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Is the UFC Provoking a Face Off With Keith Kizer and the NSAC?

Keith Kizer

UFC commentator Joe Rogan absolutely went off on the judges of Saturday's Leonard Garcia vs Nam Pham fight at The Ultimate Fighter 12 Finale, calling them "incompetent morons" and making it very clear that the UFC doesn't control the judges. 

In the aftermath, Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer spoke to MMAFA.com:

"They always say that ‘the UFC has nothing to do with judging.' Well guess what, they've got a big fight coming up in Canada called Koscheck vs. Georges St. Pierre - the UFC and Marc Ratner are flying Tony Weeks up there as a judge. C'mon, Joe. How about some honesty? They've taken 90% of our officials with them overseas, as they should. That's not a knock on Dana [White] and Marc [Ratner]; they know what they're doing."

"Yeah, I have a problem with how they scored the third round. Definitely. I mean, they're both very good judges which makes it all the more surprising."
...
"There have been judges that we've had here who we've sent packing. It didn't work out. Every judge needs to stay sharp, but everyone makes mistakes."
...
"A lot of people were saying that about the Rampage vs. Machida fight. Even Dana White said that. You get people who love to overreact. Obviously there are people who want to feel superior than others, trash others. Maybe they are full of some self-hate, some self-pity... maybe that's Rogan's piece as well."
...
"There are ways to criticize professionally, ethically, effectively and legitimately. But then there are ways where you are just trying to make yourself look better."

Kizer also brings up the baseball umpire who ruined the perfect game saying "you can't be more wrong than that" but that on the whole the ump is considered a top five referee by MLB players. He concludes that everyone will get a call wrong from time to time. 

But the more interesting angle is the open squabbling between the UFC and their home-state commission.

Zuffa has deep ties to the NSAC. UFC co-owner Lorenzo Fertitta was once a member of the commission. Zuffa VP Marc Ratner once held Kizer's Executive Director post. The UFC books more events in Nevada than in any other state by far (anyone want to run the numbers?) and brings beaucoup revenue to the struggling state.

Where this all gets really interesting is a potential second front of conflict between the promotion and the commission.

Zach Arnold paints an interesting scenario:

Under oath, Sonnen claimed that he talked with Nevada State Athletic Commission boss Keith Kizer about TRT. Kizer has told numerous media members after the hearing that he did no such thing.

Which leads us to the next step in this saga. Sonnen will have to re-apply for a fighter's license in Nevada because it expires on the 31st. Mr. Kizer will face a predicament. As Kevin Iole recently noted, the houses for big fighting events in Las Vegas are way down. Scary numbers for the casino shows. We know that UFC generates significant revenue for the local Vegas economy with their big events there. The rematch between Sonnen and Silva will draw big, big numbers if it's done in Las Vegas. Will Keith Kizer stand up to Chael Sonnen and help block Sonnen from getting licensed again or will the economics of the situation alter the outcome of the re-licensing hearing? After all, the Nevada commission did reject a license request for Antonio Margarito after he got caught with a plaster-like substance on his hand wraps in California. The difference between Margarito and Sonnen, however, is that Margarito is a reviled figure nationally and Sonnen has gained fan support since the Silva fight.

This all makes me wonder if there hasn't been some tension building between Zuffa and Kizer for some time or if the Commission is just a convenient scapegoat for bad judging. Clearly MMA judging needs to improve but I'd be surprised if that was the real issue driving this dispute.

Zuffa may feel that it's time to remind Kizer that in the land of the free and the home of the brave, money talks and bureaucrats are disposable if they start messing with the golden goose. 

UPDATE: Joe Rogan responds to Kizer on the UG:

We all know that there's a big problem with judging in MMA, and we all know that Kizer is pretending that there's nothing wrong with having a bunch of people with no martial arts training and no understanding of the sport judging it on a professional level.

There's only one way for me to bring the maximum attention to this issue; and that's to voice my opinion on air during a live Television show where I know that millions of people are going to listen to it.

I understand that this upset him, but he's had plenty of time to correct all of these judging issues, and yet he denies there's a real problem and continues to employ people to judge important fights that are ignorant of many of the details of Mixed Martial Arts.

I also found it quite hilarious that he denies that the NSAC is 100% to blame for this judging situation and even brought up that we're taking NSAC appointed judges to Canada.

The NSAC for all it's flaws is the most important ruling body in combat sports. To bring judges that aren't appointed and approved by the NSAC would open up a whole new can of worms. The question would also come up as to who appoints those other judges? What is the UFC's relationship with them?

Kizer is a politician, and one of the biggest issues with him is that he's not willing to admit that he's not done the best job possible with the best intentions of the sport and it's participants in mind. This calculated denial of a problem is the reason why these same judges are turning in bad decisions over and over again. In order for him to correct the problem he's going to have to admit that he's been wrong in employing these people, and he's not willing to do that.

Mixed Martial Arts is a far more complicated sport than boxing, and in order for someone to be educated in the subtle details that are playing out in a fight they have to have some martial arts experience themselves. There are PLENTY of fans out there that would do a far better job than these people that he's got working for him that have been grandfathered in from the boxing community. To judge MMA on the highest level is a huge honor and responsibility, and should be bestowed upon people that appreciate that honor and appreciate and understand every single aspect of the sport. Anything less than that is an insult to these great athletes that are dedicating their lives to compete in the toughest sport in the world, and an insult to the fans that have to be disappointed with one terrible decision after the next.

Thankfully we live in a time where the fans have an option to get their opinions out there.

I've seen all the positive support online, and I urge you guys to keep it up. Please keep up the emails, and keep up the blog posts. The only way this thing is going to change is if the people in charge feel like they have to do something about it to keep their jobs intact.

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There is a lot of idiocy on both sides. I find it strange that the UFC is taking Tony Weeks to Canada, despite judging Nam Phan vs. Leonard Garcia (29-28 Garcia). But the bigger issue is Kizer’s ignorance to the problems. He always states that there isn’t an issue, but there are huge issues that have come up consistently over the last couple of years.

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by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

I also find the UFC’s use of Weeks strange considering how the Nam/Garcia turned out. I’m really curious to see what the UFC’s rationale/excuse is for that.

by Hardcase on Dec 7, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

No I don’t, but I also don’t know what timeframe they use when selecting officials for international events. I’m also curious if Weeks has a track record in these kind of decisions, and if so, why did he still get the nod. Was he the only one available or what? I think it would be informative to find out one way or the other. “They’ve taken 90% of our officials with them overseas,” that’s not something you see stressed when people are quick to criticize the commission. While I think they do need to do something about their officiating, I’m interested in hearing all sides of the situation.

by Hardcase on Dec 7, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Weeks has a history of "decisions" including 29-28 for Kimbo/Alexander

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

that’s fine, i have no idea what his history is, but I still have no idea how people think the Nam/Garcia decision can or should have a major impact on who is judging next week.

by Phildo on Dec 7, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

His history isn’t good.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

If his history is bad, why did the UFC choose him?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Uhhhhh everyone scored the fight for Kimbo.

Were you not in awe over KIMBOPLEX?

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

It was 30-27 Kimbo

Houston did NOTHING

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

The UFC has stated their desire to make events in countries that are not governed by an AC

as true to form as possible. Hand selecting referees and judges is a tricky game to play. I think the fact that they have taken a good chunk of these people with them on the road is a good sign. As for weeks in this case; I am surprised they are taking him, but I am sure they contracted his services ages ago and I don’t know that is something they could easily get out of.

I am sure he won’t be at the top of the phone list after this…

by truck on Dec 7, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I keep hearing how huge this Sonnen/Silva II fight will be...

…but isn’t that all predicated on the huge numbers that were estimated – and shown to be false – for their last meeting? I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument that a rematch will do huge numbers that takes into account the frankly average number of PPV buys for their last outing.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

That's what I like.

A nice long rant with no actual policy recommendations. Good one, Joe.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

he's got some actual recs in there

mainly getting rid of boxing judges and bringing in judges with MMA experience. that’s a valid comment IMO.

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by Nate Wilcox on Dec 7, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Where does he suppose they'll come from?

“Get Better Judges” is a nice suggestion, but who are these people? How does he know they’ll be better? Do they have any experience? Have they applied to be judges in the past and been denied?

I’m not saying his comments are invalid. I’m saying that they’re not actionable.

Meanwhile, Big John and Herb Dean are out training people and trying to teach them how to ref and how to judge fights.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

is Rogan in a position to train judges?

He’s doing his part which is using his bully pulpit to raise a warning flag. That’s his role.

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by Nate Wilcox on Dec 7, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Complaints without suggestions are less than useful.

And he actually IS making suggestions – just ones that don’t make any sense. “Get some fans to judge fights!” “Find some guys that did Martial Arts!” “Don’t just use judges with experience in boxing – use people with no experience at all!”

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

1. He’s saying the judges are so bad that fans with no professional obligation can do a better job. This isn’t a suggestion to hire fans, it’s just an attack at the judges. Reading comprehension, dude.

2. Martial Arts training invariably results in knowledge gained. Rogan wants knowledgeable, observant judges. It seems only valid to think that people training in disciplines prevalent in MMA would be quite fit to judge an event.

3. You derived your final suggestion. Fallacy.

by Pyrgz Krum on Dec 7, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

we kinda said the same thing

I think jemal is cut from the subo,s.c. mold. He is smart enough to know what joe was saying but chooses to pick it apart.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

No.

Please provide one concrete step that Keith Kizer can take from Joe’s rant.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

At the moment they're not even willing to accept that there's a problem.

And they’re trying to deny it while attacking the UFC’s choices. Joe’s only taking the first step – Rebutting Kizer’s argument and illustrating the problem.

The time for specific suggestion comes when the NSAC’s minds are more open to them, not now when they’re making it clear that they’ll fall on deaf ears.

by Cunny on Dec 7, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Shit, attacking him sounds like the right idea if we're trying to open him up to suggestions.

Wait…

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it does.

Attacks provoke resistance, not acceptance.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions  

This is a criticism. Not everything needs to be handled with kids gloves.

In reality, the most popular commentator for the biggest promotion in the sport aired a grievance with a governing body during a live broadcast event.

There is no higher-profile stage for Joe Rogan.

by kellly on Dec 8, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

But using that same high-profile stage to provide actual suggestions is more helpful than just attacking people – and more likely to affect change.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

1.dont hire judges that dont know jits and muay thai!!!!

2. He has suggested monitors before.
 Hell spike was setting them up for the judges at a fight night and kaiser pulled the plug on them.
3.Fire bad judges.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 1:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Those are ways to get rid of or aid bad judges

The problem is finding, training, certifying and hiring good judges.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

a help wanted sign

read resumes. The same way everyone is hired.
 Have them apprentice for a year. Have them turn in cards at events and then summarize why they scored a fight a particular way.
 but the biggest problem is denying there is a problem!

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 2:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Providing constructive steps is a better way to get change than calling judges morons and insulting the person in charge.

I’m sorry that I’m the only one that can see this.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

They're not willing to admit that steps need to be taken.

There’s no shortage of suggestions out there if the Commission were willing to change, which they aren’t yet.

by Cunny on Dec 7, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

"Get some fans to judge fights!"
There are PLENTY of fans out there that would do a far better job than these people that he’s got working for him that have been grandfathered in from the boxing community.

That’s what you interpreted?

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the closest I can find in the second to last paragraph to a policy suggestion.

Do you see something else?

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

He is implying fans could do a better job than these jokes for judges

He’s not saying they should be judges.

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

My comment started out as a response to Asa

I said there were no concrete suggestions, he suggested looking in the second-to-last paragraph.

Do you see any concrete suggestions? “Some martial arts experience” is not a concrete recommendation.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't see suggestions

I’m sure if someone asks him for suggestions we’d get a better response.

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he has any

I think that’s a lovely rant, but no better than his previous on-air diatribe: sound and fury, yadda, yadda, yadda.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's at least one suggestion

“he’s going to have to admit that he’s been wrong in employing these people”

There’s a concrete step to take.

by BKdroid on Dec 7, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

How *exactly* would such a statement make the situation better?

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

if you don't admit there's a problem you'll never work to correct it

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 2:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

You don't have to admit that there's a problem to make changes.

You can say that things are fine and that you’re making them better.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The first step to recovery is to admit you have a problem. So says the book of 12.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 7, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think the problem is Keith's drinking.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I can. He’s asking Kizer to recognize there is a problem. This is step one of problem solving.

If Kizer acknowledges the problem then we can move on to options to fix it. Rogan also suggests hiring judges with martial arts experience. That’s something.

by Rufford on Dec 7, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Pressing the issue seems pretty important in itself.

Satoshi Kon
R.I.P.

by Grappo on Dec 7, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Meanwhile, terribad judges appointed by an apathetic athletic commission will continue to plague MMA events. That’s the problem, here. Not the judges themselves so much as the fact that bad judges stay in work because the NSAC doesn’t give a fuck how good they are.

by Pyrgz Krum on Dec 7, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

They could start with an ad saying ‘judges needed, relevent MMA experience necessary’

by MRR1 on Dec 7, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

What?

Second to last paragraph, man.

Good to to see you around more often, btw! Hope all is well.

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 7, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

What, that Keith should hire some unnamed and possibly imaginary MMA fans to be judges?

Really? We’re taking that seriously? You and me are gonna fly out to Vegas and start judging fights?

Cause I don’t trust us. :-)

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

do you have martial arts training?

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:20 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I took a little Karate back in the day

And I’ve been thinking about training UFC. :-P

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

point being

The rant where rogan “said nothing”. He said the judges should have martial arts training. Which I think is one of the most important thing for a judge.bjj and Muay Thai have very different techniques than boxing. If you haven’t experienced them its hard to judge their effectiveness.
If you don’t know about bjj and thai boxing you probably shouldn’t be a judge.
I am sure there are some peeps that would be great judges that haven’t trained,but those same people would be even better if they did.
So if you don’t train rogan wasn’t suggesting you become a judge. Until you do so of course.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Martial arts training?

How much? What kinds? Do you have to train yourself, or could you get second-hand experience? Are we going to decide that a disabled person can’t judge a fight because they can’t strap on a gi?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

No gi in MMA
To judge MMA on the highest level is a huge honor and responsibility, and should be bestowed upon people that appreciate that honor and appreciate and understand every single aspect of the sport. Anything less than that is an insult to these great athletes that are dedicating their lives to compete in the toughest sport in the world, and an insult to the fans that have to be disappointed with one terrible decision after the next.

Emphasis mine.

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 7, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah: pipe dream.

Not surprising from Joe.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Getting former MMA fighters is a pipe dream?

I dunno man.

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 7, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Are those the most impartial guys?

Former is kind of a funny word in this instance – most of these guys retire but stay connected to gyms and camps.

But what I was talking about was the “EVERY SINGLE ASPECT” part of that statement. Nobody is going to know every aspect of every martial art.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Not every martial art

Every aspect of the sport.

If they aren’t competent in every aspect then how can they judge every aspect? Is a former boxing judge who once took karate gonna tag-out whenever someone gets a takedown so a guys who knows grappling can step in and score?

I’m not suggesting it’s not hard, but there are tons of DVDs and book available to educate someone on what’s happening. Is taking a class or two every week for a few months impractical if it teaches you how to do your job?

I think Luke’s point about the people who have the knowledge not applying is apt and touches on what you’re saying about “former” fighters. But wouldn’t that preclude anyone who has actual experience in the sport from being a judge? Tough call.

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 7, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

But this goes back to my point...

…that actual training is less important than education. All you have to do is look at the shitty job a lot of fighters do in calling fights to see that folks that don’t train can understand and analyze what’s going on just as well.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

No doubt, man

I’m wondering what Kizer meant by “proof” they know what they’re judging.

As for fighters, training to fight (physical performance, +martial arts) and just studying martial arts (knowledge and understanding) are two different things. While I think pro’s could be useful due to first-hand experience, I also think civillians can do it with training.

No easy solutions, but I still agree with Rogan’s goal. Full competency while judging someone else’s livelihood.

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 8, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but who would disagree with Joe's goal?

I mean, just saying “People who do a job should understand it and do it well” isn’t really that controversial. My point is that saying that, coupled with the way he said it, is beyond unhelpful.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

He wasn't hired to say anything helpful to the NSAC.

I think making it a public issue is good, even though he did it out of frustration. Those of us behind keyboards were already aware/stressed/disinterested about it, but he made his point on national cable television. He expressed his feelings and hopefully made it a larger issue for scrutiny.

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 8, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Or even people who train?

Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.

by asa on Dec 7, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

unless they got crippled doing mma. pretty much.

Color blind people can’t be fiber cable splicers.
Blind people cant be fighter pilots.
Deaf people can’t be telephone customer service reps or navy sonar operators.
I wanted to be a fighter pilot. But no 20/20. Life sucks, everybody isn’t built for every job.
Its silly to pretend that we all are.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 1:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This isn't flying an F-15.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i know

Currently I believe you can be blind and be a mma judge.
They make sure you can see before you fly a plane.
But that statement points to the fact that you don’t really care about this issue. Its more about making up excuses for you.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 4:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

No, I think that you don't have to have trained in every - or even any - discipline to judge MMA.

Many of the best correspondents and commentators haven’t. Lots of the best insight around here comes from people that don’t train. While training is certainly a benefit, it’s not the only way to learn.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

“You’re an expert swimmer that never got in the pool” – Matt Serra

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 5:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Some of the best coaches never played.

No?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

they never played professionally. I am willing to bet nearly all of them played.

And almost all of the BEST coaches did play at a very high level.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 8, 2010 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

5 top NFL coaches as named by Yahoo sports.

Thomas Wade “Tom” Landry (September 11, 1924 – February 12, 2000) was an American football player and coach.
Donald Francis “Don” Shula (born January 4, 1930) is a former American football cornerback and coach.

Bill Walsh-Walsh attended College of San Mateo for two years as a quarterback. He then transferred to San José State University, where he played as a tight end and a defensive end

Paul Brown-Enrolling at The Ohio State University as a freshman quarterback,

Vince – Lombardi played American football at St. Francis Preparatory School, and later Fordham University.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 8, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Shit, that's all then.

I guess there are no other sports or good coaches in them.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

And notice, most of those are OLD coaches

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 8, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

All old and white.

And I’m not sure if playing at Fordham counts as playing. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't want to say THAT

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 8, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 8, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Beat the game and become a judge?

by truck on Dec 7, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

all judging to be done by Rickson Gracie, Randy couture and Cro cop

You sir are a Genius! !!! I like your style.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

it would rep all the major styles.

And no one would call the judges names after the fight. :-) those dudes would hurt rogan if he got Lippy about one of their decisions. Lol

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

So Spamming the takedown can make you a judge?

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

we will know if that's true if sonnen ever becomes a judge

:-)

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 12:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i agree but

Like I said , training could do nothing but help.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Small mercies.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

At least in that excerpt, he doesn’t address the UFC bringing up Weeks as a judge when they go to Canada.

by Hardcase on Dec 7, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

That was probably planned months/weeks ahead of time.

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding." - Sun Tzu
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Dec 7, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d assume so as well, but it’s been brought to my attention Weeks has a history of questionable decisions, which makes me still wonder why he got selected by the UFC. I’d really like to hear the UFC’s defense of that pick.

by Hardcase on Dec 7, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because the UFC is flying Weeks, does that mean that they picked him? I know the UFC can’t pick refs — can they pick judges? I doubt it. They’re probably also flying 2 other judges, as well.

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding." - Sun Tzu
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Dec 7, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s only one way for me to bring the maximum attention to this issue

Like what he said of not, this part is true. Nothing has been more telling than his rant or Josh Thompson’s comments after his fight with JZ. Doing things quietly wasn’t working. I am glad people are starting to step up and say it loud.

by truck on Dec 7, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Next step

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 7, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Good points, but did he write it?

Does anyone think that Rogan might not have actually written this?

It seems like it might have been produced by the UFCs marketing department and vetted by a lawyer—too many commas in the right place…

If you’re going to after the Commission publicly, doing so through your colorful color commentator is a great way to wage the battle while pretending that it doesn’t come straight from the top.

by trainyourmind on Dec 7, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Sonnen claimed that he talked with Nevada State Athletic Commission boss Keith Kizer about TRT. Kizer has told numerous media members after the hearing that he did no such thing.


Has anyone even thought that perhaps Kizer is the one not telling the truth?

You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.

twitter.com/JayAreW

by J_R_W on Dec 7, 2010 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

Have you not been paying attention?

What percentage of the public statements that Chael has made turned out to be truthful?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but how many of those have been in the interest of promoting fights? There’s a difference.

You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.

twitter.com/JayAreW

by J_R_W on Dec 7, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Was lying about his Twitter account to hype up a fight?

Was lying about his comments about Lance Armstrong to hype up a fight?

Those are both examples of him talking shit to hype a fight, and then lying because he was embarrassed about the shit he said. Now he’s embarrassed about his testosterone use, why wouldn’t he be lying now?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I just give him too much credit, but he’s not stupid, I have a hard time believing he would lie under oath.

You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.

twitter.com/JayAreW

by J_R_W on Dec 7, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

he might be pathological

at a certain point it’s hard to know what’s true when you think and speak so much bullshit. I’ve seen it many many times in my decades in PR and politics. The old saying “you can’t bullshit a bullshitter” is utterly false. No one falls for bullshit like bullshitters.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 7, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Surprisingly true.

And nobody’s easier to deceive than the paranoid.

by Cunny on Dec 7, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

3%

3% Have been part of promoting a fight.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

No. People have grounds to doubt what Chael says. While one can disagree with Kizer’s stance on the judging issue in MMA, he hasn’t been untruthful, at least not on the comments made on mmafa.tv

by Hardcase on Dec 7, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Sonnen is full of shit, but Kizer is a politician. It is in his nature to lie like a rug.

No way in hell either one of them deserve the benefit of the doubt. Chances are, they are both manipulating the truth to suit their own needs.

by Steve4192 on Dec 7, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Where did the idea Kizer is a politician come from? That’s inaccurate.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 7, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That is the opposite of how a politician acts. A politician is responsible to voters. Kizer is appointed by officials who are themselves appointed. It’s not like he’s running for office.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 7, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

A politician is responsible to voters.

Funny, they don’t act like it most times.

"Everytime I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out of their ass!"

by Brian Mayes on Dec 7, 2010 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

No, a politician has to appearresponsible to voters and pretend to care what they think. That’s what any government body does.

by Cunny on Dec 7, 2010 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

“beaucoup”

by CstBoog on Dec 7, 2010 11:09 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

thanks

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Dec 7, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I’ve been joke-suggesting this for a while but maybe we need to get rid of judges and have text message voting backed with online/ toll free call-in votes. Sure we may not find out the winner for a few extra days but then we the masses will have no one to blame but ourselves.

by hewsdaddy on Dec 7, 2010 11:14 AM EST reply actions  

The problem with that is that there would be some immense bias in some instances due to a popularity contest.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Which brings us to the real question, would Jon Fitch be able to win a fight ever again? Will the dedication of the hardcores rallying to defend him be enough to beat back all the casuals who would inevitably vote against him?

by Pyrgz Krum on Dec 7, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

sadly what i think needs to happen is for the main event of a million plus ppv getting a horendous decision

get some mainstream media coverage behind this thing, if we get ESPN and other major sports outlets having these discussions along with all of us kizer will be forced to change

rogans fighting the good fight, but posts on the UG wont change the face of judging

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 7, 2010 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

I think you’re right. Judging from what I’ve seen from CSAC, NSAC must be similar, at least they appear to be. Something monstrously huge must occur for them to actually change anything. Maybe if Kos beat GSP in a bad decision… hmmmm….

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding." - Sun Tzu
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Dec 7, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

bad judging may help certain gamblers lol

Are the judges using monitors or viewing it live through the cage i feel like a lot of sub attempts and especially wild swinging strikes can be misinterpretted as effective. I think theyre putting a high emphasis on takedowns because its what they can clearly see. Even Dana watches on the monitor

by Papercut Elbow on Dec 7, 2010 11:29 AM EST reply actions  

Judges don’t get monitors currently. They have to view it through the cage fence, and it’s known that the posts get in the way quite a bit.

by Pyrgz Krum on Dec 7, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

you can't hardly see shit cage side.

You can see more in the first level seating then you can cage side where judges sit.
I know That’s the only reason rampage or Garcia got the nods in their last fights.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 11:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Every judge watches the big screens in the arena at UFC events.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 7, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The screens are located all around the building. It’s one of the reasons the UFC usually seats a few thousand less than, for example, basketball at an arena show. I have personally sat right beyond a judge for hundreds of fights and watched them turn to the screens just like everybody else in media row or on the floor.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 7, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Let the judges watch the fights on monitors in addition to being ringside.

Another serious issue is why does the UFC have monitors for the judges to watch the fights, yet when they get to Nevada ole Keith thinks they somehow negatively affect the fights.

by jj420 on Dec 7, 2010 11:30 AM EST reply actions  

I’m surprised by how vocal Rogan is on this. The NSAC/Zuffa relationship is even tighter than Nate suggests: besides Lorenzo and Ratner, Kieth Hendrick is a former NSAC member and I believe one of the current members is the Fertittas’ lawyer. It always resembled to me the relationship between the Pentagon and military manufacturers

by John Nash on Dec 7, 2010 11:31 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

Does Quebec not have an athletic/boxing commission? Why are Americans handling this in Canada? Shouldn’t the AC in Quebec not be hiring judges from out side if they need them rather than handing the task to the UFC?

by fitefan on Dec 7, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

yes they do.

but I think there are specific mandates on how many fights a judge can work, the time between, yadda yadda. Most other AC’s will bring in judges from the big guys like california, ohio and nevada whether its in canada or US.

And the other thing Im not sure about is whether or not these guys are union, if they are it would make more sense that they work on other comissions.

by destructivist on Dec 7, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

oh and case in point is referees. how many times have you seen herb dean, mazzagatti etc., outside of nevada?

by destructivist on Dec 7, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

In the US the refs and judges have to get certified in each state they want to work in and then are hired directly by the states AC. The AC charges the promoter a substantial fee for that. What Kizer said is

Well guess what, they’ve got a big fight coming up in Canada called Koscheck vs. Georges St. Pierre – the UFC and Marc Ratner are flying Tony Weeks up there as a judge

So why isn’t the Quebec AC flying him up if he is needed rather than the UFC?

by fitefan on Dec 7, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

2 major problems.

The sport will never be considered legitimate if we can’t get the judging correct a majority of the time.

An incorrect decision win denies the fighter, manager, coaches their rightful earnings.

by slickmma on Dec 7, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

PRIDE RULES

Japan is light years ahead of the US in terms of judging ! Why they don’t accept that and just copy their rules? Those so called unified rules suck and every MMArtist know it, and every fan of the sport knows it!
No 10-9 this thing does not work in mma, the thing is who got closer to finish the fight, and who wants it more, those boxing score cards do not aply to mma!
I think the best way to show ouer disapointment is to not buy the PPV untill they change those stupid boxing rules, and aply some real mma rules !

by Demordio on Dec 7, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

Japan has had tons of questionable decisions.

by William Wilson on Dec 7, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

I joke about Pride Rules being awesome

But they’re terrible. A fighter can be outstruck, outwrestled, and basically get mangled for 15 minute and still get the win because they sunk in a deep armbar at some point in the match. And don’t forget to factor in the unofficial xenophobic yellow card given to non-japanese fighters on a regular bases.

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

BUDO!

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Dec 7, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Hypothetical

Fighter A dominates Fighter B for 4:45 of the round, but Fighter B catches Fighter A in Guillotine in the closing seconds of that round. Should FIghter B’s last minute submission attempt negate all of the damage that Fighter A inflicted?

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Rd 1 of Rick Story vs. Dustin Hazelett level of Domination and Nate Marquardt’s Guillotine when he fought Chael Sonnen.

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

cerrone vs. varner 1

At the end of round 2 cerrone had Varner in a LOCKED UP in triangle.
In my opinion, in a case such as that. the fighter shouldn’t be saved by the bell. If they are caught in DEEP sub they would have to free themselves before the round is called.
For instance falco vs. Harris.
 I also believe ko’s shouldn’t be saved by the bell. Think gurgel vs noons. I know That hit was illegal but they shouldn’t have let him come out for the next rd.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 2:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Anything Saved by the bell will get a rec...

ESPECIALLY Kelly Kapowski. One of the hottest TV Babes ever, and she’s still hot.

by xfreekx on Dec 7, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

She didn't have shit on Lisa

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Man I got Lisa at three. 1.Kelly, 2.Jessie, 3.Lisa, 3a.Tori

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 7, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Tori shouldn't even be mentioned

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Zack and Slater fucked her. You know who wanted Lisa?…Screetch, the guy nobody liked and everyone thought was weird. Just saying…

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 7, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d put Ms. Bliss before Tori. Good god.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

People reallllllly long for PRIDE, don't they?

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

like a kola bear longs for eucalyptus leaves.

:-(

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 2:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

You’ve never seen an SRC event have you?

by fitefan on Dec 7, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Fans are too emotional about this issue

Judging can be fix and needs to be improved, but it’s not broken. One or two bad decisions every 3 or 4 months is an indicator that judges are human. You can’t fix human.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 11:47 AM EST reply actions  

You can't fix human

But you can improve it.

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Which is why I'm all for judge evaluation

I’ve written about it a few times

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
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Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Too emotional? It isn’t broken, it’s simply interpreted incorrectly by a lot of judges. The point system is fine, the criteria can work. I’d be emotional too if I was a fighter and got continually screwed out of decisions.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Fighters take it better than the fans do

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
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Follow me on Twitter
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

This is why you have 3 judges though, to account for human error. There are a lot more than one or 2 bad decisions every 3 or 4 months. There’s just a failsafe – 2 judges that interpret correctly. TWO judges fucking up might only happen every so often, but to me that just makes it worth looking at even more.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, there were probably two to three this weekend.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Dec 7, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

You get three or four a month and that’s not counting the fights that decide themselves. We don’t know how judges score fights that end in a KO\sub. I think we’d see even more bad judging if those cards were disclosed to the public.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Dec 7, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed

An important point to consider. I wonder if AC’s review this sort of stuff?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

They are disclosed

MMADecisions.com

But in everyone’s rantings, no one actually goes through the fights and picks out the errant judges and makes a report.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
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Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, you mean the finished fights' cards.

Some are released, some are not

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
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Follow me on Twitter
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Lesnar/Carwin

2 judges gave Carwin a 10-9, 1 judge a 10-8

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

That is fucking sad.

That is a 10-8 round by definition.

by Riney on Dec 7, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I would have to

re watch the round. From memory, I wouldn’t have objected to a 10-7, but for me, Lesanr getting back to his feet by the end of the round makes a 10-8 score in my book.

by Riney on Dec 7, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

No way in hell that is a 10-7

That’s ludicrous.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

giving lesnar 7 points for being pounded on for 5 mins is more than fair.

herb dean or big john more than likely would have stopped the fight.
also that second round sub was awesome.

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by the-gentle-way on Dec 8, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't 5 minutes

It wasn’t even 3 minutes.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 8, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

It was clear that Brock wasn’t anywhere near being “finished” since he popped right up when he had the chance. He also got up and controlled the last minute plus in the fight.

I could see giving it a 10-9.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

controlled??/

i have heard you say this about different fights and fighters.
define “fight control” please ?

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Dec 8, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

He pushed Carwin against the fence

That’s called octagon control. He controled where the fight was.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 8, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Judging is like majority decoding

p = probability constant of “correct” decision
q = probability constant of “incorrect” decision.

Since there are only two possible outcomes, q is (1 – p)

So say there are two fighters A and B. It ends in a decision but everyone’s pretty sure fighter A won. The probability that Fighter A wins is the probability of the following judgements coming in from the three judges: AAA, AAB, ABA, BAA.

So that’s the chance of three correct individual judgements == p * p * p == p^3
and the chance of two correct == p*p*q + p*q*p + q*p*p == 3*(p^2)*q

So we have (p^3)+3*(p^2)*q as the probability of a correct decision, assuming the chance of a correct decision for each individual judge is the same.

So lets say individual judge gets it right… 90% of the time. Now that’s a pretty big margin there — it’s assuming that a given judge gets 1 out of 10 fights wrong. With three judges, we should get the correct judgement (.9^3)+3*(.9^3)*.1 == 97.2% of the time. Is this in order with what we’ve been experiencing? I don’t know.

by Pyrgz Krum on Dec 7, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I like your style... but I hate numbers so I will trust your math.

Should have put a NSFW warning on here just in case Fagan rolls into the thread.

This would probably give him a boner.

by truck on Dec 7, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say so. Think about how many events there are

And we can just limit it to UFC, STrikeforce, Bellator.

How many bad decisions? Less than 15

How many fights? Over 400 fights

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You're gonna have a human judge see a fight one way

They are human. What you look for is not ONE instance, but a PATTERN.

A pattern of bad scores.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Uh, yeah. Obviously. But that’s not the point you were making. You’re saying it needs to be fixed, but it doesn’t happen very often. Very different point.

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by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

they shouldnt be getting decisions so horrible wrong though

this isnt like baseball where you need to make a split second call, so that umpire anaology kizer made is way off

the only way you could have given garcia the win is if you were entirely incompetant as a judge and thats the truth. other somewhat controversial decisions from the past were at least justifiable like forrest v rampage, edgar v penn I, machida vs rampage and even shogun vs machida. these decisions are gonna keep happening and its expected, when a fights razor close people are gonna have differing opinions on it

but other decisions like garcia vs phan, imada vs curran, beebe vs easton, and bisping vs hammill are completely unjustifiable and show a complete lack of comptence among judges and thats something that cannot be tollerated

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by milk72 on Dec 7, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You forgot to throw in Dunham vs Sherk and the two Frausto fights against Aguilar and Fujii.

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by chrisbboy82 on Dec 7, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It actually is a quick decision

You don’t get to keep the card. You put your score on for each round and turn it in.

So you’ve named 5 or 6 bad decisions, one that took place 4 years ago. Bad decisions HAPPEN.

Look at criminal courts. People are STILL crying about OJ.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

You can’t compare a court case to judging an MMA fight. AT ALL.

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by Tim Burke on Dec 7, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm comparing HUMAN judgment to HUMAN judgment

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

We need 12 judges at each fight, and they must come to an agreement on who won. If they cannot, then it is a draw.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Dec 8, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Each corner should give an opening and closing argument as for why thier fighter won

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 8, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the thing is

to me and u whenever we watch a fight it is generally very obvious who won if it goes to a decision

all of us here are pretty educated in the fight game and basically agree 90% of the time. look at every BE liveblog, at the end of every round countless people score the fight and the majority of the time are in complete agreement unless the fights razor close like one of the ones i named above

the problem with the judges is that its generally the same people giving these ridiculous decisions and when they turn them in literally nobody agrees with them. 99.9% of mma fans know that leonard garcia lost on saturday but 2 judges whose job is to score the fight didnt see it that way. its an incompetant decision that comes from not having accurate knowledge of mma and simply not being a fan.

the judges should be more qualified to score fights than the average fan, and they should be completely well versed in every single aspect of mma since its their fucking job to do it. they shouldnt be a bunch of old boxing judges who are tight with the commisioner and who think that leg kicks dont fucking hurt anyone. thats completely unexcusable

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by milk72 on Dec 7, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

the worst part of the Phan v. Garcia decision

was that you can’t even attribute it to old boxing judges not understanding the significance of kicks, takedowns and submission attempts. It was just like a horrible boxing decision that rewards worthless but powerfully-thrown punches over accurate and effective punches.

 In general, milk72 is right. Hopefully as the sport progresses, judges will gain more experience and these bad decisions will become less frequent.

by Jay Smith on Dec 7, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

If “fans are too emotional about this issue,” then should MMA fans not be? That line implies that we shouldn’t do anything about it and just let decisions like this slide.

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by chrisbboy82 on Dec 7, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

People are emotional about things they care about.

Clearly the answer is to stop giving a damn about MMA. Duh.

by Cunny on Dec 7, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

What I mean abuot emotional is that people aren't using logic and reason.

I wrote about Rogan being emotional when responding to Bob Reilly.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 7, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

when he isn't using slurs

rogan’s “emotional” speaking is pretty reasonable. what did he say that was wrong?

by kellly on Dec 8, 2010 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

TUF Finale speech wasn't reasonable IMO

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 8, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Decisions is one thing, insanely stupid scorecards regardless of result is another

One judge gave Shalorus all 3 rounds against Varner.

Someone scored it 29-28 Griffin against Dunham.

Any Leonard Garcia fight.

Etc.

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No GSP will just have to finish Koscheck.

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Shit... I got some bets to change....

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by jemaleddin on Dec 7, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope they are

If it leads to mma judging reform. Kisser is ultimately responsible for NSAC judging, so he needs to address the obvious problem.

And what is Kizer going to do anyway, not sanction UFC events?

by Anton Chigurh on Dec 7, 2010 12:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I hope they are

If it leads to mma judging reform. Kizer is ultimately responsible for NSAC judging, so he needs to address the obvious problem.

And what is Kizer going to do anyway, not sanction UFC events?

by Anton Chigurh on Dec 7, 2010 12:19 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

*sigh*

If only the MMA Community as a whole could get together and create a judging criteria strictly for our sport.

I’d stay locked up for days, Founding Fathers style, until we had something solid.

VI68IX

by rkilla on Dec 7, 2010 12:21 PM EST reply actions  

If you were locked up...

it would probably be in my basement.

by truck on Dec 7, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

[pause]

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by Damon O. on Dec 7, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Kinky.

I suffer from IBS, otherwise known as "Influx of Billick Syndrome".

by SSreporters on Dec 7, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

well...

Looks like I need to bring my samurai sword

VI68IX

by rkilla on Dec 7, 2010 4:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'm gonna suggest what a well respected member of this community has suggested

And say that maybe the NSAC steps out in front of a bus. Start from the bottom up

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by II SMASH II on Dec 7, 2010 12:44 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

It's true that MMA is more complicated than boxing to score...

but what happened in the Phan v. Garcia fight is similar to the most common mistake in boxing scoring. Inexperienced judges don’t understand the difference between wild arm swinging and effective striking. Even though Garcia’s punches weren’t landing or at all effective, he was given rounds.

The chance for definitive error is much higher in 3-round MMA fights. In a 10 or 12-round boxing match, there is room for an incorrectly-scored round that ultimately doesn’t affect the outcome of the fight.

Finally, in boxing, a majority of states have their own commissions and own judges. There are some states with less-frequent important fights (e.g. Florida) that have notorious reputations for horrible decisions. Judges in Montreal have a notorious reputation for inexplicable decisions favoring hometown fighters. Therefore, it makes sense that the UFC would want to bring some of its more experienced NSAC-certified judges for the fight, even if they have been making mistakes.

by Jay Smith on Dec 7, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions  

That's a big problem with MMA.

People who couldn’t make it in boxing come here. Look at Franklin McNeil and how much his analyses suck.
So you get the failure in your specialist area combined with ignorance of every other aspect of the game.

by Cunny on Dec 7, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Tony Weeks has a history of bad judging. He scored the Evan Dunham – Tyson Griffin fight 29-28 for Tyson Griffin. He scored the Jeremy Stephens vs. Sam Stout fight 29-28 for Sam Stout. He scored the Karin Darabedyan vs. Rob McCullough fight 30-27 for Razor Rob. He scored the Carmello Marrero vs. Cheick Kongo fight 29-28 for Kongo. He scored the Brad Imes vs. Rashad Evans fight 29-28 for Brad Imes.

Turning in a bad score card is nothing new for Mr. Weeks.

"Everytime I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out of their ass!"

by Brian Mayes on Dec 7, 2010 6:34 PM EST reply actions  

If Joe really wanted to help – y’know, actually do something instead of just posting rants on UG etc – he could start petitioning fans to get involved in judging. Since there are, according to him, hordes of fans who could do better job than the AC-appointed judges, why not start making noise about getting them to apply to become judges? Of course, there’s no guarantee athletic commissions would take them, but there’s always the chance some of them would actually get the job. Even if it only resulted in a handful of interested, motivated judges who like the sport and want to see it flourish, we’d still be better off than we are today. I do believe that if somebody like Joe Rogan (a huge part of he public face of UFC) were to start campaigning for that, he might get takers.

Of course, that would probably mean some actual effort on his part…

I don't know much - but I know that I don't.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 7, 2010 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

"some actual effort on his part"

The notion that verbal protest is bad or meaningless without a token “show of effort” (whatever the fuck that means), is preposterous.

Look at the Op-Ed section of your newspaper. In mine, there is an article criticizing the city’s waste management. Do you honestly expect to find the writer spelunking in the sewers, replacing pipes?

If yes, you need to realign your expectations.

by kellly on Dec 8, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

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