Was DREAM the Biggest Loser at Strikeforce: Miami?
by Kid Nate on Feb 1, 2010 4:30 PM EST
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That's what they think over at Head Kick Legend:
Of course the big stories were the Strikeforce debuts of Melvin Manhoef and DREAM Welterweight Champion Marius Zaromskis. Manhoef showed the world what a pro-kickboxer from K-1 is capable of, piecing together blistering combinations and destroying Robbie Lawler's leg with leg kicks. Lawler spent most of the fight covering up and hoping he wouldn't die against Manhoef before Manhoef got caught with a looping right hook that put him down and a left hand that put him out. Even in defeat, Melvin Manhoef made a giant impression on the American audience watching tonight and will no doubt be booked in Strikeforce again.
Zaromskis on the other hand was completely decimated by Nick Diaz. Zaromskis did at one point catch Diaz, but was unable to finish off the Stockton badboy and was actually KO'd by a hook from Diaz, who is not known for his punching power. Diaz, the renowned BJJ fighter won this fight on his feet against a man insiders were saying would upset Diaz if the fight was left standing.
In both cases here, the DREAM fighters looked like they should have been in a lower weight class. Of course in Japan weight-cutting isn't as extreme as it is in the United States and Melvin Manhoef has wins over legitimate top heavyweights.
Jake Rossen agrees:
In their starry-eyed optimism, Dream officials may have believed they were sending Zaromskis and Manhoef on bombing missions to the States. Instead, both men were wrecked by fighters belonging to Strikeforce. And if Zaromskis had happened to win the welterweight title, it could've been several months before he came back around to defend it.
Co-promotion is a noble idea, but what's good for fans isn't necessarily good for business. And if it's not good for business, that business might not last. If Strikeforce insists on these matches, the introduction of a separate world title might be in order.
I have to say, I just hope this doesn't mess up the Shinya Aoki vs Gilbert Melendez lightweight title fight.
Mike Chiappetta points out another issue with bringing Aoki over for an instant title shot:
...if Strikeforce is truly trying to engage the middle America sports fans who just tune in from time to time, Aoki, Sakurai and Toughill may not be the best choices. Why? Because none of them have ever competed on a Strikeforce show. Many fans have no clue who they are.
How, a fan might ask, is a first-time Strikeforce fighter already competing for a title? It's happened before, of course (Zaromskis was a first-time Strikeforce participant when he faced Diaz on Saturday), but it's hard for a casual fan to develop into a regular fan of a promotion when even the top-level fighters are constantly shuffled in and out.
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weight cutting
Zaromskis looked more like a LW than Manhoef did a WW. thing is, both those guys are pretty short and stacked. I don’t think Manhoef needs to cut, as he has both great speed and power for a MW, but Zaromskis looks like he should be a LW, although I don’t know how severely it would affect his KO power.
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
Its too bad MMA isnt set up in a way that fighters wouldnt have to deal with weight cutting to gain advantage. Think how much more competitive fights would be if every single fighter was fighting at their natural weight class
“natural weight” is such a hard to judge thing. anderson silva used to fight at 170, now he fights at 185 and sometimes at 205. he was damn good at every weight, what is his natural weight? the weight he felt at his best fighting at? the weight he looked the most dominant at? the weight feels the best at? the weight he’d usually be at a couple months from a fight, the weight he’d be at before he currently starts his weight cut? what exactly is a “natural weight”?
by K Krush on Feb 1, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you can gain 20lbs in 24 hours and still look ripped, you weren’t at your natural weight.
That said, looser weight classes, which is ultimately the only way to discourage hard core weight cutting (even though some could still take advantage), is how you end up with Bobb Sapp , Dan Bobish type freak shows.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
Cutting weight is ingrained in wrestling culture and as long as college wrestlers migrate to MMA it will always be a part of the sport. The only way to fight it (imo) is to make weight classes more spread out so the cut would be harder, but then some fighters would still cut to make weight and it would become an issue of fighter safety. Also, there is the possibility of a Brock Lesnar fighting an Anderson Silva type athlete. I think the way the system is set up now is fine, if anything they need to add a weight class around 235 and call it heavy weight, and replace current heavy weight division with an absolute division with no weight limit so people like Lesnar and Carwin no longer have to cut.
the only issue i see with cutting the HW division in two is that there really isnt alot of the bigger guys to fill out the upper half. Most of the high level HWs can cut to the lower end and will do so. I think of three or four that would compete in the upper level weight not many more. Carwin, lesnar, Mir, and nelson.
Japanese casual fans don’t care as much about what happens in the States as we think they do.
by madiq on Feb 1, 2010 4:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
^ This
Honestly, they don’t care that much about wins and losses period. The “win or you suck” mindset is strictly a western thing.
by Steve4192 on Feb 1, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
i’ve always been very curious as to how hard Japanese fans follow MMA in America. Id love to see a fanpost or article covering this.. Or you’ll just have to wait till I go to Asia later in the year.
The guys I know in Japan who casually follow MMA know about the UFC and are familiar with many of its fighters, some of them have even featured in Japanese commercial spots, but none of them actively follow UFC events. I don’t really know why. Part of it might be because they are shown so late at night on Japanese TV.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by in the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito Ortiz
EXACTLY!!!!!!!
have these guys been to japan and met MMA fans over there?
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Feb 1, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much. The vast majority of them have probably no idea what Strikeforce is…
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
I suppose they’re just DREAM fans instead of MMA fans.
Keep firing Assholes!
Mind numbing, tedious and ultimately self defeating.
by Ubernoober on Feb 1, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Zing
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
Good point, kind of
There are MMA fans in Japan and they follow everything, much like we do. Then there are the fairweather fans, the ones that tune in for Bobby Olgun fights at Dynamite!! or to see Bob Sapp.
In Japan they’ll use “fought in the US” to promote these guys now, if they won they’d call them like Strikeforce destroyers or something, just how it goes.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
I'm going with Rex Ryan
who is being balsted on NFL live and Jim Rome is burning for giving the finger to the fans at Strikeforce : Miami. Rome mentioned that it was Strikeforce well NFL live just said it was an mma event.
On a more serious note is Dream really going to loan Aoki and Sakurai to Strikeforce? What exactly are they getting out of this deal? A few plugs in on Strikeforce shows? Overeem?
What happens if Aoki and Sakurai lose? Then Dream comes out of this whole co-promotion looking like shit. Yes I would pick Aoki over Melendez but you never klnow.
What happens if Aoki and Sakurai lose? Then Dream comes out of this whole co-promotion looking like shit.
… in North America.
Japanese fans don’t give a shit about what happens over here. Sakurai will still be Sakurai, Aoki will still be Aoki, and a loss over here won’t change that. DREAM doesn’t give two shits what Americans think of their fighters.
This whole rex ryan thing is ridiculous. What were they thinking interviewing him live in front oof the crowd? Why would he agree if he wasn’t going to be able to keep his cool?
he lost his cool? he made a dig at the end, but i didn’t think it was anything serious. after being booed like that i think it would have been odd for him not to say something.
Co-promotion not a good idea?
Well I never wouldve thought that.
by ufc4 on Feb 1, 2010 5:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Rex Ryan needs to go on The Biggest Loser
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/20/rex-ryans-diet-7000-calor_n_429155.html
or else that motherfucker is D-E-A-D!
by SilverNBlackZach! on Feb 1, 2010 5:27 PM EST reply actions
Don Vito from Viva La Bam
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
I blog about stuff too.
If Robbie Lawler doesn’t connect with that overhand right, all these articles have no merit. He was getting completely outclassed on his feet, and to the average viewer, looked as though he didn’t belong in the cage with Manhoef. I think everybody is jumping the gun too early due to having little else to write about and sensationalism.
Please... this is already played out
The article is about a current debate of a few facts. The outcome of the fight is already etched in stone and the lucky punch theorists have all died down and gone to bed.
What are the facts? While Zaromskis may represent the DREAM Welterweight division, Manhoef by no way represents the best DREAM has to offer. It was only five months ago he was submitted by a still unstable Paulo Filho in DREAM 10.
It is true that if Robbie doesn’t land that overhand right, he may land a similar, even more deadly shot, if the fight continued. I am not debating this. I am “debating” this whole co-promotion between DREAM and Strikeforce is bad illusion.
I think their Tourney winner is a bigger deal to their fanbase than a part-time MMA fighter like Manhoef.
by asa on Feb 1, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
If Robbie Lawler doesn’t connect with that overhand right, all these articles have no merit.
if reality weren’t reality?
Understood. All I am saying is that Manhoef’s domination for the entire fight should not be thrown to the side.
George St. Pierre Vs Matt Sera.
they are both legit victories.
If anything, the fact that it was the first punch lawler through, gives more credance to the fact that it was lawler’s plan all along.
It is true that if Robbie doesn’t land that overhand right, he may land a similar, even more deadly shot, if the fight continued. I am not debating this. I am "debating" this whole co-promotion between DREAM and Strikeforce is bad illusion.
There are lots of questions to be brought up about the super mega alliance.
Why doesn’t the mega alliance involve sharing video? Some Manhoef Ko’s or Zaromskis head kicks could have helped in the build up to these fights, and they would make people a lot more excited about what diaz and Lawler did.
The weight thing is also a big deal. This is a giant sign to Dream that size will be a significant issue when they send fighters over. Why send their best guys over to fight people bigger than them and get little back in return?
All good points, I too was surprised that Strikeforce used very little highlights to promote the fighters, but they did, if I recall correctly, show a brief highlight of Manhoef from his fight with Misaki, which was odd.
I think the co-promotion will only be in jeopardy if Aoki fights Melendez and loses badly. Aoki has become the face of the organization, and for him to lose handily would not reflect well on DREAM and its fighters.
This is some of why I never thought the sharing of talent between DREAM and Strikeforce would work beyond a couple events. It isn’t gonna take very long for one side to realize they aren’t getting equal value out of the deal and that will be the end of it.
Just BE.
I just don’t get why people got all excited when they had the big announcement of this big “alliance” that for some reason caused everyone to start acting like they were 100% working together all the time. They shared fighters before the announcement, they’re sharing fighters now. Nothing has really changed, except the expectations for them working together.
If anything, this will slow down dream’s willingness to send over their top fighters. Japanese people probably don’t care about them losing (especially in the US) but they will lose some footing with the hardcore fans, who I think they care about a little. Even if they don’t care, it doesn’t make much sense to send over their stars to get Ko’d and not be able to use them.
I doubt this will slow their willingness to share fighters.
If they were that worried about their fighters looking bad against another promotion’s fighters, then they would have never done the promotion v promotion event with Sengoku.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the death of Dream.
"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard
I’m surprised that this wouldn’t be a surprise.
by JConcerto on Feb 1, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Nah, dude. The death of their co-promotion maybe. What happens in U.S. Organizations means fuck all to Japanese promoters.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
I blog about stuff too.
Nate, what do you think any input at all?
Nate; Im not jumping on you, but you added little if anything to the artical, id like to know from the staff what it means, or their thoughts of how the SF/Dream alliance is going after its first steps.
by Beren on Feb 1, 2010 5:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don't have a very strong opinion about this issue
most of the time I just like to see what others are saying and aggregate their points and counters, then see what the readers here say.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
A separate world title?
“Co-promotion is a noble idea, but what’s good for fans isn’t necessarily good for business. And if it’s not good for business, that business might not last. If Strikeforce insists on these matches, the introduction of a separate world title might be in order.”
Isn’t that what WAMMA was trying to be? Im all for the idea by the way.
I dunno how anyone thinks Manhoef looks like he should be at WW.
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
by MonkeyCHops on Feb 1, 2010 6:26 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Little to no affect on DREAM....
BUT… I think Strikeforce came off looking bush league again.
The fights were ok, but the event in its entirety was hard to watch, even for some hardcore fans. Terrible pacing, too few fights for the allotted time, questionable stoppages, missing intros again, etc…
The WW title fight had two guys that casual fans haven’t heard of, while the best WW ever was sitting ring-side.
And whats next? Sakurai gets a title shot against Diaz!!! Seriously? 1. He has lost two straight fights and his last win was against a LW. 2. Casual fans dont know who the hell he is!
Im trying to give SF a chance, but I just cant get into it. Robbie Lawler and Jake Shields will be in the UFC soon, Ubereem has make a mockery of their “HW Title”, Lashley doesnt look like he’ll turn into the stud SF was hoping for, and they finally acquire the best fighter on the planet, but he cant get a title shot for around a year (Gegard and Zaromskis both got title shots in their first SF fight.)
Bringing stars from Japan over will do little for SF. No one watching Showtime knows who they are so only hardcores get excited about the co-promotion. And the Japanese fans dont care if their fighters lose over here. Hell, they’ll sellout Bob Sapp vs. a fucking cartoon, I dont think they’re culture is hung up on win/loss records.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Saturday night might have been horrible for Dream
but why wasn’t anyone saying the same thing about co-promotion when Dream MW Jacare tooled Matt Lindland on StrikeForce: Evolution?
Or when Dream fighter “Mayhem” Miller lost in a StrikeForce title match against Jake Shields?
Or when Dream fighter Gegard Mousasi came in and killed the StrikeForce champion, Babalu?
Or when Dream/StrikeForce fighter Gegard Mousasi beat Dream/StrikeForce fighter Sokoudjou on national TV, then when on to kill an opponent in a squash match in Tokyo while Sokoudjou was defeated that same night by another Dream fighter?
I guess what I am asking is what made Saturday so different?
by John Nash on Feb 1, 2010 6:32 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Yes he is.
Four fight contract, last I checked.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Feb 1, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Manhoef Lawler 2 is ready to go.
As far as Showtime goes, nobody even knows who Dream is. I’m all for Dream fighters coming over to the states. DREAM puts on killer shows. And I like Strikeforce as well. It’s entertainment people! I just wanna see people get beat up, and have skill doing it.
One thing Strikeforce has going for it
is that every hardcore fan watches their fights. We’ve been wanting Manhoef and Lawler for years. When they put Zaromskis in against Diaz instead of Heiron, these forums and others lit up in joy because we knew that ‘Skis had the potential to highlight reel someone that many of us don’t really like – for any number of reasons.
They may only get a few hundred thousand households on their Showtime events, but the fan base that really cares about the sport will have their eyes turned towards it.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
The one thing Strikeforce has going against it
is that the truly hardcore, watch all the MMA you can fanbase is really, really small and can’t possibly sustain their ambitions.
it can for showtime events
high 5-figure to low 6-figure viewership is just fine for now. The CBS cards are getting the huge fights with Fedor, Hendo, etc. Gotta build and this is a solid block. The other parts, such as the Fl. SAC not having enough doctors and people not being nice within the organization or whatever else is shit they should correct, but as far as eyes to the screen, this is pretty good for what really is their third or fourth big show since going bigtime.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Feb 1, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
If only Strikeforce was getting high 5 figure viewership on Showtime.
I was thinking they have only broke 500k in viewership one time and that was with Kimbo. Most other shows being around 300k to 350k. With the Challenger series shows being quite a bit less than that.
Just BE.
showtime only needs to sell about
10,000 extra subscriptions to mma fans to pay for strikeforce. at least that’s my understanding.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Can you elaborate on that just a little bit?
Can you fill in what I’m missing here. I can’t see how that math works out. I mean 10,000 at roughly $10 a month for Showtime is only $100,000 a month. So I’m not sure how that covers what they pay Strikeforce. Or have they already gotten thousands of subscriptions by MMA fans and they only need 10,000 more to be breaking even? I’m confused.
Just BE.
You Didn't See Carano vs Cyborg?
Despite the UFC counter-programming with a replay of their biggest event in history, Strikeforce managed to draw the highest rating ever for a MMA broadcast on Showtime with 576,000 average viewers. The previous mark was held by EliteXC for their Kimbo vs Tank show which drew 511,000 average viewers. Naturally, since Spike TV is in a little more than four times the number of households as Showtime the UFC 100 replay still outdrew them.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Feb 1, 2010 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
Coenen, Manhoef and Zaromskis losing by KO or TKO doesn’t bode well for these European fighters. Zaromskis has really bad defense, and Manhoef also leaves himself open a lot. Coenen did very well considering who her opponent was.
DREAM isn’t coming out of this badly at all. The fans of DREAM in the U.S. are still going to watch DREAM, and we will still want to see a crazy beatdown from Manhoef or a head kick KO from Zaromskis. The Japanese DREAM fans probably don’t care and will most likely still be fans of these fighters.
by chrisbboy82 on Feb 1, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is true that Lawlors come from behind victory seemed like one in a thousand. I can’t remember seeing someone get beaten that bad and then pull it out like that. Especially when the leg is complete mush.
Yeah, he was being beaten pretty badly by Radach, but was it really as bad as Lawlor/Melvin? I mean Scott was swinging the whole time and fighting, he was getting beaten, and definitely threw the hail mary to end it, but it just didn’t seem quite so quick and convincing as Lawlor. But I hadn’t seen it in a while though. And I watched him fight Cung on the internet, so I didn’t see it clearly, but it really didn’t look as close to as bad as Melvin and Lawlor.
Sorry, the below was suppose to be a reply to you.
I believe he meant the Smith/Sell fight.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
Sell had Smith almost finished from a shot to the liver; Smith was falling backwards against the cage in pain and as Sell stepped into finish, Smith exploded with one last punch and knocked Sell OUT COLD, then collapsed. It was pure madness.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Feb 2, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
People shouldn’t use the size comparison between Diaz and Zaromskis as a measure for whether Z should be at 170. He is still a pretty normal sized welterweight, and without the big reach disadvantage I’m pretty confident he could still do tons of damage at that weight class, in any promotion. Manhoef might be a bit on the small side for 185, but he is no welterweight, much like Akiyama or Kazuo Misaki.
I think there is some merit to the complaints about how these DREAM guys haven’t been fully introduced to the Strikeforce mass audience, but I viewed this event as a compromise. SF is just starting out as a major player, and they didn’t really have the time to build the contenders for this show, so bringing in the best from DREAM is a pretty damn good plan B if you ask me; much better than booking Lawler and Diaz in one-sided fights.
Both DREAM guys looked like they were a shot or two away from winning by KO in their fights. I’d say they represented their brand well, even in defeat.
disagree. UFC was the biggest loser for dropping Diaz – the man who beat zaromskis and basically decimated gomi.
and don’t say he’s not known for punching power, he KO’d Lawler, something Manhoef could not.
that was 4 years ago dude.
get over it.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 2, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
yes it does.
If 4 years from now barncat becomes a beast at MW, does it mean the UFC is the “biggest loser”? No it doesn’t. Barncat is a young guy with lots of potential, but he’s having trouble staying at 170, and needs some time to fill up and adjust to fighting at MW, so it makes more sense to let him go and make him develop first.
Diaz was a so-so LW, and then made some progress YEARS after when his body filled up and became more suited to fight at a heavier weightclass, doesn’t make it a bad decision for the UFC to let him walk at that time..
…and since you count 4 years as still a mistake, who knows, maybe the UFC would manage to sign him within a year or so, and then they’d be the “biggest winner” in all of this. haha
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 2, 2010 6:43 AM EST up reply actions
I sort of thought the same thing. It seems like Diaz holds off on a lot of his power until he’s really got his opponent backing onto his defensive. While the majority of his punches are jabs and short straight punches, there isn’t going to be a lot of power there, but to say he has no power is maybe kind of untrue.
None of this is at all surprising.
The day a couple UFC washouts can’t beat the best of the best from Japan is the day… You know what? Never mind. That day won’t come.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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