Rumors of Fedor Emelianenko vs Brock Lesnar in the UFC Swirl as Strikeforce Fails to Control the Narrative
by Kid Nate on Feb 20, 2010 12:21 PM EST
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Poor Strikeforce is overmatched at every turn it seems. First their rather anemic live gate at Strikeforce : Miami drew heat from Zach Arnold:
Recently, there were reports regarding the lousy business that the Strikeforce event did in Florida on Pro Bowl Weekend. The Observer reported a gate of around $320,000 and only $8,000 of that was on merchandise sales. $8,000. Holy $^%! When you take a look at the payroll for fighters on the show and how much some of the talent cost, it is real hard to see how the math proved to be favorable after this event was over.
The number to focus on is that $8,000 merchandise number. That is atrocious. It’s illuminating on a couple of levels:
- Strikeforce has no brand power and people don’t watch the Strikeforce shows because it’s Strikeforce. This is a long-term losing strategy.
The quandary SF is in is that a move to PPV will not likely prove to be a winner if they simply don’t have the brand power to pull it off. You’re left with CBS/Showtime financing and if it requires heavy gimmicks to attract some attention, then you can’t build long-term brand power with constant short-term fixes (see: Herschel Walker). When various sports media outlets covered Walker’s fight and the Rex Ryan middle-finger incident, ESPN commentators and hosts kept calling it "the Miami MMA show." Strikeforce as a brand was not on anyone’s mind.- I remember doing a long transcription of an interview Dan Henderson did on Sherdog right after he signed with Strikeforce and he mentioned that one of the big attractive points he saw with SF was their ability to let him sell Clinch Gear products at SF shows. Well, if SF is generating $8,000 for merchandise at a show, all I can say is that selling Clinch Gear merchandise will not prove to be a wildly profitable venture for him.
While the pairing of Emelianenko and Werdum is expected to materialize, another source told MMA Fighting that with eight weeks remaining until the possible fight date, Emelianenko has not yet begun his training, and is not expected to do so until he gets official word of the date. The source said Emelianenko would prefer eight weeks of notice, but could still emerge fully prepared with six weeks.
Fedor Emelianenko not fighting on the April CBS card and Jerry Millen released from M1 rumors debunked:
"As Vadim Finkelchtein just told me in a live telephone conversation no changes regarding the participation of Fedor Emelianenko in his fight in April, and about Jerry Millen and M-1, no changes. There is no understanding of the source of misinformation."
Then Chris Pappas of Nashville MMA emerged with this rumor on his twitter feed:
"Just to recap. Strikeforce in Nashville 4/17. CBS. No Fedor. Hendo vs Shields. Good chance Herschel Walker and Bobby Lashley on card."
All of these rumors are most definitely NOT to be taken seriously, but they show the way that mis- and disinformation can multiply when a promotion like Strikeforce isn't laying out a clear narrative by making official event announcements in a timely manner.
More Strikeforce in April Coverage
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I think SF might have been better pairing up with Affliction than selling their soul to CBS/Showtime.
by ufc4 on Feb 20, 2010 12:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Affliction wouldn’t have sold out to the UFC if they’d joined up with SF.
by ufc4 on Feb 20, 2010 1:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Affliction wouldn’t have gone for it, they wanted to get back with the UFC more than they wanted to promote fights.
From what I understand Affliction called SF before Zuffa.
by ufc4 on Feb 20, 2010 2:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I tend to agree that Showtime is a bad business partner. I have heard very little good about their dealings, whether from inside sources or internet reports.
As for the rest, it may not be true, but…smoke=fire of some sort.
What’s so bad about Showtime as a business partner? That they don’t approve the fights that we might want to see, yet are helping to front the money for bigger name fighters?
Showtime has taken control of Strikeforce’s matchmaking so instead of bouts that have relevance, you get bouts for ratings.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Feb 20, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Do you think Fedor/Werdum is really the HW matchup with the most relevance? Or how about gems like Lashley/Sims and Walker/Nagy? For as entertaining a fight as it was, how was Cung Le/Scott Smith relevant to anything other than burning off another one of SF’s few draws?
Sometimes you make the fights that you can, rather than the fights that we wish could be made, because of injuries, logistics, and the like. Affliction tried to make Fedor-Barnett, but it didn’t work out. UFC tried to make Silva-Belfort, that didn’t work out. You work with what you have been given. At the end of the day, I get to see Fedor fight on free TV.
The difference is when Silva/Belfort didn’t work out, the UFC had a solid B option. If Fedor/Werdum is your A option, what do you do if Werdum gets hurt and pulls out? Or worse, what if Fedor has to pull out of the fight?
Yeah, thanks for your take, Rumsfeld.
by yukkurishiteittene on Feb 20, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
this, plus their negotiations are just bad. They have far to much influence over what happens on the card, when they aren’t really qualified for those decisions. In other words, SF would be putting on better shows and doing business in a different way, probably better, if Showtime was not involved at that level.
One of my instructors fought on one of their cards, and the contract was negotiated by a Showtime exec, who knew little about mma and the pay. He tried to screw him over and the negotiations got very personal. This is just an example.
Strikeforce is quickly going from the hip little organization that always made money to being zombie EliteXC and that doesn’t seem like much of a recipe for success. Have to wonder if that change is because of Showtime pulling the strings behind the scenes?
EliteXC, if they didn’t blow through $45 million making Shitty acquisitions, and didn’t put Kimbo Slice at the forefront of there shows, probably would have stayed in business. Remember, it was the Petruzelli loss and the StandGate fiasco that kept CBS from giving them the cash infusion that would’ve kept them afloat and likely doing what Strikeforce is doing now…just with a lot more turmoil behind the scenes.
I don’t see how relying on CBS to give you “cash infusions” is a healthy business model with or without a controversy.
Well, they had this ambitious plan of buying up smaller organizations to turn them into feeder promotions for EliteXC. They wanted to invest money in the short term to set up infrastructure that could exist in the long term. Where they probably messed up was that they didn’t spend more, and try to get the IFL and Affliction under its banner. Then they could have possibly done Kimbo-Fedor, and maximized the benefits from Kimbo’s inevitable demise.
EliteXC on Showtime started out a lot better than just throwing Kimbo Slice at us.They had 6 events before Kimbo and 8 before Kimbo headlined. Yea EliteXC was full of suck from the very beginning but Strikeforce was a great company that was doing really well before they got into bed with Showtime/CBS and as they have grown their products seems to be looking more and more like EliteXC to me(yes just my opinion). Obviously with Showtime doing all the production and calling a lot of the shots from behind the scenes there will be similarities but it’s the simularities in problems that are arising that worries me. I don’t want to see them go down that same path.
I guess Strikeforce really isn’t in another league after all. How can they give us sport or spectacle if they can’t even book a damn venue?
So…when should we start a dead pool on SF’s demise? If they can’t control their own narrative, that’s more than just a PR problem.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 20, 2010 12:34 PM EST reply actions
Over their heads
Frankly at the end of the day, Coker and co. are in over their heads and snakes like Showtime, M-1 and CBS are taking advantage of them. If Coker was smart he’d take back control of HIS promotion before these jackals ruin the good thing he has/had going.
Yeah, I think Coker sort of got into bed with some real vultures. I personally don’t see it getting any better.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
I think Coker
started believing all the hype and bit the golden apple. Now he has soo many Chiefs and not enough Indians. Its unfortunate.
The CBS Corporation, a publicly-traded, billion-dollar corporation, is run by SNAKES now?
And as for M-1, they come with the Fedor package.
Network television in general is run by snakes, so yes. You seem very bent on defending things that are very obviously bad business decisions.
No, I just scoff at the idea that the Network Television business is filled with snakes, but Fight Promoting business isn’t.
I never said one is better than the other. But if you just have one snake in the room (i/e the promoter) getting fat, then you’re usually okay, but if you have a room full of snakes trying to eat each other, nobody is going to win.
SF with a “Fedor Package” is like district 9 alien weapon. The people know its valueable and its powerful but fonr the life of them cannot get it to work right
by Riley_96 on Feb 20, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Strikeforce IS in another league than the WEC
whether they succeed or not, they’re attempting to play at the highest levels and WEC is not. As fun as Bantamweight and featherweight fights are — and the WEC indisputably has the best in the game at those weights — heavyweight is the big leagues.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Sorry, I don’t buy this at all. How is the shallowest, least talented weight division in the sport the big leagues?
then we disagree
If the WEC is your idea of a top tier marquee level promotion then I don’t know what to tell you.
Strikeforce may be failing to succeed as a major league promotion, but that’s what they are. Signing fighters like Fedor and Dan Henderson away from the UFC is not the move of a promotion that wants to be junior varsity.
Hershel Walker got the kind of sports media attention that the WEC will never get — and that the UFC rarely gets. Whether that’s a good thing in the end or not is debatable.
Here’s a definition since you’re obviously slow.
Major league mma: UFC, Strikeforce, DREAM
features top tier fighters in the big five marquee weight classes, marketed at the highest promotional levels (CBS, PPV, network TV in Japan)
Minor league mma: WEC, King of the Cage, Bellator
features lesser fighters or the smaller weight divisions, minor league promotional outlets (ie Versus vs CBS)
The WEC is clearly at the very top of the minor leagues, and other than their very ill-advised attempt to do PPV in April they are not seriously attempting to be a major league promotion.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
First off, I don’t appreciate the insults as I have not responded to you in any kind of condescending way.
Perhaps I should phrase my comment differently. Yes I appreciate what the big marquee weight classes are, I appreciate what the reality of the fight game is, but in saying that, I don’t understand how you have talent deep divisions like 145 and 135 and they can’t get an ounce of attention while a division like HW which usually features fights of middling quality is the spotlight division of the sport.
As for the minor leagues versus the big leagues, I don’t think anyone other than the UFC can lay claim to being the big leagues right now. Strikeforce is to the UFC what the WHL was to the NHL.
forgive me for being rude
I’m tired of getting shit over that comment, which is really self-evident.
WEC and Strikeforce are not direct competitors.
UFC and Strikeforce are.
Strikeforce may be getting their butts kicked, but they’re in the UFC’s league.
BloodyElbow gives WEC exceptionally prominent coverage, especially when you consider they are NOT a traffic draw for us. We love the WEC, they put on a great product and we are happy they’re there.
But that doesn’t make them a major-league promotion.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Feb 20, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I would rec’d you for agreeing with your argument and for being polite enough to apologize.
But I’m on my mobile so you’re shit out of luck.
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 2:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I appreciate the apology Nate. While I don’t always agree with you, I enjoy your articles and I know you get a lot of crap here, and that wasn’t my intention.
So:
Strikeforce = Chicago Cubs
UFC = Yankees
They are both in the same league, but one kicks the other’s ass a lot.
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
I was going to say the same thing but
Use the Yankees and the Royals as my comparison. Yes, they are both in the big leagues but one has an enormous amount of money and is run by smart baseball men and the other doesn’t have either of those luxuries. Although the Royals front office is starting to come around a bit. I think that Strikeforce is in the big leagues trying to prove they belong. After being at the Miami show I just don’t see it happening. It was good and all but it wasn’t something that I walked away from going “WOW! That was amazing!”
As for the merchandise at the show, I only saw one booth but I didn’t venture very far from the beer stand and the bathroom and my seat so maybe there were more. But the merchandise I saw looked like it was made on zazzle or something. Besides, who really wants a strikeforce shirt? I might have bought a Fedor shirt but there weren’t enough booths around and they were taken down before the fights let out.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Plus it takes an hour and a half to get in the door so instead of walking around and looking at shit before the fights start and maybe buying something by the time you get to your seat you’ve missed two fights already.
by ufc4 on Feb 20, 2010 2:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Great point
We were one of the first ones there and we had to rush to our seats to see the first prelim fight.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Yankees = American League / Cubs = National League
Oh you silly Canadian.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 20, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
BloodyElbow gives WEC exceptionally prominent coverage, especially when you consider they are NOT a traffic draw for us
I don’t want to get into ‘another league’ business, as I said my piece at the time and have since dropped the issue.
That aside, since you mentioned traffic draws at BE, does Strikeforce draw traffic to the site? I suspect the Herschel Walker sideshow drew some incremental eyeballs, but aside from that, does Strikeforce really create spikes in BE’s traffic?
My question is,
is it Nick Diaz or the weed? That is a serious question btw. People are passionate about pot.
that's an important question
and rest assured we’ll keep looking for answers!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I am a Diaz fan
but not a pot fan, maybe I am the only one. I just don’t think Nick would pull that kind of traffic on his own.
I love Nicks fights, his ability, his tough background, his I don’t give a shit attitude but why spit in the face of the commission?
In my perfect world, he would show up, fight, piss clean and not talk. He could smoke enough weed to kill a horse between fights, I wouldn’t care.
Strikeforce on its own does not draw fans
the UFC has a very marketable brand and can sell fights just by saying they’re in the UFC
SF does not at all they might as well be called the promotion that has fedor, mousasi, henderson, and a few other good fighters
the major difference is in the UFC the UFC brand is bigger and much more important than the fighters, in SF the fighters are more important and bigger than the brand
by milk72 on Feb 20, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the problem is vagueness over “another league”. SF is certainly playing in the majors, pimping their HW fighters, trying to compete with the UFC and DREAM, while WEC is a minor league. However, the quality of WEC events usually far exceeds SF. No squash matches, no freak fights (at least I can’t think of any right now), no promotional shenanigans like with Lashley, Shaolin, or their April event.
I guess it depends on whether being in “another league” is a reference to promotional values or quality.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 20, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
After these last
2 comments, I am beginning to understand why you wrote the original article. And it makes sense. No matter how shitty the product/production is, they are attempting to compete on the big stage. With the likes of Fedor and Hendo they are making a push at the UFC. They (Strikeforce) may not have the fighters, money, PPV sales, advertising streams, or production abilities of a UFC but they are trying.
I guess it is kind of a case of bringing a knife to a gun fight. They might get slaughtered but they are in the fight.
Another point is that as long as the UFC and WEC share a parent company, there will be a degree of tension in the promotional efforts. WEC, as UFC’s Little Brother, won’t be viewed as Major Leagues, or with major league aspirations, because its owners and business partners will consistently prefer to do business with the UFC instead. And if the weight classes at the forefront of the WEC got big enough, they’d likely be absorbed into the UFC.
Here’s a definition since you’re obviously slow.
wow. easy big fella.
by BradCr on Feb 20, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Sometimes I marvel at the fact that you haven’t completely lost it yet. Dealing with all of us has to seem like being a kindergarten teacher sometimes.
You have something on your moustache . I donno , something brown…
by JoelMan on Feb 20, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just curious, when did Strikeforce announce the date and venue of their last CBS show…you know, the one that people thought was disorganized and thrown together before?
I beleve it was September 17th. The fight was Nov 7th.
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 12:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
September 17th was the first official announcement I remember seeing for the November 7th CBS card, so that was about 7 and a half weeks out. We are now right at 6 weeks out from April (8 weeks from April 17th, which was the rumored date). Even if they announce it in the next week they are sitting at the same last minute throwing it together level they were at last time around, of course announcing a date and actually announcing the booking of the full show are two separate things, September 17th of last year the only fight booked was Fedor vs Rogers, it took them weeks after that to fill out the card.
So this time around, we have a good idea what fights we’re going to see, but they haven’t been officially signed or booked. If they were able to properly promote the card in 7 weeks, they can do it again, especially if they use March Madness as a backdrop. This concern about not having the date set is much ado about nothing, I think.
Oh it’s a real serious issue, heck the fact that they can’t do any better the second time around is a bad sign. This card should of been announced and completely booked weeks ago. They are supposed to be better prepared after the first time not do worse.
Still I agree that the sky hasn’t fallen yet. If we don’t know any more by this time next week then people should start to worry, If we don’t have a full announcement and a set card in two weeks then there is a major problem here.
But it’s based on a false premise. They’re not selling PPVs; they’re promoting a television show, and a sports show at that. You don’t need 8 weeks of lead time to promote a special event; you can just air ads a couple weeks in advance, or have a lead-in telecast that is a high-rated show. It’s a totally different beast, and should probably be analyzed by the folks at TV by the Numbers more so than the good posters at Bloody Elbow. (No offense.)
It’s not just the PPV aspect of it, heck you can sell a PPV a couple of weeks out too. The issue is that it takes a lot of time and effort to book and prepare an arena and to make sure your fighters get in full training camps and are signed and ready and approved by the athletic commission. It takes time to even just get the tickets printed up, not to mention sell them. The time crunch comes in with the actual event production and local advertisement, those things take time and they are going to be similar for any event that is going to be broadcast in any manner.
But I honestly believe that they actually do know when and where the event is going to be, and tactically don’t announce it, so that they slow down the process of Zuffa presenting and promoting counter-programming. Hardcore fans are informed about the rumored fights anyway, so there’s not really an informational lag. It’s just that by not making things official, then Zuffa and Spike can’t properly plan a counter-offensive. This is especially true with the WEC PPV happening either on the day of or within a week of the CBS show.
yes and the UFC also don’t know the rumours either. The problem is fighters need something in writing for them to fight, simply saying “your fighting in april we don’t know where or when but just train we will let you know later”. That isnt good enough.
Matt Hughes spoke about how when he walks into the hotel before a fight he gets mobbed by UFC officlals and suits asking him every thing from hows his weight to is there any thing we can do. Matt said when Robbie walked in two peope in the lobby nodded to him
April has been booked up for a good month now and it doesn’t matter when they announce the show, SpikeTV is going to counter-program it with some kind of UFC rerun, they can wait till a week out to announce it and SpikeTV will still be able to do that. Counter-programming that way will happen no matter what. Zuffa won’t move it’s events at this point just to go after Strikeforce, especially the WEC PPV. At this point point the whole “they are tactically not announcing it” arguement has been shot full of so many holes that it’s not even worth bothering with. That excuse may of been a good one last month but every other competiting sport is already set in stone for April so there is no reason to wait on that now.
Of course even if it was some kind of silly “tactical” move that no one has ever bothered with trying to do before because it just doesn’t work then it is screwing over fighters who are waiting for word about who they are going to fight and when so they can start training. If the fighters knew what was going on then so would the internet by now, that means they are still just hurting themselves by not getting this thing booked.
by who me on Feb 20, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
At the November card, the name strikeforce wasn’t barely being mentioned, it was always “Saturday night fights”, and that bothered me.
Personally, I hope that fedor leaves Vadim and m-1, but I just don’t see it happening.
Do you really think that “Strikeforce” is a stronger brand name than CBS, and that casual fans actually consider other MMA companies to be anything other than “that other UFC?”
Because my brand will never be bigger than my partner’s brand, I don’t worry about it. Because my brand will never by bigger than my competitor’s brand, I don’t worry about it. Put another way, do you know the promoters who promote fights for Showtime Boxing? Probably not, but they still do business with Showtime, and profitably.
Apples and oranges, you can’t compare the business of boxing to the business of MMA.
Strikeforce needs brand recognition if they are going do PPV which from all I’ve read seems to be their long term intentions. Just because your brand is never going to be bigger than CBS, doesn’t mean you still shouldn’t try to make it bigger than it is now.
But Showtime isn’t trying to promote MMA that way, they have an exclusive agreement with Strikeforce and are showing 100% Strikeforce cards. Everything boxing and MMA in a business sense is completely unrelated, it’s apples and oranges in every aspect but that they are both prize fighting.
But Strikeforce has also been known to outsource to local promoters for their undercards, or to cede time on their broadcasts to promote Affliction events. Showtime has a different approach, and it’s closer to the boxing model than we think.
Strikeforce puts local matches on their undercards but that has nothing at all to do with Showtime(heck Showtime doesn’t even tape the undercards). Strikeforce did make the move with Affliction to get Arlovski to fight on one of their cards, of course it was still 100% a Strikeforce card on Showtime it just has an Affliction fighter and some sponsorship spots. They have also had Dream fighters on events Shotime doesn’t show Dream cards. Showtime isn’t putting on Bellator events as part of their MMA coverage, they never showed an Affiction card on there, even if Strikeforce borrows a fighter from here or there for the card they are still all Strikeforce events.
In boxing they are Showtime cards that don’t neccessarily belong to any one promoter, heck every fighter on a Showtime boxing card could have a different promoter (and even a different sanctioning body) and it wouldn’t mean anything special. Boxing doesn’t have organizations they just have promoters that work more like managers than anything else.
MMA and boxing use completely different business models. In MMA your brand name is extremely important and always has been. Pride and the UFC had that aspect down pat, heck even Affliction understood the importance of brand management in terms of these events.
Yes, up until now, MMA and boxing at its highest level are set up differently. And yes, the UFC has done pretty well with the Pro Wrestling Model. However, that doesn’t mean that the Boxing Model can’t also work.
The boxing model hasn’t been working well for making big fights happen for about 100 years now.
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
Actually I wouldn’t add Pacquiao to that list being as he was just boxing business modeled out of a mega-fight with Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Right. The fight will NEVER happen. Also, the Mayweather-Mosley and Pacquiao-Clottey fights WON’T make the fight more anticipated, and possibly bigger. Nope, not at all.
Hey I’m not argueing that he won’t make his money somewhere else I’m just pointing out that it didn’t happen because of the way boxing promotion works.
?????
it has not happened because rampage wanted to be MR T, it had nothing to do with the UFC.
Wow, really? Nothing about your statement makes any sense.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Feb 20, 2010 1:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So Pacquaio is fighting Mayweather jr? In boxing promoters and fighters are allowed to make all sorts of demands about fights, it’s part of how the system works that just doesn’t happen in MMA due to guys being signed to orgaizations. Heck MMA has the problem of guys being in different oranizations that boxing doesn’t because of the different business models at work. I’m not going to say one side is right or wrong but it is completely different systems at work between the two.
You want to completely remove Pacquiao from the list even though he put on big fights with ODH and Hatton and has a big fight coming up with Clottey?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
What?
Duran vs Leonard, Leonard vs Hearns, Leonard vs Hagler, Hagler vs Hearns, Ali vs Frazier (all three), Ali vs Foreman, Louis vs Schmelung, Sugar Ray vs Lupin, Sugar Ray vs Lamotta, Chavez vs Whitaker, Jack Johnson vs James Jeffries, Tunney vs Dempsey, Trinadad vs De La Hoya…
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Several of those fights
happened 15+ years ago. With supers fights becoming fewer and further between, I switched from boxing to MMA.
That’s because I was replying to his statement that boxing hasn’t been making the big fights happen for the last 100 years.
As for boxing: this Spring is shaping up as one of the best string of cards I can recall. Pacman, Clottey, Mayweather, Mosely, Berto, Pavlik, Kessler, Froch, Ward, etc. I’m friggin’ pumped.
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 2:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh sorry.
I agree that boxing is making an attempt to comeback. My problem is I quit watching 10 years ago and I have lost the desire.
I've become a fan recently....
MMA has helped me appreciate the subtleties of the sweet science more, ironically…. Plus theres been some really enjoyable fights goin on. The WW division and the MW division being the most interesting to me currently..
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
For me the MW and WW
in any combat sport tends to be the best.
Yeah, boxing’s really had a lack of big fights in the last century…
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Feb 20, 2010 1:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I’ve been watching boxing for the last 6 months or so, so I figure this gives me a good historical perspective.
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
by Ubernoober on Feb 20, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve been thinking that they will crumble in the next year or so, maybe 2.
It is just a ridiculous business model.
Also, their marketing is atrocious. Especially with what they did (or didn’t do) for the return of Fedor on their CBS debut.
I was all for Strikeforce early in, but now it seems they are becoming cheap, so to speak and just killing themselves.
high contracts, low profits, caused by bad marketing and poor matchmaking, as well as a less than stellar production with Showtime.
yeah, they have CBS which is big but CBS doesn’t know what to do with MMA yet nor do they really care too much.
Are you sure they’re not making a profit? And “bad” marketing and “poor” matchmaking is judged by results. In a bad economy, many live events are struggling. Just because WE want a fight to happen doesn’t mean it’s marginally better for business in the long term than a fight we want to see less. I’m not saying that they’re doing everything right; I’m just saying that it isn’t as easy as it looks.
ok you awesome at defending them and their business moves go ahead and tell us where they could have made money too?
Also their brand is important if they hope to get any where. Example being if they go to PPV they need it to say Strikeforce not “CBS whipping bitch”. They have higher contracts then the money they can make back. MMA is hard enough to survive in but when your making the mistakes that SFare your leading yourself to the graveyard and partly digging the hole to lie in.
...and the matchmaking
is sometimes awesome (i.e. Manhoef vs Lawler) or embarrassing (i.e. Lashley vs Sims).
plus, they got a bout rejected for being non-competitive with their emerging HW “star” before they ended up throwing in Sims whom just recently got denied a fight with Tim Sylvia.
i mean they let Herschel Walker fight!
Might be a case of too much too fast.
I’ve always known SF as a regional MMA company, and they were doing really well within their niche. But all of a sudden, with the Fedor signing andt he CBS partnering, it seemed they kind of shot to the main stage all of a sudden. It’s like a small indie band that was making nice, enjoyable records to a small crowd, then all of a sudden blowing up overnight on a hit single, and not knowing how to handle it.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
very true
i agree. they were just California, mainly San Jose and were doing well as an up and coming addition to the MMA world, however one thing lead to another and they thought they could be a UFC caliber org overnight.
I think they saw an opportunity when Affliction folded, to have the best HW in the world. Then all of a sudden they had him, and I think it was a case of, “Holy shit! Now what?”
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
$8000 in merch
i’ve never been to a strikeforce show, but just based on looking at their online webstore, they barely have any merch. and a handful of the things they sell have the same art on them. such an untapped source of revenue. doesn’t the ufc make obscene amounts of money of merch sales at their shows? of course, that speaks to the brand power as was mentioned, they probably have a greater variety for fans to choose from as well.
When I was at UFC in Montreal for the first time… every single shirt was sold out by the end of the event. It was insane.
by Nick Thomas on Feb 20, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Philly
At 101 I was standing in a mob just to get to the merchandise counter and that was at the weigh in.
by darkside3744 on Feb 20, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
So the lesson here is that Strikeforce’s brand is less prominent than UFC’s. Pardon my French, but no shit. Why even bother making a merchandise sales comparison. Who knows if merchandise sales is a big piece of their business model?
Bloodyelbow is such a joke as a website
Always reporting bullshit rumors and doing blogwhoring.
Fedor was fighting Ricco Rodriguez?
Fedor has signed in the UFC?
Mousasi has been lied by Apy Etcheld?
When Fedor vs Werdum will happen, this website will one more time look like a total joke with this UFC and Brock Lesnar rumor.
BE, the stupid arm of the UFC.
Is that an excuse?
“BE has the right to lie, make up and spread rumors because if you are not happy with fake journalisms and manipulation you can go elsewhere”
we clearly identified all the rumors as such
and not to be taken seriously. The news we are reporting is the fact that ridiculous rumors are going around, not the content of those rumors.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Wait, I thought you were anti-UFC. Now you’re the stupid arm of the UFC.
Nate, can you just let us know if you are anti-UFC or the stupid arm of the UFC. It would make these posts a lot easier to read.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Feb 20, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
You must be the
biggest case of Bi Polar Disorder on record. I might disagree with you from time to time but fuck me. I guess you can’t state ANYTHING without a backlash.
Just ignore the bottom line
All of these rumors are most definitely NOT to be taken seriously, but they show the way that mis- and disinformation can multiply when a promotion like Strikeforce isn’t laying out a clear narrative by making official event announcements in a timely manner.
Wow. Your reading skills are sub-par.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 20, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
There are plenty of other sites man.
And frankly, I think you would be better off without the BE community, as we would be better off without your ignorant comments.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
What exactly do you think blogs are for?
Not only for reporting news, but speculating, offering opinion and discussing rumors, etc…
These aren’t things BE is making up, it is what is being discussed amongst fans.
Every time I come on here, someone is accusing BE of whoring out the UFC or bashing the UFC. That tells me they are pretty fair in their treatment.
But thanks for offering up your well thought out reply. It takes all kinds.
What is the opposite of a rec?
I want to do that to this post.
Sunshine
Lollypops
Rainbows
Gumdrops
These are the things that make my day!
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
Boobs make my day. Just sayin'.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
I think of the happy things,
The happy things,
The happy things.
I think of the happy things,
Turn that frown upside down.
Cute little kittens,
With warm little mittens,
There are cute little kittens,
With warm little mittens,
Saying meow meow meow meow meow!
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
I love the expression on Dana’s face. I had to laught out loud.
by snakecharmer1340 on Feb 20, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Brand power is so important.
Arnold is entirely correct. I’ve said this before, but everyone I know that’s a casual fan is still completely ignorant of the sport of MMA. Everything MMA related, to them, is Ultimate Fighting. Fedor on CBS? Well, I shit you not, so many people thought that was a UFC event and that Fedor would eventually fight Brock. Messed up and conpletely stupid, I know, but that’s the reality. The UFC has broken through into popular culture: not MMA.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
by pud333 on Feb 20, 2010 12:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
UFC is the Kleenex of the MMA world.
by darkside3744 on Feb 20, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
There were alot of denials right before EliteXC and Affliction went down. I tend to agree with a few other posters, that when there is smoke there is fire. UFC has said for years it didn’t do a network deal, or and HBO deal, or a Showtime deal because the deals didn’t make sense, and were not good business.
I think SF is trying to compete and making some bold moves, but we seem to not be giving them that opportunity.
The UFC was struggling for a long period of time before they succeeded, and while I think there is more pressure on SF to succeed at this level in a smaller time frame, we may be jumping the gun a bit.
Give them a chance to fail or further succeed.
However, I think the Showtime/CBS deal may hasten their failure rather than their success.
If they were just a little better organized, would we even be having this conversation to this extent?
by BJJDenver on Feb 20, 2010 1:02 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
This.
Wish Coker had grabbed his nuts and stuck to his guns a little longer. Maybe attempted to keep a little more control of his product. We now have Coker trying to run as company with CBS/Showtime trying to pull the strings. This might not end well.
The UFC did struggle for a long period before turning it around. However Strikeforce has one very huge obstacle to overcome that the UFC didn’t when they turned it around. Strikeforce has to compete with the UFC. Not just compete but overcome the fact that the UFC is trying to crush them.
Just BE.
They might fail, but its probably too early to say just yet. I think the April Strikeforce CBS card will be quite successful. Fedor has said he’s fighting in April, just that the opponent has not yet been confirmed, but I think 90% its going to be Werdum. The live gate from Miami is terrible, but they still have a really good base in San Jose. I think they should also conisder tapping into the Canadian market more (come to Montreal!)
I’m always wary of autopsies on a body that still isn’t dead yet. In less than four years they’ve gone from having main events like Tank-Buentello and Shamrock-Cesar Gracie to having legitimate main events like Diaz-Zaromskis and Fedor-Rogers.
Before they try another market in another country, they should get their own house in order first. SF’s problem is that they could potentially have bit off more than they can chew. The last thing they need is to go to Canada.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
The problem with strikeforce is that they don’t have any money and that they are doing very bad with their gates, 300 000 and they do a very bad job promoting the fights. The UFC however is regularly pulling 2-3, even up 5+ milliondollar gates.
From a money making perspective, it is crazy to build a show on ratings, but it is even crazier doing it on Showtime. I don’t live in the U.S, but I’ve heard that only like 12 million people have access to Showtime. Their last event was considered to be a success, and yet only 517.000 people tuned in to see Herschel Walker defeating a can. They are never going to be as near as big as the UFC, I mean you can’t even compare them as companies. While the UFC is expanding on a global level, doing all kinds of network deals all over the world, launching TUF in other countries, SF is struggling making it out of San Jose.
SF should have stuck to being a lower level show for up and coming talent and for guys who couldn’t make it in the UFC. If they had just done that, Dana would have left them alone, instead they decided to play hard, and now, it looks like they are falling down hard.
The thing with the UFC is they could still pull a 7 or 8 figure profit with a $300,000 gate, when SF does it they lose their ass.
by ufc4 on Feb 20, 2010 3:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Aren't we all jumping the gun here
I’m on my mobile so I can’t go too much into details but here is a couple of thoughts
1) why think Strikeforce is ready to collapse. Sure they have (a lot of) problems, but they seem fairly profitable with their showtime cards. The get a $700,000 fee from Showtime plus gate and to the best of my knowledge they haven’t lost money on a card.
2) it’s possible Miami was an outlier. Supposedly Strikeforce, Showtime, and CBS gave away 2000-3000 comp tickets to those in town for the probowl because everyone was asking to see Herschel. That’s a big hit to the gate and I’m sure those people don’t give a shit about merchandise. In addition, does strikeforce even have merchandise? Seriously, was anyone at the event and can they tell us if they were even selling Strikeforce shit.
3) they announced the Fedor vs Rogers fight September 17th – 52 days before the fight. If they announce Monday for April 17th it will be 53 days. And this time we basically know all the fights – Fedor vs Werdum, Hendo vs Shields, mousasi vs King Mo. In fact my gues is they’ll announce next week because there isn’t a UFC card for a couple weeks to steal the attention.
This isn’t to say Strikeforce doesn’t have problems, because they do. Their biggest, off the top of my head:
a) Showtime and CBS not really seeming committed to them while also not giving them too much freedom
b) a nonexistent promotions department, leaving a vacuum were all this rumors can fill.
I don’t know if Strikeforce is going to make it as a major promotion, but I think some of you are jumping the gone with the death watch, because I am not detecting an Affliction or Elite XC Hindenburg-type disaster just yet.
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 1:15 PM EST via mobile reply actions 2 recs
The biggest problem thay have is with matchmaking. Fighters like Jacare, Galvao, Shaolin are waiting months for fights, Riggs, Tate, Beerbohm were forced to find fights outside of Strikeforce to stay busy. Almost all fighters can’t get full training camps, because bouts are signed so late and there are no dates.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
Well thank god you didn’t go into too much detail.
by ufc4 on Feb 20, 2010 4:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
1. We don’t know Strikeforce’s financials but don’t they have to pay Showtime a fee for producing the shows? I mean I agree completely that discussions of them being on the verge of collapse are very far fetched at this point but I wonder at just what their actual deal terms are, especially for the expensive CBS events. The sky isn’t falling but it is a topic for discussion.
2. Who knows what kind of merchandising they have but you would think there would be fighter shirts for sale or something out there at least. Heck lease some space out to vendors or something to try and get some income rolling in. As far as ticket sales, if there was that much demand to see Walker then why would you give them tickets for free? The whole object here is to get people to pay to see people they are interested in seeing. If CBS/Showtime was giving out Strikeforce tickets for free then they were taking significant money out of Strikeforce’s pockets.
3. The 52 days from announcement for the last CBS event was panned pretty hard for not being enough time. Besides your supposed to be able to do better the second time around than the first. It’s not a disaster that they haven’t announced it yet or anything but it is a bit of a headscratcher. If we don’t get an announcement in the next week or two then that is an issue.
1) for a showtime card I’m guessing their production costs at $250,000. Twice that for a CBS show. So with a gate of $700,000 plus Showtime and sponsorship fee minus production, payroll, and site, they’re looking at a sizeable profit. And half their events have taken place at the HP Pavilion were they have a tiny site fee. Of course, they still have to fund their promotions day to day operations, and who knows what that costs?
As for the CBS cards, I think people are overestimating the costs because they can’t get past the Affliction comparison.
Affliction had a payroll of $3.3 mil plus an additional $2.3 mil rumored to be paid to Fedor and M-1. For a Strikeforce CBS card I’m willing to wager they get a atleast a $2.5 license fee. Their payroll is around $2 mil with CBS picking up $500,000 of the Fedor deal, and they lose half the gate to m-1. But they also make more in sponsors because they’re on network tv. So I’m guessing they’re close to breaking even on the CBS deal, if not actually making a small profit. Rome could probably break this down better.
2) agree with the shirts. I wonder if they’ve basically gotten out of licensing their fighters images as a way to entice them to Strikeforce. In other words fighters own all their own image rights, but Strikeforce doesn’t push anything for them.
As for the comp tickets, I understand it was a way to suck up to a lot of people in the NFL and major corporations in town for the probowl. Rich people never pay for tickets.
3) agree again, but lot of people seemed to be reading way too much into the fact that nothing was official yet. I just wanted to point out that this seems to be normal operating precedure for Strikeforce.
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 5:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
1. Those are the numbers I was wondering about but the reported gate from above was $320,000 not $700,000 and that makes the numbers a lot tighter. I do agree that being able to have a home arena like they do in San Jose is a huge deal (not to mention they sell that thing out every time). I guess this is an issue similar to knowing what the UFC’s cost are, really interesting but hard to nail down.
2. Selling stuff at events is a significant revenue stream, even if they are letting the fighters do their own stuff there is no reason to not have a booth and selling their stuff (everyone likes to sell stuff at events, charge for booth space at least). It just seems like Strikeforce is missing the boat on this one.
My worry with the tickets is if Showtime/CBS is giving away tickets (which are Strikeforce’s revenue stream)then it’s a possible sign that they may really be deeper involved with this than people think. Of course that is all speculation but it just seems like a bad move to give away so many tickets when you have no problem selling them.
3. I think that this is part of the problem a lot of people are having with this, normal operating procedure shouldn’t be to last minute every event like they have been doing. I know they used to be a lot smaller but this wasn’t a issue before Showtime (although EliteXC seemed to have the same problem quite often). I would hope that Strikeforce would be improving in this area not getting worse as it’s just bad for business and hard on the fighters. I guess they are still better than Japan at least.
1) as I said, I viewed Miami as an aberration so I went with the gate of their last couple showtime cards.
2) agree
3) agree again. I don’t know why 2-3 months for the main events and the rest of the card filled out at least a month in advance is so hard, but apparently it is.
by John Nash on Feb 20, 2010 8:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If I were them at this point I would start cutting losses.
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
where are they now? LOL
Once upon a time I was playing poker and talked to the next guy about my dislike for kids who wear MMA apparel acting all tough and give MMA bad rep. Sure enough Asian Dude sat down right next to me in his Affliction shirt and Tapout hat. Guy sitting next to me started asking me about the difference between MMA, UFC and Tapout. And Asian Dude proudly claimed he trains UFC. I was speechless. Then he starting telling me about his karate black belt, his wrestling pedigree and his dislike of jujitsu. He hates jujitsu because he does not like being on his back. (?!) Long story short, he then challenged me to spar with him so I invited him to my gym. He dissed my gym and never showed up. To this day I'm still waiting for him. Please contact me if you see Asian Dude.
Description:
5'7"
140 lbs
Gucci glasses
LV fanny pack
Spiky hair
Talks tough
Fought in King of the Cage Canada, Pride
Making the world a better place, one dirtbag at a time.
so is he from bad korea or good korea?
Once upon a time I was playing poker and talked to the next guy about my dislike for kids who wear MMA apparel acting all tough and give MMA bad rep. Sure enough Asian Dude sat down right next to me in his Affliction shirt and Tapout hat. Guy sitting next to me started asking me about the difference between MMA, UFC and Tapout. And Asian Dude proudly claimed he trains UFC. I was speechless. Then he starting telling me about his karate black belt, his wrestling pedigree and his dislike of jujitsu. He hates jujitsu because he does not like being on his back. (?!) Long story short, he then challenged me to spar with him so I invited him to my gym. He dissed my gym and never showed up. To this day I'm still waiting for him. Please contact me if you see Asian Dude.
Description:
5'7"
140 lbs
Gucci glasses
LV fanny pack
Spiky hair
Talks tough
Fought in King of the Cage Canada, Pride
Making the world a better place, one dirtbag at a time.
Look for the house that has a light on at night…
by MMAWrestling on Feb 20, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
All of these rumors are most definitely NOT to be taken seriously,
But let’s re-print them anyway!
by smoogy2 on Feb 20, 2010 1:25 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Did you know that measles vaccinations may cause down syndrome?
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
haha.
"I love it when a guy is bleeding on top of me." -- Diego Sanchez, post fight interview about his fight with Clay Guida
Welcome to CNN interview. Today our topic is down syndome and vaccinations. To my left is Dr. Hertzfeld, a leading researcher in the field of viral pathology for the last 40 years. To my right is Jenny McCarthy. She was in playboy and has been impregnated by Jim Carrey.
Keep firing Assholes!
I don't know what I'm talking aboot.
You’d like this.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
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by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 20, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder what the deal is not announcing and making official the fights? Is it all the crosspromotions that they’re doing? What could possibly be the hold up, especially when you’re talking about your golden nugget. Wouldn’t it be a priority to get that fight date in stone? So weird to me, though I’m sure it’s more complicated than that, I don’t get not getting your ducks in a row.
which is why people are saying Strikeforce is on its way out. some of the things they do mirrors other failed organizations and how they run their business seems the opposite of what we have seen from the ufc.
by sadface on Feb 20, 2010 4:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Strikeforce got greedy. Simple as that. They had a nice, cozy little spot producing their own brand of small-scale MMA that promoted talented young fighters, and then they decided a network TV deal was the answer for one of the few organizations that didn’t fuck up by competing directly with the UFC.
CBS/Showtime is looking for little risk, and high reward: as they should be. MMA is an unfamiliar product to mainstream America, so there’s no reason to put a lot of dollars into marketing a sport that the casual sports fan either knows little about, nor cars for on the surface. Coker was hoping they’d help sell the sport while CBS/Showtime is hoping to see the sport sell itself.
Course…it doesn’t help that the Strikeforce staff seems to be fueled by cold pizza, brain farts, and dial-up.
one of the best things the ufc ever did was make people refer to mma as ultimate fighting
to the majority of casual fans out there the sport is refered to as ultimate fighting not mma this gives the ufc a huge advantage in the sport because the ufc brand is synonymous with mma unlike SF
the majoirty of sports fans have no idea what SF is or does and if u told them they were a mma promotion people whould still be equally confused u would have to say they have ultimate fighting events for people to understand what they did.
by milk72 on Feb 20, 2010 5:23 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Strikeforce has it easier than the UFC did when they started out.
1. Large and growing MMA fan base.
2. MMA is legal in 43 states.
3. Showtime/CBS resources.
I don’t know why things aren’t locked for the CBS show if it’s hapenning in April. Are they that afraid of what the UFC will do?
by snakecharmer1340 on Feb 20, 2010 5:42 PM EST reply actions
While some things are easier for Strikeforce I’m not sure overall the task is easier. Strikeforce has to deal with the UFC driving up their payroll and basically doing everything they can to keep them down. UFC never had to compete with another promoter trying to crush them while struggling for survival.
Just BE.
1. Large and growing MMA fan base.
2. MMA is legal in 43 states.
3. Showtime/CBS resources.
How about the ways in which Strikeforce has it harder:
1. Zero presence on PPV.
2. Zero brand name presence as evidenced by selling just 8 grand in merchandise sales.
3. If you want premium fighters, theoretically you have to pay premium and that usually means matching Zuffa’s offers. Zuffa can handle these prices. Anyone who is not Zuffa either can’t, or suffer costs that are hard to sustain.
4. Secondary organizations. It’s hard on Strikeforce because it’s easy to gloss over prospects. They’re unfamiliar, and a prospect with buzz can be bought at a good price, meaning Strikeforce has to deal with not just Zuffa who can compete with them on bigger contracts, but with places like Bellator who can compete with them on the smaller contracts. This makes the biggest impact on Strikeforce’s depth -which they unsurprisingly don’t have.
5. Showtime/CBS resources. It can be a good thing, but we’ve seen how it cuts both ways. By providing CBS/Showtime with so much influence, Strikeforce compromises the integrity of their cards because the network has neither the knowledge, nor the experience that Strikeforce has.
6. M-1. Sharing profits with someone who is literally piggybacking off you financially because of one name fighter on their roster is bad business. This is especially true in this case because Fedor is not a cashcow.
There are plenty of additional reasons, not the least of which begins with some of Strikeforce’s decision-making itself (it can never be brought up enough the epic fail that is their prospect hunting), but these things add up to betray the notion that Strikeforce has it easier than when the UFC started out. Even as a mediocre business, they didn’t have to worry about excess competition: competition not only within the market of the sport’s athletes (who demand prices no ma-and-pa shop can afford), but within the market of the sport itself – there’s a reason places like Affliction, EliteXC, and the IFL have an obituary.
by David Castillo on Feb 20, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it seems like sf was content being a smaller show for a long time,now they seem to take on however(m1,showtime etc)they think will take them to the top at a rapid pace.its almost like coker and company got really lazy and want everyone else to to do the work for them,unfortunatly their not very good at it.
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