Sonnen over Anderson? Not really (now with flowchart!)
It's Sonnen fever out there, folks.
Usually I like to take my time with a fanpost, as it's a great medium to really dig through some deeper MMA question that's been bothering me. On the matter of Chael Sonnen as a legitimate challenger to Anderson, I don't really think that's required. I'm gonna keep it short and sweet, though I've included a lengthy infographic to further my point.
Here is my rough argument for why I think the "Sonnen will upset Anderson" hype is completely inflated. Let's bullet this out:
- Chael Sonnen made a resounding, impressive argument on Saturday for the continuing relevance of the Tito/Yushin/Hughes archetype - the "ground control" wrestling gameplan (as opposed to sprawl-and-brawl, which seems to be the current trend for fighters with a strong wrestling base). Everyone was hyped on the evolution of Nate Marquardt into something new and exciting at 185, and it hardly even seemed plausible going in that such a frankly old-fashioned approach would pay the dividends it did. This made the upset amazing to watch.
- A lot of folks are applying this same picture to Anderson's past follies in the UFC octagon. Specifically that Lutter and Hendo gave Anderson fits on the ground at some point in their fights. There's a very, very important key difference between Lutter/Henderson and Sonnen though. And I don't mean this as a slight to Sonnen, but... these other two have the threat of a finish.
- Lutter is a threat with submissions. Hendo drops anvils on people. Chael Sonnen, simply put, doesn't finish fights at this level of competition. I know everybody has their time, and Sonnen does own his share of stoppage victories. But if you'll forgive me for going all FightFinder on everybody, in Chael Sonnen's entire Zuffa career (WEC and UFC) he's never won by stoppage. He said it himself a couple different ways in interviews. Specifically that he thinks it's a sign of weakness that people want to end a fight early, and that he quite openly didn't have the striking power to put Nate Marquardt away.
- There's almost nobody who can claim to be a more dangerous, sophisticated or diverse opportunist in the history of MMA than Anderson Silva. In each one of his fights, the same plotline happens; Anderson feels out opponent for the first minute. Opponent, with varying degrees of success, makes his case. Anderson, if significantly threatened, grabs a single opportunity and parlays it into a fight-ending stoppage. If not, well, there will be boos. I actually wrote a whole flow chart to support this, which I've included below. Having some trouble getting it to format to show up in the post, so you'll want to click on the thumbnail and view separately to get the legible version (hit me up in comments if you know how I should fix this).
- To the above, what I mean is basically this; the Sonnen-Anderson matchup, while seemingly compelling from a style-vs-style perspective, is in fact terrible for Sonnen based on his track record of securing stoppages. Anderson needs but a split second to put his opponent into fight-ending danger, and nobody finds ways to do this as creatively as Anderson. Sonnen can win this fight in the 25th minute of the encounter, and that's it. Minutes 1-24 of the fight can only go to Silva, even if he's on his back (I strongly believe that Sonnen has none of the guard-passing ability to put Anderson out on the ground). This means at least 5 times in the fight where Sonnen has to risk the hands of Anderson, EVEN if he comes out and shoots immediately. If you've seen Sonnen's standup, and if you've seen Anderson's striking, that puts the fight pretty strongly in the Brazillian's corner.
-But for further fun, play it out in the flowchart! Envision a fight that loops continually through clinch, takedown attempt and scramble, with Anderson having an opportunity to unload everything he's got every time we hit the "scramble" and "clinch" portions. This is the danger of fighting a guy like him, who can solidly connect in less-than-optimum conditions on the feet. "Laser-beam accuracy" in the words of Rogan. I know it's just a sketch (and some of these results don't match perfectly), but I'm just sayin'. If we assume Anderson brings his strengths convincingly, and Sonnen does the same, it's a bad night unless Sonnen breaks out of his proven comfort zone.
As always, I'm really just looking to start a conversation here. So agree or disagree, hit me up the comments, I'd love to hear your take. Thanks for reading.
Also: for reference, here's a previous fanpost featuing my attempt to pop the hood on some Spider-psychology following the Leites fight, and how he responds to a truly threatening style matchup.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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recd nice chart
but Im in an antisocial mood so no talky.
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!
I LOL'ed..
Well done… :)
Valid and honest points.. I don’t buy into the Sonnen hype either.. He’s no more a threat than Henderson was. Henderson is the better wrestler and FAR better striker..
People tend to forget that Anderson is deceptively strong for such a lean frame. The guy spars with JDS, Nog brothers, etc..
Sonnen brings nothing to the table to “really” threaten Silva with.. What’s he going to do, take him down and lay on him for 25 minutes ? Silva may let it ride for a round.. But he’ll eventually get back to his feet and blast Sonnen coming in, just like he did to Hendo and it’s lights out for Sonnen..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
by MMAuthority on Feb 8, 2010 9:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Sonnen is a way better wrestler than Hendo.
we’ll freestyle anyway; Hendo is the better Greco guy
"And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine patris, et filii...et spiritus sancti."
by KingAtRock on Feb 8, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL..
Sonnen is a Greco Roman wrestler…lol
I guess you forgot that much ??
He was an Olympic alternate in Greco Roman..
Hendo made the Olypic team and won a medal in Greco Roman..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Um..like I said Hendo is the better Greco guy. Chael is a 2 time NCAA freestyle champ and an Olympic Greco alternate. Dan is a one time NCAA finalist and Greco competitor.
"And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine patris, et filii...et spiritus sancti."
by KingAtRock on Feb 8, 2010 10:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Henderson never medaled. You’re thinking of Matt Lindland.
by JRN on Feb 9, 2010 5:15 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah.. I was thinking Linland.. Oops..
I know Hendo got medals in the Pan Am tournaments.. But I was thinking of Lindland getting Olympic medals..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
that chart is awsome.
i’m a big A.Silva fan and I agree that Sonnen has 0 finishing power, but I could still see it being a competitive fight for at least 2 or 3 rounds.
"And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine patris, et filii...et spiritus sancti."
A fine case made
but this fight boils down to exactly one question. Can Anderson get off his back after the take down. If he can’t, the fight may very well play out just like the Marquardt/Sonnen fight. If not, well… night, night Chael.
Sonnen also has to avoid being subbed for 25 minutes.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
Anderson Silva is just not a subs off the back kind of guy
I’ll really be stunned if that’s how this fight ends.
Terrific work. Fun, accurate, and your precision is so precise.
There’s just one problem…“[Chael isn’t] fighting on paper, ladies and gentlemen.”
unfortunately for Chael
neither is Anderson
by CaptainSpaulding on Feb 9, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Great Post.
Silva would definitely be a huge favorite against Sonnen, and rightly so. However, I do think Sonnen’s as good a challenge as anyone else out there for Anderson. If he can keep from getting knocked out, he can take Anderson down. There aren’t many who can stand with Silva and expect to win, so the ground is the best bet if only by default. I absolutely love to watch Maia, but at this point is his career I think he’d sustain far too much damage in the pursuit of a takedown vs. Silva. On the other hand, despite the fact that Sonnen hasn’t been able to finish and has a tendency to get caught in submissions, his ability to take a fight from the standing position to the mat is absolutely top notch.
Also, I believe Sonnen has improved his sub defense and striking though they’re still liabilities for him against high level fighters. Maybe, we shouldn’t get too high on Sonnen, but I do believe he’s at least earned consideration for a title shot.
The thing about Sonnen
like everyone is saying, really is just woefully poor at finishing. And although his GnP & wrestling are fantastic, they diminish greatly by the end of a 3 round fight; I really wonder how he would fare in a 5 rounder, against a proven finisher like Anderson, who is just so dangerous from all positions.
Also, Andy is very good at controlling distance and making guys pay for sloppy shots. He very well could catch Chael mid- shot with a knee. The few brief moments Marquardt & Sonnen were standing, Nate was able to land good shots; shots that, from Anderson, would be much more intense & repeated. Then comes the issue of Sonnen’s tragic pitfall- his submission defense. Anderson has shown that he’s quite dangerous, and very good defensively off his back; Chael very well could fall straight into a triangle. The icing on the cake here is Anderson’s improved TDD; he stuffed Hendo in the 2’nd round of their fight, and the 1 time he got taken down by Leites he got back up almost immediately.
The fact of the matter is, Anderson has so many outlets to finish the fight that Chael’s chances of going the distance of 25 minutes is slim.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
Flying
Scissor
Heel hook
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
by midwestbred on Feb 9, 2010 9:17 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
woulda been cool to see that in there
somewhere… :P
I might be wrong, but
shouldn’t Hendo be under “OR JUST SUBMIT SOME DUDE” along with WTFLUTTER’d?
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Feb 9, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions
no, you're right...
but really I feel like it was set up by the shots he landed when Hendo was on the ground (Dan would later say he didn’t remember any of what happened past that point). Sort of like: from there i’d just apply the general umbrella of “beatdown happening on the mat”
you are totally correct though, if we’re considering that lutter technically submitted from elbow strikes rather than triangle choke, in many ways this is in fact the truer “sub” on his record.
by LBo on Feb 9, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
"Explain muay thai plum in morse code via face"
OR just submit some dude!
Too funny.
Get rid of the ramp!
Cute
Hell, I am a new fan of Chael, but if he had 5 rounds to beat on Nate there were only two possible endings to the fight. Either the ref would step in and anounce Chael the winner or Chael would beat on Nate for two more rounds. It is time for a new king, and we might have found him. Chael has been shouting at the top of his lungs that it is his turn to try to pull the sword from the stone, but now its his time and what will he do?
Let’s keep in mind that this guy is coming from the same school of grinding wrestling as Randy Couture (and Dan Henderson, and Matt Lindland).
It wasn’t too long ago that Team Quest was a unified camp up in Portland with all these heavy hitters up there. It’s splintered now, but Chael actually showed that he has what it takes to be a dominant wrestler. I don’t see why Chael couldn’t pull out a 5 round grind (ala Couture vs Ortiz or Sylvia) if he showed up in shape. Anderson’s weak(er) spot has always been his wrestling, and I’m not really confident about his amazing submissions off his back against non-Lion’s Den opponents.
I’ve picked against Anderson before and regretted it, but top-level wrestlers have a way of nullifying everyone’s game. He faced one before in Dan Henderson, and was actually losing the fight, until Hendo decided to play Anderson’s game and strike. I don’t think Sonnen is trying to be exciting, or get the big right hand finish….and that might be just the strategy that could beat Anderson.
Of course, I have a feeling Vitor might KO him too. So maybe it’s just wishful thinking. But the fact is, I remember a time when Anderson wasn’t some insane unstoppable force…and I also remember a time when guys like Andrei Arlovski were considered just that. Everyone looks invincible….until they get beat.
Did you see the "I'm five strike attempts from the title" interview by any chance?
To this and the above by clownbaby, I definitely see where you’re coming from and I’m excited for this fight on a bunch of different levels for many of the same reasons… but I’m thinking about this interview right after Chael ventures that he’s going to run Anderson over with his wrestling:
“if he tries to punch me, I’m gonna put my forehead into his chest and run him into the fence, etc etc”
He then immediately switches to talking about standing up with Nate Marquardt. And he’s like “he was way faster than I expected! I didn’t see any of his strikes coming at me!” … This is exactly sort of surprise you see on the faces of everybody that fights Anderson. I don’t mean this as rhetoric, but rather as a truly entertaining detail of watching Silva fight. It’s a riot to watch on replay.
People always look SO dumbfounded when they actually get in there and strike with him. It’s uncanny. Experienced dudes are seriously out there making faces like “holy crap what is happening to me!” in nearly all of Anderson’s fights at some point.
If Chael experienced even a taste of this with Nate (granted, he wanted to be at least somewhat complementary about something), I can’t help but think a nasty outcome is likely should he share an octagon with Anderson or Vitor. But that’s the great thing about a style matchup like this. I feel like either way you stack it it’s going to be an extremely definitive fight
LOVE THIS POST -rec'd!
- I gotta say that I appreciate the time that you put into this post.
- I’m just happy that there are strong arguments for Sonnen against Silva. Silva has to defeat a good striker in Vitor Belfort in order for that to happen.
- I think people need to understand that Marquardt and Silva are TWO different fighters. What Sonnen was able to do against Marquardt does not apply against Silva. People can make assumptions about Silva’s wrestling, ground game or bjj skills but the Silva question has not been solved yet.
- People tend to forget that Silva has been virtually unscathed in all of his UFC fights. Then add that fact that Sonnen has never finished an opponent under the Zuffa umbrella. Believe what you will, but I think the strong competition that Sonnen will offer Silva is in the pre-fight hype.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
Nevermind Silva’s wrestling. People are comletely forgetting his footwork and anticipation. Sonnen has to be able to get a grip on Silva before he can take him down, and just charging in is a great way to get punched in the face from three different angles in three seconds while grabbing a big load of air.
ELUSIVE. (I hate that word.)
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
that flow chart is greaaaaaaaaat
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Feb 11, 2010 11:49 AM EST reply actions

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