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UFC's Ben Saunders Horrified, Frightened by Experience With Virginia's Athletic Commission

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Once again, Saunders doesn't know me and likely does not know about the previous stink I have raised about this commission. But it hardly matters: when you're consistently incompetent and consistently working, everyone will take notice of your failures.

Saunders was at the RIE event in Harrisonburg, Virginia this past Saturday cornering fighters. Posting on the UnderGround forum, Saunders had this to say about Dave Holland and the commission behavior:

I have never heard of or seen in my entire career what went down that night. I said don't you have some kind kind of court trial to discuss and turnover a decision. He said he can do whatever he wants and to watch him, getting very defensive and angry because someone was questioning him. Appearing to make it very personal as opposed to a professional decision. What they showed us was scratched out and rewrites on the card saying they messed up. Not once did they ever apologize or act professional in any way. They seemed like they felt they could run the show however they wanted not abiding by any protocols or rules what so ever.

Not acting professional? Does that sound familiar? While unfortunate, that's hardly the problem. Now, again, I was not there. I am only detailing here what others - several different people - have told me: the commission neither wrapped hands nor checked gloves nor completed other basic administrative tasks. Here's Saunders:

Anyways back to my main issue and grudge was the saftey of the fighters. I don't want my fighter, or other fighters fighting in a state that doesn't do there job and puts lives in danger which could seriously destroy everything we as a whole MMA community have fought so hard to accomplish by promoting and regulating MMA into a legit sport that is safer than many other sports. One death in Virginia could cause NY and even states who approved of it to deny MMA and send us back 10 years. I will not sit back and watch some douche bag do that to me, us, or anyone. F--k that...!!!

Someone could have easily built a cast around there hand or added some kind of metal, ect. under the gloves, and many other illegal things that could cause an edge in a fight or possibly death!!! No commission was anywhere to regulate anything. People could have greased, done sport enhancing injections, you name it. Nothing was run in a legal manner, which i don't blame the event cause they pay the commission to regulate the event and do there f--king job!

They tried to get a cop to remove me from the event because they got angry i was questioning them and they told me to go away and shooed me away with there hands like I was a dog. This is after I was already walking away like 8-12 feet. It was ridiculous. Because I turned around to there smart ass remark and dog like shooing, this is when they got a cop. The cop didn't ask what was going on and tried to escort me out. I stayed calm and was actually laughing. I was cracking up, thinking i didn't do anything wrong or illegal, how can he really justify kicking me out? I was there as a special guest for the event and as a corner. I was in the middle of no where in Virginia at some high school that was holding the event. It was snowing outside and i obviously don't have a car. I kept thinking what is he gonna do kick me out into the snow and leave me there, Hahaha. We walked to get my things but once he found out why I was there and talking with the promoter he realized the guy was a f--king tool and let me stay.

If this is true - we do not yet know for certain it is, although I have heard similar reports from two different sources - then we have a serious, serious problem on our hands. Without the slightest degree of exaggeration, if hands are not being wrapped or checked by athletic commission officials, a fighter can be permanently brain damaged or killed. Antonio Margarito, anyone?

Those of you who live outside of the DC area may be wondering why I am harping on this issue. It may seem to not affect you on first glance. I understand this may be somewhat of a nuisance to keep up with, but make no mistake: what this and every other athletic commission does affects each and every one of us. No one wants to see the efforts of pioneers, the UFC and other stakeholders flushed down the proverbial drain because those charged with the task of protecting the lives and safety of fighters cannot do their jobs. And what you're seeing now is as others are exposed to the Virginia's commission's reported negligence, outrage is beginning to spread. That's the only inevitable outcome that could've happened, anyway.

Something must be done. More to come.

p.s. For more behind the scenes details, check out what Goldsby's teammate had to say.

UPDATE: Virginia's commission responds to the controversy:

When contacted for a comment by ULTMMA.com (www.ultmma.com) the Virginia Department of Professional and Occupational Regulation released the following statement-

The decision in the January 30, 2009, Riggleman vs. Goldsby fight was not reversed. Rather, the initial announcements were incorrect due to scoring error. Department officials quickly recognized the error and asked the promoter to hold off on the other fights until the cards could be tallied properly so as to re-announce correctly.

However, the promoter continued with the additional bouts and left no time to verify the scores and announce the correct decision until the end of the show.

The split decision in Riggleman's favor announced at the end of the event reflects the accurate scores from the judges' scorecards:

Todd McGovern 28-29
John Simons, Jr. - 29-28
John Simons, III - 29-28

Again, I wasn't there, but what was told to me by sources was that the cards came with fighters' names on them. This is standard practice. The problem was that two of the cards had Riggleman in one corner and the other had him in the opposite corner. So, if this is true, this hardly exonerates them.

Second, this also doesn't explain why the fight was then announced to be a draw before the decision for Riggleman was announced.

More to come.

Comment 53 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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Why does it have to be my home state that’s the retarded one?

They should hire me for a judge, I’ll do it for $3.50 an hour, just to keep that god damn loch ness monster away.

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by Patrick Tenney on Feb 2, 2010 12:05 PM EST reply actions  

REC'D

Anyone who hasnt heard about the Billy Collins/ Panama Lewis story really needs to click that link. A truly horrific story.

by 20dawkins20 on Feb 2, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Those of you who live outside of the DC area may be wondering why I am harping on this issue. It may seem to not affect you on first glance. I understand this may be somewhat of a nuisance to keep up with, but make no mistake: what this and every other athletic commission does affects each and every one of us.

I’m sure no one on the site is bothered by you bringing this up. This is a big deal. Like Ben Saunders said, this could affect the sport as a whole.

by SplitBreast on Feb 2, 2010 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

This seems like a complete clusterfuck. Every fighter on that card should get a doctor to document all of their injuries sustained during the fight and then claim that their opponent had illegal hand wraps and sue the commission for not doing anything to check up on it.

by Phildo on Feb 2, 2010 12:18 PM EST reply actions  

^ this ^

I’ve been to many local shows here in Denver CO (good ol’ ROF baby) and the commisions here are very good at what they do. Maybe not up to the Vegas level but the fighters are kept safe.

If some doucher decides to put blades in his damn wraps and kill somebody then what? Remember this is a local show we are not talking about the most professional athletes competeing at this level. Even if somebody is caught before the act, it still damages MMA’s rep badly..

HEADLINES:
Vicious PIT fighter is charges with attempted murder as he wraped his hands with bits of metal and needles… that sounds great for the sport.. McKain would have a playday..

by Fighter 1 on Feb 2, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Luke, I tweet’d at you today about this. I know that I’ve read interviews with Nick Lembo where he’s said he’d be willing to help out Athletic Commissions with bringing themselves up to speed with MMA regulation. The NJSACB or the NSAC should be contacted about this. As you said and as Ben said, this doesn’t just affect Virginia. If something happens, you’ll see all states forced to make MMA illegal. Please reach out to them, you have the political background to do this.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Feb 2, 2010 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

Please keep us updated. In the meantime, is it a viable option for these promotions to just move their events to DC or NJ or PA where the commissions are more competent?

I was going to make a fan post about this and may still. Part of the issue is that the sport has grown very quickly and the goal has been to get it regulated in all 50 states. While this is a great thing, you also run the risk of having it regulated too soon with commissions not educated on safety.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Feb 2, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s pretty obvious at this point that VA should no longer be sanctioning MMA cards until the commission is completely overhauled, this has gone past the point of being comical to being dangerous and potentially deadly.

by ufc4 on Feb 2, 2010 12:27 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Thanks for keepings tabs on this ongoing issue, Luke.

by kid_eh on Feb 2, 2010 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

get em luke

Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.

by judonerd on Feb 2, 2010 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

This is a serious issue that deserves attention. Good job! Who do you go to when the state athletic commision is the one fucking things up, though?

certified warlord

by kenpoboy67 on Feb 2, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

Luke Thomas – MMA Lobbyist

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Feb 2, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You go to the people that appoint the commission.

Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.

by Day Man on Feb 2, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

^ This

The UFC has done this in Ontario, completely bypassing Ken Hayashi and going straight to his political masters.

by Steve4192 on Feb 2, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

We saw how quickly the continents athletic commission’s turned on Edmonton for changing rules. Can we expect a similar response when one shows gross incompetence? As much as I am proud that we, as fans, can change things for the better in this sport, the athletic commissions from neighbour states have an obligation to at least point some fingers.

by bubbafat on Feb 2, 2010 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

Just awful.

Bad decisions, failed timekeeping, and allowing pants are stupid things that can hurt a fighters reputation and pocketbook. Not checking wraps for foreign substances is something that can end a career, cause severe injury leading to a life of mental illness, or kill someone. The VSAC just went from Benny Hill like lunacy to a serious emergency.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Feb 2, 2010 1:41 PM EST reply actions  

Ok, I'm a Virginian and a loud mouth...

Who do we write/call?

From now on whatever event I am planning will be know as the ‘Bas Rutten Invitational ____’

by beery_pbr on Feb 2, 2010 1:48 PM EST reply actions  

Call Richmond, tell them you want 1 million theoretical dollars.

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by Patrick Tenney on Feb 2, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

or space cash

Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."

by Stillberry on Feb 3, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Amazing

It’s hard to believe a commission can be so terrible. If anything I’ve found commissions to be overly careful, but then Virginia takes things back to the stone ages. The best thing that can happen is if the promoters start taking this to the media and making a case for the protection of their fighters and rep.

If any virginian promoters are around, this is a great opportunity to increase your rep and do something positive for the sport.

by rask4p on Feb 2, 2010 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

Update from Virginia Athletic Commission

Quotes from the VA AC here

fingers are now pointed and the blame game begins

 

Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ultmma

http://www.ultmma.com

by ultmma on Feb 2, 2010 3:36 PM EST reply actions  

Is it just me...

or is it odd that 2 of the 3 judges are father and son?

"The moment you stop thinking you're the best, it's time for you to get out the game." -'King' Mo Lawal

by duck on Feb 2, 2010 4:08 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I just noticed that too.
“Hey dad, what did you score?”
Did the UFC just have an event recently in Virginia?
I wonder how it went for them.

by bucco69 on Feb 2, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes they did a couple weeks back, it went smoothly because the UFC basically ran the whole thing.

by ufc4 on Feb 2, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Right...

which is annoying that they had to do. Most smaller organizations don’t have the resources to be everywhere at once.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 2, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I almost wish the UFC hadn’t gone there as them holding an event that ran smoothly probably legitimizes the VA AC in a lot of people’s eyes when in reality they probably did next to nothing.

by ufc4 on Feb 2, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, i was about to post about that too.
I have no clue how judges are chosen, but its pretty questionable that there seems to be a father and son team as the majority of the judges.

Meat Feast

by TamF on Feb 2, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, dead on. Shows what little common sense they have on this one. You just don’t do that.

by TLow on Feb 2, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep up the good work, Luke. It’s ridiculous that this shit isn’t getting dealt with.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Feb 2, 2010 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Seems like a bunch of random people have found themselves running the Commission and are just making shit up as they go along.

"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy

by Benicio on Feb 2, 2010 4:32 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you Sir Luke! Keep it up!

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Feb 2, 2010 4:41 PM EST reply actions  

One thing to keep in mind

Virginia currently has a $4 billion budget shortfall. States all over the country are in a similar situation, and unlike the federal government they aren’t allowed to run deficits. That means taxes will go up, or services will get cut, or both.

Something tells me that funding for quality MMA regulation is not going to be considered an essential government service any time soon. The problem is going to get worse before it gets better.

by George Lucas on Feb 2, 2010 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

While this is true, if they don’t have the money to hire a competent commission then they shouldn’t be sanctioning MMA. Something tells me these people are probably making decent money, they just don’t have any idea what they are doing.

by ufc4 on Feb 2, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, they could say “we have regulation in place, but until the budget allows us to properly protect fighters we will not be providing licensing for MMA events in our state.”

It’ll never happen, but it’d be neat to see some honesty

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Feb 2, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

the promotions need to get together then and make it so that however much money the state gets from teh commission gets reduced to make change happen.

If the commission stops bringing in money, the state will be forced to fix it.

by Phildo on Feb 2, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Under those circumstances, any sane state government (this is saying a lot, I admit) would just can the whole operation and never look back.

Basically if you want MMA in the United States anywhere but Nevada and Indian Reservations what you don’t want to happen is for regulatory commissions to go broke.

by George Lucas on Feb 2, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

that’s not necessarily true. They have the option of fixing the problem to make more money.

You have to spend money to make money, and I don’t think it would cost that much money to fix these problems in virginia. No one in this economy would be shutting out revenue sources. It wouldn’t cost too much to fix it, and making it hurt in the pocket book is the only way to bring change.

by Phildo on Feb 2, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re saying that in order to get states to recognize the moneymaking potential of athletic commissions, athletic commission revenues need to decrease.

Seriously.

by George Lucas on Feb 2, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

So in your world no boycott has ever worked?

by Phildo on Feb 2, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes I’m sure a boycott of Virgina MMA will cause a groundswell of popular support and not completely kill off a niche government service.

Someone call Nick Diaz, we need the Rosa Parks of MMA on the scene.

by George Lucas on Feb 2, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Except the problems described aren’t budgetary, they are education. There are plenty of gyms in VA that are world class (Lloyd Irvin comes to mind) where you can license the instructors as refs and judges. Or use the instructors from gyms outside of the state if you are worried about bias. Not checking wraps has nothing to do with budget, it has everything to do with just being a smooth commission. As I said above, these guys should be reaching out to Lembo. Jersey has been regulating MMA for almost a decade and has one of the best commissions. And Lembo has offered help. This is just a matter of a commission that doesn’t want to admit fault so they ignore problems.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Feb 2, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Should those gym instructors from other states work for free?

by George Lucas on Feb 2, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

They’re already paying the judges, so why not get people who actually instruct?

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Feb 2, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you expecting a skilled martial arts instructor to work for the same price as a (presumably) unskilled commission employee?

by George Lucas on Feb 2, 2010 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you think they’d rather have one big payday or the shot that something legitimately bad happen and then have a state where their fighters can never fight? And it doesn’t even need to be Lloyd Irvin, Luke is knowledgeable enough that he’d be a good judge or ref. And why completely disregard what I said about Lembo. That doesn’t cost money.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Feb 2, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

For starters, of course using Lembo would cost money. Commissioners don’t work pro bono, especially not in other states.

Secondly, using journalists as judges or refs would be almost as bad a conflict of interest as using local trainers and coaches. And even besides that, it still doesn’t address the fact that you have to pay these people and fund the day to day operations of regulation.

The implication that you’re making, that trainers and other interested parties would work better for less pay out of the goodness of their hearts and love for the sport is comically naive.

by George Lucas on Feb 3, 2010 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Not sure why I was so inspired, but...

I just sent this email to the Virginia Department of Professional and Occupational Regulation …

Dear Commission,

I am appalled at the allegations against your organization following the recent Respect Is Earned event in your Commonwealth; including improper regulation of the taping of fighters’ hands, improper facilitation of weigh-in procedure and, most notably, allowing uneducated judges to render a professional decision.

While I was not in attendance, nor did I witness any of the events of the evening, I am an MMA fan that fully supports the legalization and proper regulation of the sport that I love. For one moment a deemphasis of safety, professionalism or proper regulation of our sport jeopardizes everything that the MMA community has worked so hard for: eduction, legitimacy and acceptance. When so often allegation equates to public perception, we must not allow such egregiousness to occur.

I would rather see a state not fully sanction MMA than witness it not taking seriously its regulation or, more importantly, the safety of the athletes participating. Many states successfully regulate and champion MMA events to great success and economic and social gains. I suggest you reach out to and learn from the regulating bodies of these states, and show the Commonwealth of Virginia the value of Mixed Martial Arts as a sporting outlet.

Best regards,

Benjamin P.
New York, NY

by PackMMA on Feb 2, 2010 9:22 PM EST reply actions  

John Simons, Jr. – 29-28
John Simons, III – 29-28

Why are two people who are directly related judging the same fight?

by Jahbulon on Feb 2, 2010 9:33 PM EST reply actions  

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