Cut Stoppages: Elbows to Blame or Wrongfully Accused
by Riley_96 on Feb 23, 2010 7:23 PM EST
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It was during a discussion over the use of stomps and soccer kicks me and another poster engaged in a friendly argument over the use of elbows vs stomps and the frequency on how each stop fights on in what manner they do so. The major sticking point was that elbows are the cause of many fight ending cuts and they do not end fights via TKO. With this argument in my mind i went about collecting data to find out for myself are elbows really only good for cutting people to stop fights and if elbows really do cause most fight ending cuts.
I started at UFC 36 which is when the first cut stoppage in the Zuffa era happened and then went through until today. I recorded each cut stoppage and each TKO via elbows. After recording the stoppages i went to my DVD collection to pin point what strike caused each cut and to get an idea of what kind of manner the elbows were used in. By that i mean weather the person who caused the cut was in trouble looking for a way to stop the fight or was in a part of the persons ground and pound in which would have kept going cut or not. I only recorded the numbered events but also looked at the fight nights and TUF finales and will give the amount of cut stoppages. my findings are as follows.
From the first Zuffa era event in which a cut stoppage happened (which is UFC 36) the UFC has put on 701 fights with 12 of said fights ending in doctors stoppage due to cuts. The figure is 1.7% of fights have ended in cuts.
I broke down the cut stoppages into 3 different categories which were: Legal strikes (kicks, knees, punches etc), Elbows, and Illegal strikes/ freak accidents.
Legal strikes led to 41.6% of the cut stoppages followed by Illegal strikes and freak accidents with 33.3% of the tally. Head bunts were the common illegal strike that resulted in a cut and the freak accident i pointed out is the Couture VS Belfort 2 fight (which can arguably go into legal strikes). Rounding out the bund is Elbow strikes with 25% of the vote. Out of the Elbow strikes each cut causing elbow was done by the fighter in a dominating position.
Elbows have led to 4 TKO stoppages in which in the numbers is 0.5% of fights while elbow caused cuts have led to 0.4% or 3 stoppages in 701 fights.
The data that i did not break down was Fight Nights which has had 4 cut stoppages in its history and the TUF finale has had 1. As i have stated i focused on the numbered events.
My findings have lwd me to see that elbows are not just a means to cut a fighter but also to end the fight. In my findings we see that there was one more stoppage due to TKO rather then a cut due to elbows. The one example of how stomps can cause huge damage in the octagon was the Mir/Simms fight when Mir was stomped on and the fight had to be called due to fact Mir was unable to continue. Mir was clearly out of it and those stomps were far worse then and ground and pound.
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good work. I am in favor of everything being allowed pretty much.. Nothing crazy but if you can headkick an opponent you should be able to 12 to 6 them and saying 11 o 6 is legal is garbage.
I want Knees to downed opponent, soccer kicks and stomps. 12 to 6.
I think that covers everything. I think they should take away foot stomps actually lol.
People say these things are dangerous. They are no more dangerous than a headkick please.
If you get hit hard by one then good its lights out game over. Obviously I’m not in there. But I want it as close as possible.
Pride did fine with knees to downed opponent. Plus you need these things to keep things fair.
The wrestlers abuse the no knees thing. JJ do much better because of the no soccer kicks. 12 to 6? eh not such a big deal makes GNP more viable.
People will adapt to these rules. People will not die to the knees on the ground… Elbows in GNP are just like these things. They cause mistakes. They don’t neccesarily mean they are gunna end it but they are dangerous so you have to move fast which usually leaves an opening.
There’s nothing wrong with these strikes. Put them in. ASAP
Agreed
with the wrestlers using “no knees to a downed fighter”. I think by just adding that one strike the fights will change instantly (and for the better). I think people today see soccer stomps/kicks as more a street fight but we can always hope.
The Cro Cop vs Perosh fight was a fight that knees to the head on a grounded opponent would have greatly changed the fight. At the very least, I wish that knees to the head were allowed on opponents who are on one knee or have their hands on the mat but still standing. I am all for knees to the head on a grounded opponent.
Even if Soccer kicks end fights 95% of the time I want them in there. Force MMA to change adapt etc. When I think MMA I wanna think Real fighting in a cage where they stop you from doing dirty shit ( balls biting etc) and pull u off before u kill that person.
I want realistic stuff. A winging fedor punch or a headkick is just as dangerous if not more than any of these things. If you allow urself to get hit by them then u deserve to lose
i think no stomps is a good rule… one late stoppage and someone gets put into a coma or worse. MMA is an athletic competition and not a gladiatorial bloodsport. fighters lives are not worth any pseudo-concept of “reality.”
if you think about the physics of it, when a head is hit with a strike normally, an impulse of mv/t is imparted into it which shakes the brain possibly leading to a concussion. when it’s hit against a surface, not only do you have that but the skull would have to actually deform so all of the kinetic energy of the strike is transformed into elastic potential energy. when you think about how much force goes into a stomp and how quick someone can get off repeated stomps before a possibly slow ref could stop the fight, that is kind of disturbing to think about
by phantasma475 on Feb 23, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
the same could be said for every strike on a downed opponent. A windmill jumpin punch IMO is much stronger than a stomp. There have been many cases where a fighter would glady take the stomp over the punch (hendo bisbing drew mcfredries jordan ravanov)
You overrate the stomp and undderate the fighter’s defense ability to overcome that stomp. They are not going to just lay there. A stomp opens up kneebars xguards all types of shit. MMa will figure out the answer.
by p123 on Feb 24, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 23, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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My personal opnion on adding rules is add them if they can help clear up or better yet prevent some stupid outcomes.
Stomps i don’t feel are needed. They add nothing to the Technique of the sport and the positions that you can get with a stomp a fight can use an axe kick. Also the reward does not equil the risk.
Soccer kicks are a give or take for me. I see where they can be useful but really they add very little to the sport as well besides the fact a rocked wrestler cannot crawl or try for ankle picks so much due to being punted in the face.
Knees to a downed fight on the other hand i believe are a good addition seeing as there have been a few screwy outcomes and some shitty outcomes such as Varner/cowboy and Kos/ Rumble. They would take away a fighter dropping to one knee when seeing the knee coming which is a current exploit would be gone with the addition of the new rule.
Great post.
Great argument backed up w/ research. I personally like elbows, foot stomps, soccer kicks and knees to a downed opponent allowed. But i guess we have to somehow satisfy the McCain’s of the world for acceptance.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
Great Job.
Just curious, did you watch the fights that ended in Elbow T/KO’s or just looked up the info?Cuz I wouldn’t be surprised if an elbow knocked out a fighter, but before the ref could stop it, punches were then used till stoppage and it was “technically” recorded as punches instead of elbows.
Having extra strikes just open up your offense more. There is not one special ultimate strike. Many people believe the illegal ones are yet they aren’t illegal because they are fight stopping. They are illegalized to appease the general public of vicious viewing.
The old UFC was not dominated by one strike. Why do you think these new currently adapting fighters would be?
Wrestlers wont be able to Lay and Pray or take weak shots. Guys on their backs cant lay their all day. What do you really have to complain about?
You can headkick someone’s face with your shin. Ugh Hello?
Stomps add little to nothing to the sport just opens up a chance for guys to get seriously injured. As i said there isnt enough reward for the risk involved.
I am give or take on soccer kicks, add them but they don’t really add much besides as you said about wrestlers who are trying to recover are able to get smashed in the face.
Based on your opinion. Name when and where fighters have received more damage from foot stomps than any other strikes and I will agree with you. You have no proof. Obviously they look dangerous. So does a Headkick with the SHIN TO YOUR HEAD. Prove do not with examples and examples of fights where it has done more damage.
Stomps add a whole lot my friend. You aren’t seeing the big picture. It takes another manipulation of the rules out of play. Thales Leites would have never been with this rule.
Soccer kicks do not cause anymore damage than any other fight ending attack. Who exactly has been seriously injured?
You also take away a small wrestling advantage ( sloppy lazy shots) Are you a real fan?
In Pride Crocop beats Ron Waterman in UFC Waterman beats CROCop . Waterman is fine isnt he?
settle down big rig
Yes i am a true fan thanks for the concern.
Yes a stomp will stop guys from laying around waiting for the ground game to magically happen but overall no i believe thry are not worth the risk that comes with stomping on another human beings head. One thing you will see alot more of with stomps is concussions. Concussions are a big problem that will come along now as it is so leaving out stomps is a good idea if you feel different thats your opnion just dont get so butt hurt over it.
As i have said i am give or take on soccer kicks. If they add them cool if they don’t i’m fine with that too.
If i could find some pride Medical records from the fights i would gladly show you that there must have been quite a few concussion over there but i don’t so all i have to go on is logic in which is this. Head on matt or against cage with no where to go paired with blunt force blows such as stomps ends with concussions.
Call me old school but
I think PRIDE had it right. No elbows allowed, cuts are the worst way to win a fight. Knees, soccer kicks and stomps all should be brought (back) in. While stomps may look brutal there really isn’t any physics that back the assumption that stomps are more dangerous than a punch to the head to a downed opponent. If a fighter can use foot stomps why can’t they stomp the head? If they were that dangerous fighters would be suffering from broken feet all the time, and if someone can link me to a fight where a fighter had his foot shattered and can’t continue I’ll eat my hat…. (queue all the nutty stats guys out there to make me eat a hat)
The only reason I can see for the UFC in particular for not allowing stomps is because the sport isn’t mainstream yet and stomps lead to the old Human cock fighting “argument” (and I use that term VERY loosely) .
foot stomps happen with very little force due to the fact most of the time the guys are tied up on the fence and use the stomps to try and force the guy on the inside to move to open up for a take down or something.
A stomp on a downed fighter is different in that the stomper has all the leverage to throw stomps on the full force on someones head. As i stated above if a persons head is on the mat with no where to go and it gets stomped on then your looking at a rise in concussions.
Yea I can see how the stomps could be looked at by the public. So I understand why they don’t include them. But how the mainstream sees A headkick different than a soccer stomp is beyond me.
Regardless 12 to 6 elbows and knees to a downed opponent should be the next step those are just dumb
Even though I'm a fan of soccer kicks and stomps
think of something like in American History X where they do the curb stomp. Had he just punched him would it have been as dramatic?
I’ll be the first one to say I’ll sacrifice stomps in order to get the sport more mainstream, we can always adjust the rules later, but this sport deserves to be bigger than boxing right now and if a few things have to excluded I say so be it.
I understand your point but
The stomp from American History X is really nothing like any stomp that would occur in an MMA match.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
Completely agree
but think about what the average American fan has seen about foot stomps…..not much and they do LOOK brutal, but in all honesty they aren’t. We see things a but we as mma fans see things differently than do the average onlookers.
Me2… elbows and knees asap though… These are big in regards to how a fight goes.. Stomps I can let go of for now.
Yea MMA is not even 1/10th any major sport yet so lets just get in there first. But who’s gunna notice 12 to 6 or knees to a downed opponent. ANything on the ground make any mainstreamer go blind so we can sneak those right in you no?
good work!!interesting stuff..
if there is only 12 fights with cut stoppages could you list the 12 fights. for some reason it seems pretty low of a number but probably makes sense.
also.. if only 1.7% of fights get stopped by cuts and elbows arent all of em.. wouldnt that mean that elbows when they do cut can stop fights.. but arent a high percentage finish?
also.. if only 1.7% of fights get stopped by cuts and elbows arent all of em.. wouldnt that mean that elbows when they do cut can stop fights.. but arent a high percentage finish?like armbars are 12% of finishes.. does that mean that 6-8 x more armbars are attempted than elbow cut attempts.. otherwise armbars are ahigher percentage technique.
also.. if only 1.7% of fights get stopped by cuts and elbows arent all of em.. wouldnt that mean that elbows when they do cut can stop fights.. but arent a high percentage finish?like armbars are 12% of finishes.. does that mean that 6-8 x more armbars are attempted than elbow cut attempts.. otherwise armbars are ahigher percentage technique.is what i wrote even understandable?
The fights are as follows
UFC 36 – Evan Tanner vs Elvis Sinosic, it was an elbow.
UFC 39 – Sean Sherk vs Benji Radach, Forearm actually caused the cut but put it in with elbow
UFC 40 – Matt Hughes vs Gil Castillo – head bunt caused fight ending cut
UFC 61 – Gilbert Aldana vs. Cheick Kongo – Knees and Joe Stevenson Vs Yves Edwards, Elbows
UFC 78 – Thagio Alves vs Chris Lytle, cut via punch
UFC 101, Jesse Lennox vs Danillo Villefort cut via head bunt
UFC 105, Aaron Riley vs Ross person, due to knees
UFC 107, Sanchez vs Penn, shin kick
UFC 110, Bonnar vs Polish experment, cut via head bunt
you gotta consider that one of the main reasons stomps are illegal is because in pride, you could kind of roll out of your opponent’s stomps, but in a cage, you cannot. Also, we need a positive image, and wand stomping on helpless opponents is bad. I wonder how hesitant a fighter would be to stomp a fighter like BJ penn, shinya aoki or maia for fear of being leg locked
First of all great post, I’m sure it took a lot of work to track these down and watch how they were cut. Curious though, are you only counting fights that were ended mid round by a cut and not between rounds? BTW, you listed 10, wondering if you left out a few (not trying to be a dick): ufc 45 tank vs cabbage, ufc46 couture vs belfort, ufc55 riggs vs lytle, ufc77 belcher vs starnes
The rules I want added/changed are allowing knees to the head on the ground and allowing kicks to the head when both fighters are on the ground. I mean if you can knock out a human with that scorpion kick Anderson Silva used on Okami then you deserve to win the fight.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
The issues for me with elbows aren't the cuts as much as the removal of skill
If a fighter can’t elbow a guy from a g’n’p position, he has to either punch or look for other means of ending the fight. Other means really means BJJ and submissions. To me that adds more of an element of skill to the fight.
As much as I love GSP, watching him end his fights with Hughes and Sherk via elbow strikes just doesn’t do it for me. I want to see more skill. Yeah that makes it less like a “real” fight but it’s what I like to see.
Re PRIDE stomps. 3 points. 1- what I didn’t like is guys like Yvel and Wand held the ropes as they did their stomps. That isn’t cool (except it was cool in Japan). 2- as was mentioned above, in a ring there is a place to go with your head i.e. outside the ring, more difficult to get out of the way when up against the cage. 3- I honestly don’t think stomps would or did cause many fight ending issues but they do just look barbaric and really they don’t add much to a fight so why even bother?
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