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Nevada Cleared Henderson and Duffee, Not Sonnen for Hormone Replacement Therapy

Todd Duffee, another tragic victim of hypogonadism? Thankfully he was able to get the medical help he needs. Photo by Tracy Lee via Combat Lifestyle.

Chael Sonnen's appeal hearing before the the California State Athletic Commission was a farce on many levels. Not only did the commission appear disorganized, under-informed and inconsistent, but Sonnen made a number of highly questionable claims. For one thing he claimed that he had informed Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer of his use of Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT). Kizer has denied that on multiple occasions, initially to Cage Side Seats

Dan Henderson recently told Bloody Elbow's own Luke Thomas (audio) that he had used TRT and been cleared by the NSAC. Now Dave Meltzer reports (subscription required) that former UFC heavyweight Todd Duffee had also been cleared by the NSAC for TRT:

In Nevada, it has only been approved for two fighters, Dan Henderson and Todd Duffee (before the Mike Russow fight on 5/29). The stories about Randy Couture linked to TRT in Nevada and having an exemption is an urban myth. Couture's name has been linked with it since 2007 when Joe Rogan, in an ESPN interview, when talking about Couture, made a mention of how with things like hormone replacement therapy, athletes are now able to compete at an older age than in the past. It should be noted that it is not believed Duffee's being let go by UFC after this loss had anything to do with this treatment. Henderson has been tested after all of his fights in Nevada and always fell beneath the 6-to-1 ratio. Duffee was blood tested leading to the Russow fight, but was not tested after the fight because he lost. Nevada usually tests winners and some losers at random, but not all losers are tested under the guise that if you lost, you didn't score an unfair win. Duffee was not in a title match or a main event where both fighters would automatically be tested. Only one fighter in California has ever been approved for testosterone replacement therapy, although the commission would not give his name.

Dr. Johnny Benjamin was very critical of Sonnen and his doctor:

Some common reasons for significantly low testosterone levels in an otherwise healthy young man are pituitary-gland issues, primary gonadal issues and/or side effects of anabolic steroid use. As an FYI, pituitary dysfunction was ruled out in Sonnen's case.

So, that leaves two likely choices with one being far more likely than the other.
...
...Sonnen was evaluated and treated by his local family practice doctor (Dr. Mark Czarnecki, D.O.) in Dallas*, Ore. After doing background research, I have no reason to believe that Dr. Czarnecki is not a fine, board-certified family-practice doctor of osteopathy. But a fellowship-trained expert in endocrinology he is not (and absolutely no disrespect is intended).

When Dr. Czarnecki was questioned during the hearing, he said that he was unaware of any drugs that could cause the condition for which he had diagnosed and was treating Sonnen. Sadly, by his own admission, this physician was unaware that testicular atrophy and subsequent low testosterone are common and widely known side effects of anabolic-steroid use.

This piece from S.C. Michaelson is a pretty essential primer on TRT in MMA for the uninitiated and how it can be abused by athletes looking to get around drug testing and still use PEDs.

More in the full entry.

Star-divide

The fans don't seem to care though. About 50% of respondents to this Sherdog online survey were either glad that Sonnen's suspension was reduced or were more concerned with the CSAC.

WWE commentator Jim Ross speaks for many fans:

Good to see that UFC star Chael Sonnen got his suspension cut in half. Heard the hearing was a joke. Between athletic commissions run by government appointees who are, at times, totally unqualified for their roles and the wacky judging of some MMA fights there is never a dull moment in the ever growing sport of MMA. Sonnen needs a solid fight and obviously a win to get back to the rematch phase with Anderson Silva in my opinion. In my opinion, Sonnen not having a fight prior to fighting Anderson Silva would be a strategic mistake.

Zach Arnold has some theories as to why the fans are siding with Sonnen:

What I found most interesting about the fan reaction to Koscheck is that it is largely the polar opposite to the fan reaction to Chael Sonnen these days. Judging by the amount of feedback I've gotten here, here, in e-mail, and offline, Sonnen is practically viewed as a hero for standing up to THE MAN on Thursday when he had his appeals meeting with the California State Athletic Commission board.
...
The disconnect between the fans, fighters, hanger-ons, etc. and the media covering this issue based on the facts is enormous. It's as wide of a gap as I can possibly recall on an MMA 'scandal' to this degree. I was struck by just how aggressive they were in their defense of Sonnen. I truly believe that they view Sonnen with admiration because he's got the nerve to do something that drug users in this sport don't have, which is come out and open up Pandora's box about what he did while proclaiming that it's above board and necessary. Who would have ever thought that a fighter's counsel would make an argument that he shouldn't be suspended because it would be a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act? You want to talk about bold!

There's plenty of fighters who are doping and testosterone replacement therapy is a growing practice. (Just look at pro-wrestling.) You damage your body by using anabolic steroids, you go see a (mark) doctor when your testosterone level is low, you get a prescription to use testosterone, and off you go. Because Chael Sonnen's defense has been so publicly blunt and aggressive, will his story give legitimacy to this kind of activity in the industry? Once the doors are open on this, who's to say we won't see an even bigger increase in doping that's not detected by drug testing?

The UFC has already signaled where they're at on Sonnen. Before the fight Dana White told Ariel Helwani, "there is more to this story" and now they're pushing Chael Sonnen and Wanderlei Silva as coaches for an upcoming season of The Ultimate Fighter.

Zach Arnold comments on how that might force a showdown with Keith Kizer and the NSAC:

 In perhaps the next step in what could end up being a bizarre proxy war, there seems to be a heat-up in a war of words between Chael Sonnen and Wanderlei Silva. How about that. These two have been rumored for over a month now to be the next coaches on The Ultimate Fighter. Sonnen coaching on a UFC program taped in Las Vegas where Keith Kizer has to show up for weigh-ins. The amount of messages that would be sent by the UFC for having Sonnen be a coach on The Ultimate Fighter would be enormous. It would be a total slap in the face to Kizer, given that Sonnen claimed that Kizer approved of him using Testosterone Replacement Therapy. Kizer completely denies this charge. Given this scenario, the idea of UFC using Sonnen as a coach and rewarding his behavior by putting him on national television week-after-week would speak volumes about the seriousness in which UFC looks at the issue of PED usage amongst fighters in MMA. It would all but eliminate UFC from publicly ever taking the high road on the matter, but of course the tradeoff would be significant short-term financial gains for a PPV match between Wanderlei and Sonnen.

* - Note from Mike Fagan: Dr. Mark Czarnecki's offices are in The Dalles, Oregon.

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Bla bla bla… who’s Sonnen fighting next, and when?!

Seriously, no disrespect intended, but am I the only who wishes that fine MMA blogs such as this fine would let commissions figure this stuff out while we stick to talking about fighters, you know, fighting?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

I think I would rather just hear the resolution of the case when it happens, and when he is fighting next. Constant coverage of anything gets a little old.

My Book in stores now!! http://www.amazon.com/Wormwood-Chase-Baker/dp/1453868313/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291677984&sr=8-1

by Wormwood on Dec 9, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Fine. I just don’t see the big deal with PED’s or whatever. I mean, we watch MMA mostly for the entertainment value, who cares if even most of them don’t play by the rules. As long as I’m entertained, that’s all that matters from my perspective.

I feel as though some MMA journalists take PEDs way too seriously, but that’s just my opinion, of course.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess this headline was misleading and now you’re mad as hell that you got tricked into reading the article?

by Rufford on Dec 9, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, it is silly to believe that CERTAIN fighters popping for PED

use in the UFC/MMA would permanently damage the growth of the sport towards Mainstream America. Look at baseball…Look at the NFL…Look at Professional Boxing…A lot of big names were busted…and a lot of big names were not caught…
Also, it would be safe to say that most of the governing bodies were looking the other way for all major sports.
Most fans know this, but a good majority are in denial.
The key question would be at what point/time period would using a PED to recover from an injury be considered illegal?
The fighters are given a good amount of time to get on and off of a PED wether it was to recoup for an injury or to get an unfair edge…

by cardiackids on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Hell Yeah

I still love my David Ortiz. Guy is the man even though he got popped.

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by DJ Pullout on Dec 9, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

use in the UFC/MMA would permanently damage the growth of the sport towards Mainstream America. Look at baseball…Look at the NFL…Look at Professional Boxing…A lot of big names were busted…and a lot of big names were not caught…

None of those are growing sports with tons of cultural currency in America

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 9, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Give them maces and swords!

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Great movie

I can totally hear Russel Crowe in my head screaming that out.

"We have all had to watch Brock Lesnar fart around. That guy is an embarrassment. God damn, you get to hand pick his opponents for him for a while then someone who is a half way decent athlete comes along and hits him once and he pisses his pants and runs. If he wasn't in a cage he would still be running."
-Don Frye

by dgonz on Dec 9, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep. I’m sure everyone sitting in the stands of the coliseums back then also claimed they worried about the safety of the gladiators/slaves… just like pretty much everyone in this thread…

And the forecast for today is hypocrisy. A lot of hypocrisy!

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m saying that people weren’t hypocrites back then… they enjoyed the fights for what they were without worrying about PEDs or the safety of gladiators; their job was to enjoy the show. We should do the same, IMO.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said. I agree! :-)

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

PED use and brain damage were both non-issues for guys dying in the arena. Comparing ancient world gladiators with modern world prize fighters is silly at best.

"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.

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by outlander78 on Dec 9, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

But…but…the UFC intro?!

To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.

by KGNLuc on Dec 9, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Thorw in an Acklay and it becomes epic?

Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!

I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye

by MrTechnique420 on Dec 9, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I do notz spel write.

Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!

I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye

by MrTechnique420 on Dec 9, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

We’re watching guys beat each other to a pulp and applaud KO’s and broken limbs… please, let’s not be hypocrites and say we care about the fighters’ safety. Please.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

That's insane

One of my biggest issues with PRIDE was the potential for injury with no drug testing/AC oversight. I’d like these guys to be able to talk to their grandkids when it’s all said and done, and that doesn’t make me a hypocrite.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

You should start advocating for bigger and better padded gloves then… they’d do less damage that way.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh god

You’re going to be hammered for this.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for admitting that you have no clue what you are talking about, should make the rest of the conversation easier.

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

You think there would be as many knockouts if everyone had pillows strapped to their hands?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Are there no knockouts in boxing?

You are arguing that to make things safer we should hit people in the head with heavier gloves, how exactly does that make sense?

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish there were some better studies on this. More cushioning reduces impact speed, which will offset the extra weight. There was a study showing how headgear can lessen the force of a punch(http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2006/pdfs/242.pdf), I would like to see something similar with gloves, I would imaged the more cushion gloves lower the power of a punch making up for the extra weight.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

headgear is not the same as gloves.

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, thats why I wish there were better studies, right now I can only assume based on what I have felt, being hit by boxing gloves vs MMA gloves , sparring with boxing gloves hurts less for sure. But “feel” is not a scientific way to evaluate something. It could just be that boxing gloves cause less superficial pain(stuff that would bruise,etc) but the real damage could be the same or worse.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you just summed it up there

Much like in football, I suspect there are far more concussions in boxing than in MMA. The standing 8-count and 10-count rules don’t help that either.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

What about all those times in MMA were a guy gets dropped, then pounded on brutally for the TKO or even worse brain damage-wise he manages to survive the round. The 8 count lets them have a chance of being able to defend themselfs with some intelligence. I am not advocated the 8 count, I just think people are ignoreing the dangers of mma or trying to downplay them compare to boxing. When we don’t really know. As I have said before the brawling style, far less punches block, attacks on the ground, etc may even out things with boxing dangerwise.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Let’s not forget the unnecessary blows that everyone applauds like Henderson on Bisping once he was already knocked out. But no… because Bisping was on the receiving end, that extra shot was perfectly fine.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, that was only one additional blow.

Boxers get knocked down just as badly, get back up and take WAY more punishment.

by Rob Young on Dec 9, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Why compare with boxing constantly? We’re talking about MMA here. If MMA/UFC was serious about the fighters’ safety, those extra blows like the one Henderson delivered to Bisping wouldn’t be applauded but reprimanded. But no, instead, everyone laughs at it like little school girls because they all hate Bisping.

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I guarantee everyone that Mohammed Ali and

Freddie Roach sparred/boxed with wore big padded gloves…

repeated hits, jarring the brain over and over again, are worse than one quick blow.

I doubt that a UFC fighter can generate the force of two NFL players(Harrison, Merriwether, etc.) running full speed into eachother and cracking Helmet to Helmet.
I am suprised that the NFL started upgrading their concussion test last year…" How many fingers am I holding up…"
I played football for over 10 years and had a good amount of concussions…wait, I forgot what my point was, but who cares!

by cardiackids on Dec 9, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I was talking of actual pillows, not boxing gloves.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

you're lying

use the action button to give a rec. jeez!

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Refresh, mang. You should know this.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I KNOW NOTHING!

NOTHING!

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

This place needs the ability to mark any comments past a certain time as unread.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Dec 9, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

that doesn't even touch the real arguments that

more padding actually increases long term brain damage because it allows more jarring blows to the head without causing unconsciousness, unlike 4 ounce gloves.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Why have gloves at all, then?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

To prevent cuts and guys hurting their hands on hard head/teeth/whatever.

by Rufford on Dec 9, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Too much hand damage and too much bad PR.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

did you miss the point where Nate said they protect hands

watch a bare knuckle fight and take note of their punching techniques. Much less power is thrown do to the risk of broken hands. which usually happen anyway. nevermind all the facial cuts bare knuckles can cause.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Because it's not fun

to watch guys punch each other once each and then resort to slap fighting.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Have you slapped with a broken hand?

I haven’t but I would imagine it hurts like a bitch. Fights would end up being elbowfests.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Dec 9, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

See Brown/Faber II.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I was debating whether or not to say that fighters would end up trying to fabertwo eachother.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Dec 9, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

someone has seen his share of

vale tudo

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

submission guys would own shit again! i would love it!

 public perception is the reason they wear gloves. It helps gets the legislation passed.
 Wrapping the hands prevents boxers fractures that’s about it as far as protection and thats for the wearer not the one getting punched.
Less cuts I bet too, more Concussions

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by the-gentle-way on Dec 9, 2010 12:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

but there is a tremendous difference in force imparted between no gloves and gloves…

it does more than just protect the hand.

by frosnt1 on Dec 9, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Gloves can break newton’s laws?

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Force can change because the of a decrease in acceleration at the initial point of impact because of the extra padding. The surface of the glove compresses until it can’t compress anymore, during those few milliseconds the acceleration is greatly decreased until the “real” impact happens. Again I would like some legit studies, not guess work based on myself getting hit with both.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

There are such studies from Thailand that have been linked here in the past. They showed that the extra-padding did nothing.

To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.

by KGNLuc on Dec 9, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting, do you have link?

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

the energy has to go somewhere. Unless the glove is big enough to actually slow down your fist (which is probably big enough that we are having a different discussion) more mass equals more force. It may feel like it hurts less because a bigger glove will hit you over a bigger area, meaning there is less pressure, but your head is still going to get hit harder, and that’s where the problem is.

The safety issue isn’t that it hurts when you get hit in the head, the issue is that your brain is bouncing around inside your skull, and padding isn’t going to help that.

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes that is what I am talking about, slowing down the fist. Anyway again where are the studies. I wish instead of bullcrap fight science and those other stupid shows that are in no way scientific, the money had been spent on legit tests. Same with head gear(though there is that one study I linked). Which again hurts less and feel like less of an impact but I need proof(again the one study is not enough as so many bad mouth head gear it makes me think twice).

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 10, 2010 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Again, you have studies that deal with headgear, which is an entirely different situation.

by Phildo on Dec 10, 2010 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you misunderstood me. I replyed before “I would like to see something similar with gloves” when discussing that headgear study . As for the above post, I want studies on gloves and headgear(more than the one). I brought up headgear in the first place because I lot of people bash headgear saying it does not work, people are doing the same for larger gloves sizes. I don’t know the truth of the matter, but the study on headgear at least show some legitimate counter evidence to this view. Perhaps it would be the same for gloves,perhaps not. I think it a fair point to make.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 10, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Potential for injury?

Steroids are amazing for recovering from injury.

by M.Sphinx on Dec 9, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Indeed.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

we care deeply about the fighters' safety

even if only for selfish reasons — if the sport’s not safe, eventually we wont’ get to see it anymore.
but also because we’re human beings and we care about other human beings. kind of an out of fashion viewpoint I know.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn’t all that ironic considering MMA is probalby the most violent sport there is? Whatever.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not more violent than football.

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Either is debatable.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

No it isn't

The average football player puts their body through much more violent impacts in training and in competition.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That doesn’t mean the sport is more violent. It means the injury-risk is as high or higher. But MMA is about intentional hurt imposed on another human being and about nothing else. So the statement does have merit.

To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.

by KGNLuc on Dec 9, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Football is the more violent sport

if you’re talking about the impacts players and fighters take

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would I do that? I enjoy watching the sport, who cares if I’m not on the same high horse as everyone else regarding safety? There’s plenty of other people to worry about that. Why would I need to do the same? Would me worrying about that improve anything? Doubtful. So what do I do? I simply enjoy watching the fights. That’s usually what sports fans do… they enjoy watching whatever sport they like and that’s it.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

football is far more violent and dangerous

boxing is more dangerous.
hockey is more violent and more dangerous.
competitive cheerleading is far more dangerous.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Competitive cheerleading is far more dangerous? I understand the point you’re trying to make but you’re seriously stretching here. Do you really think if MMA was as widely practiced by young people as competitive cheerleading that there wouldn’t be as many injuries?

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Dec 9, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

seriously

the actuarial tables on cheerleading are a nightmare. LOTS of broken necks.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that injuries happen and severe injuries at that – I’m just saying that if MMA were practiced at the junior high, high school and college levels en masse that the injury totals would be crazy high.

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Dec 9, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

This^

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

...Yes

If you mess up a double leg in training, there’s very little risk of a broken neck. Cheerleaders are literally throwing people around over hardwood floors, it’s incredibly dangerous

by Shaun32887 on Dec 9, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

This messed up double leg presents a pretty strong risk of a lot of injuries

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Dec 9, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If you become a cheerleader theres very little risk of someone else trying very hard to hurt you so you can’t continue cheer leading.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Shamk I more or less agree with you. MMA is a very dangerous sport, I would argue just as bad as boxing, do to the brawling style,lack of defense,blows to a grounded opponent you just got dropped,etc. Fighter safety? You put two guys in a cage and there job is to hurt the other guy to the point were he can’t go on fighting, its human cockfighting, EXCEPT they choose to do you. I can get overly sympathetic about fighter safety, they made a choice, its there lives to live. MMA is popular because it is violent, ground fighting gets booed,technical standing war gets booed, all out massive brain damage brawl gets cheered and gets fight of the night.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Can’t get…

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Good to know I’m not the only one saying it how it is… I hate people getting up on their high horse about stuff like this.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

You know, this might be the place where you’ll see that viewpoint echoed the least. Hardcore fans are often into the techniques. We are not the “Just bleed” crowd.

by Rufford on Dec 9, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

agree except that we're the only ones who even know

what “just bleed” even references lol

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

To be clear, I don’t need blood, broken limbs or anything else of the sort to enjoy fights… I enjoy technical fighting as much as anyone else (even though I have no first-hand experience with any of it). It’s not for nothing I’ve been voicing my opinion that I strongly disagree that SF had a better show than the UFC this past weekend.

All I’m saying is that I’m open about enjoying the fights without worrying about the ‘on the side’ stuff like PED’s and whatnot. I leave that job to the commissions. My job is to watch and enjoy MMA. And I love that job.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

So your contribution to this thread is all Pro Bono?

This is all highly relevant stuff for the sport.

(No Bono pics please.)

by Rufford on Dec 9, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

My original post was: less stuff that doesn’t matter (commission hearings, etc, etc.), and more stuff that does matter (there’s a big fight this weekend, I hear). Opinions can, and do, vary. That’s okay.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

And many posts later (on the subject you don’t care about) we are back where we started with some calls of hypocrisy.

by Rufford on Dec 9, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

...

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

This is very true, when ever I talk to any random person about MMA there not interested in having a discussion of the intricatces of Machidas style or the half guard sweep fighter x pulled off last night, no they just want to talk about the brawls, the big knockouts etc.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

If that Zombie Garcia fight was on the same night would it have? And of coarse you can find examples of fights were not that much brawling occurred won FOTH, that is not the point. My point is that is the preferred kind of fight in most fans minds. To be clear not my mind, I did not think the Garcia fight was FOTH, there with a guy called Mighty Mouse that was in a really awesome fight that night, don’t recall the details anymore just that I like the fight more.

I am free because I choose to be so-Me

by Kefka on Dec 9, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Great point. I always wondered what people saw in Zombie v Garcia. I’ve rewatched it a few times… it’s just 15 minutes of sloppy boxing. That Sanchez v Thiago fight was much better. Seeing Sanchez back like that was incredible.

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:16 AM EST up reply actions  

most fans care about the fighters

Not out of fashioned at all.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

old fashioned OR out of fashion*

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't sign off on this

I don’t want these guys seriously injured. Sonnen isn’t seriously injuring anyone though.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

"We have all had to watch Brock Lesnar fart around. That guy is an embarrassment. God damn, you get to hand pick his opponents for him for a while then someone who is a half way decent athlete comes along and hits him once and he pisses his pants and runs. If he wasn't in a cage he would still be running."
-Don Frye

by dgonz on Dec 9, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't know him,

but it’s pretty clear he’s only explaining his approach to viewing MMA, and with honesty I must say. NIce (and seemingly natural) of you to wield your fratty wit in an attempt to smear the guy. For the love of God, lighten up. How seriously do you take yourself and what you do, anyway?

by Charlie Custer on Dec 9, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for that.

Why is it that everyone feels the need to be the ambassadors of fairness and fighters’ safety when there are plenty of paid people that already to this. I’m no qualified to decide what’s fair, what’s against the rules, what’s safe, and neither are most of those MMA fans in blogs like this one. I know everyone likes to think they know everything, but we know all too well that’s never the case. And also, you never see NFL blogs concentrate on steroids or blows to the head like MMA blogs do. Why are MMA blogs so intent on covering stuff that ultimately doesn’t matter to the product we love watching? People, lighten up and just be fans of great fights.

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

...

Satoshi Kon
R.I.P.

by Grappo on Dec 9, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a great article written about TRT a couple days ago

that shows how people cheat the system and why TRT doesn’t work in the current system.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

I wonder what the commission will do....

when almost every fighter claims they have hormone deficiency issues and have been prescribed testosterone replacement. lol. I mean really….. you would be dumb to NOT do this if you can easily get approval. Time to legalize certain PEDs. for the love of god and move on.

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by DJ Pullout on Dec 9, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

The flip side is, here is an excellent way to weed out PED users.

"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.

"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee

by outlander78 on Dec 9, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, the NSAC is moving towards the WADA way of approval which means

you need an natural reason for the low T. Not past drug use.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
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Follow me on Twitter
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s great news.

"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.

"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee

by outlander78 on Dec 9, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I emailed Nate a pdf of the WADA criteria for issuing TUECs for TRT.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

link!

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

It was my article Nathaniel

SHAME!

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

that's why i wanted you to link it

If I’d found it earlier today when I was doing this story I’d have quoted it in the post.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a couple days old :(

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome

When you google “hypogonadism” it still shows the wiki description as "Known in Popular Culture as “Sonnen’s Disease” is a medical term…"

by nastyem on Dec 9, 2010 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

It’s suprises me that Duffee would need TRT. Ofcourse I have no clue of his medical records. Just weird to see someone that young needing TRT. I guess I always thought just older fighters might need it.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

I’m really, really glad I didn’t immediately bury Sonnen as so many others did when the results became public.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:20 PM EST reply actions  

Why? He cheated and was suspended for 6 months.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 9, 2010 12:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   2 recs

He medically needs it

and you have NO PROOF he does not. A bumbling commission has been a convenient scapegoat here.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

It is of course possible that he cheated, but if he did, he and his doctor should be charged with perjury for testifying what they did under oath.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

His doctor doesn't need to be complicit

Chael could’ve went with low testosterone levels via several ways

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

That is true

So long as the lab work and testing support his position, the doctor is fine. Then again, so is Chael in that circumstance, unless it could somehow be proven he faked the results.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If Chael had beaten Anderson he would have been stripped of the title shortly after. Still unclear about him cheating?

I don’t know why people are so confused about this.

Chael’s smoke show has been impressive but anyone with half a brain can see right through it.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 9, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Most knowledgeable, thinking people around here are clear on what happened.

He was not in compliance with the CSAC rules for approval of TRT, as has been discussed by many throughout this thread. This would, of course, have resulted in him being stripped of his title had he won.

Haven’t really seen much confusion on it, although I don’t think I’ve seen that particular “what if” scenario discussed.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Nope. Sorry.

Suspended for juicing.

We will just have to agree to disagree my friend.

Sorry about the whole sexual predator thing the other day, I was drinking Monsters.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 10, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

aint what the commission said

They didn’t have his levels at all.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

And seriously, enough already with this "They didn't know his levels" Shit.

All of you that keep saying this please cut the sh*t, you know damn well everyone is talking aboutt his test/epitest ratio being high.

Y’know, the evidence they used to suspend him, and keep him suspended?

Quit being the snot-nosed rugrat acting like you don’t know what people are talking about. It’s annoying enough in little kids, absolutely infuriating in “Adults.”

You know who you are, apologists. Enough already, the guy f*cking cheated and all the forms, paperwork, lawyers and doctors in the world couldnt change it.

We don’t need anymore smoke for the mirrors, there is plenty shooting out of Chael’s ass to begin with.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 9, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions  

You clearly haven't the first clue on the subject,

and no matter how many times you repeat the same ridiculous bullshit, and no matter how many childish insults you throw at people it doesn’t change the fact that you are flat wrong about this.

YOU DON’T GET SUSPENDED FOR HAVING A HIGH TESTOSTERONE TO EPITESTOSTERONE LEVEL – NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT – ALL IT DOES IS FLAG YOU FOR FOLLOW-UP TESTING.

If you would take the time to learn what the CSAC requires, and what they test for and why instead of repeating the same false drivel and insults, I think understanding would dawn on you.

I’ll try with some examples that SC Michaelson used (his and mine) to try to illustrate the point of WHY T/E ratios tell you nothing about someone’s actual testosterone levels:
Note: Testosterone levels in the normal range are 250 – 1100 ng/dl (varies slightly by lab).

—Fighter A (very low natural testosterone, with a legit need for TRT) – T/E ratio =12:1 (at time of test), total testosterone (at time of test, but not tested for) 900 ng/mL

—Fighter B (guy who wants to cheat) – T/E ratio = 8:1 (at time of test), total testosterone (at time of test, but not tested for) 8500 ng/ML

—Fighter C (using Test Cyp without legitimate medical need) – T/E ratio of 3.6:1 (at the time of test, but not tested for) 3600ng/dl. Not flagged for further follow-up testing.

Do you see the difference? Fighter A, who is legitimately on TRT has a normal actual level of testosterone, but a highly skewed T/E ratio BECAUSE HE IS ON TRT. Fighter C, who has no legitimate need (and has a higher natural level than Fighter A’s enhanced level) tests below the 4:1 cut-off and escapes further testing scrutiny DESPITE HAVING ACTAUL LEVELS 4X WHAT THE SUPPOSED “CHEAT” (FIGHTER A) HAS.

This is WHY T/E is completely meaningless for determining actual levels of testosterone – and why it is not used for that.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, man, calm down. I've read SC's article and your contribution to it.

YOU DON’T GET SUSPENDED FOR HAVING A HIGH TESTOSTERONE TO EPITESTOSTERONE LEVEL – NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT – ALL IT DOES IS FLAG YOU FOR FOLLOW-UP TESTING.”

Except that is exaclty what they suspended him for.

If what you say is true he would have been flagged, not “suspended”, yea?

He was not “flagged for follow up testing” he was suspended.

I’m quite, quite clear now, thanks to you, on the differences between actual levels, Pee-pee levels, blood levels, Test to epiTest ratio, and all that.

I’ve posted this before, for you, but here it is again: Why was Chael suspended according to Junkie, BE, Potato, anyone in MMA media?

(His testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio tested at 16.9, which well exceeded the CSAC’s 4.0 cutoff, according to recently released documents.)

Chael was immediately suspended for this. He was suspended in September, ok? Following me so far?

Not one word about TUEC, TRT, or any fucking thing was mentioned until last Thursday. Still following?

So how in the fuck are you going to sit there and say he was suspended for not filling a TUEC when that wasn’t even mentioned by Chael, his lawyer, his doctor, CSAC, ANYONE AT ALL until last week?

So, according to you, he was supsended in September for something that wasn’t even in exsistence until 3 months later?

I know you knowe alot about chemicals and stuff man, and I’ll defer to you on that.

But Chael was suspended for evidence of exogenous Testosterone in his pee.

The story he presented in his hearing fell flat on it’s weak ass face, so the suspension stands.

TUEC has nothing to do with it man. Get as mad as you want, throw out some more mg/500/dl/ng/juice talk if it makes you feel better.

It doesn’t change the fact Chael is suspended for juicing, and will serve out his time and pay his fine.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 10, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

His testosterone levels were not necessarily above normal

Neither we nor the commission has that information as it can only come from blood testing.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

the urine test

only reveals ratios. a blood test would be required to really gauge his T levels.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I can’t find a URL for this, so I am going to email you a pdf I have of WADA’s protocol for approving TRT.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Two points

1) I didn’t see much proof that he does need it
2) Tough shit if he does need it. Find another occupation.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 9, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

1) You’re not a doctor
2) See 1.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

This just in

You need to be a doctor to see things. Film at 11.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 9, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No

I’m saying if a guy needs steroids to fight, he shouldn’t fight. And if he doesn’t file paperwork properly, he shouldn’t fight. And I’m also saying that based on his history, he’s probably lying.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 9, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

So Henderson and Duffee should also retire?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

And what about all the illnesses that can be cured by steroids? Anybody cured by steroids also can’t participate in MMA? (I’m not proclaiming to know what’s cured by steroids, but I know it’s often used by House MD’s team of doctors as a treatment! haha)

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Whole different class of steroids

on House.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing can be "cured" by steroids

Plenty can be treated. Doesn’t change the fact that in order to use those treatments to still compete in MMA you need to have the therapeutic use exemption, and need to go through the process of getting that cleared by the commission. Sonnen didn’t do that, it should have been the end of story right there and the suspension shouldn’t have been reduced. The Commission members wanted to wrap the meeting up and go home, and a few of them remained confused over the mountain of crap that had been presented to them when they made a snap decision to reduce the suspension.

by Jamie Penick on Dec 9, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

except for the fact he DID do that once

In California. Details, details.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

So he claimed

He didn’t provide any proof that he had it approved outside of saying he had “gotten a phone call.” The emails he said he had were from the UFC doctor, that was all out in the hearing. The commission had no documentation, and he didn’t provide anything from the CSAC that proved he had gotten approval.

by Jamie Penick on Dec 9, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Allegedly

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

BAZOINGA

Totally agree here.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

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by Neil Manich on Dec 9, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree as well

I can’t believe people are giving Sonnen a pass because he has a “note from his doctor’” when:
a) He never told the commission
b) his reasons for needing it are suspect
c) his doctor’s diagnosis seems suspect

by John Nash on Dec 9, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

In a way, I’m with Farthammer here. If a guy needs some kind of “unnatural” assistance or treatment to help him compete, maybe he needs to find a new career.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

What about people with A.D.D. and dyslexia? Should they just do hard labor because they need "unnatural" assistance?

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Apples and oranges, in my opinion.

There’s a difference between needing “unnatural” assistance (I can’t think of a better way to phrase it) to perform a “normal” job and needing it to compete directly against someone else.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

You compete against people for jobs and promotions. The only difference is that one you get hurt in and the other you lose money. I just think it’s a slippery slop when you start denying people things that are currently legal and say they should find another job.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed that it’s a slippery slope, but it’s all about context. Not all jobs equal and don’t have the same qualifications.

The fact is, he’s using something that has the potential to give him an unfair competitive advantage in a job where the whole point is direct competition with others.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The point of TRT isn’t to give an advantage; its purpose is to level the playing field for people who can’t produce test normally.

Sonnen’s levels were supposedly over that average. That’s cheating and is an unfair advantage, but the story states that Dan Henderson was in-between the averages so I don’t know if I see anything wrong with that. It’s a known fact that males produce lower levels at later stages of their life.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I know the point of TRT isn’t to give an advantage, but it’s possible to do so through TRT.

In the end, it comes down to a matter of use vs. abuse. I don’t have a problem with TRT being used to bring a fighter’s testosterone levels to within the average range, but it’s the fact that TRT can be used to artificially inflate a fighter’s testosterone levels above the norm with little risk of being caught (at least from my understanding SC Michaelson’s article – I admit that I’m no expert on the subject).

I would even argue that having low testosterone by nature is just a God-given disadvantage. If you’re four feet tall, you probably won’t have a career in the NBA. Would you let him wear stilts if he wanted to play?

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Stilts would be considered equipment. But I’m in the same boat on not being an expert on TRT.

Any comment on this debate S.C.?

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, the stilt thing was a bit of a stretch. How about the double-amputee sprinters trying to make it into the Olympics with their J-blade prosthetic legs? It’s a close enough analog for this situation.

And also, regarding your statement, “It’s a known fact that males produce lower levels at later stages of their life.” That’s also why you see a lot of pro athletes retiring as they reach the later stages of their life. How many guys in the NFL continue to play past age 40? Without the “unnatural” assistance of TRT, they can’t keep up with the younger guys. It’s a part of aging. At which point do you draw the line between a contest of who’s the most skilled or best conditioned and who’s got the best doctors and medical treatment? I don’t have an answer, I’m just posing a question.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

At which point do you draw the line between a contest of who’s the most skilled or best conditioned and who’s got the best doctors and medical treatment?

When it gets to the point where people are getting more test than someone without the treatments.

I think the best thing would be for the commission to have a licensed doctor administer the shots himself and keep up with the levels through samples. It won’t happen because of expenses.

Eh J-blade prosthetic legs still seems like equipment to me. The NBA recently told everyone they can’t buy a certain shoe because it gives an advantage.

Maybe a better analog would be "should someone get cocaine because they have low aggression. J/k

I think the reason you don’t see more athletes in their 40’s in football is because of the number of people applying for the job. If MMA saw an influx of youthful talent that has been trained since childhood we’d see less 40 something’s in the UFC.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

we don't know what Sonnen's actual T level was

just his T/E ratio. Takes a blood test to determine actual T level.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks Nate.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s what I’m getting at. It takes a blood test to determine the actual level. According to SC, none of the commissions actually run blood tests so there’s no method in place right now to keep fighters from abusing TRT. Your idea of having commission-approved doctors works, but as you said it’s cost-prohibitive. So again, how can you allow this kind of treatment knowing the potential and ease of abuse?

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

People cheat. They always will. Right now a fighter can take HGH their entire training camp. Without a blood test HGH goes unnoticed. ESPN the magizine quoted an unnamed player in the league that guessed 40% or moreof the players in the NFL take HGH. Low T is atleast a medical condition.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

True, but just because people cheat doesn’t mean you should make it any easier for them to continue to do so.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You can’t say it like that, there has to be a line somewhere. Are contacts or LASIK natural? taking a ligament from an animal and putting it in place of a broken one in your body?

I’m not saying I 100% think people should be able to get away with doctor’s notes for everything, but you can’t say “no ‘unnatural’ assistance” because then we would have no one to watch we can debate where the line can be, but you can’t just say “all natural only.”

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that there needs to be a line. But until the testing methods and policies catch up to the point where you can ensure that fighters are only using TRT legitimately, I don’t see much justification for allowing it.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Dec 9, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Sonnen is making the positive claim

the onus is on HIM to prove he needs it.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

and he brought his physician there to the hearing as his proof. Are you going to say you know more on the subject than his physician?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you read the article you’re busy bitching about? It’s pretty clear his own doctor doesn’t know much about the condition. This same doctor didn’t bring the documentation needed that could actually be used as evidence for his claim.

Yes, bringing your oddball doctor is evidence but it’s a mile away from conclusive.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know… I’ll take the word of an oddball licensed doctor insted of the word of a bunch of MMA fans who don’t like Sonnen for whatever reason.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not about disliking Sonnen

it’s about him needing to actually provide evidence for his claim.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

And he did. Which is why his suspension was cut in half. The commission only kept the 6 month suspension because they found that Sonnen didn’t disclose his condition properly.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

No

His suspension was cut in half because the commission wanted to get the hell out of that meeting as quickly as possible.

by Jamie Penick on Dec 9, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

No he didn't

which is why he is still suspended. Did you watch the feed? It doesn’t sound like you did, at all. There was no conclusive evidence given at all. The CSAS cuts anyone a 1/2 suspension if they come in and bitch.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I did start watching it as soon as Sonnen’s turn was up because I was curious to know when he might be fighting next.

In the last 5 minutes, they basically agreed that the problem was one of disclosure, and that since they recognized that there were some problems/inconsistencies regarding their own procedures on how to disclose a condition, they decided to somewhat give Sonnen the benefit of the doubt and cut it in half. Didn’t you get the same thing when you watched it?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not at all

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

So what’s your interpretation then?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

mine is

Everyone with a lawyer that denies it gets their sentence reduced. Sean Sherk, James Toney… the list goes on.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 9, 2010 1:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Funny, that’s not what they said in their closing arguments just before voting…

And besides, a quick google search of “CSAC upholding suspension” shows that many fighters weren’t able to get their suspension reduced by CSAC… the first two listed being Kazuhiro Nakaruma (UFC 76) and Antonio Silva back in 2008. So it’s not like it’s automatic.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea because the CSAC is going to say, “Shit, he had a lawyer! Guess we cut it in half”. It’s an SOP for them.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like I wasn’t the only one with my interpratation. Go back and read this article, especially the quote from MDS…

But rules are rules, and the members of the Commission, despite seeming at times like they didn’t know what their own rules were, appeared to be in general agreement that Sonnen had violated their rules by failing to properly disclose he was taking testosterone.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That was one of the rules he violated, yes

but that certainly wasn’t the sole reason for them upholding his suspension.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I really think that’s all they could hold against him. My understanding was they had no clue how to argue against his TRT treatments, they then said fine, we’ll concentrate on the disclosure argument.

Btw, do you know where I can find the transcript for the hearing? I’d like to read the last 5-10 minutes of the hearing to confirm what I first understood.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

it's hilarious that you've spent 2 hours

debating on a post you originally deemed a waste of time. I smell shill.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Never said it was a waste of time. I said I preferred talking about fights than this BS.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

This is true

If what he and his doctor testified to is correct, he would likely receive a TUEC for TRT. If they were lying, they should be charged with perjury.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

You're free of your debt to me

Unless you just like carrying that sig around…

Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Dec 9, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

the thing is tony...

I am always mobile so I don’t really see it. I will change it when I think about when I am at home.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 9, 2010 1:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It appears now that he had the same type of treatment, supervised by a doctor, that other fighters have with no issue. At the very least, it’s an inconsistently enforced rule.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably because other guys actually followed proper protocol. Derek if he did nothing wrong why is he suspended for 6 months?

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 9, 2010 12:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

cheating and not disclosing

are not the same. Nevermind the fact he already disclosed and had his treatment approved in California once, and other times as well for that matter.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Did I say he did nothing wrong?

If using HRT by itself is wrong, why aren’t Duffee and Hendo similarly suspended?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Using TRT is not wrong (technically)

Using TRT while not under the supervision of the athletic commission and subject to their blood tests is wrong and cheating.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Since when? There was no word of any of that during the hearing. They never once said he shouldn’t have been under TRT, did they?

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

You have to

receive a TUEC (therapeutic use exemption certificate) from the AC for it to be “approved” regardless of medical need.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

FFS

Yes they did. That was the whole point of the thing, you shouldn’t be under TRT unless you have been given a TUE.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 9, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I try to not get involved in arguments about PEDs on BE

But don’t you see an issue arising where using PEDs is OK while under the supervision of an inept commission, whereas it ISN’T ok to use them under the supervision of medical professionals? Isn’t it the same substance? It doesn’t make sense.

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Dec 9, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Not the commission

the DOCTORS of the commission’s choosing. While being tested regularly.

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Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

His suspension wasn’t maintained and reduced to 6 months because used PED’s… it was maintained and reduced because he didn’t disclose his condition properly. There’s a distinction to be made there, I think.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

One would think. It’s obvious that merely receiving HRT doesn’t automatically make you ineligible.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 9, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

You can’t really find a higher horse than you are already on.

Besides, Sonnen deserves every bit of shit he gets. He is a liar (fact), and a cheater (fact).

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 9, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

People jump to conclusion

Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!

I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye

by MrTechnique420 on Dec 9, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm starting to believe that Sonnen is borderline....

Sociopath: …..deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;………lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another….

if the shoe fits…

by phantom5691 on Dec 9, 2010 12:20 PM EST reply actions  

so what sport isnt’ a joke?

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

meh, i had 4 fun days at giants stadium.

by Phildo on Dec 9, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

me too dude

"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"

by DamnSevern on Dec 9, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

SLAMBALL!

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Dec 9, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

For TRT to be used in MMA, some safeguards need to be put in place to prevent abuse

As a condition of granting TUECs, the AC’s should require the athletes to have blood testing of total testosterone levels done year around at regular intervals (preferably no more than 2 weeks apart, absolutely no more than 4) at a lab approved by the athletic commission, and the fighter’s expense of course. If they balk at paying, they don’t get the exemption.

Yes, there are methods for skewing the results on the tests, which are workable if one is only tested 1-4 times a year, but those same methods would interfere with a fighter’s training if they had to use them every 1-4 weeks.

Another possibility is using a commission approved doctor’s office to both draw blood for this testing and provide the injections, rather than allowing self injection.

I completely think TRT should be allowed in legitimate cases, but it is subject to considerable abuse without out-of-competition testing.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

Dave Meltzer already said that Kizer and co will put Chael through the wringer when he has to renew his license next year.

by Lynchman on Dec 9, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah I don't buy that

NSAC is a proxy for the UFC. Dana White wouldn’t be happy about that. And if the supposed showdown over Sonnen does take place, White will just hold the fight in Canada or somewhere else.

And I don’t know that Kizer isn’t the one lying here either. And neither do you.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Doubt it

I don’t think Dana will ever give the ACs the finger by giving a suspended fighter international work.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

He isn't suspended in Nevada

This is about getting his license renewed. If Kizer is going to ,make an issue, he’ll just take his fighter else where.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

At which point

The commissions will put the squeeze on him.

Chael Sonnen is not worth so much to the UFC that they will endanger a healthy working relationship in their home state.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan

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by Worldisart on Dec 9, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Nevada will cave

The UFC always gets it’s way. Probably why Kizer brushed it under the rug in the first place

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The amount of conclusions being drawn here is stunning.

Particularly when so few seem to genuinely understand the pathophysiology of hypogonadism.

Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan

by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 9, 2010 12:42 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

be sure and enlighten us

I’m sure many of your competitive bodybuilding customers are tragic victims as well.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 9, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I have competitive bodybuilding customers?

Please, be sure and enlighten me.

Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan

by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 9, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Bodybuilding is probably the single worst sport for extreme abuse of PEDs

Crazy stacks like Test-Cyp in doses 10x – 30x+ the TRT doses + massive doses of various combinations of deca, d-bol, testaviron, Equipose, Finajet, maybe Winstrol at the end to lean up a bit.

In addition, heavy doses of hGH and insulin, among others.

Powerlifting is second only to bodybuilding IMO for degree of abuse.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely.

Don’t think that was the point of Nate’s comment, though.

Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan

by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

I just figured he knew you personally. Or of you.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s what I am trying to drive at myself.

Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan

by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 9, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

indeed.

"Live fast, die." ~ GG Allin

by Bonedoctor on Dec 9, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Please don't

It seems like I’m the only one not wanting this Chael vs Wanderlei TUF. I don’t really care about Wanderlei but he’s a good guy, on the other side, there’s nobody else in the UFC that I hate more the Chael and not in the “I hate him so I’ll check the show to see him get owned” kinda way but more in the “whatever this guy’s in I’m not watching” kinda way.

by Maesterz on Dec 9, 2010 12:49 PM EST reply actions  

Watch Bigger faster stronger

then you understand how easy it is to get prescriptions for HGH’s or testosterone

by Mohammedini Hussein on Dec 9, 2010 12:59 PM EST reply actions  

This is true,

but it only mandates stringent testing, rather than a blanket denial of HRT/TRT modalities altogether.

First and foremost, the UFC should independently administer blood and urine testing in a year round fashion, which would prevent ‘blasting’ prior to a fight and then ‘cruising’ just prior to reduce the T:E and total T ratios.

Secondly, the cause of the hypogonadism needs to be properly assessed, as naturopathic remedies can be sought prior to full-on hormone replacement therapy. This means entire endocrine panels, including FSH, LH, Total T, bioavailable T, estradiol, PRG, etc. This allows the UFC to determine whether the hypogonadism is primary (at the pituitary) or secondary (at the testes, deficiency in blood globulins, etc.)

Third, the treatments would need to be more extensively covered by the UFC.

Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan

by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Can someone explain how Duffee maintained such a massive physique

If he had low testosterone levels? And how it’s safe for a 24 year old to have Hormone Replacement Therapy. I’d never say someone is on steroids because of the way they look but I know for damn sure it’s impossible to have that kind of muscle mass with low testosterone levels.

Follow me on twitter @thisredengine

Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com

by Matthew Roth on Dec 9, 2010 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

I cannot

I can’t explain the physique and the need for TRT without calling either previous steroid usage or abuse of TRT, far beyond prescribed levels.

And without regular blood testing it is absolutely possible to cheat using doses far beyond those prescribed for TRT, and yes, it is possible (although not easy or easily repeatable on a regular basis) to artificially reduce levels for the (usually 2) upfront testing needed to start TRT.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

When I think Duffee

I think low T.

In all seriousness, if Duffee has a real medical need for TRT at age 24, he was juicing for years or at least months on end.

by TheFilt on Dec 9, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a doctor

But I have eyes and commons sense. And both of those tell me this dude doesn’t need TRT. Is it cheaper than Steroid cycles? I’m not saying he is or ever was on steroids, I’m just asking what the price difference is.

Follow me on twitter @thisredengine

Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com

by Matthew Roth on Dec 9, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Testosterone Cypionate

Is about $100 retail for a 2000mg vial (10 mls). The advantage of course, under current rules, is that he could take 10x the prescribed amount (assuming he could get the real stuff) and stop 4 weeks out and probably not test outside the allowable parameters, depending on how low his natural levels were. Or start hCG coming off to “restart” natural production enough to get the T/E ratio in allowable ranges.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting point about lowering levels

I have a naturally high T level. Muscles, low brow ridge, anger, low body fat, back acne, fertility issues etc.

I’ve been told by a doctor that raising my levels is much easier and less complicated than lowering them. Double edge sword. I grow and recover fast, but my temper and energy levels are unhealthy.

by TheFilt on Dec 9, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

If you use steroids, it's kind of easy to lower levels

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately

I don’t. So I kinda just have to deal with the benefits and risks.

Most guys with high T levels die young, are injured more and have trouble with jobs and relationships.

by TheFilt on Dec 9, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not aware of any medical treatment to decrease it, and the things I am talking about are more about “gaming” the system, but my ignorance on that aspect doesn’t mean much. Fortunately, even if the age of google, the “tricks” used are not easily found, at least not without extensive pursuit & understanding of endocrinology journals.

SC is right of course in that levels drop drastically coming off a long term cycle, but they would be through the roof while doing it.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, my doctor said the same thing. Only a really good endocrinologist could help with it. I just gotta stay away from

Its strange that so many people are trying raise T levels without any understanding of what it can do to your mind and body. If you’re not already an alpha type of dude, testosterone will really change your personality. The really funny part is that most T boosters don’t do anything at all. You gotta get the real stuff, or something close to it.

I don’t know what SC was getting at. I know Duffee’s a juice head. I was talking about my own personal situation dealing with something most men think of as a blessing. You spend time around a lot of alpha males, so you know, its not always pretty. Especially later in life.

by TheFilt on Dec 9, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Its a mixed blessing at best. Maybe SC was sarcastically alluding to the fact that if you juice long term your production post-juice is super low?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Love JR

But why am I not surprised he doesn’t exactly frown upon elevated testosterone levels? Oh right, they made him rich.

Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Dec 9, 2010 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

You just made Good ole' JR look like a bad guy.

I think he’s just desensitized to the subject.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah I didn't

just wasn’t surprised this was a total non-issue to him

Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Dec 9, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

You’ll be surprised come Dec. 27th my friend. A dirty bird can’t fly with a broken wing.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

All I'm saying...

…is don’t ever leave the score close and the ball in Matt Ryan’s hands.

Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Dec 9, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Noted. Also, don’t leave the score close and the ball in our kickers leg.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The ball is in his leg?

That’s no way to win games!

Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Dec 9, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Trick play

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

We had to teach him a lesson. Don’t miss field goals in overtime!

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

People, people, people....

You’re all missing the most important thing in this article…..

Logan <3

by rexthedog on Dec 9, 2010 1:37 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

wow.

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Dec 9, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Must.....not..

Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!

I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye

by MrTechnique420 on Dec 9, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Where is the ass?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

uwqfiouewqhfjo2hedojqehd

icb

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

rec'd

Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Dec 9, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately this is true

But it is obvious the UFC knows more than they’re letting on. Dana from the beginning seemed to have an acute understanding of Sonnen’s defense, and Sonnen claimed the UFC doctor had also known since 2008. The UFC has known for two years. Dana White has known the whole time. There is no way he could not have known. This adds credibility to the idea that the UFC were behind the NSAC brushing this under the rug, as Sonnen referenced in his conversation with Kizer.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would they brush his case

and not Hendo’s and Duffee’s?

That makes no sense.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

This, I believe

He’s gaming the system, big time, and I don’t think he’s the only one.

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin

by Snatchl on Dec 9, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

What's the most bizarre aspect to me is

that had he not taken a shot within 3-4 weeks of the fight, if he is really on TRT, he wouldn’t have exceeded the 4:1 T/E ratio and would have never been flagged for further testing.

Then again, if he really thought he was clear, there would be no reason not to keep using as prescribed up until fight time.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

This is what I was thinking the entire time I was reading those quotes.

I personally can’t see any one reason to like this guy or cheer him on. I can admit I was cheering for him in the second Fihlo fight. But that was mostly because I didn’t know him and he went on a tantrum of how he told his dying father in the hospital that he would win this world championship, only to have Fihlo not make weight and turn the scrap into a 3 round fight, thus making it impossible to stick to the word he gave to his father.
Now after he has shown that he has no problem telling the world a bold faced lye I wonder if his father is even actually dead or whether he even promised him to be a WEC champ.

Luke Thomas: If Pro Wrestling had a dick, you'd be the balls!
Kid Nate: ...

by TorQus on Dec 9, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I personally can’t see any one reason to like this guy or cheer him on.

If you like MMA, you want to see Sonnen beat Anderson Silva once more to see if he can complete what he started at UFC 117 or if Silva figure a way to end it much sooner. Any MMA fan should be wishing to see that happen as soon as possible.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say a word about not wanting to see him fight.

I said I don’t see any reason (personally) why people can cheer the guy on. But thanks for the insight and amazing reading comprehension.

Luke Thomas: If Pro Wrestling had a dick, you'd be the balls!
Kid Nate: ...

by TorQus on Dec 9, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I admit, I didn’t read your post entirely before I replied. That explains why my reply to you doesn’t exactly make sense. Looking back at my reply, it suits truck’s post more than yours.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

great, another one of you guys

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Dec 9, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I like MMA

And I have absolutley no desire to see Anderson defeat Chael again.

There is limited time left in his career, why the f*ck would anyone want a fight wasted on a scrub that couldn’t finish from his best position and got tapped by the same move he always does?

Anderson wouldn’t be coming out wearing a Gi and be so eager to fall on his back into Chael’s “control” for 25 minutes either.

If you want to see Chael hospitalized, on the other hand, well hey let’s make it happen.

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 9, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ya if I were an Anderson Silva fan

I wouldn’t wanna see him fight Chael again either.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

"Scrub"?

A guy en route to a 50-44 decision win over Anderson Silva is a “scrub”?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

No kidding. I would much rather see Sonnen beat Silva and then see a fully motivated Silva come back in the rubber match to destroy Sonnen. THAT would be great!

Sonnen is the best thing to happen to Silva’s career in the last 3 years… finally someone who can bring it to Silva!

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Why do you hate MMA so much that you wish that one of the very few guys who can give a competitive fight to Anderson Silva is forced out of competition for a full year when he doesn’t have that many prime years left? As a MMA fan, I’m ecstatic that we’ll see Sonnen sooner rather than later.

by Shnak on Dec 9, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

As a fan of fair sporting competition, I believe that people who attempt to cheat the system in order to gain an unfair advantage (no matter how small it is perceived to be) should be punished.

Sport over spectacle.

by Pyrgz Krum on Dec 9, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Sonnen didn’t attempt to cheat the system, he screwed up filing some forms. Slight difference, don’t you think?

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I imagine a bengal tiger could give Anderson a pretty good fight also.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

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by Neil Manich on Dec 9, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

"I had to beat them to def wif their own shooes."

"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."

by Shotokanman on Dec 9, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, tell me you wouldn’t pay $50 to see that fight…

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:24 AM EST up reply actions  

hahaha

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 9, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see how a vicious muderer of two people

is the same as a guy who didn’t follow protocol when dealing with a medicine his dr prescribed.

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

OJ didn't murder, he was found not guilty

Sonnen is more guilty than OJ.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Sonnen was also found not guilty

didn’t you see his inside MMA interview? ;)

Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com

by Urijah Bieber on Dec 9, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

OJ’s in jail.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 9, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point. And while OJ’s in jail, Sonnen’s not. Who’s more guilty, again, S.C.?

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 7:26 AM EST up reply actions  

EXCEPT

OJ’s not in jail for murder, but for a totally unrelated crime.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 10, 2010 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, they’re kind of related as they were committed by the same crazy person! :p

by Shnak on Dec 10, 2010 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

It seems

that people are siding with Sonnen as a way to get back at the problems with ACs, even though this doesnt seem to be the case here.
 
Now I have expressed unhappiness with ACs in the past, but Sonnen getting his suspension reduced because his lawyer put on a show, is ridiculous.

And anyone else wondering why Duffee is approved for this? Hendo I can at least mark up to old age, lol.

by BJJDenver on Dec 9, 2010 2:35 PM EST reply actions  

What I took from this

It is incredibly easy to legally use performance enhancers and get away with it. Sonnen just fucked up. The systems broken.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Dec 9, 2010 2:42 PM EST reply actions  

WIth all the press this loophole/out might not work as well. I’m sure there will be plenty others along with the usual cycling.

by Rufford on Dec 9, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

It always has been

without out of competition testing. Had Sonnen stopped 3-4 weeks before, this would have never come up.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m sure this has already been touched on somewhere in the 200+ comments, but there are other causes of low testosterone production. Namely, it is very likely that weight cutting at a young age (typically from middle and high school wrestlers) can cause abnormal testosterone production later in life. The (somewhat obvious) reason for this is that a person’s body is still developing at a young age and when you start playing games with body weight and things of that nature, it can throw the body off of it’s regular plan.

A simple Google search found a message board discussion amongst former amateur wrestlers talking about it. Click here to check it out.

This is not to say that Sonnen’s problem cannot be related to steroid use. I have no idea whether the guy ever abused anabolic steroids, and frankly, I don’t care that much. My point is that there are other causes to this problem. Just because Dr. Benjamin’s piece seems to imply that Sonnen likely juiced doesn’t mean he did. There’s no denying Benjamin’s legitimate medical credentials, but more often than not the guy seems to combine medical facts with his own subjective opinion in an editorial fashion.

by dropkick101 on Dec 9, 2010 3:05 PM EST reply actions  

No NO

No science behind that. There has not been ONE study done.

Now, extreme dieting (fasting) and dehydration can cause TEMPORARY reduction in testosterone production, but nothing permanent. So can a lot of things…like stress.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 9, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, the fact that I couldn’t find any legit studies done about it did cause me to re-evaluate the situation for a minute. But, at the same time, that means there have been no studies to prove that it has no effect. Frankly, I just can’t see how cutting weight, especially when it’s a significant amount, can’t have a long term effect in some instances.

Again, I’m not a doctor, so I’m talking out of my ass and basing my idea on what I’ve heard others say and on my idea of common sense, but it seems similar to a mother ingesting hazardous toxins like alcohol or drugs during pregnancy. The child is going through serious development and anything that interferes with that process can have negative effects. For a young kid going through puberty and having all different hormones running through his body, playing games with one’s body can’t be good.

It’s established science that this is not the safest thing for young people, but nowhere has it been proven that it has a long term effect on testosterone production. I’d definitely like to see somebody perform a study on it.

by dropkick101 on Dec 9, 2010 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no reason to think weight cutting would cause that, thus no studies on the topic.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 9, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn the gloves came off in heeee-ya.

by DirtyML on Dec 9, 2010 4:52 PM EST reply actions  

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