting the word) need to have some kind of disdain or hatred towards it? I mean if someone who you know that isn’t hateful makes an ill-informed yet innocent statement that involves race, would you think of it as a racist statement?
Absolutely. Ignorance plays a HUGE part in racism, because we can never really know anything about anything, so all we do is guess, and some of those guesses are wrong. Stereotypes are those things that help us guess, and that’s why we will always have them. But once again, that implies we’re all ignorant too, to varying degrees.
Society has acknowledged the presence of a line on the racism scale and implies everything beyond this point on the scale is ‘racist’. The problem is the location of that line is in an open question for everybody, constantly shifting. When somebody makes a comment that everybody agrees is on the bad end of the scale, we all react in revulsion because we are told the act is bad (of course, in this case, the act is often very bad). The problem here is a question of the location of that ‘racist’ line.
Okay but there’s obviously a difference between being ignorant and being racist then. Two different things. So what in the two make them different. What does a racist comment have that an ignorant comment doesn’t have?
While a racist comment is typically born out of ignorance and fear etc, an ignorant comment isn’t necessarily so, but you seem to imply that any ignorant comment is at least a little bit racist. My point is that it mostly boils down to how and who the person is that says it. If Chael says the guy wears hats crooked and pink T-shirt he’d get run out of my neighbourhood, it’s not racist, but because the guy he was talking about is a person of colour, it’s sort of racist. I guess I’m saying, it’s only racist if the guy saying it feels something towards the person and that feeling derives from race. Maybe?
To me, racism is the reaction of a mind that is ignorant about race and racial issues but has convinced itself it is not. These holes are filled most often with benign stereotypes but can also be filled with more vile material. These cases, where the ignorance masked as knowledge becomes vitriolic are those that help us to define the location of the racist line. So a racist comment is a subset of ignorant comments; there is nothing a racist comment has that an ignorant comment doesn’t also have. Also there are many ignorant comments that are not racist.
I see what you’re saying about the PC nature of it being racist because Silva is black. I agree that the only way to know whether Chael made an objectively racist statement is to know what’s going on in his head, but I’ll go you one better. It not only boils down the the actual people involved but we are a key interpreter as well! We can’t know what Chael is thinking, so we project what we think he’s thinking onto him, and if we automatically pick racism without considering other options we’re in fact stereotyping guys like Chael as racist! Slipperly slope my friend! It’s only racist because we think it’s racist!
Doesn’t that fall into the whole mirroring thing? What we rail against the most is actually us projecting what is inside of us out onto the world?
I’ve always thought this about the politically correct culture. A lot of it is guilt and fear of being labelled a racist, and thus the need to call others racist, or at least the harbingers of racist comments.
There are certainly cases of mirroring; people who have covered their vitriolic ignorance with a benign ignorance because they know that their repressed beliefs are not acceptable in society. As you say, they often fly off the handle at racist statements because somewhere deep down they know they’re lying. But not everybody who flies off the handle is a closet racist, most are just plain ignorant!
Some aspects of PC culture are bad because they discourage discussion. The PC method of dealing with problems is one solution for all problems, ’don’t say anything overtly discriminatory’. The problem is that the real questions and real issues people are having require discussion in order to be resolved.
So we're down to deciding if Sonnen is an ignorant racist or just plain ignorant?
I’m gonna go with: screw him either way.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Yeah, speak for yourself buddy.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
There's a spectrum between ignorant and knowing everything.
I can see where you fall on that spectrum pretty clearly.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I don’t understand. I say we’re all ignorant, you say speak for yourself, I say ok, obviously you claim you’re not ignorant. You back away from your claim with insults, and what’s more you use my example of the spectrum of ignorance. You are offering nothing interesting to the discussion other than disagreement.
Maybe instead of being a proud liberal you should be a proud thinker. That way you won’t be stuck with your anger and no way to properly express it.
Dude, I'm just tired of your crap.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
To see how long you'll keep posting.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Finally, you're right about something.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
“There’s no such thing as "sort of racist", or "just a little bit racist". Racism has no nuance, you either feel disdain for someone based on their colour or culture or you don’t.”
dude you are wrong. I live in freaking NM born in Texas. I’m white. I had so many racist shit told to me from illegal immigrants it’s unreal. But at the other end of the coin alot of my ex girlfriends are Hispanic. It’s fucking complicated but I hope I made I point there. lol
So how was the racist stuff said to you only sort of racist as opposed to completely racist?
And my point is, if someone is racist (ie: They feel hate towards someone based on cultural or physical effect) they either are or they’re not. If you see someone and judge them based on something other than their character, you’re racist. Sonnen is just saying Silva’s style wouldn’t fly in his neighbourhood. Unless I completely missed something.
A woman switching her purse to the other shoulder when passing a black dude
is completely different than putting on a hood and robe. It’s not cut and dry as you are saying.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I see what you’re saying, and you’re right. Oddly, I believe that too. I guess I was just thinking that a borderline racist comment doesn’t really exist. It’s either racist or it’s not. It either comes from a place of disdain and hate, or it doesn’t. But yeah, nothing is as clear cut as that, so I’ll just slowly retreat back into my cave.
Haha, fair enough.
I think the distinction you have been missing is that some people hate, others are ignorant, and others are fearful. A woman switching her purse over is fearful and ignorant, but not hateful. A Klan member is hateful and ignorant, but rarely fearful. Some people avoid hispanic neighborhoods because they simply fear.
Again, still I’m simplifying, but that’s the basis of my thinking.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
I sort of disagree. Hate is nearly always derived from some sort of fear. The most macho hateful dude is chalked full of fear. Not visibly so and not necessarily connected directly with the object of their hatred, but it’s usually connected with a fear of being wrong, a fear of what they’ll find if they confront themselves, examine what it is that makes them hate etc. Ignorance and fear in conjunction are usually a recipe for some kind of hatred. But alas, we’ve strayed and it appears we’ve bored some people. I however have enjoyed this little discussion.
Alright I’m back in. Everybody can type all kinds of fancy theories and this and that but I’m the only person on this thread that has almost 200 posts who gave a real account of racism. Give me another long ass paragraph about why that is lol. That is the difference between living it and theorizing about it.
I’m not saying I think it’s racist, but there are fans who did believe it was. That’s mainly the problem they have with it.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Feb 9, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Mir’s brand of smack-talk is elitist to a sickening level.
It’s like….
Mir: I’ll break your arm, then eat caviar off your lifeless body
He just sounds like he’s above everyone in a very prestigious way.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Feb 9, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
It’s kinda corny and forced really. I find it annoying…
Now Chael, King Mo, and the like, sell fights well without going to Mir levels of cheesy. Did you see Koscheck’s tweets to Tito Ortiz? epic.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 9, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
I missed those tweets!
Were they in one of your Hows Taste?
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Feb 9, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
If Anderson beats Vitor, expect another phantom injury that keeps going away and coming back.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Feb 9, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, because Sonnen is so scary. He’s gonna control the shit out of you with his wrestling…
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
He did a little more than “control” Nate. I don’t believe for one second Anderson is scared of Chael, but a loss is a loss and ground & pound hurts. I don’t think Anderson wants either.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Yeah he did a little bit here and there with his “GnP”. I’m just surprised with all the love Chael gets. Jake Schields took a lot of shit after his fight with Mayhem. I guess the difference is that Schields isn’t as eloquent as Sonnen…
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
interesting point
though shields just put on a rolling session against mayhem, didn’t ever try to unload some GnP. he passed guard, took the back, and worked lots of transitions, but never really took advantage of gaining dominant position, whereas Sonnen was punching and elbowing the whole time. you’re right about Sonnen getting a bit too much love tho.
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
it might have something to do with the fact that he landed around double the strikes in two less rounds
Yeah, especially those arm punches when he had Nate’s back. Those were really damaging punches, UFC should blur that part of the fight on the DVD’s.
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, those are punches while he was on Nate’s back was for less than a minute. You’re defining his whole performance based on that? What about all the strikes he landed to the face and kindeys while in the full guard?
No. Are you defining his performance based on quantity of strikes?
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Those are the stats for the Shields-Miller fight. Shields threw 141 strikes over five rounds. He attempted zero submissions, despite being a supposed BJJ specialist.
Sonnen threw 238 strikes…in three rounds. Sonnen averaged around 80 strikes per round. Shields averaged 28. That’s why people liked the Sonnen-Marquardt fight and thought the Shields-Miller fight was pretty boring. Shields did nothing but hold Miller down for most of the fight.
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry man, didn’t notice it wasn’t you. Pardon…
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not defining it by that, but it’s the easiest way to rebut someone making a ridiculous argument comparing this fight to shield’s last fight, especially who put “GnP” in quotes.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked that fight.
And Shields and Sonnen fights are not THAT close, but they also aren’t that far away from each other like the comments suggest…
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Or the difference is that Shields didn’t do anything useful with his dominant position.
http://compustrike.com/stats_files/strikeforce_11_7/Shields-Miller.HTM
Those are the stats for the Shields-Miller fight. Shields threw 141 strikes over five rounds. He attempted zero submissions, despite being a supposed BJJ specialist.
http://compustrike.com/stats_files/ufc_109/Marquardt-Sonnen.HTM
Sonnen threw 238 strikes…in three rounds. Sonnen averaged around 80 strikes per round. Shields averaged 28. That’s why people liked the Sonnen-Marquardt fight and thought the Shields-Miller fight was pretty boring. Shields did nothing but hold Miller down for most of the fight.
So, like the 11th fastest dude Silva will ever face?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 9, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
chael is the PERFECT matchup
In terms of marketability, styles, the fact hes never been koed- whether hes goin to win or not who knows, but everyone likes anderson more and chael is gonna charge right at him and bring the fight. It could end in 15 seconds or go all 5. The point is, he brings so much to the table that past challengers havent, and unlike griffin, chael has an actual elite skillset that anderson doesnt have that enables him to win fights. I dont see how anyone could have a gripe with this fight should it happen, itll be entertaining as all hell
by Austin Martin on Feb 9, 2010 1:01 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I won't gripe at all if it happens
But there is no way Chael comes into this fight anything but a huge and rightful underdog. His only path to victory consists in laying on top of Anderson for 25 minutes throwing weak elbows and rabbit punches.
He stands no chance throwing punches at a distance, and possibly even less chance if he is stupid enough to try to work greco/dirty boxing against Anderson’s brutal thai clinch. I see Silva using those “long legs” to bury a few dozen knees in Chael’s mug on the way to first or second round TKO.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
the thing is though, i don’t think we’d see the same chael in a title fight. Im guessin that he’d realize he would have to grind out 3 rounds of that for a win, and silva is too dangerous. Once you get to the title game, all bets are off and you can stop playing it safe. i really think he took a smart, safe gameplan to the nate fight.
by Austin Martin on Feb 9, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Right, but at no point has he shown that he has the skill set to radically change his fighting style. And he certainly hasn’t shown that he has the skill set to finish a quality opponent. I think if he tries to drastically change his approach, he’ll only lose faster.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
he definately showed improved striking in the okami fight. I’m not saying he’ll alter his style completely, but i don’t think he’ll play it so safe.
by Austin Martin on Feb 9, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
A huge underdog
…sort of like in the Okami and Marquardt fights?
by HarmlessNinja on Feb 9, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Correction:
Chael says he was KOed on Saturday. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
He also said that Maia KOed him with hammer fist from the bottom, that’s the reason he was submitted so easily…
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah,
Anderson will eat him alive.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Regardless of the most likely outcome of Silva winning...
… this is the first Silva fight since Hendo that I’m really interested in, and it’s all because of what I hope Chael “I don’t do guard” Sonnen says about Silva. It’ll be a very, very amusing run-up to the fight. Of course, now in order to see it, I have to root for Silva to beat Belfort. :)
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
By fight time, Silva will be motivated to teach Sonnen a lesson
And remember. Henderson had a reputation as an iron chinned grinder. In fact I would say he is far better at it then Sonnen. And after warming up in the 1st round, Silva put on a striking clinic that had Henderson on queer street and turning his back for an easy RNC. Also, much has happened since then. I have seen some of Silva work outs last year and as you could see in the Griffin fight. He is using timing, positioning and footwork to avoid takedowns. So making the assumption that there will be a takedown is just that, an assumption. Im not so sure Sonnen is fast enough to lock one up before getting stung on his feet.
It’s a lot easier to visualize Chael’s face bloodied and crying as Spider shimmies in front of his face, then to imagine Chael controlling Anderson for 5 rounds, but weirder things could happen I guess.
I’m interested in seeing how Anderson exploits Chael’s homophobia though. Maybe stuff a take-down and then move his pelvis around? I’m willing to bet that would really get Sonnen’s goat.
You write, "To be honest, it would be a monumental feat for someone with Sonnen’s style to beat Anderson Silva. "
That’s not true. A determined wrestler like Chael stands a very good chance of winning:
1. Silva’s take down defense is at best mediocre. Leites was able to take him down a couple times, Lutter was successful on 3 or 4 take downs, Hendo, Marquardt, Newton, Chonin, etc. all took him down. None of these people (a 39 year old Hendo included) is as good a take down artist as Sonnen. Silva will not be able to control where the fight goes, so he must either knock Sonnen out (he only needs a small opening although Sonnen has been finished just once in the past four years) or submit him off his back, which leads me to my next point.
2. Many posters somehow seem to have acquired the dubious belief that Silva has elite BJJ skills off his back. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure he’d school 99% of BJJ practitioners out there (if you include all belt levels). Nevertheless Silva has not submitted anyone off his back. He used a triangle choke to submit Lutter from elbows. There was no way in a million years Silva could have finished the choke given that Lutter’s right arm was pressing against his head. Also Lutter basically fell into that sub after eating an up kick. It wasn’t as though Silva was controlling his posture and arms and set that choke up in a more conventional way. It was a good finish nonetheless but not a submission finish. Silva’s finishing Hendo via RNC is almost completely irrelevant to any discussion of how good he is off his back (obviously) because he set the RNC by blasting Hendo (who also appeared to be gassing). Awesome finish but not indicative of how he’d perform off his back against Chael, whom he has exactly zero chance of sweeping or achieving any sort of dominant position against unless he first hurts him (which is of course a distinct possibility).
3. Finally Anderson is not good at creating scrambles and getting back to his feet. He was seriously being controlled in the mount by Newton and Lutter before each went for sloppy arm bars and gave up the position. His best hope of getting the fight to its feet seems to be to stall by utilizing a body triangle. His body triangle is effective but obviously permits him zero opportunity to finish the fight off his back. Sonnen spent nearly the entire fight in Marquardt’s guard and managed to keep busy enough to avoid even getting a warning (from what I recall). Silva will be in for a long night if his plan for fighting Sonnen was to merely to stall and hope for a reset.
4. Silva’s ability to sustain several rounds of punishment from a high level wrestler and not gas is obviously a question mark. I’ve never seen him look tired so I assume his conditioning is pretty good, although he’s fought exactly one “wrestler” since coming to the UFC and that wrestler is much more of a brawler than wrestler; however, is it good enough to take a sustained beating for several rounds? Who knows? Nate looked like he was seriously fatigued about 1/2 through the second round.
5. Despite what many think, Silva’s chances of landing a fight ending knee are very low. He’s done it once in his career and obviously failed to do it numerous times, despite being taken down quite a bit (especially for someone who hasn’t fought competent wrestlers). Sonnen can obviate this risk by simply pressing Silva against the cage and then going for a take down. There’s no need to shoot double leg take downs from 8 ft out.
Nevertheless, Chael has never demonstrated that he has the highest fight IQ and Silva, since he’s a ninja on his feet, needs a very slim opening to hurt and finish Sonnen. I think Silva’s got to open at (depending on what happens with Belfort) around a -500 favoritie. I’d take Sonnen at about +150.
by The Darkness on Feb 9, 2010 2:07 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
uhmmm . . . good points all around. I guess it is good that Chael Sonnen has made a great argument for himself as an opponent via talk and performance. It is incredibly great that many fans think Chael has the tools and chance of dethroning Anderson Silva. If the champ manages to get by Belfort this fight then Silva vs. Sonnen may actually get a lot of hype.
I’m just wondering how Sonnen will close the distance in the first minute of the fight, because Silva just backpedals but that jab is very sick.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 9, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Good question. I obviously don’t have the answer but that won’t stop me from shamelessly speculating about how he might do it:
There’s many ways to do this; I would guess that one of the most effective is to simply fake a shot, get Silva to react and set his feet and then go straight to the clinch and work for a take down. (GSP is very good at this and there’s no reason Chael can’t use it effectively). To land powers shots (he’s not going to finish Sonnen with a jab) Silva will need to set his feet; in doing so, he’ll make himself more vulnerable to a take down or clinch attempt.
In general, I think people are assigning far too high a probability to Sonne’s getting “caught” when he’s coming in for a shot or to clinch with Silva. As discussed above, Silva’s only finished one person (who was shooting in on him) with a knee his entire career but been taken down quite a bit, which implies the odds of a flying knee knockout are very low. Moreover although Silva has very good power, he’s never demonstrated that he hsa one strike finishing power. Excellent, tough wrestlers are capable of powering through a punch or knee (even if it might drop them) by simply falling forward and grabbing a single (e.g., Velasquez) or simply completing their shot (e.g., Edgar and Lesnar). Even if he catches Sonnen, it’s unlikely he’ll knock him out and there’s no guarantee he’ll be able to keep him from finishing a take down.
I’m making the case for Sonnen but I could just as easily spin this for Anderson, whom I’d still favor to win. I just think that Anderson will be a far larger favorite (if they fight) than he should be.
I haven’t ever really seen Silva plant his feet but it is worth a try.
That’s the thing, Silva does not have that one-punch KO power however . . . his shots must hurt because he’s put a hurting on two guys with pretty much solid chins. Leben has demonstrated an ability to take punishment except when he faced Silva. The only guy to stop him via TKO. Henderson doesn’t get stopped too often, but Silva found a way. With that said, I question Sonnen’s power. He had his way with Marquardt in a great position but could not put him away. Henderson’s top game against Silva provided little to no visible damage.
Every fight is different, I would forget about the incoming knees because there may be something else. I think Sonnen’s recover ability against Nate Marquardt was remarkable but I just think Silva did more than live up to Rogan’s hype about being a different kind of striker. While many fans may be impressed with Marquardt’s striking I just see a guy who try to use some tricks like the spinning backfist and superman punch but offers little to no creativity. Silva is in another league and very unpredictable.
It would be cool to see Sonnen and Silva clinch up . . . what would happen? Would Sonnen trip Silva and fall into his guard or would Silva control Sonnen’s neck and proceed to punish his opponent?
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 9, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Something I haven’t seen many people mention, is Sonnen’s cardio, it is vasty underrated in my opinion and worth mentioning. To keep getting the takedowns and hitting Marquardt for pretty much the whole 15 mins requires crazy cardio, and he managed it. The bit where Marquardt went for a takedown and immediately Sonnen reversed it was very impressive, to have the strength to do that is impressive
Good point. I completely agree. Off the top of my head I can’t think of anyone at MW who seems to have better or similar cardio than or to Sonnen (a-train? rosholt? After his fight with NM, I’d have to give Sonnen the edge.). What makes his performance even more impressive cardio-wise is that he probably lost around a 1/2 pint of blood during the match. To Silva’s credit, he’s never looked tired to me although going 5 rounds with a BJJ specialist that doesn’t want to engage with you isn’t the most useful measuring stick for cardio. Nevertheless Silva seems to have a lot of less tangible qualities that make him so successful — I think his ability to prepare himself extremely well for his opponent is one of them.
I’d say A-train has better cardio. He received a lot of punishment in his last fight and was still fighting at a incredible pace.
by dancingChicken on Feb 9, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in the minority here...
I don’t know if anyone else feels this way, but I just don’t care about Sonnen. At all. I find his personality to be repellant and contrived; his fight style – while impressive – not particularly enjoyable to watch (in that it’s very predictable); and the stupid shit that swirls around him now that he’s “trying to be interesting” to be boring, low-brow, at times embarassing, and ultimately distracting from far more interesting conversations. I don’t even dislike him enough to want to see him lose, like the way some people feel about Brock Lesnar. I just want him to shut up and go away. He comes across as ignorant, arrogant, and totally unjustified in some of his comments. If he faces off against Anderson Silva, I expect him to lose, and honestly I wouldn’t find the matchup intruiging on any level. It seems to me that the hype wagon has blown up ridiculously fast essentially because Sonnen is a really good troll. I have no time for trolls, not even enough to see them lose. I almost never post comments on “Chael Sonnen posts” (how do we even have enough of these that it’s a category!?!) in any serious capacity, and this will probably one of my only times doing so. And I kinda feel dirty for doing it.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Feb 9, 2010 2:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
He's overhyped
for killing the contendership of the two people who everyone was saying deserved title shots? Beating two top 3 middleweights in a row? And we still all say he doesn’t have a good shot at beating Anderson… so much hype!
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 9, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
The thing to remember about Anderson
Is that on top of being lanky and technical, he’s big and strong. He throws around Light Heavyweights. Sonnen’s a big strong guy, but he may not even have as much power as Anderson.

by 















