It's Not Just Frank Mir, Brock Lesnar and B.J. Penn Have Talked About Killing Their UFC Opponents
by Kid Nate on Feb 24, 2010 1:30 PM EST
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WatchKalibRun tracked down the Brock Lesnar remarks:
Well, Brock Lesnar said something very similar about Frank Mir to Maxim.com, except this was in the lead up to UFC 100 (thanks tokreatorofpain for tip):
Does Frank Mir stand a chance in UFC 100? Did he get lucky in his first fight against Lesnar? Isn't a more experienced Lesnar, who was already bigger and stronger, unstoppable? "I'm gonna murder him," Lesnar says. "I count the days and the nights before I get to do that."
MMA Fighting documents more of the atrocities:
Prior to UFC 94 last year, B.J. Penn addressed Georges St. Pierre in a video shot and distributed by the UFC by saying, "Georges, I'm going to go to the death. I'm going to try to kill you and I'm not joking about this."
Just days before Mir made his comments about Lesnar, UFC President Dana White said, "You know what would happen to Herschel Walker over here? It would be the first death in MMA."
The same week that Mir made his comments about Lesnar, another UFC heavyweight, Cain Velasquez, said of his UFC 110 fight with Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, "He is going to have to kill me, and I will have to kill him to beat him out there, and that's what we'll do to each other."
Chuck Liddell told Ariel Helwani of his upcoming fight with Tito Ortiz, "I'm gonna try to kill him."
After earning a shot at Penn last year, Kenny Florian looked at Penn and said, "I consider you a master, and it's time to kill that master."
I just have to say, this is all becoming incredibly overblown, but it's very typical of our current media climate in which out of context quotes can suddenly become controversial "gotcha" moments. It's Frank Mir's turn in the barrel, but it could happen to any fighter at any time who's thoughtless enough and unlucky enough to say the wrong thing to the wrong media outlet at the wrong time.
As SBNation's pro-wrestling blog Cage Side Seats wrote, it's much ado about nothing -- and they know about empty hype:
Not really, as Zach Arnold points out it's just a misjudged pro wrestling style promo to hype up a potential rubber match with Lesnar. Of course, a trained professional wrestler would know never to say such a thing, because you never tease something you can't deliver on. In MMA it's even dumber, given that the sport is not yet legal in some major North American markets (such as New York and Toronto) and opponents of the sport could capitalize on such comments to keep it banned in those states. And Jonathan Snowden was mocked for having the gall to suggest that such promos could be bad for the image of the sport after UFC 100! Fortunately no-one was paying attention this time, so hopefully Dana White will give Mir a good talking to and it won't happen again.
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I think the difference between Frank and everyone else is the context. Frank explicity said he wanted Brock to die from injuries…everyone else was speaking out of competition…not graphically describing how they would like their opponent to die
by MikeD32 on Feb 24, 2010 12:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions 9 recs
I think the difference was that I actually believe him:) He was too specific, but it’s this constant obsession with Brock that really put it over the line.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 24, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Your basis sounds so subjective. The difference is that YOU believe him. So the line between acceptable hype and morally repugnant rants is whether or not it makes you personally uncomfortable. There needs to be some form of objective view on this.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
Not really...
Mir’s obsession with Brock has been going on since, well probably before their first fight.
Frankly, its getting past a bit weird and is becoming a bit concerning. There are tons of big fights for Mir and yet he continues to focus only on getting another shot at Brock.
I’d be a bit concerned about what will happen with Mir if the next fight between him and Brock, assuming there is one, turns out like the 2nd.
by Razreshat on Feb 24, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand why people refer to it as an obsession
Yes, he wants to avenge an embarrassing loss and have a shot at the title. Chael Sonnen has been talking about Anderson being overrated since the UFC absorbed his division. He said his fight with Maia would determine who the true #1 middleweight in the world was. Is Sonnen obsessed with Anderson? No, he’s just ambitious and wants to make the best of his career. That’s what Mir’s doing. He’s putting on weight and trying to talk up a rematch for the title. He’s using hyperbole that this article shows is not that uncommon. And for that he’s some kind of mad man.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
No matter who Mir is set to fight, even when he doesn't have a fight coming up...
he is talking about Brock.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a Google Alert for Brock’s name.
And Sonnen talked about Anderson leading into his fight with Marquardt
But he’s viewed as some sort of savy businessman and Mir is some psychotic moron who’s just going to get smashed anyways.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
Did Sonnen comment on wanting Anderson's death...
by his hands? Did he illustrate how he wanted to make it happen?
No, but he did make a few vaguely homophobic comments in relation to Anderson’s dancing and love of pink shirts.
And comments which could easily be construed as racist. I view racism and homophobia to be much worse than half hearted hyperbolic death threats but apparently I’m in the minority.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
by Neil Manich on Feb 24, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just pointing out inconsistencies in the online community’s moral outrage.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
I will add though that it’s easy to see why fight fans tend to gloss over homophobia. But that’s a big debate for another day.
Vaguely homophobic...
and specifically threatening are two different worlds.
Let me know when Chael gets around to threats to Anderson’s life rather than being threatened by how others live.
I'm sorry,
But this is somewhere we will never agree. I find casual racism and homophobia much worse both morally and for the image of the sport than empty threats.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
by Neil Manich on Feb 24, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Chael is a savy businessman, before that fight, before all the smack talk about Anderson, who knew who Chael Sonnen was? Hardly anyone, and now there is legitimate heat for a fight with him and Anderson.
Frank Mir’s popularity is well established and a third fight between him and Brock sells itself.
just like we fans are ALWAYS talking about some fighter?
Its not that serious. Mir uses his media attention to garner attention for his possible rubber match. He also uses Brock as a goal, since he’s obviously the champ, and since Mir has a win over him, he believes he could win the belt back, and get revenge for his beatdown at 100
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
It's an obsession...
When all you talk about is Brock Lesnar, and saying that you don’t know what would happen to you if he were never able to fight again. That’s what Mir said when all the news about Brocks illness started hitting the mainstream.
Maybe you haven’t heard all of Mir’s interviews, but from what can be extracted of all that he has said; Brock Lesnar seems to be the focal point of his life right now. It’s not even about becoming the champion with Mir anymore, it’s about getting back at Brock Lesnar. That’s when it starts being a little of a concern.
Mir’s lost other fights pretty badly. I remember when he came back all outta shape and got KO’d by the more undersized HW (At the time) Brandon Vera. Did he go anywhere near to the point of getting back at Vera for that KO than he has with Lesnar? Hell no! He never even mentioned Vera or a rematch.
What Brock and BJ said is different than what Mir said. Especially wehn compounding this lust and obsession that Mir has with getting back at Brock.
There is something about Lesnar that has taken Mir to a very dark place in his mind. They talk about the full context of what Mir said. I looked at it over and over. It’s still disturbing to me. When a person says that they want to break another persons neck, in the fight game, and who is very well capable of doing it (BJJ)…that’s a red flag. Like I said….Mir’s at a dark place….
It’s just not good for MMA. It’s just plain wreckless on a MMA veteran and professional like Mir. That’s when you know that somethings not right!
by JAFOrlando26 on Feb 24, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I still take this with a grain of salt. Brock is the GOOSELESNAR!!! with the GOLDEN PPV EGG ready to be laid, and I think that, plus the UFC 100 beatdown clearly plays into Frank’s obsession. I didn’t like Frank’s comments either, but it’s just pathetically self serving/self contradictory garbage in my mind. This is the fight game as you’ve said, and guys have to want to hurt each other to win. I don’t think Frank has completely flipped out, but I do believe he really hates Brock and wants to beat him so bad he can’t stand having to wait. Guys are going to feel that way, and from what I know, some fighter’s do have a fairly dark place in their mind, they’ve just learned it’s proper expression. I just prefer Frank take it down a notch on the specificity meter, and just lay off until he’s actually going to get a fight with Brock again, which is no given.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 24, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
lol@ dark place.
Its one thing to think he’s an idiot, and its a complete another to think he’s in a “dark place” and literally wants to kill Brock.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
SOUNDS so subjective? Sorry for appearing to be so deadly serious. Of course I’m talking about MY line, there is no objective line to discuss here. I’m not calling for Frank to be banned from the sport, or picked up on domestic terrorism charges, or for Dana White to issue hilariously “pot calls the kettle black” type decrees and spankings. This kind of talk goes on in EVERY sport, and it doesn’t mean much, except that I’m coming around to the opinion that, by his own supposed standards, Frank Mir is acting like a epic jackass, and thus I want to see BROCKLESNAR!!! beat the shit out of him again, which is want Frank wants me to want. When in reality, I’d like Brock to fight anyone but Frank, at least until we get to see Brock against someone else, Carwin, Cain, JDS, etc. I would prefer that Frank show the class, discipline and respect that he claims he stands for as the true and valiant keeper of the “Code of the Martial Artist”, rather than talk about killing people to defend said code. But my objective view is, big deal. This is sports, a separate realm where participants have agreed that each are allowed to do things that would be illegal outside the competition. Under such conditions, what a competitor SAYS about another seems like small potatoes, except of course to my personal bias, which is that crap like this is uncreative, stump-dumb hype, and plays completely opposite to Frank’s own statements about his dislike for Brock, his pro wrestling background, and disrespect to the sport and to the martial arts values.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 24, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Then I’m sorry for calling you out. I misconstrued what you were saying, and we pretty much agree.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
No problem. I just don’t see the moral outrage you’re reading into people’s comments, and so I was taking all this with huge grains of salt. It’s just people’s preference in fighters attitudes coming into play here. A lot of people hate:) this kind of talk in MMA, but apart from a few comments, I haven’t heard anyone calling for some kind of punishment. The thing that’s really inducing my personal annoyance is just how lame and contradictory this all is coming from Frank Mir. And I basically share your sensitivity to racist or homophobic remarks, but I’d generally, except in very blatant circumstances, prefer to let people make their own judgements rather than reduce MMA to the kind of lawyer packaged comments found in the mouths of most professional athletes.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 24, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
Ehh, maybe I am overreacting and reading too much into it. But some of this just sounds so phony.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
Well, this is the punishment, eh? Frank gets all of us leaping on his head screaming at him. Honestly, this sport is dangerous, and potentially deadly. The whole thing walks a line between sport and pure violence, so I’m cool with people being vigilant and freaking out a bit. Talk is just talk, but it could all be used against the sport if a serious (by MMA standards) or death occured. It leads us into weird places:) Thought it was interesting that Frank used the phrase “in the Octagon”. Probably thought that was his free pass if he went too far. As far as I’m concerned this, I would like fighter’s and Dana himself to watch it a bit. Isn’t wanting to beat the shit out of the guy, or break a limb, enough? But I just know that in daily life, I hear, and occasionally say myself that I’m going to kill someone, blah, blah, blah. But if I was saying, I want to open this guy up with a rusty blade and stomp on his guts, the detail takes that to another place. But yeah, who are we going to let determine the line, other than the court of public opinion. Sorry to write you a novella in response, but I was like WHOA!!! I’m misunderstood!
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 24, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
The difference is murder is a figure of speech
whereas “I want to break his neck and I hope he dies of injuries sustained in the octagon etc…” is very explicit in it’s meaning. That and the fact that it was a one and done statement by Brock.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
Context is indeed, everything.
Football players might say murder. Bugs bunny might say Muy-dur. Brock said “Murder” is the context of “I am going to beat him real bad.” BJ walked the line with kill and not kidding. But talking about a guy that you are not slated to fight and that you want him to die from injuires you cause, is over the line. Hell, they are all over the line, but Mir ventured into Tyson territory psychosis.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
not really
Especially listening to him, his tone isn’t even that serious… He was basically using an extreme to signify that while everyone says generic responses, he doesn’t.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
btw I still think it was a dumb thing to say
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Subjectively, its seems to me that Mir wishes harm to a person he is not slated to fighting and uses a common cause of death in fighters to describe how he wishes to play a role in the death of someone. Is it the same thing as saying you will murder someone in a fight? yeah. I think to me that it is, subjectively of coarse, worse. They are all over the line, but to varying degrees.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Give me a break
I’d write more on this if I had time, but let this suffice for now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_difference
I’ve never seen this much reliance of manufactured logic, subjective standards, implied reasoning and assumed premises in a long, long time.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Feb 24, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
by Neil Manich on Feb 24, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
That’s a nice link, but most of the comparisons noted above are metaphors often used in sports, not limited to MMA. “Team X will murder Team Y” is an example.
Saying you want someone to die from octagon related injuries is not a metaphor used throughout sports.
by Hardcharger on Feb 24, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
Imagine if a linebacker said “I’m going to hit him hard. I wanna hit him so hard, he’s going to die from injuries”.
Or a pitcher saying “I’m going to throw a pitch as his head. I’m gonna throw so hard, he’s going to die from injuries”.
Waaaaaayyy different than “I’m gonna kill that guy” or “we’ll murder them”.
I’m not bothered by what Frank Mir says, actually.
I’m a BJ Penn fan. I love the shit talking.
But “I’m going to break his neck, and he will be the first death in MMA”…that’s not an easy read on print.
Didn’t Dick Butkus say something about wanting to hit a guy so hard it knocked his head off?
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
I agree with you, and you’ve illustrated the distinction between how Mir’s comments don’t transcend to other sports. I believe there’s a clear difference.
Except that there isn’t. And this armchair pseudo-psychology and espousing of imaginary standards and limitations is just embarrassing to watch be thrown around.
I’ll have more on this later, but watching some of you folks issue proclamations based on nothing but the most subjective, inapplicable standards is really revealing. Not in a good way.
Of course, everyone and their brother thinks my comments are an exoneration of Mir, which they are not. But I suppose if attacking a straw man helps everyone high five each other in this space, do what is necessary to sleep at night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_difference
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Yes, there’s a clear difference, and what is embarrassing to you is not realizing or admitting that some statements are metaphors, while detailing how you actually want someone to die is anything but. There’s a clear history.
Just because you wish for there to be no distinction between these various comments rounded up doesn’t make it so, regardless of your proclamation of “armchair pseudo psychology”.
LOL at you saying that “everyone and their brother thinks my comments are an exoneration of Mir”, and then referencing the use of a strawman. Hypocrisy much? Keep posting that wikipedia link, if it helps you sleep at night.
Mostly, this thread is standard pedantic BS’ing on an internet forum, so yeah – alot of it is just the usual double standards and fallacious reasoning.
But I don’t think, Luke, that you really believe strict objective logical standards should be applied to what should (shouldn’t) be condemned when said by a sports figure on a public broadcast.
Strict logic is great for math. Not so much for moral, social, or etiquette standards.
Some degree of “subjectivity” and vagueness is inevitable there, ask anyone from Aristotle to Wittgenstein.*
*Maybe not Kant, but he is all kinds of crazy. :P
In other words, a moral/social distinction isn’t necessarily invalid, just because it depends upon a subjective judgment. And similarly, just because a judgment is subjective, doesn’t make it unreasonable.
Welcome to MMA Journalism and fan discussions.
As someone who is obviously complete new to the subject, format and logic I hope you will take some time to learn your way around so that these events don’t cause you as much consternation in the future.
;-)
by Razreshat on Feb 24, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Luke, as a blogger/writer, however you want to qualify yourself, you know as well as I do that the more specific and graphic you make something, the more literal someone will take it.
Do I think it’s being overblown? Yes, absolutely, but I also understand why, and Frank Mir with a at least a nominal background in broadcasting, should as well.
by Worldisart on Feb 24, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m with Worldisart on this one.
You could always play the Brock, BJ, and Mir clips to some random people and see which one they think is the “worst.” My bet is that it’s the Frank Mir one and for at least a few of the reasons stated above.
MMA has a marketing problem. Mir’s quote, well, that definitely didn’t help.
by former tuf noob on Feb 24, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Cosigned
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 24, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
absolutely agree
he specifically said the one thing that is terrifying all those people who have invested in getting mma legalized, that soon we’ll get the first death in the ring. bj and kenny said those things in an obviously metaphorical sense, frank didn’t seem to be making a metaphor.
though i still think the brouhaha is overblown. and the fact it’s dana trying to reign in mir is some great irony.
by K Krush on Feb 24, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s not a metaphor
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 24, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
I think you people need to stop watching fighting, and pick up a sport more suited to your stomach.
Knitting maybe?
by Din71 on Feb 24, 2010 12:58 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
If anyone takes this advice, I need some socks.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
My wife love watching fights AND she made me a scarf! Best of both worlds!
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
My wife let’s me sleep in the bed when I get home tipsy from the bar after a night of fights, that’s about all I can ask.
My wife takes me to the bar, watches the fights with me, and then we cab it home together cause we’re both tipsy.
Acutally, that’s how it used to go. Now that fights are on at 3am here, she watches them with me over Sunday breakfast.
I have the best spouse in the world.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
“My wife” is a phrase I can’t say yet and I’m fucking loving it.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 24, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps it's just bad timing.
The UFC is aggressively pursing the legalization of MMA in New York. Dana has said it himself that he hopes that MMA is legalized in 2010 as that is one of their goals for this year. For the most part it seems like that day is almost here and I’m just thinking that perhaps the UFC brass doesn’t want an extreme statement like this to be taken out of context during New York state’s decision making process.
Yeh, cuz this is NOTHING comaparred to Diaz smoking weed and messing with Brookhouse’s Sport of MMA.
its apparent that youre being facetious, but it is nothing compared to that. Apples and veal.
by Austin Martin on Feb 24, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
This is simple trolling...
and you’re gone
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 24, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks Brent, I’m glad to see you guys ruling with an iron fist now.
by Austin Martin on Feb 24, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
haha i wish i knew what you guys were talking about, i must’ve missed the poop guy stuff. I just saw a lot of indicators and people starting to sound like mmajunkie a year and a half ago when the comments became intolerable. I like this blog too much to see that happen. I realize that when the traffic increases it becomes much harder to maintain.
by Austin Martin on Feb 24, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
This is the second poop guy reference today. I read BE every day except when I’m travelling and I have no idea what the hell is going on.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
right? i’m on here a lot of the day to read the comments and articles, and i have never seen this phantom poop guy. He mustve pissed some mods off bigtime.
by Austin Martin on Feb 24, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
ahhhhhhhhh i do kind of remember seeing the poop now. i skimmed over it and decided if it was poop, i didnt want to see it and if it was frozen yogurt, i didnt want to risk it being a poop pic.
by Austin Martin on Feb 24, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Brown Pride
He struck a lot of posts yesterday…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 24, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
He is going to be allowed back if he wants. Everyone play nice.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 24, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Frank Mir will be laughing all the way to the bank.
He’s taking everyone for a ride. All the haters, all the people so up in arms about this comment, just boosted Mir’s PPV numbers.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
Brock should get a ring side seat for the Carwin fight...
and smile and wave at Mir so that Carwin has an easier time punching his melon into the upper deck.
You definitely know Brock will be ringside at that fight. If Mir wins (and he probably will), they’ll bring Brock in for that face off. Pretty much guarantee a HUGE PPV number for their fight.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
The difference is that Brock fans are acting like crybabies again.
The substance of these statements is all equivalent. The only thing that’s different is that only Brock’s fans feel that he deserves special treatment.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I happen to hate Brock Lesner.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
But you're MORE upset by what Frank said than what BJ said?
The part where he said he’s kill GSP? And that he wasn’t joking?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
No, not really. Not more upset. Although, if I had to score them, I might give Mir more authenticity points. I might also make BJ seek help for liking blood off his gloves.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Wouldn't the blood lust make BJ's more authentic?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
When he shit talks, he sounds like a robot. Mir sounds a little pompous. When Mir wins, he looks like a puppy dog. When BJ wins, he looks like a maniac that will kill you and eat you without a second thought.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
See - that's my point!
Honestly: who are you more afraid of killing you in a dark alley: Mir or BJ?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Mir is known to carry and weapon (guns) at all times. So Mir.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
But he's so cuddly!
And BJ IS a weapon.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
In a cage with no guns? I would rather give up 100+ pounds and fight Mir.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
See, that's what I'm saying.
Also: how’d you get so reasonable? So many people I disagree with are so mean. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Hey man come on.
"I hope he tries to stand with me. That'd be great, I'd love it." - Heath Herring UFC 87 pre-fight interview.
by Earl Montclair on Feb 24, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Not really...
but I’m done discussing the subject.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 24, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
One last question:
Is there a substantive difference in your mind between:
- “I’m going to murder you.”
And:
- “I want to break your neck.”
How about a legal difference?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
i’m not a brock fan, i am a frank fan, but what he said is completely out of line and in no context is okay. Saying “i’m gonna murder him” is a common hyperbole used to say that you’re going to win very decisively, whereas frank made it clear he legimately thought about killing brock. Thats psychotic talk. This is a sport. And for the other statements, saying one expects a “fight to the death” is another common exaggeration, and can’t be compared to what frank said. He rightfully apologized.
by Austin Martin on Feb 24, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but you're missing half the quote. Twice,
Frank’s entire interview that’s been quoted out of context has him laughing and chuckling. He was deliberately making a statement to contrast with the kind of “aww-shucks” statements you get from some fighters that say they’ll fight whoever and it isn’t personal. LISTENING to the WHOLE interview really is the key to understanding that.
In Brock’s case he didn’t say, “Well Mean Gene, I’m gonna murder him. Figuratively.” He said that he was going to murder him and he was counting the days until he could do so. His statement was just as much a statement that he wanted to bring about Frank’s death.
And you’ll notice that Brock didn’t actually kill Frank. Or even try, really.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Feb 24, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts:
- This is a particularly sensitive issue because it specifically targeted an inescapable future tragedy of the sport: the death of a competitor. To make any statement, regardless of context, hoping for that moment to come is tough for fans to stomach.
- The fact that Mir always says he wants to break limbs and then goes out and actually does it also makes it a bit harder for us as fans to accept him saying he wants to/plans to kill somebody. He’s made good on promises to severely injure opponents before, and even though none of us expect him to really kill somebody, it makes us uncomfortable.
- The invocation of death talk is not always unacceptable. You can have a “slaughter rule” and nobody expects the losing team to be ritualistically murdered. The reason this instance is a sore spot, for me at least, is covered in the previous 2 bullet points.
- Luke, I prefaced this with “My thoughts.” Please forgive my subjectivity.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Well, point-by-point
- Brock counting the days until he murders somebody is also hard to stomach.
- Mir didn’t start talking about breaking limbs until AFTER he broke Sylvia’s arm, so that point doesn’t make a lot sense. Especially since that break was CLEARLY a freak accident.
- You’re welcome to your opinion, but I’d love to hear you defend what BJ said.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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I'll also respond point by point.
- Straw man, I never mentioned Brock. My point still stands. Invoking a specific unavoidable future tragedy that we all dread is not something fans want to hear as fight hype.
- The Sylvia break was not a “freak accident.” It was a modified form of an armbar where he used his cup as the fulcrum directly on the bone when he was too high to sink a traditional armbar. It was a legal submission and I do not fault Mir for using such a technique, but he fully intended to snap bones.
- Again you’re using a straw man, but I actually commented on it in another section. Something along the lines of “It may not be the same ballpark, but it’s in the same league and they are playing the same sport.” Regardless, I’m addressing the issue at hand. I won’t say what happened in Rwanda wasn’t a tragedy because there’s ethnic cleansing in Darfur or vice versa.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Those aren't straw man arguments, but:
- I didn’t say you mentioned Brock, I’m asking you to evaluate his comments in light of your statement on Mir’s. That’s why it’s not a straw man.
- Watch the tape in real time – he starts out with a traditional armbar and Sylvia pulls his arm back out right as Frank starts to torque. I’ve heard him say that it was on purpose, but that’s just “Oh, I meant to do that!” in my opinion.
- I didn’t accuse you of supporting BJ, I asked you what you thought. Not a straw man.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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For people debating the merits of refraining from saying “murder” in regard to athletic competetion, there sure are a lot of bullets flying around.
Rimshot!
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 24, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, again:
- I am talking about why Mir’s statements make fans and me personally uncomfortable. Brining up Brock is a straw man because I can be uneasy about what Mir’s statements as a standalone. Input on other situations is irrelevant, and tangential at best.
- I repeat: I don’t fault Mir for finishing the fight. It was a quick offensive adjustment in the face of adversity and he modified traditional grappling technique into MMA very well. That adjustment involved cranking the shit out of a bone on a solid fulcrum… the only reason to do that is to break said limb. He made a distinct, concerted effort to break that arm. Not a freak accident.
- It’s a straw man for the same reason bringing up Brock was.
- NEW POINT: You keep bringing up other fighters… why? When somebody tells you to recycle a can, do you say “Do you drive a Prius? No? Then you should be ok with Yucca Mountain and landfills full of Styrofoam packing peanuts.”
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Two things are unequivocally true in this situation
1) When you are the HW champion of the biggest promotion out there and the biggest draw in the sport, you do get special treatment and you probably deserve it.
2) Frank crossed a line, and while in some corners it’s being overblown, it is worth noting.
Frank has been champ and interim champ (whatever that really means)
doesn’t he get the same leeway?
Brock also crossed that line. Where was the outrage?
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Well you know people do get outraged at basically everything Brock does.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
I think it's the haircut.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Brock also crossed that line. Where was the outrage?
you didn’t ask then.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Well, since I'm outraged by neither...
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Absolutely incorrect, but absolutely unsurprising, coming from a Lesnar hater. Most of the statements compared to Mir’s are common sports metaphors, which are nothing like Mir’s direct and unequivocal wish for Lesnar to die from fight related injuries. Try again.
So how's that kill-file feature coming?
Anybody working on that? Because I’m tired of poor Hardcharger being forced to read things he can’t understand.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Classic diversion when being called to the carpet for yet another of your moronic posts. At least you are consistent, albeit consistently pathetic.
Yes, and your post was so full of content.
Blah, blah, blah.
You want me to take your post seriously? Tell me: how is “I’m going to try to kill you and I’m not joking about this” a metaphor?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I said there were comments thrown in for purposes of comparison which were clearly common sports metaphors. I’ve also repeatedly said that Penn’s comments were the closest to Mir’s, and that I didn’t care for Penn’s comments at the time either. That’s a clear distinction which refutes your contention of a double standard, which is far more content than flaming the comments section like you’ve done by calling others crybabies, etc. I get you don’t like Lesnar, but Mir was a bit over the line in the fight hype in this case.
Where is this line you’re talking about?
I mean, do you ACTUALLY think he’s going to try to kill Brock? Will he sneak a gun into the ring?
And why doesn’t Brock saying not that he “wants” Mir to die (a desire) but that he is GOING to MURDER him (a plan) better?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Also, how is “I’m gonna murder him” a metaphor? I’m not up on poetic devices. Help me out.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
It's not a metaphor
It’s a hyperbole
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 24, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
This guys is seriously killing my argument. Makes me want to get back to work. My points are
- the offenses are equal, but subjectively I can rate them and predict which will be used against MMA in an argument.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
If an NFL player says "I'm going to murder Peyton Manning"
nobody’s really going to pay it much mind.
If an NFL player says “I’m going to try and break Peyton Manning’s neck, and watch him die on the field.” He’s going to get in a hell of a lot of trouble. There’s a difference, and it isn’t a subjective one. When one describes a specific means, it is no longer hyperbole. It’s premeditation.
by Trysdor on Feb 24, 2010 1:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It is a subjective on. Its your impression of how they mean what they say. They are the same thing if taken literally.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Only if we close our eyes, stick our hands in our ears, go lalalalalalala
and pretend we have no idea what hyperbole is.
I know what hyperbole is even with my fingers in my ears. The issue is, judging something to be hyperbole is subjective. I get what he is saying is for hype and why he is hyping another match that will get him paid, no issue with that. But specifically what he is saying can be perceived in a negative way.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
The story here is Frank crossed a line
Regardless of the line is rational or consistent, Frank crossed a line. He actually named the method in which he was going to kill somebody, people got offended and now both him and the UFC are going through the motions. Its like never going full retard if you want to win a roster. You don’t get specific and you keep your death threats vague. Its all political, and it ultimately doesn’t matter.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
Whelp in all honesty I don’t want anyone to die but if he could say…. tear his MCL or something of that career ending type of injury im fine with that
People keep talking about mir Obsessed with brock but the interviewers are asking him questions about brock. Its not like hes going around to all of these media outlets unsolicited spewing all this stuff about brock.
Bottom line....
Smells like Mir’s been using too much of that “Obsession” for men. It’s nuts, and crazy.
Frank Mir has always been cocky, and arrogant. I guess he found that bored. Perhaps he felt it was time to venture into a new plateau…..“Insanity” perhaps?….
WEll for what it’s worth, I’d say Frank’s (and B.J’s) were meant more literally. Words don’t have fixed meaning all of the time, and will always be something of an approximation of a person’s emotion. So saying “i’m going to kill him” depending onthe way its said can mean different things.
That said? Moral outrage? Nah. The only thing I’d be upset about is the fact that if this goes on, it becomes a tired schtick really quickly. The guys doing it will just look really stupid and we’ll all be rolling our eyes at it, which isn’t such a bad thing.
i dont really have a problem with what frank said. the guy got in his bloody face and was very disrespectful seconds after pounding his face in, i would have the same feelings. on the other hand, i can see dana having a problem with it possibly jeopardizing future sanctions and such. but other than that, people are just being way too pc, or jumping on a new reason to hate on frank mir.
Aren’t they making this a bigger deal than it really is? Hype brings people’s interests up…Mir is setting this fight up perfectly. Lesnar is obviously affected by his comments and will want this fight more than ever. Mir doesn’t even have to beat Carwin now. I wish Mir wouldn’t look past Carwin but it appears he is. It’s goin to be interesting how all this rolls out but the heavyweight division is probably the best one in the whole UFC…big diff from 5-10yrs ago…
I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine
~Bruce Lee
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The only thing that differentiates Mir's comments
is the fact that they were lurid and specific enough to get picked up by mainstream sports media. The problem is not that he said he wanted to kill Lesnar (who can take care of himself) but rather that he described it colorfully enough to prick the ears of those who are always ready to criticize MMA as bloodsport.
If it hasn’t already, the UFC needs to invest some money in giving mandatory media training to every fighter who signs a contract. Some politician will be waving this quote around in the New York legislature saying “I told you so” in no time.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
If you've only read the quote, it should be listened to...
not saying it’ll change your mind necessarily but I think its important to hear it, as opposed to just reading the quotes.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Feb 24, 2010 3:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I will say that this public outcry has only hardened my support for Frank Mir.
I do see a meaningful difference between Mir’s comments and those of Penn or Lesnar, but that difference makes Mir’s remarks look less like a threat to me. Mir was explicitly discussing his thoughts. Penn told us he was going to kill GSP. Lesnar told us he was going to kill Mir. Mir told us that he wanted to kill Lesnar, and thought he’d mention it.
I’m 100% behind Mir on this one.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Feb 24, 2010 3:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
cagepotato got the difference right, and made me lol at the same time
“Understand the difference now? Mir isn’t a bad person for saying he wants to kill Lesnar, but he did go just a tad too far with the specifics. He probably did it to make a point, and in a way he made that point, but that doesn’t mean it was a good idea. Fortunately, Lesnar doesn’t have the internet so may know nothing about this. If he finds out though, man, he’s going to freaking kill this guy.”
Is it just that I'm jaded?
I felt no kind of outrage when I first read the quote the other day, and didn’t expect any until I started reading comments. I’m just numb to this.
/goes to dispose of bodies
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I feel the same...
It was obvious he’s just playing up the revenge angle and maybe went in a little too hard .
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Softball
My upper league co-ed team played our arch rivals on Monday night. They are always one of the top 3 teams in the league and we have never beat them. Everybody on our team said at one time or another the last few years that we want to “kill” or “murder” them. Did that mean we were actually thinking of doing that to them? Of course not! They are actually a nice group of folks but we wanted to destroy them. Now, none of us came out and said “I want hit one of their players in the face with a ball and have them be the first person to die on the softball fields due to softball related injuries”. Ridiculous. Mir just needs to calm the hell down, beat Carwin, and then go out and beat Lesnar. That will calm the voices in his head.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Surprisingly, I just saw Wilbon defend Mir on PTI
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
After Mir/Lesnar II, Frank Mir was emasculated by Bock Lesnar in front of millions, in a way that had never been done before to anyone. It went beyond just Lesnar as a WWF ‘entertainer’, it was personal.
I can completely understand why Mir would obsess over revenge.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
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