Josh Koscheck vs Team Takedown: Two Ways to Develop NCAA Talent Into UFC Stars
It's become a commonplace that wrestling is the best possible base for a career in MMA. The ability to determine where the fight takes place -- standing or on the ground -- is a huge advantage. If a wrestler runs into a kickboxer he takes him down and beats him up or submits him on the ground. If a wrestler runs into a submission wizard, he beats up standing.
NCAA national champs from Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman in the early days to Brock Lesnar more recently have sauntered into the UFC and taken home heavyweight championship gold. If you weren't watching carefully, you'd swear they made it look easy.
Josh Koscheck is another NCAA division 1 national champ in wrestling. He'll face welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre on Saturday at UFC 124 for the title.
Seems like it would be a sure thing to round up a few top tier NCAA wrestlers, arrange for their living and training expenses and rake in the dough when they inevitably ascend to the top of the UFC heap.
That's what the entrepreneurs behind Team Takedown thought when they signed up NCAA champs Johny Hendricks, Jake Rosholt and top contender Shane Roller to some unique management deals. From MMA Junkie:
Team Takedown took root in March 2007 when it signed collegiate wrestling standouts Jake Rosholt, Johny Hendricks and Shane Roller to seven-year management deals. In a model unique to MMA, team members earn a salary and have their living and training expenses paid in exchange for half of their fight earnings. It costs about $450,000 per year to support each fighter, according to Erhardt.
...
Erhardt said, theoretically, the company needs just one of its fighters to make it to the UFC's upper echelons in order to be profitable."Our hopes and our projections are starting to come around now, where the guys are going to start making enough money where they're paying for themselves and paying back to Team Takedown so that we can add on some younger guys," he said. "We're going to add on some really solid wrestlers in the future.
"There's a couple more investors, so we're really going to try to up the size of Team Takedown."
So far success is remaining just out of reach for Team Takedown. Rosholt washed out of the UFC and just lost to Matt Horwich in Tulsa last month. Shane Roller lost a WEC title eliminator bout to Anthony Pettis at WEC 50. Johny Hendricks was the one on his way, until he dropped a close decision to Rick Story at the Ultimate Fighter 12 Finale last Saturday.
BE contributor thisredengine wrote a post about Rosholt's career in which he takes a dim view of the Team Takedown model:
Jake Rosholt is considered one of the best wrestlers to enter MMA, winning the NCAA D1 championships in his Freshman, Junior, and Senior years at OSU. He was a 4x All American and in his Sophomore year, he won the Big 12 championships. Needless to say, his wrestling pedigree is phenomenal. He went 4-0 fighting in smaller shows in Oklahoma before his management received a call from the Zuffa offices. Initially they wanted him to be a cast member of the Ultimate Fighter, as his overall marketability would have increased from the exposure on Spike TV. His management team decides to forgo the opportunity and instead signed a very odd deal with the WEC to fight in their Middleweight Division. Jake's deal required the WEC to book him on the televised portion of the card, which isn't the norm for prospects. Jake had one fight in the WEC against a Hawaiian fighter named Nissen Osterneck. During this fight Jake had difficulty dealing with Osterneck's stand up and was only able to win after getting the takedown and getting the TKO stoppage. This fight should have been where his management saw that Jake was not ready for the WEC. Unfortunately, when the Zuffa dissolved the WEC MW division, Jake's contract was transferred to the UFC.
The UFC contract had the same "televised bout" condition which meant that Joe Silva had to bring Jake along faster than he normally would with a highly touted prospect. His first fight in the UFC was supposed to be against Alessio Sakara, who is notorious for having horrific takedown defense. Unfortunately, Sakara withdrew due to injury and Jake faced Dan Miller instead. Honestly, who at Team Takedown thought this was a good idea? Dan Miller is the former IFL champion who is one of the most well rounded fighters in the Middleweight Division. Why would you accept a fight against him for your most promising fighter's SIXTH fight?! I look at this booking by the UFC as a way to show the Team Takedown management that if you want special considerations in contracts, you better deliver when offered fights.
Continuing the trend of throwing Jake to the sharks, Joe Silva booked his next fight against TUF1 vet and fan favorite Chris Leben. Chris Leben was returning from a suspension from testing positive for steroids in his fight against Michael Bisping and fans expected fireworks. Unfortunately Leben, who has under-rated takedown defense, was unable to stop Rosholt's takedown in the third round and was put to sleep with an arm-triangle choke. He was then matched up with TUF 3 winner Kendal Grove at UFC 106 in a fight many considered to be Grove's last chance to fight in the UFC. Jake was able to get an early takedown but dove into a triangle choke. The UFC management decided to cut ties with the OSU wrestler after going 1-2 in the organization with a relatively high paying contract the required the organization air his bouts.
You might say that there's really not that big a difference between Josh Koscheck's relationship to the American Kickboxing Academy and the Team Takedown approach. AKA has a hand in every aspect of Koscheck's career, from his training to his sponsorship deals But unlike Team Takedown, they don't pay his living expenses and take their money as a percentage of his winnings rather than taking the whole thing.
On the career side you could say that the Team Takedown guys (with the exception of Rosholt) aren't doing any worse than Koscheck at a comparable point in his career. His early losses to Diego Sanchez on The Ultimate Fighter and Drew Fickett at Ultimate Fight Night 2 certainly presented serious speed bumps on his road to the title.
But something tells me that the Team Takedown formula won't prove as successful in the long run as AKA's more traditional approach to MMA management, training and career development.
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motherfucker
hmmm lets see, shit i have no idea who he should fight, pellegrino? stevensen? diego back at 155? all those seem like large dropoffs in talent and ranking though from florian
a miracle situation would be dana buying out bellator 2m (unlikely to ever happen) and throwing alvarez right into the mix.
sometimes i wish little miracles like that could happen though
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
thats not the problem
the problem is who? id be a sucker for a sherk rematch too to be honest
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
guillard signed to fight dunham
Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.
by Austin Martin on Dec 6, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think he’s saying that because it has a bit of an abrupt ending. I thought it was going to go into more detail originally as well.
http://www.instrength.com
I also wrote a piece about Jake Rosholt if anyone wants to go searching in the archives
I discuss how poor his management is.
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remember that
u were very very critical of team takedown as i remember
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
Yep...and I think that I was very accurate in how they handle fighters.
When you need to recoup expenses by taking the whole fight purse, you don’t make the best decisions for the fighter, you are looking out for your own interests.
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Seems like a risky business proposition. If we are to believe the 450k number, that means they are going to spend 3.15 million for each fighter, and I think it will be hard for a fighter to make that amount in the first 7 years of their career.
If it was going to work, i think the group they tried it with would be the best bet. The opportunities for fighters are pretty good, and several of them came/are close to making a run towards the top of UFC cards, but as time goes on, and people get better at wrestling and the sport continues to grow, it’s going to take more time to get from NCAA wrestling champ to the top of a UFC card.
I would be interested to see what the reaction from the fighters would be if/when one of them gets to the point where they are paying in more than they have taken out.
If it’s just a bunch of wrestlers training together, how do they prepare for someone with a different style?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 6, 2010 6:37 PM EST reply actions
I don’t know how they operate now, but when they started up part of the idea was that the managers/investors set them up with top notch coaches from all disciplines, and got them sparring time at major Vegas gyms. This was shown on the Tapout episode that featured one of them (or two? I forget). They’ve been with Laimon for BJJ since day one, I think, but I don’t know who they have worked with on striking.
Could explain how Rosholt has worst sub defense than Chael
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they've got Marc Laimon of Cobra Kai Jui Jitsu
training them on submissions. Not sure what they’re doing for striking.
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hendricks has the same boxing coach as randy and forrest.
Black dude that was on the tito vs. Forrest count down. I forget his name.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 7, 2010 12:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ron Fraiser.
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by Matthew Roth on Dec 7, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Team Takedown is based out of Las Vegas at Cobra Kai
So they aren’t just wrestling. This is why Roller and Hendricks are doing well on the grappling scene as well. The issue is that due to the deals they set up with these guys, you have fighters pushed too quick in hopes of recouping expenses.
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Hah, no shit...
my home town during high school. If I was more interested in any of their fighters I might actually pay them a visit this xmas as I visit the family.
wrestling sucks
Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.
by Austin Martin on Dec 6, 2010 7:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’m having a hard time seeing how the $450k a year is an accurate number. If they are taking half the fighter’s earnings the fighter would have to average making $900k a year for the first seven years of their career for them to break even. That just don’t seem very realistic for every fighter they sign to be able to do that.
Just BE.
they're on the same model as the old music industry
they’re planning to recoup on the back of the break out star. One UFC champ and they’ll recoup everything and more.
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But in the meantime, they are destroying the careers of their current stable of fighters
See having Jake Rosholt’s return fight against Matt Horwich. That’s ridiculous.
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They aren't destroying careers, in my opinion...maybe their win/loss records, but they seem to be paying them well.
I would be willing to bet that Rosholt has earned more from his Salary than most of his recent competition.
I don’t see how it’s profitable, but I bet there are plenty of fighters who’d be up for that scenario, especially young ones.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Sorry let me define ruining careers...
When your return fight from a serious injury after months off is Matt Horwich who is a legitimate fighter and not some easy tune up fight, your managers may not be looking out for your best interest as a young fighter. They want the biggest return on their investment which means big money fights aka more difficult fights. And it may be soon where they cut their losses and drop him.
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How much do you think GSP is worth per year?
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
A safe estimate?
Probably about $10 million with sponsorships and PPV cut.
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How much do you think we was worth 3 years ago?
I think GSP and Anderson Silva are anomalies, as far as their longevity as Champ.
Assuming Hendricks gets to Diego Sanchez’ level Q rating….will his sponsors break even then?
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Team Takedown must get all the sponsorship money, fight purses, bonuses and appearance fees
Otherwise, they have no chance to recoup their investment. It would seem to be a stretch even if Roller, Rosholt and Hendricks added up to 450K per year, but if they each cost that much, the must be breaking legs for bookies to make ends meet.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
The model for team takedown
Is Housing, monthly salary, and training/food paid for. So it’s not exactly a 450k check to each fighter.
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Does Team Takedown cover medical costs or provide an insurance option?
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Dec 6, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know to be honest...but it's not a check for 450k
I know there was a similar model with the MTX guys like Bader and Dolloway where housing was paid for.
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I agree it is nowhere near 450k Team Takedown just wants to bill out at 450k a year per fighter
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Dec 6, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
am i missing something?
how could they possibly recoup that 450k for each fighter? if i read it right, they get HALF of the fight earnings. Even with sponsors and 10 wins a year these guys arent making 900k. they are probably making 32k or something per fight, even with decent sponsorships it doesnt add up to anywhere near 900lk. There are only a HANDFUL of fighters, in their primes making that kinda money. This seems off.
by jasonschwartzman on Dec 6, 2010 8:39 PM EST reply actions
Two things...
You were the bomb in Rushmore.
2. If they are following the music industry model which it seems they are, then some expenses are going to taking hte fighter out for dinner and to legal fees and to whatever bullshit other ways you can tack on to keep people in the hole.
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thx. i suggest The Darjeeling Limited this holiday season.
i get that, tacking up the expenses in other spots, but its still 450k they are spending. they must really be banking on a GSP coming out of that mix…or they have a group of naive angel investors who were sold on the idea.
by jasonschwartzman on Dec 6, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Rushmore was horseshit.
You cant stop him, you can only hope to contain him. -- Random Person
Another one bits the dust. -- Myself
by Tokyo Sandblaster on Dec 6, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think the Rosholt analogy's are a little premature.
Jake Rosholt keeps being used as an example of “what not to do”, but the man was only cut a little over a year ago. He’s fought twice since, and gone 1-1 in that period.
If Jake takes a step down in competition, really works on his abilities there’s absolutely no reason why Rosholt can’t make another run at the UFC. With his abilities he already has a head start. He’s just not ready for guys like Matt Horwich (His latest fight), Dan Miller & Kendall Grove.
A far better example of what not to do with a prospect is Yoon Dong-Sik. The Donger has turned into a good fighter, but his record sucks, and he’s taken so much abuse it’s questionable how much longer he’ll be able to go as a fighter. Had he been brought along slower, we might be talking about Donger as a top fighter.
Michihiro Omigawa’s another example. The difference between Omigawa & Donger is Omigawa hates people and finally has a winning record based solely on that hate.
I can’t help but call shenanigans. I could see 450 combined, just north of 100K individually, unless these guys are flying first class internationally on the weekly basis, I dont see that being an accurate number.
"I’m anti-stalling, not anti-wrestling." - lowellthehammer
It's not a 450k check each
They could count that towards contract negotiations and other expenses.
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by Matthew Roth on Dec 6, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I get that. I’m just saying, at their level, I don’t think they are rendering 450 k in services, and I’m sure the fighters aren’t bringing in too big a paycheck. I’m just trying to break it down in my mind.
Even if you give the guys 100k a piece take home (which is about the limit in my mind), I doubt the other expenses and services rendered would equal another 100k, let alone 350, a piece.
"I’m anti-stalling, not anti-wrestling." - lowellthehammer
i dunno
that sounds like a very aggressive billing policy for the training facility and coaching etc. If they’re doing the books the way record companies or publishers do they’ll charge each figher Marc Laimon’s full fee, full cost of the gym, etc. The economies of scale only work in favor of the bookkeeper, not the “talent”.
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I really like all the Team Takedown guys, it sucks to see them sort plateau lately. I still think they have a ton of potential if they can stay in the sport and keep improving.
If those annual expense figures are correct, it’s hard to imagine this business model working. Maybe they can enter into more conventional contracts if the Team Takedown thing plays out.
I don’t think Team Takedown is a failed business model yet. Hendricks, and Roller could rebound, and they signed Jared Rosolt this summer, a 2 or 3 time All-American HW in college. Now, I think they have to be careful in picking anyone they want to bring in, not every great wrestler can come over and be great at MMA.
It's not about who they bring in...its how they bring them along.
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by Matthew Roth on Dec 7, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
I think it is a combination of picking the right guys, and bringing them along properly. Hendricks has been brought up right IMO. I think he is still 2 or 3 wins away from fighting top 10 guys consistently. Rosholt was mis-managed terribly. His contract that said he had to be on TV was his downfall, because he was moved in against better guys than he should have been early on.
I think Hendricks
is going to have to find a way to make it to LW like Maynard does – he is just too small at WW. IIRC, he wrestled at 165.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 7, 2010 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Interbox uses a similar model
And they manage excellent boxers like Lucian Bute and have done so for a bunch of other fighters in the past (Eric Lucas fought some of the best in his time for example.) The big difference is that they are also promoters, so they can bring their guys slowly to maturity by getting them winnable fights.
It's similar to the Venture Capitalists in the IT industry
The VC’s will throw a lot of money (many millions of dollars) into multiple companies hoping that one of them will hit it big. If the big one hits, they recoups potentially 100’s of millions.
I come from IT so this is what I saw. I’m drawing a parallel to MMA here. If the investment per fighter is $450K/yr and they have 10 fighters under contract, that’s $4.5M/yr. If they get a GSP, who may get $10M/yr in revenues and they get half, well then that’s $5M/yr.
OK, having run the numbers this makes no sense. Even if they do hit the home run (long shot) and land the next GSP, even that doesn’t cover expenses.
Clearly this article is missing data. It just doesn’t add up.
Or, perhaps more likely
Team Takedown gave deliberately misleading figures for their own reasons.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 8, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions

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