Did Sonnen do enough to "beat the champ"???
by 20dawkins20 on Feb 7, 2010 8:19 PM EST
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PrintChael Sonnen certainly put in an impressive performance last night and proved some doubters wrong (me included) that thought he didnt stand much a chance against Nate "The Great" Marquadt. Despite Chael's dominance I am surprised that a couple of different factors didnt lead to Nate stealing either the 2nd or 3rd round. Would that still be true though if the guy holding Sonnen in his guard already had the belt around his waist??
Looking at the 2 fighters today I dont think there would be much doubt about who won the fight. We would all be wrong but the cut/stitches gashing across Sonnen's forehead, the result of a single elbow from inside Marquadt's guard, came closer to ending this fight than Sonnen ever was despite holding his opponent down for 10+ minutes. Would the combination of that ugly cut and the lack of any true highlight reel takedown/strike/submission attempts lead to another machida/rua-esque case of "doing enough to beat the champ"?? Could the same be said about Marquadt's purple face inducing guillotine in the third round??
As time goes on and Sonnen's rep of grinding out decisions grows does this make it harder or easier for him to win the big one. Do the judges become more aware of his gameplan/style or do they (judges and fans) begin to resent his no frills, meat and potatoes (and IMO boring) fighting style?? Ever since seeing Sonnen not be able to finish a Paulo Filho that was seeing Jesus in the middle of the third round I had doubts about his abilities to take it to the next level. He has already proven me wrong once earning a UFC title shot. Will he be able to do it again??
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The entire "doing enough to beat the champ" nonsense needs to go away
If that was a championship 3-round fight (hypothetical situation) with Nate having the belt, Sonnen would’ve been the new champion. Nate had absolutely no offense for the first two rounds besides a few elbows.
If at least 3 rounds of Sonnen’s fight with the winner of Silva/Belfort looks like the first two rounds of this fight he deserves to be champion if the fight goes to decision (assuming the other rounds aren’t his are 10-9 Silva/Belfort). When you’re the only one landing any meaningful offense you deserve the round, regardless of how boring it may be.
Having a title means just that…a title. Doesn’t mean that judges should give you preferential treatment. Doesn’t mean that your opponent has to “do more” to some ridiculous intangible standard.
People may disagree with me but I honestly see how someone could’ve judged Machida/Rua 48-47 for Lyoto. I did on first viewing. It had nothing to do with who had the belt on going into the match.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
by Tonley on Feb 7, 2010 8:46 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Sonnen
completely dominated the entire fight… and that BS about having to “beat the champ” is weak anyway, so this whole thread is ridiculous!
by PHISH NATION on Feb 7, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
"Beating the champ" is bullshit
If it’s not in the rules, then it’s not a real concept.
Sonnen dominated Marquardt, and although Nate landed the better strikes standing & remained dangerous throughout, it was Chael who exerted the greatest deal of control and damage. Clear cut UD
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by ElliotMatheny on Feb 7, 2010 10:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
If it’s not in the rules, then it’s not a real concept.
Tell that to the NBA refs who swallow their whistle at the end of games, or the NFL refs who would never throw a flag on an end of game hail mary. Take a look at my other response below that tries to clarify my original thoughts behind the fanpost.
Umm
As time goes on and Sonnen’s rep of grinding out decisions grows does this make it harder or easier for him to win the big one. Do the judges become more aware of his gameplan/style or do they (judges and fans) begin to resent his no frills, meat and potatoes (and IMO boring) fighting style??
I’m sorry but this statement doesn’t make much sense at all. Sonnen was punishing Nate Marquardt with GnP in the first two rounds. That wasn’t boring at all IMO and not even close to any type of lay and pray or anything.
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Exactly. Methodical GNP and Lay and Pray are two different things.
If you can’t tell the differences, go to a gym and ask someone to show you the difference. Had Chael opened up anymore than he did, he’d be sweeped, he fought a great fight.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 7, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Methodical GNP and Lay and Pray are two different things.
completely agree. I just think that methodical GNP that doesnt put the fear of ending the fight into the opponent is asking for problems… especially if the opponent can put together any type of submission attempt and/or defensive response.
Can’t disagree with your statement, but the guys who really do methodical GNP (Brock Lesnar, GSP, Sonnen.) do it because they are so good at controlling, they just CAN"T put anything together. Because every time they think they can breathe, they eat a big elbow, or get hit hard.
Sonnen isn’t at the point where he can do it and never be caught off guard, as seen when Nate had that Guillotine.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 9, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Sonnen vs. Marquardt was not boring.
a Paulo Filho that was seeing Jesus in the middle of the third
-HILARIOUS but true!!!
yeah yeah yeah . . .
Sorry guys… I think I did a poor job in writing this fanpost and trying to explain my point. We can all agree that the idea of “beating the champ” is bullshit but that doesnt change the fact that (at this point) it appears to be an unwritten rule in the sport. When looking for the next fighter to fall into this trap Chael appears to be the perfect storm. Combine the high pressure a judge might feel of getting over a UFC champ (Silva), with Sonnen’s 3 year drought of early finishes, his negative public image, and his fighting style… it equals a recipe for disaster.
While I agree that it was a clear cut 30-27 fight I wanted to use the examples of the 2nd round elbow and the 3rd round guillotine to show how close Nate came to stealing those 2 rounds. When fighting for the championship, (right or wrong) his margin of error gets that much smaller.
Now in fear of contradicting everything I said above… A fighter’s gameplan that is consistently built around going the distance to a decision is a poor gameplan. I dont want to turn this into an argument on whether that is/isnt his gameplan but if it isnt he needs to start making changes in his camp and/or gameplan so he starts finishing some of these fights. Otherwise he will have noone but himself to blame when he inevitably gets robbed of one.
I agree that he could very well get robbed if he fights for the belt; it’s just a shame that people take this whole “you have to beat the champ” thing to heart.
Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them -- a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill.
-Muhammed Ali
Eh
I agree that he could very well get robbed if he fights for the belt
If Sonnen takes either Silva or Belfort down and does the same thing he did to Marquardt. There’s no way he’ll lose via judges decision.
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Stranger things have happened. (Like Machida winning against Shogun)
if it was a championship fight then they would have given the 3rd round to Marquardt; thats just how the judges see things
Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them -- a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill.
-Muhammed Ali
Strange outcomes do occur. However you cannot use Machida’s victory as an example. Machida v. Shogun was a very close, difficult fight to call. Bispings win over Hammil was “strange”. Chael’s performance against Marquardt was not close at all. One cut does not count more than fourteen minutes of being on your back getting punched in the face. One submission you do not pull off does not count more than a takedown, octagon control, effective striking from an advantageous position and effective grappling. Sorry.
As for the third round going to Nate in a hypothetical title fight… i want what you’re smoking. Tell me how the fight was scored? Did any judge give Nate the third round?
by sadface on Feb 9, 2010 4:30 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
If Nate was the champ and Sonnen the challenger; they would have given that third round to Nate just based on that near sub at the end.
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is this your opinion or is there some concreate facts to support your statement?
by sadface on Feb 11, 2010 6:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The problem with this premise is that there is no real difference between a champion and a huge favorite (betting wise or a fan favorite)
“doing enough to beat the champ” is not a real rule, it was an excuse that boxing broadcasters came up to explain terrible decisions. Anyone who has watched a significant amount of boxing or mma should realize that terrible decisions are not restricted to championship fights. Putting a belt around nate would not make him much more of a fan favorite or a betting favorite, so most of the reasons in place to give close rounds to one person were in place, and still no judge gave him the round.
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