Koscheck Embraces His Inner Heel Against St. Pierre at UFC 124
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 7, 2010 3:12 PM EST
in UFC Analysis
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Josh Koscheck has never been popular with UFC fans. Not in 2005 when he was one of the original cast members of The Ultimate Fighter and stood out as a stereotypical bullying jock. Not in 2009 when he repeatedly claimed to have been the victim of eye pokes that were suspiciously hard to see on the televised replays. Certainly not in 2010 when he starred opposite welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre as a coach of The Ultimate Fighter 12.
It's not accident. In fact Koscheck tells E. Spencer Kyte that it's a deliberate strategy:
"I've done very well with my personality and being the so-called bad boy," admits the American Kickboxing Academy product. "It's part of the entertainment factor; you have to have some value. If you don't have any value, you can't sell tickets, and you can't put butts in seats. If you can't do that, you're useless."
...
"You either have to have a character or just be a plain bad-ass fighter, but sometimes being a bad-ass fighter isn't enough," Koscheck offers earnestly. "If you look at the WWE, they've done it for years -- building characters and storylines -- and I think that's a big part of our sport.
...
"People always seem to want to watch a Josh Koscheck fight," says the challenger, who will bring a 15-4 record into the rematch. "They want to see me either get my ass kicked or they want to see me win. Either way, I don't really care what people's opinions are of me. I'm not here to make friends; I'm here to make money and win championships, and that is the opportunity I have Saturday night."
Zach Arnold, a student of pro wrestling crowd manipulation, asks the question, how exactly did Koscheck become so hated?
It's not as simple as saying that he acts like the little snot-nosed brother you never had because that shtick wouldn't draw the fan reaction he's getting now. Certainly, a heavy element of the heat is based on the purely emotional attachment that the fans have to St. Pierre who in the eyes of many can do no wrong. However, that wouldn't equate the level of hatred and venom that Mr. Koscheck is attracting at this moment.
So, what is it? What is it about Koscheck that makes him hated to the degree that he currently is in the eyes of the fans? He hasn't gotten into a stupid trash talking affair like Rashad Evans did with Rampage Jackson in which some of the dumbest comments about race were ever made. He doesn't have a penis-looking tattoo on his chest like the former UFC Heavyweight champion. He's definitely improved as a fighter. By all accounts, Josh Koscheck is an incredibly hard worker who has managed to take the right path in life and stay out of trouble.This season's Ultimate Fighter show was largely pedestrian sans some amusing segments between Koscheck and an EMT (aka ‘male nurse.') Realistically, that was the ‘worst offense' Koscheck did on the show. He was largely on good behavior and yet, if you listened to the audience at UFC 121 in Anaheim, they treated him like he was in lower standing than a third-world dictator. It's fairly obvious that the marketing vehicle of The Ultimate Fighter worked magnificently. The question: How did everything come together perfectly to create this combustible fan reaction?
Arnold's readers respond with two theories about what Koscheck's secret:
- Georges St. Pierre
This theory argues that Koscheck is more hated than Chael Sonnen because the fans love GSP and they don't care for Anderson Silva. GSP has argued that he owes his popularity with the fans to the fact that they've seen him fail and come back from adversity. Until the Sonnen fight, that couldn't be said of Anderson Silva who had mostly coasted and gloated in the eyes of fans. - Bad Sportsmanship
Koscheck spent his tenure on the show "coaching his team to be bad winners, sore losers, and generally just bad sports". It's not just his coaching, as I mentioned above, Koscheck has played up eye pokes and arguably illegal knees to the head against Anthony Johnson and Paul Daley to the point that many fans consider him an actor as much as a fighter. He's also more than happy to put on a crappy fight to get a win. He made no bones about doing the bare minimum against Diego Sanchez and Paul Daley -- using sprawl and brawl against Sanchez and lay and pray against Daley -- to get the nod from the judges.
It's not easy to be the biggest heel in the UFC. My hat is off to Koscheck for grasping market realities and playing up his natural personality to become one of the UFC's personas that fans care the most about. We may be booing, but we'll be watching.
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I have a feeling that Koscheck’s heel act is going to become very stale after he loses to GSP. All the crap he did on TUF is going to come back to haunt him as a drawing card. In pro wrestling words, he’s going to have X-Pac heat.
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Why couldn't he just hype the fight by saying
I’m an interesting stylistic match up for GSP, my camp has fought him twice and we know him, and I have power in my fists? This kind of stuff always bores me.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
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I have no problem with the heel “act” in MMA, but I guess I’m pretty particular about my tastes in it. Chael Sonnen’s obvious lies and almost trolling comments do absolutely nothing for me. Heel heat is all about emotional investment, just like a person’s love for a particular fighter. Chael doesn’t make me hate him or make me want to see his ass get kicked – he makes me want to turn my TV off. Koscheck is the same way. He’s childish, immature, and not funny. That’s not a good heel to me, it doesn’t make me interested in you, win or lose. Tito’s another one that tries way too hard.
Guys that I DO find have a good heel persona are usually ones that aren’t trying, it’s just natural. Lesnar, with his eff off attitude; Mir, with his arrogance; Nick Diaz, with…well, whatever the hell he’s talking about. THOSE guys make me wanna watch their fights.
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by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m always suspicious of the concept that guys are acting like heels solely to sell tickets to fights. I think most people who act like assholes have strong asshole-ish tendencies and jump at any opportunity to display them without fear of consequences. I believe that there is an element of calculation in what a guy like Chael does, but I also believe at some level that he enjoys acting like a jerk. Of course Chael’s behavior has exactly the desired effect on me, in that I want to see him lose.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Dec 7, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I completely agree. I think Kos is just as much of a douchebag as he appears to be. The Daley fight is what sealed it, intentionally laying on a guy to prove a point in front of 15 thousand fans who paid 100.00 and up for a ticket was ridiculous. The real reason people hate Koscheck is because he is your garden variety bully. Against 2nd tier guys like Yoshida hes a real tough guy, but against quality opponents suddenly he lays on them for 3 rounds (Daley), runs away for 3 rounds nearly causing a riot in the arena (Diego), Lays on them for 3 rounds (Leben on TUF), blatantly fakes an injury (Rumble and Daley to a lesser extent), or lays on them for 3 rounds (Lytle). Disgracing himself as a coach on TUF, to the point where his #1 pick and good friend actually openly hated him by the end of the show, certainly didnt help his case any either.
by Hutchy on Dec 7, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I may not be a fan of Kos either
but he didn’t just lay on Lytle, that might’ve been one of the bloodiest fights in recent memory
"Although detractors decry it as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally f***ing awesome form of human cockfighting"
I like Sonnen's act for some reason.
What about Tito? Where does he fall?
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
I don’t know. I think I like him just because people take him seriously and get so worked up over his obvious troll jobs.
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
That's what drives me nuts about Sonnen
He openly, obviously lies but then people freak out in response. How are people entertained/upset by any of what he says? His interviews are lame, canned material you can tell he’s been practicing. It’s not the guy, it’s the reaction I can’t take.
Not afraid to nitpick
I hate Kos for 3 reasons:
1. being the reason Logan and Natasha got fired
2. Kind of connected to number 1, demoralizing Rumble by faking being poked in the eye during their fight, Rumble is a fatass now who probably can’t get back to 170
3. Talking about Daley’s mom or whatever he said to make Daley punch him after the bell, which banished Daley from the UFC
whoa!
Those bitches got my Natasha fired!!??!! I never heard this . Do tell.?
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Logan and Natasha both spoke out against Koscheck
after the Johnson fight (accused him of over-acting on the eye poke) and Dana didn’t care for that. Supposedly Arianny had been gunning for them before that so it was her opportunity to get them canned.
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>:(
Fuck Arianny and that fraggle
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 8, 2010 12:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's what's great about this fight
Koscheck gets in EVERYBODY’S head. But the only person to really get in Georges’ head is Hughes. Even Bj wasn’t able to.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
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Number 3
The only person who got Daley banned was Daley.
Semtex is a grown man who should know better.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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It’s the Montreal screwjob all over again!
But in all seriousness, blaming Koschek’s trash talk for Paul Daley’s actions is weak.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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All those are dumb reasons to hate Koscheck.
1. Arianny has more pull than you think.
2. You can’t blame Koscheck for Johnson being a lazy ass who refuses to get off the couch and into the gym.
3. Daley screwed himself over. Why blame other people for somebody’s stupid mistake?
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 7, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
Your reasons are terrible
1. THEY opened their mouths and gave the UFC an excuse to fire them.
2. RUMBLE THUMBED HIM IN THE EYE. Even Joe Rogan admitted it.
3. That’s hearsay at best.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Hearsay Shmearsay
I’m not saying any of my reasons would hold up in court, simply saying that a few people I like reacted to Koscheck’s douchiness and paid dearly for it.
Of course they were accidents.
But people act like they never happened.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
It's kind of frustrating. But it must piss Kos off so much when people talk about the phantom knee
that wasn’t phantom at all. I kind of like that.
So GSP argues that fans would like Anderson more if he had lost?
That’s definitely an argument that GSP would make, but I don’t buy it at all. Maybe its because GSP is better looking. It definitely helped that Hughes and Bj were bigger stars than Rich Franklin and Hendo. Hell, Koscheck may even be a bigger star than Franklin.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
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It’s not as simple as saying that he acts like the little snot-nosed brother you never had because that shtick wouldn’t draw the fan reaction he’s getting now.
That isn’t it at all. Its he is the typical jock bully that everyone in life has had to deal with at some point and hated. He is pure bully and personally that is why I think fans don’t like him. Just like his coach said last night on countdown. “He is a prick”
by DonkeyOatey on Dec 7, 2010 3:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That's just how some people are. Let's not act like he's the only one in the business who is 'just a prick'..
He just happens to be one of the few who flaunts it in front of cameras.
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 7, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
you can be a prick and the people will love you for it
if you do it right, like say, Nick Diaz.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
There is a very important distinction here: Diaz is a prick who comes to fight. He will take insane amounts of shit, but never dodges a fight………well, almost never, ahem…….and when it comes time to fight, hes right there throwing punches. People like that. What they DONT like is a douchey, jockish prick who seems to want to have nothing to do with an actual fight when the cage door closes.
And Josh doesn't?
He took on the second best WW on a couple days notice. And fights.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Oh God. The point is, it was THIAGO ALVES without a camp
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Ya I agree with SC
Kos is just as much “a fuckin fighter” but he just has a douchiness inherent in how he rolls. It’s just his mannerisms and how he speaks.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
That is true, but he does flaunt it. He is just one of those people that no matter what he does it comes across being douchy.
THIS!
Just like I said, his mannerisms and style can only be described as “douchyism”
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
And as a result
You have an interest in watching him fight.
Seems to be a good plan for Kos.
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Actually I have interest in him getting his ass handed to him. If he were fighting anyone else but GSP I wouldn’t even have a passing thought about watching Kos fight. I wouldn’t support a bully in any form. Here I guess the WWF mentality has gotten me so that I want to see him get crushed.
Will I order this PPV? No. Will I watch it at the local tavern for $10? Maybe. Will I see this PPV at all? Absolutely.
A lot of fighters are assholes,
Kos seems to pride himself on it…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
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by The American Ronin on Dec 7, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Based on?
People are quick to skewer people based on their on camera personalities.
I’ve worked in film/video for seven years and I can tell you that when you hit record on a camera, people change.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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Doesn’t take a lot of asking around the MMA world to get the impression that it’s not just an act. I have no doubt that a portion of it is…but certainly not all of it
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 7, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
I found that weird.
He called Kos a dick and said he didn’t get along with him at all. But he’s always buddy buddy with Kos and GSP is like the unloved child all on his own.
Koscheck has the "Tito Ortiz" factor of cockiness that comes coupled with
awkward and awful smack talk. There is something intrinsic in the nature about both fighters that is hard to put a finger on, but it just repulsive. The word that keeps coming to mind is “douchieness”
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
Koscheck has actually won a fight in the past 3 years, though.
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 7, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm talking strictly in terms of their personality
and why the fans hate them.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 7, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Overanalysis
People don’t like Koscheck because he has a douchey face and ridiculous hair.
It’s not fighter-bashing if it’s true, right?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
he should grow it long like Brookins. or go with a mohawk, which would be more like a poodle-hawk, or poo-hawk, if you will.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 7, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
i’m seriously considering breaking my vow to never join twitter just so i can see if i can get Koscheck to do it.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 7, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
kickass!
my comment on fight opinion got quoted by kid nate! where do I collect my money?
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Dec 7, 2010 3:48 PM EST reply actions
Here, have some Internet money:
"Honour is like virginity, it can only be used once." - G. Clemenceau
by Firm1 on Dec 7, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I support the notion that people hate him because he looks like a clown.
And society hates clowns.
"Although detractors decry it as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally f***ing awesome form of human cockfighting"
Personality
Before TUF, I was actually rooting for Kos to win the fight (been underwhelmed by post-Serra GSP and his position > dmg mentality), but I had forgotten what a douchbag Kos was. Kos was several years removed from TUF, he had put on some good performances… he was still abrasive, but it was in small doses.
When he was on the show, Koscheck seemed to be a jerk solely for the sake of being a jerk. He was self-centered and narrow-minded as a coach (not as bad as some we have seen the past, but he didn’t get recover any points from his coaching style). After his team had been all but wiped out by Team GSP, he put it back on the team saying something to the effect of “when people lose, they like to point the fingers at others, but they should be looking in the mirror” (something like that implying it was the fighter’s fault). Anyway, I think that somewhat ironic statement sums him up. He speaks in third person, he doesn’t listen to his own advice, and he’s a jerk to anyone who isn’t “with him”. I would say he comes across as extremely insecure, but I think he actually buys into it on some level. To Josh, he is the center of the universe.
Sonnen was almost cartoonish in his rants against Silva. I generally found most of his comments funny. He said things with a straight face, but I got the impression even he got a kick out of some of the stuff coming out of his mouth. If he didn’t back it up though, he would have been butchered post fight by the fans.
I like Koscheck the fighter, but I had forgot how much I dislike the person.
by Diz D on Dec 7, 2010 4:01 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
this^
except for liking him as a fighter.
"We have all had to watch Brock Lesnar fart around. That guy is an embarrassment. God damn, you get to hand pick his opponents for him for a while then someone who is a half way decent athlete comes along and hits him once and he pisses his pants and runs. If he wasn't in a cage he would still be running."
-Don Frye
Interestingly enough
One of my theories goes back to season 1 of TUF. Here’s the thing – Chris Leben wasn’t exactly known as a nice person, in fact, most people remember his antics on the show more than his fights – like Pissing on someone’s bed and being an all around drunk ass.
Thing is, the viewer was able to sympathize with him because of the way it was painted – he grew up a troubled kid, lots of issues, depression, drinking problem, etc… And somehow, through all of that, most of us wanted him to redeem himself, which he has done in the eyes of most UFC fans. Who doesn’t love a Leben fight? Most people want to see him win because he’s constantly the underdog and he always fights to the death, figuratively.
Back to the 1st season…. Who was there to mess with Leben at Leben’s lowest moment (depression, etc)? Kos and Bobby Southworth, but KOSCHECK was the instigator like 99% of the time.
He’s been booed ever since. Time has passed but people don’t forget that stuff, especially when his attitude or schtick hasn’t changed at all.
Heres the real problem: the fact that he proceeded to go out, after all that, and lay on Leben for the entire fight, not even throwing a single punch with bad intentions on the ground or standing. Thats the real issue, that Kos is a prick who seems to use his abilities to avoid actually fighting at all costs. A prick who goes out looking to destroy someone in the cage is named Mike Tyson, Brock Lesnar, or Nick Diaz. A prick who talks shit and then metaphorically “runs” is Kos.
He’s been booed ever since. Time has passed but people don’t forget that stuff, especially when his attitude or schtick hasn’t changed at all.
I think people could have gotten over the TUF 1 stuff…IF he hadn’t kept giving people new reasons to dislike him, as you pointed out. The latest season of TUF in particular has done nothing if not thrown a magnifying glass on Koscheck’s worst attributes.
People hate Koscheck because he fucked with Chris Leben, who was everyone's favorite on TUF Season 1
He messed with a bully. And then he BEAT him and sent him home. Fans never let that go. They called him a blanket even though he hasn’t lay and prayed since. Then he uses wrestling in one fight against Daley and he’s back to being lay and pray.
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I think its more that he attacked Leben’s home life on national TV in really despicable fashion. Also, I wouldnt call that BEATING him, not in any fashion that any casual fan would appreciate him. NEUTRALIZED him, maybe, but to my knowledge he didnt throw a single punch in that fight. So what your saying is: “He hasnt laid and prayed since…..well, except for his last fight, but BESIDES that”.
That was Bobby Southworth who called him a "fatherless bastard"
Leben said, and did, shit just as bad. He pissed on someone’s bed and everyone laughed it off. He bullied Jason Thacker, people laughed it off. It was cool. He was the fucking Catsmasher lollolol smiley face. But poor him when Bobby and Josh did a “Bully beatdown” on him. People like that show, that’s what Bobby and Josh were doing. Fighting back to a bully.
Then it was supposed to be big Catsmasher “I break people’s face” against little ol wrestler boy and wrestler boy won. Decisively. If Josh “didn’t throw a punch”, Leben (the BIGGER guy) threw less than nothing. And Leben ran off crying. All that contributed to the Koscheck hate. And it’s been strong ever since.
He hasn’t Lay and Prayed since TUF. He’s had 13 UFC fights. People call his last fight LnP, but if that was, then so are GSP’s fights. He was using his wrestling to beat his opponent.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
I actually haven’t seen TUF 1 yet, but I cannot stand Kos the slightest bit.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 7, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously?
It’s definitely worth the 12 hours or so. I haven’t watched since season 5, but season 1 was really interesting, even without the kiddy drama.
http://www.instrength.com
Really?
I wasn’t watching TUF 1 the time it aired, got to see it only later. But how on earth could you like a drunk, whiny bastard like Leben? What they did to him with the garden hose and stuff sucked because they were basically kicking him when he was down already. But still…people really liked Leben back then?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
i think some people give Koscheck too much credit.
Yeah, i think he played the heel to the best of his ability but judging by his witless banter from the TUF season and beyond, he is just a meathead. I think he is a good fighter but some give him too much credit to think he actually planned more than the 5 seconds it takes for any thought to get from his brain/hair to his mouth to market himself this way
by capt insano on Dec 7, 2010 5:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
i think some people give Koscheck too much credit.
Yeah, i think he played the heel to the best of his ability but judging by his witless banter from the TUF season and beyond, he is just a meathead. I think he is a good fighter but some give him too much credit to think he actually planned more than the 5 seconds it takes for any thought to get from his brain/hair to his mouth to market himself this way
by capt insano on Dec 7, 2010 5:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
There is little that Koscheck does that seems deliberate to me. Seeing a strategy behind his so called “heel persona” is just another case of the epidemic of WWE-comparisons here on BE. If Koscheck has been build up as a douche, he has to thank the UFC and Spike for it. He himself may claim now that this is some masterplan but he just is an insecure ass. Plain and simple. Just look at him: the only guy who had to pick on somebody who wasn’t even a fighter in TUF. His reputation (true or not) of faking injuries. His brash hairstyle and attitude mixed with the akward-persona that shines through in his mimic and gestures. I really don’t see how a “crowd manipulation expert” can fail to see why Koscheck is so hated…unless he really isn’t that much of an expert for this topic and only for WWE-stratgies.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
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