The Art of Heat
by Blackout612 on Feb 10, 2010 5:16 PM EST
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PrintI love a good heel. Honest, I do. Despite my criticisms, at times, of King Mo's behavior in and out of the ring, there's a yearning in me to root for an asshole above all else. I'm the consummate evil character in any deed-rewarding/punishing video game, and I could be found chanting "Rocky Sucks" along with everyone else in the early 2000's. Heels make it interesting. Heels make it a compelling fight when it isn't. Heels add a certain fire to a fight that you just won't find when guys want to trade sneakers after the game. Heels make it better.
So how can you be the ironic heel-- one that is loved despite his abrasive behavior? I will provide examples of three heels that are successful in this method, and three which are unsuccessful (by my subjective estimation). All opinions on the matter are welcome, and I'll refrain from adding my many honorable mentions to leave the topic open to discussion.
The Unsuccessful
Mohammed "King Mo" Lawal
King Mo can talk. There's little doubt about that. But what King Mo can't do, as a heel, is work his crowd. Like a guy who makes a comment that wouldn't normally be perceived as sexist, but subsequently provides a disclaimer that he's not sexist. It's not a good look. Mo could learn a few things from the Chael Sonnen School of Heat. If you're going to be unshakably confident, and cocky beyond measure, you need to be unapologetic. Mo seldom does an interview in which he doesn't pine over the fact that some people don't like him. He should adopt the unspoken "love me or hate me" approach to his act, and people are likely love him for it.
Tito Ortiz
Tito Ortiz, unlike many of my other examples, is an unfortunate heel-- one that wants so badly to be loved that people hate him for it. Let's call him the reverse-face. This subset is a lonely one, but you can see the signs from a mile away (see; Carwin, Shane-- ease up on the flag-bearing, my man; or it's you and Tito on an island now that Timmay has accepted his fate). Acquiring this unique distinction almost certainly requires the individual in question to be oblivious to the developing negativity, which is an attribute that would make Tito a poster-boy for this affliction. Tito once had a strong following, peaking after his coaching stint on The Ultimate Fighter 3 opposite a pretty unlikeable Ken Shamrock. Tito was the inverse of his peer-- an attentive and caring coach that seemed genuinely invested in the successes and lives of the fighters on his extremely-successful team. But Tito has spent the years since then squandering all of that goodwill via poor grammar, attempts to speak more intelligently than he is capable, a dated sense of self-importance, unsolicited personal attacks on his peers and a deluded propensity to make scores of excuses for his recent failures in the octagon. Tito's going to have a near-impossible time getting off of this island. I'm interested to see if he can do any sort of repair to his image during his next stint as a coach on TUF opposite former friend and accused alcoholic, Chuck Liddell.
Frank Mir
This is perhaps the most arguable of all of my entries, and I'm perfectly okay with that. Frank Mir, to me, is an unsuccessful heel (in the regard detailed) because his cockiness is almost certainly real. Why is that a problem, you ask? Because playing a heel and being one are worlds apart, and when you're as cocksure as Frank, you'd like to think it's an act. From his Ecko commercial, to the passive little smirk on his face whenever he's discussing his opposition, Frank Mir is Dan Hardy if Dan Hardy discredited all of his opponents, was passive aggressive, and continually admonished fighters he isn't scheduled to fight. Add to that a case of MMA-stalking in his often-times unsettling obsession with taking revenge on BROCKLESNAR (see also; BJ Penn/GSP), and you've got yourself the makings of a pretty unlikable character. Granted, he still has a great deal of fans, but so few of them are fans because of his success as a heel-- most of them are fans in spite of that behavior, often defending or disregarding it. Is Frank Mir one of the biggest heels in MMA? Yes. But is he a heel you can love? Not so much.
The Successful
BROCKLESNAR
The method to Lesnar's madness is simple, really-- he caters to a his demographic and has, bar-none, the widest rift between lovers and haters. Minnesotan's, college and pro wrestling enthusiasts, reluctant converts and early prospectors of his success love Brock Lesnar unconditionally. Pro wrestling detractors, men with sword penis envy (the individuals that say it's unfair that he's "too big and strong"), often-unreasonable MMA purists, Mir fans and stubborn doubters that will never convert, hate Lesnar unconditionally. The result is that Lesnar can do and say whatever he wants and his supporters will defiantly champion his words and acts, while his detractors will angrily display their dissatisfaction. Is everything Lesnar does defensible? Of course not. Is everything he does offensive? No way. But that schism is an element of divergent passion that Lesnar brings to MMA that nobody else can-- and he'll always keep us talking.
Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy
Dan Hardy's method of heat is quite subtle, and is based in his confidence and ability to frustrate his opposition. He exudes a slight cockiness without resorting to chest-beating-- generally directing all of his attention towards his impending opponent, rather than towards as broad a range as his entire division. His feud with Marcus Davis was not only his coming out party as a heel, but it made him a rising star and multiplied his marketability ten-fold. Hardy's distinct ability to frustrate his opponents, pre-fight, to the point that they will grow angry and fight with their heart, while he remains calm and calculated, is heel-psychology at its best. It does just enough damage to get him where he's going, while endearing scores of fans to him.
Chael Sonnen
Chael Sonnen might be the most impressive of all of the heels in the positive column, and is mostly responsible for my desire to share my thoughts on this matter, because he carefully toes the line between shit-talker extraordinare and alienating whole masses of fans with his barbs (cough, Matt Hughes, cough). Members of BE have begun referring to Sonnen as "The Troll", due to what is widely considered well thought-out, but often barely-sensible, heat building. Sonnen's style feels hostile and unfiltered, with so many tiny morsels of shit-talking goodness, he doesn't let you settle in on any particular point-- like a casino buffet of insults. It's a level of measured craziness that deflects serious criticism from his more controversial quotables. And you know what? People are starting to love him for it, even though they love Anderson Silva more. Count me among them.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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The thing about Mir is that he’s viewed as a pretty nice dude outside the cage. I’ve rarely heard anything that refutes that. I completely agree that he really IS arrogant, but he seems to be a pretty decent guy overall. I’m not really arguing against what you’re saying, because you even said yourself that Mir’s the tweener of the bunch. Just pointing that.
Oh, and f’n awesome post, dude. Rec’d.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Right
I agree with most of that, and there were easier fighters to choose, but what’s the fun in that? The Lesnar/Mir parallel always makes for interesting conversation. And, remember, the purpose of the article is to determine which heels are likable for being heels. People think I don’t like Mir because of the Lesnar rivalry, but I was actually a huge Mir fan when he was the champ back in the day, and I find his recent personality unpalatable (and I’m a guy that likes heels, but I’ve illustrated what it is that makes me like or dislike one). Does that prevent me from watching him fight? Of course not— it still encourages me to want to see him fight (I’ll never miss a Matt Hughes fight, either). I just won’t root for him like some of the other heels I’ve grown a fan of.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
You couldn’t be more wrong about Mir if you tried, he has alot fo fans because he tells it like it is even if you don’t like it. Any guy that goes out there and tells you how good he is and backs it up in dominating fashion like he has is going to be a success and he’s become just that over the past few years.
Mir is cocky but he is also very smart and incredibly talented, the guy basically should be either dead or crippled but here we after all he’s been through and he’s better than he’s ever been.
The guy knows how to not only sell fights but himself, people either want to see him break a guys arm off or get his face smashed in he’s Tito in his prime and without the wrestling antics.
i think chael has managed to be a heel while endearing people with self deprecating behavior akin to forrest griffin’s. He doesn’t seem to make any effort to cloud what he does or how he feels about it, and he is very earnest about everything- and his belief in himself makes us all believe. I love how he pointed out how miserable the nate fight was instead of just giving generic fighter statements. He fought his heart out. And though most people claim to love silva, i think we are just all waiting for him to lose. These Ed Soares games that blackhouse has played with the ufc are getting on the non-casual mma fan’s nerves. Chael is bringing information to light and speaking in terms about Silva that tug at our heartstrings- yeah, we’ve heard all the talk about how funny, loving, a good friend, etc. Silva is- but does anyone truly believe it? we know nothing of him because despite being a reigning champion for over two years, silva has chosen not to try to speak english. EVERY other brazilian mmartists has made an effort to learn english to endear himself to fans. And yet, Anderson doesnt seem to care about his non portuguese speaking supporters. He seems narcissistic to me. And Chael is playing that card. Is he speaking the truth? I think we’ll soon know. But i think Chael isn’t actually aiming to play the heel, he’s just a no-nonsense non bullshitter type of person that you can hate and love simultaneously, but you cannot rebut. It’s refreshing.
Well
If you’re buying into the shit about Anderson, that’s where we part. Not a big fan of “speak english or die”, but I think Chael is hilarious when he talks about it. It’s up to Anderson if he wants to be more marketable, but I personally respect someone that lets their fighting do the talking.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
i’m not saying speak english or die, but i think its pretty disrespectful to not even make an attempt.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
No, it's not
He has zero obligation to learn English. In no way is that a sign of disrespect to anyone. The UFC is an international company— should he learn to speak Arabic, Cockney, Farsi and Japanese, too? It’s a pretty Americana sentiment that everyone should speak English— he can do whatever he wants.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
i don’t think everyone should speak english fluently, thats not my point. but if i were a fighter, who was going to fight in brazil, japan, somewhere in europe, etc, i would at least learn a few lines to say to the crowd to let them know i appreciate them for coming to see me, and pay me. i cant know for sure but he certainly seems content to let soares spin his words. Even a “thank you for coming to support me” would do. Anderson thinks he’s above that because hes the best at what he does. narcissist.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
You have no reason to conclude that he isn’t speaking English because “he thinks he’s above” it.
Ridiculous.
by Chris Barton on Feb 10, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
He's done that--
The “here’s a few words in engrish” thing.
Can I ask you if you’re bilingual? Speaking a second language is intimidating stuff, and when you’re a public figure with a very specific message to get across, a translator makes the most sense. I relayed a story recently about a trip I took to Lebanon last Summer. I don’t speak Arabic anymore, because I don’t know much of anyone that speaks it. So despite the fact that I am fluent in Arabic, I was intimidated to speak to family and friends overseas.
Now, imagine what Anderson Silva feels like. He understands English and speaks a little bit of it. If you think he’s disrespectful, try meeting him. He will fumble his words trying to engage you, but being put on the spot and actually speaking a language conversationally can be a matter of comfort. I’m only saying all of this to portray the fact that it doesn’t make him a dick because he won’t speak English for you on the television. He is perfectly entitled to speaking whatever language he so chooses and it is unequivocally not a sign of disrespect for someone not to learn your language in your country.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Feb 10, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand
I’m Samoan, but won’t speak it to family or friends, just not that comfortable speaking the language to those more fluent than myself. I hear/understand it but speak back in English. It is very intimidating.
Then I apologize for the "Rocky Sucks" comment
All kidding aside.. After I was there for a time, I got a lot more comfortable (I’m quite fluent, and even I was fumbling for words when people were just firing it off at me— like I was over-thinking my response). I had to go through that and I learned Arabic as a child. It ain’t easy.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Hm?
The thing about Rocky Sucks was just a joke— because you’re Samoan.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
You're both right
It IS intimidating to speak a second language to native crowds. I had to do it in China, Japan, and Switzerland, but I’ve found that folks dig the effort more than the fluency, esp if they know you’re not a local. Cro Cop did post-fight in Pride. He managed a halting “hello” and “how are you” before deferring to his translator. Funny stuff. Even he thought so, but the crowd ate it up.
That said, Silva is indeed under no pressure to learn English. The choice, and consequences, are his to own, period.
Now, you two hug it out, bitch (ref: Entourage)
i actually was bilingual with spanish, but time has passed so now i could just get by with it. and all of what your saying are valid points. but i certainly think he carries a smug air with him, and have become less and less a fan, especially after what he did to forrest in the ring. extending his hand was mocking forrest, who has only ever been glowing in his description of anderson.
I think after this amount of time, being in a company owned by english speaking people, knowing that he is quite capable of it, i just don’t like that he refuses to speak to the fans that way. Its just my personal opinion, but i would love to here his own words instead of a translators. I mean, big nog and wandy speak english, even knowing it certainly isnt the best. But i think most people in america nowadays are perfectly accustomed to dealing with those who speak broken english, so i don’t believe in the intimidation factor. I’ve spoken spanish to people in mexico and spain, and never been intimidated even though i was never fluent.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
You don't believe in the intimidation factor?
My take is in first person.
I fundamentally disagree with everything you’re saying. I also think it’s a totally unpopular opinion. But you have your’s, and I’ll have mine.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
i was certainly not implying that it wasnt intimidating for you, but i dont agree that because you and others have had that experience, that is the root of andersons reasoning.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Endearing
I’ve always found that foreign born guys in the UFC who speak really broken english come off very well and are endearing. Wanderlei Silva comes to mind. He clearly struggles with the English language but he tries really hard with it and its hard not to like him when you listen to him talk. Same goes for GSP. To the other point if you watch some of his post-fight press conferences there are times when he will struggle to say something in English and he gets red and embarrassed and apologizes.
I liken it to playing guitar. When its just me and I’m moving along and playing I’m thinking that I’m doing good and gain confidence. And then I get around a guy who has been playing for 30 years and he does it so effortlessly that I lose any confidence I had. If I were to play around a guy like that it would be very easy for him to tell how bad I am and that brings on a feeling of embarrassment. Whether its justified or not and even if the guy would get endeared to me for trying so hard.
Thats basically what I think the situation is for Anderson. He might be able to do it to an extent but not like we can and he probably doesn’t want to embarrass himself.
I don’t think people had an issue with it until there were articles written that were saying that Soares wasn’t translating exactly what Silva was saying. That pissed people off.
To Soares credit he has said that he is far from a professional translater.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
- Forrest didn’t have a problem with Silva extending his hands
- SIlva refuses to speak to the fans . . . his english is poor but he has tried.
- Big Nog & Wandy speak english . . . maybe because they were able to afford lessons at an earlier age? It may be a factor.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
i would at least learn a few lines to say to the crowd to let them know i appreciate them for coming to see me, and pay me
He tries to say few words in English after most of his fights.
by dancingChicken on Feb 11, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
Didn’t think Chael was trying to give the “speak English or die” message. He made the statement that Anderson Silva speaks fluent English after having a conversation with him. Chael says he just chooses not to.
You misinterpret
I didn’t say Chael felt that way, I was responding to a comment that seemed to imply something along those lines.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
- Ed Soares games that blackhouse
. . . you’re taking that crap way too serious. Soares has little to any influence on Dana White or Joe Silva. SIlva didn’t want to face Leites but he did. - Silva and English? Did you hear him say “thank you.”
“It’s a pretty Americana sentiment that everyone should speak English” -Blackout612 on
Question: After all their years in Japan, does Wanderlei, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Cro-Cop, Shogun, Chuck Liddell, or any of the Brazilain fighter you alluded to LEARN JAPANESE?!?
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly
People don’t care if they learned Japanese— they just want everyone to speak English.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Feb 11, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
I was just watching Critical Countdown 2004 yesterday
and I already forgot who it was, but there was one fighter who tried to say a few words in Japanese.
I also know that Jason Miller has learned a few choice words in Portuguese and more Japanese. According to him, it’s just enough to “shit talk.”
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
None of the above are my favorite heel.
Nick Diaz and Josh Koscheck are my heels of choice. Koscheck for being the last hope to beat GSP and Diaz for don’t-give-a-fuckery.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
paulo thiago will beat gsp. and I agree about Diaz, he’s the man. props to coining don’t give a fuckery
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think Paulo can beat GSP
if GSP really respects his ground game that much. That’s the only reason he stood with Serra so long, was to soften him on the feet before getting into the guard of a Renzo black belt. If he did the same thing with Paulo, he’d be eating dirt.
Really though, Koscheck is the only guy I see who has the wrestling to stay on his feet against GSP and the standup/power to make use of that skill. Hell, he might even take GSP down a few times. It’s a sick rematch to be had, and I want five rounds of it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Really though, Koscheck is the only guy I see who has the wrestling to stay on his feet against GSP… Hell, he might even take GSP down a few times.
That’s pretty much the exact opposite of their first fight.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
GSP took Kos down twice, Kos took GSP down once in the first fight. What he’s saying is hardly beyond the realm of possibility.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Exactly.
Not saying it’s likely, but the fight can be competitive now with Koscheck’s improved boxing. If he can make GSP worry about takedowns (no small feat), sprawl or scramble out of a few of GSPs (no small feat), and get into a rhythm on his feet when they have mutual respect for each other’s wrestling (no small feat) then he’s got a good chance to win. Add in the fact that both guys are insanely well conditioned, it will be a fun fight at the very least. I’d be stoked for Kos vs. GSP with little to nothing supporting it, can’t say the same about GSP vs. Hardy.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Don’t get me wrong: Kos-GSP is definitely more intruiging that GSP-Hardy (and now I have to watch that fight on pins and needles for fear that I’ve jinxed GSP). But as much as Kos has improved in the last (wow, it’s actually been…) 2+ years, so has GSP. His wrestling is even better, his gameplanning is second to none, and he’s bigger and stronger now than before. I just don’t see anything to suggest a different outcome, except that maybe this time when GSP gets Kos down, he passes the shit out of his guard (something else he’s improved at) and pounds him out from half guard or dope guard.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
That's true
but it’s the last fight I think we need to see at WW before GSP moves up. I’d root for Kos (not sure why) but put money on GSP as low as -350. If it doesn’t happen and GSP vacates, I can easily picture Koscheck as a champion if he acts smart. Rematch with Alves with a proper training camp… fuck yes.
I can’t wait for Kos vs. Daley to get closer, the shit-talk express is gonna be crazy. I haven’t made a from-the-heart pick on that fight yet. It’s gonna be totally contingent on who has better self-promotion.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Fair point.
And I suppose I should admit that Kos has won me over to him as a fighter; I think he needs to fight smarter at times because he has a remarkable skill set and great athletic gifts, but I’ll admit I get excited for his matches now. And he certainly is the kind of guy who could legitimately beat any other fighter in the WW division; I think Alves is still a tough fight for him, but yes I want that rematch too.
I feel like a Twilight fan in how excited I’m getting for the madness that will be Kos-Daley. I haven’t honestly been this stoked for a fight since Penn-GSP II, and it was a long time before that. It’s just one of those matches where you would not be surprised by absolutely anything happening short of Daley taking Kos down and submitting him.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Daley by inverted triangle
is the only outcome that will shock me. If it’s Kos by KO, then he needs a title shot now. If Daley wins, he’ll be the last body fed to GSP before the MW run begins.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Yeah, I get the feeling that Daley can possibly KO all WW contenders but will never match up against GSP.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
I was going to add both of those guys (or consolidate the Diaz Bros)
..but I didn’t want there to be so many options.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Right, understood.
Where would you place Kos though? He seems to have the ego of Mir, the shit talking and intelligence of Tito, and he doesn’t work the crowd to well either. But somehow, I can’t help but root for him, even at 106 when the whole crowd was booing. I think it’s that he backs up all of the talk with his willingness to take any fight on any notice… and usually do pretty effing well. Don’t act like you didn’t feel a little encouraged when he said “I’m gonna go talk shit on Twitter.”
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I like Kos, too
For him, you can tell he’s not playing the heel. He’s just brash and confident, says what he feels and is clearly disconcerted with having a dedicated fan base. He’s in the mix, for sure. A lot of other guys I’d like to include if I could, like Daley— while we’re at it.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Oh dang.
I forgot Daley, that’s the other guy I was forgetting. The shotgun on Hazelett was a thing of heelish beauty.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I loved it
People went all Joe Buck on it like “my WORD, he wants him to DIE?”. Give me a break. I hope he does it after every fight.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Roughhouse must have a heel instructor, because Daley and Hardy both come off great to me. They aren’t pretending to be so serious, and just telling it like it is, and they’re not pissed, they’re practically gleeful and having a great time. Playing it like it’s just another game.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 11, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions
he should never have appologized for that. It was way more passionate and way less contrived than that stupid “grave digger” shit that Tito and a couple of other guys pull. It looked like a guy who had just smoked his opponent as hard as it is possible to do being overcome with the emotional rollercoaster of “triumph”. And I’m okay with that.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Koscheck vs. Daley will be great
The Pre-Fight = Koscheck has already attacked Daley’s teeth and Daley attacked Kos’ hair. Daley already issued a Photoshop contest. He plans on handing Koscheck the winning image during the pre-fight presser.
The Fight. = Will Koscheck stand or take him down and unleash some ground and pound? Will Daley simply knock this mF’er out?
Post Fight = The trash in the post fight will be brutal because one of these guys will be the loser.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly, I get the feeling that Daley doesn’t have the take down defence or striking reach to make this competitive if Kos decides to just take him down and pound him out repeatedly. I just hope Kos decides to box, at least for a little while, because with all his power, Daley is MUCH faster and more technically sound and has the kind of KO power that most guys would give their left nut for.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Hopefully Kos is not that stupid to stand with him.
If Daley cant stop the takedown Kos wins… if he can stop it then its gonna be a hurtful evening for Kos.
If Kos is smart, he learned a lesson from the godawful disaster that was the Rumble fight – when he started plowing through Johnson with his wrestling, it got really ugly, really fast.
I hear tell that Daley’s wrestling has improved, and tht he’s much harder to take down these days. But we’ll see; Kos HAS taken down GSP, Diego, Rumble…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
It amazes me how they fucked Koschek up by turning the best wrestler in the division into an amateur kickboxer….
Unreal. Imagine if Brock and his trainers were that stupid where he’d be?
Kos needs to look at Cain in the rothwell fight as the model of what kind of fighter he needs to be.
If you have better cardio and better wrestling than the other guy 9 out of 10 times you win.
All koschek should have been focusing on was sub defense, ground and pound, cardio and just enough striking to defend himself and set up shots… He’d be a monster. Hughes 2.0.
Instead those geniuses had him stop training wrestling and only focus primarily on kickboxing for the last few years.
His wrestling is still there and powerful.
Look at the Rumble fight. He was gonna run the pipe through the fence and six rows back until he finished that double. And he really needed to become more well rounded. Hughes hasn’t faded, the game passed him by. Kos emulating that would have been a disaster.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
His wrestling is not there… Rumble was gassed out. Kos couldnt even take Alves down. GSP took alves down at will.
Could it come back… sure. But he trained inefficiently for his established skill set.
They even tried doing the same with Cain (turning him into an amateur kickboxer)… but he was smart enough when as soon as he tasted Kongo’s right hand to know what was up.
He came back in the Rothwell fight with the perfect model for his skill set.
That's BS.
Kos took the Alves fight on two weeks[ish] notice. And he took it to Rumble before the gas out.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Brock Has a Dangerous Jab.
I don’t think Brock’s wrestling and top control game will ever leave him . . .
If Brock trainers were smart, they would freaking teach him how to simply take advantage of his jab. When ever a fighter faces a Lennox Lewis or Klitschko, they have to solve one HUGE problem, the reach advantage. Both Lewis and Klitschko have jabs so dangerous they rarely have to employ any other weapon in their arsenal. I really think Brock can use that as a weapon. After all, what are Lesnar’s opponents going to do?
- Try to go inside and clinch?
- Try to take him down?
Like Randy Couture said, he totally neglected Lesnar’s reach. It’s deceptively strong. And I’m sure Mir can attest to the power of Lesnar’s jab. F*ck an uppercut, go for the direct approach . . . jab, jab, stick and move, jab, jab.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Klitschko has
ruled the HW division with this exact approach.
That’s why it amazes him when I see strong taller fighters that fail to employ that approach. Fighting 101- use your physical advantages. If you’re tall, fight like a tall man is supposed to fight . . . like Klistchsko. If you have immense size, fight like Roy Nelson and smother your opponents on the ground.
It is kind of a bummer that we don’t anything more from Klitchscko but it is all about getting the W and it is the smart direct approach.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’m late, but I gotta rec this for a perfect articulation of a super-Brock.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 14, 2010 5:56 AM EST up reply actions
The thing that he does so well is get to half guard, and then he just holds guys down with his hips and messes them up with his elbows and fists. Once you’re on the ground with him, it’s just painful and harsh and relentless.
Thing is, now that people know his standup is powerful, his wrestling SHOULD be that much more effective, because his opponents can’t just wait for the takedown. But he just does not need to box as much as he does.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
The reason why Chael is the best heel
is because he’s eloquent and uses more vocabulary than the others. He’s the smartest guy on this list.
"In Russia, Hell goes to you!"
Wanderlei: "Me, afraid of Bisping? Stop the jokes!"
That’s highly debatable. To me, he’s just more honest about what happens to him inside the cage. Frank Mir is way more eloquent than Chael Sonnen.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I think Chael is definitely more eloquent than Mir
He’s also guilty of trying to speak above his intelligence (how often do you catch him pausing to look for the work he wants?).
I also don’t think that’s what makes Chael more competent (let’s be fair— he’s not like the most well-spoken guy on earth, he’s just jiving). Unfiltered is what I call it.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Mir
You don’t notice that he often pauses to browse his internal thesaurus instead of saying what comes naturally?
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
I do notice that
But the fact that he has an internal thesaurus just makes him seem more eloquent to me, because he knows words Chael can’t even spell.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
dude. theres no way you can know that. not a single chance. chael is smart enough to be considered by the republican party EVEN while being a fighter. That says something in of itself.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Of course I can’t. That was more of a joke than anything.
As for Chael, there have been plenty of instances that I’ve seen him say some ridiculous stuff. But I’m not trying to make this a pissing contest or anything. I just think Frank comes across as more eloquent. Plenty of wiggle room there though.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
No it doesn't
Palin was nominated to be the VP and that crazy bitch thinks people rode dinosaurs.
Just last week people were laughing at Chael for making up silly words, ffs.
by Chris Barton on Feb 10, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Credit to Chael--
He doesn’t have any of his comments written on his palm.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
he also doesnt refer to his own child with down syndrome as a retard.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Totally off topic
but retard is one of the medical terms for having downs, as well as any other form of retardation. If I didn’t think she did it because she’s simply stupid, I’d applaud her for it.
Society keeps shifting goals posts on what’s acceptable to call the handicapped/challenged/retarded people. I think it’s insulting.
by Chris Barton on Feb 10, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
a handicapped person is a retard. does it mean its socially acceptable to refer to your owned mentally handicapped child as a retard? nope, i’ve known far too many people in both the special education programs and with retarded members of their family that loathe that word.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
for the sake of detractors, i should say mentally handicapped people can often medically be referred to as a retard, or retarded. that is what i mean.
by Austin Martin on Feb 10, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
Please refer to
Society keeps shifting goals posts on what’s acceptable to call the handicapped/challenged/retarded people. I think it’s insulting.
by Chris Barton on Feb 10, 2010 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Language constantly changes, it’s what language does, is that insulting? There are countless words for countless peoples that are no longer deemed appropriate. While the word “retarded” does still have some institutional use that isn’t at all intentionally derogatory, it’s an outmoded term. Only partially due to its derogatory status, but because it is vague and inaccurate. Language shifts, keep up.
by bigstupidsmile on Feb 11, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
It's the "why"
You’re correct that language is colloquial but the REASON we keep having to shift goal posts on what we call the handicapped is why it’s insulting.
We come up with a term to call handicapped people, the general population immediately starts using it as an insult. Once it becomes an insult people start feeling uncomfortable (see: over-sensitive wusses) using it to describe ACTUAL handicapped people. Then we change it again.
People need to just realize the term will always be an insult and deal with it.
by Chris Barton on Feb 11, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I would agree
but it’s “un-understandable” to me.
by Chris Barton on Feb 10, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I personally much prefer someone to speak to their ability, rather than stumble over words. Chael hasn’t said anything to make me think he couldn’t speak more intelligently, that’s the difference.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
It's not that Chael uses big words
its that he can put together sentences and give original statements. His thoughts are unique and i appreciate fighters who can say something other than the typical fighter jargon.
I mean I loved that whole strip club / showtime quote, and I like strikeforce. he’s an original character, MMA needs that.
"In Russia, Hell goes to you!"
Wanderlei: "Me, afraid of Bisping? Stop the jokes!"
by actionbastard on Feb 10, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
Mo isn’t really a heel, at least not yet. He is more like a worker-in-training.
Tito Ortiz has his moments (calling Forrest a “TV Fighter” for example"), but everyone else on this list does the exact same thing. All they’re really doing to separate themselves from all the other MMA fighters is indulging the media when they get asked cheesey WWE-type questions. Once reporters know they can rely on a fighter to go along with the schtick, they usually run with it… like the last week’s cavalcade of Chael Sonnen quotes.
There still hasn’t been a real defining heel in MMA, just a lot of straight-forward shit talkers.
Smoogy, do you think there’s anyone fighting right now with the potential to be that guy?
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Well, King Mo definitely has that potential down the road, because he has the most zeal for kayfabe. This is an MMA fighter who talks about studying old pro wrestling footage of guys cutting promos in his interviews and isn’t just a real fan of fight sports, he understands how MMA fans think. I think he will oscillate between face and heel like most great workers, but either way he will work some complex, high-concept angles once he figures out how to control the MMA media.
Lots of times I have to wonder if BJ Penn is just working a kayfabe angle with opponents. He seems to be a connoisseur of building classic pro wrestling style heat for fights.
Sure, he is a great worker in MMA terms because he knows how to weave the artificial hype in with his real feelings. He might be a hot-shot who belittles his opponents, but he backs it up, to put it as simply as possible. And on top of that, he is a naturally resonant character: The Aloof Hawaiian Surfer Guy. Kind of like how if GSP was just another American wrestler and not a telegenic dude with a funny Quebec accent, he might not be half the star he is now. This is part of why I think Alistair Overeem will be a superstar when he finally comes back to the U.S.: he looks like a Street Fighter character, he has the funny accent factor, and he loves to talk trash, but not in a cartoonish way. He brings a lot to the table.
Nick Diaz
is my favorite, by far. And I don’t smoke weed.
He is from a very bad place, so this has allowed him to be “rough” around the edges. His verbal beat downs are not wasted on only his opponents but everyone he disagrees with. He verbally assaulted Shamrock, gave him the finger at the weigh ins then helped him up after he beat the hell out of him. He can shit talk about fighters, promotions, trainers, social agendas, and athletic commissions like no other.
Very interesting read.
See, I rarely don’t care about “heels” – they bore me. I rarely care what their personalities are – I just want them to fight. Nick Diaz is about the only one I enjoy because it simply isn’t an act and he backs it up (I don’t like Nate). I can’t stand Kos because I think he’s an idiot, heel or not. I immensely respect Brock as a fighter, but listening to him speak reminds me of why I don’t like people. I enjoyed Mo’s shtick in Japan with the call-and-response, but now he’s celebrating like a rock star when he’s barely second-tier. At least Chael backs his shit up (which is the only thing that makes it tolerable for me). Him beating the tar out of Nate did more for me than all his smack-talk. For some reason, aside from his Brock obsession, Mir doesn’t bother me – not sure why.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 10, 2010 11:47 PM EST reply actions
Not that much...
Though I’m not the kill-everyone-in-a-blaze-of-glory hater, more the reclusive type. The vast majority of people are superficial, petty, ignorant animals, and I don’t like dealing with that. When the human race decides to get its act together, I’ll consider rejoining.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 11, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think you are taking way too short a view on TIto
Tito’s act may have worn thin lately, but his early run in the UFC is the gold standard for lovable heels. People absolutely loved him when he was a brash kid who had the cahones to piss off one of the scariest gyms in the sport. His heel run from UFC 19 through UFC 40 was legendary. From flipping Ken the bird to doing the gravedigger to making homoerotic T-shirts, the guy could do no wrong.
Then he started ducking Chuck Liddell, crying after getting spanked by Randy Couture, and eventually smashed by Chuck, and the lovable heel turned into a pathetic sap. From UFC 44 through UFC 59, Tito had basically lost all his heat and was no longer a lovable heel. Then pulled a miraculous phoenix from the ashes routine on TUF 3, revived his career, and once again became a bankable heel. His second Shammy fight did booming business on PPV, the the third Shammy fight shattered ratings records, and the rematch with Chuck shattered PPV records. Tito was back as one of the biggest stars in the sport.
Tito has had two wildly successful runs as the most polarizing heel in the sport. Injuries and and contract disputes have derailed the twilight of career, but that doesn’t erase the enormous success of the first two acts of his of his career. Tito is still one of the greatest heels this sport has ever seen.
by Steve4192 on Feb 11, 2010 8:45 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
1000% agree.
Excellently articulated point.
I wasn’t lucky enough to be a real-time fan during those early days, but I couldn’t believe some of the stuff he did when I saw it during the obligatory ‘History of the sport’ catch up viewing/reading when I fell in love with MMA.
Rec’d
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Feb 11, 2010 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
It’s Tito’s lack of an ability to reinvent himself that leads to him being what he is now. After a decade of the same old act it’s grown rather stale and annoying. You are right that he had an amazing run in his day but his act isn’t timeless (like a Rick Flair’s) it’s just whiney and also unlike pro wresting they can’t just book him to keep winning even though his in ring game hasn’t advanced in ten years either. Tito is still going to draw decent numbers just because a lot of people want to see him get punched in the face and he will undoubtably tear it up on TUF but his shtick is just worn out.
It’s Tito’s lack of an ability to reinvent himself that leads to him being what he is now.
I disagree.
Tito did a great job at reinventing himself on TUF 3.
He went from a lovable heel to a straight-up babyface. He resurrected his career and probably could have kept the momentum going were it not for his back and his ill-timed contract squabble. He showed a ton of heart in the second Chuck fight, was one foul away from beating Rashad, and nearly pulled off the impossible against Machida prior to taking a year-and-a-half vacation. Unfortunately, that sabbatical and his injuries pretty much destroyed his momentum.
Don’t be surprised if Tito reinvents himself again on TUF 11. I’m not convinced that Chuck can even remotely approach his old abilities. If Tito once again shines on the reality show and then pulls off a win versus his wildly popular nemesis, his career as a draw could be right back on track. I doubt he will ever be a serious contender again, but he might be able to squeak out another couple of years as a major draw.
Tito was a dick on TUF, it’s just that the guy he was on there with was Clueless Ken Shamrock. He didn’t come out of that re-invented, he just came out of it introduced to the new fans of the sport that weren’t around before he played contract games the first time around. This time he is on TUF with a guy who has the personality of a piece of driftwood but even the “TUF noobs” have seen the act before. These newer fans weren’t there for the days when he was dominating the sport they just saw the last run where he insulted everyone with wild over the top statements, got whooped and made lots and lots of excuses. It’s the same old Tito only now he is running his mouth but hasn’t won a fight since 2006.
by who me on Feb 11, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I enjoyed your retrospective, but this article doesn’t care about Tito in 2005— it’s about these fighters today. The reason he applies as an unsuccessful heel is because the way he’s doing things now rubs people the wrong way.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Feb 11, 2010 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not surprised Cheal leads in the poll. He has great PR skills. It’s not a coincidence that he works as a real estate agent and is involved in politics. The guy knows how to talk. I wouldn’t be surprised if he talked Nate into buying a real estate during that beatdown.
by dancingChicken on Feb 11, 2010 10:23 AM EST reply actions
Chael and Mir are my favorites… King Mo doesn’t have the self esteem to pull it off. Hardy is great but half the audience doesn’t understand him.
Fighters need to study and train in this discipline just like they do JJ, wrestling and striking… if you dont have the look or flashy fighting style you better compensate with personality.
Like the great gap in striking ability we are currently seeing and how we saw it with BJJ… we too will see it with “Engineered Character”.
Chael, Mir and Brock = upapologetic
Nothing is really fake when it comes to those guys.
- Even with his off-kilter remarks about pink shirts and neighborhoods I get the sense that Chael Sonnen is simply saying what he feels with a little comedic exaggeration. I agree, he definitely holds the title for King Sh*t Talker. Unlike many other guys, he hasn’t backtracked, or apologized. He’s not even trying to say Fighter A or B are nice guys.
- Mir, what’s not to like? He knows his sh*t. He’s a fan. He’s a little over top and doesn’t bite his tongue with cliches when assessing another fighter’s skills. I love watching him lose and watching him win.
- Brock. How real can you get? He doesn’t give a flying f*ck about your opinions. He’s generally totally un-PC, all about his daughter and doing his wife. Even when he makes awkward comments like “I’m built like a black man,” and sends a big middle finger to a major corporate sponsor . . . Brock Lesnar wins. “The fans want a real heavyweight fighter.”
Tito is so contrived at this point and Mo is trying to work it up.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
Brock is an interesting case.
I am fascinated by Brock as a fighter, impressed by his athleticism, and intruiged by his matches.
I am repelled by him as a person, terrified of his politics, and stunned at his nearly sociopathic disregard for and dislike of most of society.
I have absolutely no personal problem with him speaking his opinions, and I refuse to be personally offended by him even on issues where I think he’s ridiculously wrong about people like myself because at least he is honestly speaking his mind. Maybe that’s paradoxical or hypocritical, but I think he’s an interesting character in this sport, and probably the only “heel” that I give a crap about (in the sense of their being a heel rather than just a fighter).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
As an athlete, I’m totally fascinated. He reminds of Hakeem Olajuwan as a center in the NBA playing like a shooting guard or small forward BUT ONLY BETTER. Oh yeah, he’s definitely a character.
I understand. I really don’t get caught up in fighters on a personal level nor offended by what they say. There’s a serious disconnect between what he see and hear through the media. A guy like Lesnar may be the most personable, sociable guy away from the cameras while beloved fighters like Couture or GSP may be pricks. Some guys are really guarded while others have learned the art of scripted-cliched responses from the school of Michael Jordan.
There are many fake heels, guys trying their best to become hated to get attention, guys like Bisping, Ortiz and one of the best – Money Mayweather Jr. the character. Floyd Mayweather knows that a cocky, arrogant braggart will garner negative attention but attention nonetheless. He decided to talk up race-a little bit, his unblemished record and his superior skills. He knows and has admitted that his style of fighting will not entertain general audience because he’s a very technical, defensive fighter without KO power. He also became aware that after all of his career wins, he would never be loved like the Golden Boy, Oscar De La Hoya. I find it kind of odd when some fans become so heavily invested in the characters that they HATE athletes like Mayweather. He’s not going to be himself in front of the cameras. It’s a show.
yeah yeah yeah . . .
by VeeisAnimated on Feb 11, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Of the guys you listed, I like two of them.
Frank Mir and Chael Sonnen
I cannot stand Brock Lesnar.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Eh
If I go there, then I need to add Steve Cantwell, too.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Not even close to being similar.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Shame
You must have missed it.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Aoki was a prick before, during, and after the fight in a lot of ways.
Cantwell is a kid who slipped in an emotional moment of winning his UFC debut. Not even close. Cantwell isn’t even as bad as Mir, who constantly talks about intentional limb snapping. Even Megumi Fuji comes to mind before Steve.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Honestly
I don’t give a shit if you like Cantwell; they’re both most popularly known for a single defiant act and that was very similar in nature. I’m not a psychologist and I’m pretty sure you aren’t either. You’re saying Aoki meant it more? Okay d00d..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
I said nothing of the sort.
Cantwell is not a heel because of one thing. He said something stupid then apologized. Beyond that, he’s been a respectful competitor. Aoki has been famous for a long time and was shit talking before and after the Hirota fight.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
He didn't SAY what he did
He did what he did.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
So you are saying that breaking a limb on a guy who won't tap makes you a heel?
Was Sakuraba a heel after the Renzo fight? Maynard said he tried to break Huerta’s shoulder with that kimura, is his failure all that makes it different?
My stance: Frank Mir breaking limbs after saying he wants to break shit and end careers = heel. Cantwell snapping an arm when a guy clearly wouldn’t tap = finishing a sub.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Dude, PLEASE
I don’t give a shit if he breaks it— didn’t you see what he did after? Give it up man..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 13, 2010 3:53 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Perfect.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Feb 13, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'll green that
I have an awesome Larry the Ax Hennig t-shirt that was given to me by him when I was a child.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
pics or gtfo
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Feb 14, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Haha
I totally will. Gotta find it and take a pic, just remind me..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Feb 14, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Gracias senor
How did my post get back into the fanposts? It’s magic.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Ed Hardy is IMO one of the funniest people in the UFC
"And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine patris, et filii...et spiritus sancti."
Nice post man.
Spot on with the Tito Ortiz one.
by HappyLittleTreez on Mar 1, 2010 9:53 PM EST reply actions
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