Wanderlei Silva and What It Means for a Fighter to Be "Done"
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2010 1:04 PM EST
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Heading into UFC 110, a lot of fighters were declared "done." Mirko CroCop, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, and Wanderlei Silva all had a lot to prove. Surprisingly, Silva put on the best performance of the 3. To be sure, none of these guys are even remotely as dominant as they were at one point, but what exactly does it mean to be done? Wanderlei Silva is certainly not done as a fan favorite. He's certainly not done as a competitive fighter in the top MMA organization in the world; he just defeated Michael Bisping, who is a more than capable fighter. He's done dominating divisions and going on reigns of terror, but does that mean he should have to retire? I think not.
As a Wanderlei Silva fan, what I saw Saturday night was heartening. No, he is never going to be the dominant monster of old ever again. Some fans can't bear to watch a Wanderlei Silva who isn't scaring his opponents to death before the fight starts, and for them the idea of watching him fight even fights with Michael Bisping is a travesty. From my perspective, hanging onto that kind of nostalgia is really a big waste of time and negative energy. Wanderlei Silva probably only has a limited time left in which he can even be competitive in the UFC; isn't it a better idea to just appreciate it while it lasts instead of pining for an era of dominance over hand-picked and undermatched opponents?
The problem for Silva right now is his chin more than anything else. In the old days he was unafraid to wade in wildly, now he’s a lot more cautious after being knocked out a few times. I do think he has the skills to be a strong top 10 middleweight in the UFC, even without his old ability to take damage. He has nice leg kicks, and his ability to instantly change a fight with a big shot is something his opponents won’t take lightly.
Last night sold me on the fact that Wanderlei Silva is not done. At 185 he was moving a lot better than he was against Franklin, and for the first time in his UFC career he went 3 rounds without looking gassed. He also moved a lot faster than he did against Franklin, and wasn't nearly as flat-footed. 185 is obviously the right size for him at this point in his career, and the division could use his star power.
There are a number of interesting fights for Silva at middleweight. A potential clash with Akiyama only makes sense to me if it’s in Japan, as it’s really only going to be a big deal to Japanese fans. Silva won’t fight Demian Maia, but he could potentially rematch Vitor Belfort or fight Chael Sonnen. The latter could make for a very entertaining season of The Ultimate Fighter.
My first choice for Silva is a fight with Nate Marquardt. Nate is a top 5 middleweight with a good all-around game, and a win or loss to Marquardt would really tell us a lot about where Silva stands at 185. Nate really prefers to stand in his fights as of late, so it could potentially be a very explosive fight.
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of all the fighters who were questioned going into the fight
id say jardines the only one who should call it quits
the guys just been ko’d way too many times recently
Really?
I’ll probably get flamed for this..but I was thinking Big Nog needs to hang’em up. The guy is a legend don’t get me wrong but he’s not what he used to be. And i’m not just talking about the Cain fight, although I think the same would happen if he stepped in with another younger faster fighter (JDS, Lesnar?).
People proclaimed he was back when he beat Couture…but come on. They are both over the hill.
by HappyLittleTreez on Feb 23, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Nog is old...
But being done and being old are two different things. I think Big Nog could fight Crocop, and both men would put on a great show, although we all know they won’t be champion again in their career. Losing to guys like Cain, Mir, and the other “big boys” of the HW division…there’s no shame in that.
I think Nog will rally back one last time, beat a few guys in the top 15, and call it a day. I don’t doubt there’s still a handful of competitive fights left for him, and he at least deserves the chance to see if he can rebound from this loss.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Feb 23, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
What if he gets another KO similar to this one, or the Mir one...
in one of his next 2 fights?
I’d prefer not to see a legend get crippled. The guy has way too much to give to the sport still OUTSIDE of fighting that I would had to see him take unnecessary damage in a vain attempt to prove competitiveness.
That was my reasoning as well.
Sure he could compete and possibly win. But he could just as easily also get KTFO again too. He should stick to training and being an ambassador for the sport.
by HappyLittleTreez on Feb 23, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
id like to see nog take a few more fights
but i dont wanna see him get ko’d like that again the guy has taken an absolute beating throughout his career and really id say a cro cop fight and maybe one more then he should hang it up
Marquardt Too Much
I’d give Wand someon like Kendall Grove. Both have equally suspect chins.
with Wand’s contract, you can’t give him Grove. That’s not a headliner kind of fight.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Feb 23, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
It can’t be a fighter like Grove.
He’s making too much money for that, and a loss to a fighter of that caliber is far more damaging and only elevates a guy who is never going to be a contender or draw.
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
The whole idea of a fighter being done highlights an interesting difference between individual sports — especially combat sports — and team sports. In team sports, an athlete can be well past his most productive years and still contribute at a very high level, even helping his teams win championships. The Ray Allen who helped the Celtics win the NBA Finals in 2008 was maybe 75 percent of Allen at his prime, but he still played a critical role.
In individual sports, and especially in combat sports, where the potential to incur lasting damage only increases as fighters get older and less effective, it’s harder to make a case for past-due fighters wringing every last ounce out of their careers. On one hand, it’s hard to tell a world class competitor like Wand to hang up the gloves, but on the other, if he’s never again going to be able to compete with the elite of his division, what’s the point?
If I were advising Silva, I’d be steering him toward calling it an excellent career.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
first point you made was good, how are you going to tell a guy whos 33 and just beat a top 15 MW that he needs to retire? thats just dumb, sorry
by Austin Martin on Feb 23, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
You’re leaving out the most important factor in advising a fighter—money.
Wanderlei Silva has a fat contract with the UFC. He makes more than is disclosed. There’s no reason while he is competitive with good fighters and entertaining fans he should stop making over a million dollars a year just to satisfy old school fans that want to remember his days of dominance. It makes no sense at all.
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
exactly, even if he’s not at the top, he still makes BANK. noone walks away from that kind of money.
by Austin Martin on Feb 23, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Not only that, put yourself in an agent or lawyer’s shoes representing Wanderlei Silva.
Fighting is the main way the guy makes money. It’s also the thing he loves to do more than anything. What idiot representative other than a keyboard warrior is going to tell him to retire? Especially when he just beat Michael Bisping and fought a close fight with Rich Franklin?
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
THANK YOU.
while we’re at it can we put the “suspect” chin talk to rest? He’s not close to retirement and these 3 KOs were a result of shoddy defense against heavy handed people. he fought rich and chuck (while chuck was relevant) to decisions, and they are both capable of KOing people and both landed on him. He’s still top 20 fighters in the world and can be competitive with elite fighters at both weight classes. most of this talk is nonsense.
and in response to your article, i’ve been sayign that i would like to see him vs nate.. its a good matchup except that wand doesnt want to fight silva, so again the brazilian love leaves a cluster F with matchups at the top of two divisions
by Austin Martin on Feb 23, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
The money point is fair enough
But I still think that once a fighter starts to lose a step, and especially when they start taking a lot more abuse, they should think about retiring. As a boxing fan, I’ve seen too many guys who waited too long to stop grinding out paychecks in the ring.
Now it may be fair to say this point doesn’t apply to Silva yet. I was thinking more about the question of a fighter being done, than about Wand specifically (though he does fit the bill of a guy who seems to be taking a lot more punishment). He’s still probably better than all but the cream of the division, but it’s way different to be on your way up, than on your way down.
As for his representatives, since most of them get paid only when he fights, I suspect none of them will tell him to retire, even if he gets put to sleep a couple more times. But that doesn’t necessarily mean its a bad idea.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Wand is not “grinding out paychecks”, he just beat a very good fighter.
by ufc4 on Feb 23, 2010 3:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Right, but I think I already conceded that point. The original poster makes a good argument about Wand not being done yet, despite the fact that his best days as a fighter are clearly behind him.
The post was about determining when a fighter is “done” and my whole point is that there are a lot of really good reasons for fighters not to milk every last dime out of the tail ends of their careers.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Hmm
I bet Wand makes more in Endorsements and his Gym a year than fighting. It’s all gravy.
Dood is a megastar the world over before MMA was even a blip in America. He’s showing off shorts in FIGHT magazine this month.
Wand is a powerful Brand, just like Fedor. And just because johnny-come-lately UFC fans are pissing and moaning that they aren’t getting first round knockouts of elite guys, doesn’t mean Wand is finished, losing it, or done.
I think he’ll slowly diversify his game while he slows down a bit. Save his flurries for when he’s inside. Just like he did with Bisping he held back the fury until he was in range. I think that shows growth when you’re fighting top tier guys.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by At Least On Paper on Feb 23, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Wandy brand > Fedor band.
The world rode Wandy nuts in PRIDE as he wen undefeated in 20 something fights. He beat the best time after time after time. Wandy has 10,000x more personality which is what helps sell his brand.
Nail on the head…Having moved to America and recently started his gym/Fight Team, Wand is just settling into a new time in his life. He’s getting paid really well, is capable of headlining, and I’m sure he also wants to build a name for his gym, and for himself among newer fans that may wonder where all the hype around him comes from. He looks pretty reinvigorated, and there are reasons, like the nasal surgery, return to Rafael Cordeiro, and the cardio he showed against Bisping, to think that he’s got a good chance of beating most of the MW’s. Titles aren’t everything…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 23, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Wanderlei has been my favorite fighter since the first soccer kick and brutal knees I saw from him. He is the sole reason why I am now addicted to mma. I may be just biased but I think he looked incredible, he was in a must win situation and he went out and executed a great gameplan. Those little glimpses of old Wandi and the end of the rounds were incredible to see and I believe the fight was a great thing for him. He now has some confidence to build on, his cardio looked the best ive seen it looked in ages, his surgery appeared to be a great success, and he was able to scramble up to his feet every time bisping took him down. I would love to see Wand vs Marquardt, Nate has something to prove now after getting manhandled by Sonnen and Wand is going to be looking for a step up in competition.
WAR WAND
I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick some ass....and I'm all out of bubblegum.
Oops
Anyways, we’re used to weight classes, but what about broad age classes? Mabye a “legends” category where these older fighters could fight each other in an environment that is more competitive for them.
that makes no sense. and plus, bisping and wand were the same age. in fact, hendo is almost 40 and is still considered two 2 MW. age doesn’t matter.
by Austin Martin on Feb 23, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
age matters much less than the beatings fighters have taken in their career
big nog and lil nog are the same exact age but lil nog has alot left cause he hasnt been involved in the wars that big nog has that have left him a shell of his former self
Wand vs Vitor/Nate/Chael all are problematic since all three are in title contention. It would be the right sort of headline fight and pay for Wand, but it wouldn’t make sense for the division.
Wand vs Yushin would be a good fight to figure out where both are in the division, but Okami brings 0 drawing power, unless Chael helps a bit.
Wand vs Akiyama seems like the way to go, but I agree with Rome, that would be best served as a headliner when UFC hits Japan. Only Dana & Co know how possible such a fight would be, so if its on the less potential side, then book it in the states. Increase Akiyama’s draw power through the more populare Wand, and make it a grudge match.
Nate isn’t exactly at the top of the title heap at the moment. Given Anderson’s desire to fight at 205 as well, his loss added at least another year to his title hunt if he keeps winning. You could hold Nate out to fight Vitor upon return I suppose.
by Michael Rome on Feb 23, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Wanderlei is pretty probably done as a title contender – but it’s not the end of the world. He’s moved into the “entertaining, fun fights” portion of his career, and he looks like he’s having a good time doing it.
The real question that fight brought to my mind wasn’t “Is Wanderlei done?” but “How far can Michael Bisping go?” I’d the UFC to match Bisping up with Cote, Belcher, or Maia but can’t see him getting by Sonnen, Marquardt, or Belfort.
You think he'll do well against Maia?
Demian is a constant threat for a SOTN finish. Bisping is a constant threat of… not a whole lot. His finishing ability is pretty limited given his unremarkable power, wrestling, and BJJ (especially compared to Maia). his GNP instinct looked great against Kang, but that’s it. He’d leave that fight tied in a knot.
Loser of Cote vs. Belcher is a good fight for him, or Nate Quarry.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I like the winner of Cote vs. Belcher as a good fight for Wandy
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 23, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I meant for Bisping.
I agree with you completely. Cote would be a great brawl, and Belcher would be interesting as well.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Sry
was just zipping down the comments and didn’t realize what this particular thread was about. I like the Nate Quarry fight for Bisping
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 23, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I personally hold Chael, Nate, and Demian equal in terms of title contention. They form a fun little logic circle of each beating the other. Though in terms of fight quality, Nate destroyed Demian and Demian demolished Chael. Chael definitely won his fight over Nate, but it was not a complete drubbing; Chael, in fact, took more damage. Nate is in the unfortunate position of simply having lost most recently.
Actually, Nate vs Vitor sounds like a great matchup. I was toying with the idea before I posted, but if I were MMA God and could make the fights I want to see, it would be Chael/Maia rematch, Nate/Vitor reckoning match.
I’d like to see Vitor vs. Nate as well. Nate needs a big win to get momentum again, and Vitor looks to be at the back of the line behind Chael and Maia, where a title shot is concerned. All depends on how soon Vitor will be ready to fight again.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 23, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think...
People are overrating Chael because Nate had no ground game.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by At Least On Paper on Feb 23, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Why is everyone so degrading of Wanderlei Silva all of a sudden. I think he has a good chance against any middleweight in the world not named Anderson Silva, and that is still a fight I would love to see. So all this “he will never challenge for the title” crap needs to stop. The middleweight division just got another serious contender.
I don't care about Wandy's past...
as glorious as it was, it’s over and done with. What I care about is right now, and right now, Wandy is putting on some fucking awesome fights. Even in his losses, he’s exciting. How can anyone think the dude should retire when he just did this to Bisping:
So long as he can still do that, I hope he fights forever!
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
awww...
he just loves that rape choke doesn’t he.
by HappyLittleTreez on Feb 23, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
WANDERLEIIIII!!! Bisping’s getting himself quite the lowlight reel!
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 23, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Standing Rape Choke: Gets 'em every time!
Personally I think Sexyama-Wanderlei is the only way to go.
Big Asian pop. in Vancouver, Beauty vs. the Beast, 2 guys who are in the same vicinity rankings-wise.
I love the idea of Sexyama vs Wanderlei. That’s a very winnable fight for both dudes. Though it only really makes sense if the UFC ends up holding an event in Japan. Or I suppose co-main event would be nice with an established headliner.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
So long as he can still do that, I hope he fights forever!
Amen!
I don’t know why we are calling quits for a fighter who just won! I guess Bisping should retire too!
Wanderlei did look good against Bisping. The speed and cardio was there. The aggression was less than the Pride Axe Murderer but we should expect that everytime he fights from now on. As Rome said, his chin isnt what it used to be and he has to fight smart. There is some hope for another run of success people!
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
I blame the UFC rules for the lack of Love.
If Wand could kick on the ground he would have beat Bisping when he got him down the first time. Or the second.
Anyway, he needs a little time to settle in and flex his muscles.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by At Least On Paper on Feb 23, 2010 5:33 PM EST reply actions
I think all this talk about Wandy being done is retarded, a few KOs and some tough losses and everyone starts to write him off as washed up. but i think we all saw saturday night that he can still bring it and can be a legit force at 185
I’d like to see him against Akiyama and if he gets by him he should get a top contender like Nate or Chael to see if he can hang at the top of the division
and i certainly wouldn’t be opposed to a rematch between him and vitor depending on how things go with him when he returns from his injury and whether he beats anderson or not, i think if we were ever to see vintage axe murderer again it would be in a fight with belfort
No more Koes for Wand.. Give him the Lidell treatment. Protect Wand.
Let Wand fight Akiyama and Belcher first. Let him get some confidence back. He needs time to regroup. He can fight those two within this year. Based on how he does and how the division is doing then maybe he gets Nate, Okami , Sonnen. One win against a top 5 guys he can go for the belt.
no way man u must not be a wand fan … Only do that to wand if he gets thru all the middle of the road guys first.. Belfort has to be for number 1 contender or dont make it
I don’t know if you were referring to me or not but I’m a huge Wandy fan, he was the fighter that originally got me really interested in MMA when I saw him fight Sakuraba at Pride 13. I was only 11 at the time and haven’t gone a day without enjoying some form off MMA since
and I agree if he does fight belfort it should be for the #1 contender spot, or maybe even by that time for the title if vitor beats anderson or anderson decides to stay at LHW permanently by then
Old as in “damage taken over the years that results in skills deteriorating”. Dude’s been fighting over 10 years…
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
I meant to quote the one person that said that Nog is old and there is a difference between old and done.
Me…I’m not ready to write him off just yet.
And NO, I am not saying he is Randy or anything, but I remember all the people writing him off before he came back and fought Syliva after some bad losses and “intelligent fight fans” actually said he had zero business and would be lucky if he didn’t end up seriously hurt.
I gotta see him fight again. He might not get back to the belt, but does that mean someone should stop fighting if they have no chance at getting a belt. Some are really content at being a gatekeeper and do a good job at it.
:( Why does everyone forget Alan Belcher?
I think Wanderlei-Belcher would be the best fight at this point, with the winner stepping up to fight one of the top 5 guys in the division
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