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Remembering Chuck Liddell: The Highs and the Lows of a Hall of Fame Career

via UFC.com

Portions of this article were previously published by Bloody Elbow after Liddell's final fight at UFC 115.

Let's get the most basic points out of the way up front.  Chuck Liddell is a legend. If you were starting a MMA Hall of Fame, Liddell would likely be a first ballot inductee. When Zuffa first got onto national television with The Ultimate Fighter, the sport needed a star to capture the throngs of new fans attracted by the violent game of human chess in the Octagon. Liddell was that star, replacing Ken Shamrock as the new sport's most popular and famous athlete.

Liddell was everywhere: the cover of ESPN: The Magazine, a cameo on Entourage, appearances (we'll get to this later) on local news broadcasts. Not only was he the mohawked perpetrator of incredible violence, he also provided a built in counter point to critics everywhere.  "See this man?' Dana White could ask a skeptical reporter.  'He's an accountant.'

For all of his public relations punch, Liddell was no paper champion.  He was the real deal in the cage, presenting a unique challenge to opponents. He was a wrestler who could punch. Jiu Jitsu aces like Murillo Bustmante couldn't control him on the ground and neither could wrestlers like Tito Ortiz. With Liddell leading the way, "Sprawl and Brawl" became a legitimate and incredibly effective fighting strategy.

You could make a valid case that from 2005-2006 Liddell was the best fighter in the world.  It's a short window, shortened by lifestyle and effort issues, making "The Iceman" a tantalizing what might have been.

Star-divide

During the middle of Chuck's reign on top of the sport, the whispers began. If there was a party on the West coast, you were likely to see Chuck Liddell there. People began to talk openly about his problems after a bizarre performance in Dallas hyping the movie 300. It was a lifestyle that was clearly affecting his game in the cage. Liddell was distracted. The poster boy for a growing sport came to the cage out of shape, often sporting a beer belly that became a signature part of his appearance.

For Liddell, who regularly went out to nightclubs until the break of dawn on fight week, there was little in the way of critique from the MMA media. The Dallas interview led the Nevada State Athletic Commission to test Liddell for drugs.  He passed with flying colors, although most recreational drugs would have long been out of his system anyway. Trainer John Hackleman told Sherdog.com that Liddell had likely been using Nyquill to sleep. Later he changed his story to include prescription sleep medication.  Former manager Dana White was concerned enough to step in:

"That was a whole nother story! I wouldn’t say that was an intervention either," White said about Liddell’s "Good Morning Texas" appearance. "I just stepped in and said, ‘What are you doing and who let you go on TV that morning? They need to be hung from the streetlight and beat like a piñata, whoever let you go on that show.’"

Two months after this debacle, Liddell was unceremoniously dropped to the canvas by a Quinton Jackson right hand. Little did we know at the time, but Liddell's career as a top fighter was over that day.  Losses piled up, but the lifestyle stayed the same.Liddell lost a decision to the unheralded Keith Jardine and then was knocked unconscious by Jardine's teammate Rashad Evans in Atlanta.

What's troubling about Liddell's fall from the top of the sport is the nonchalance that surrounded it. Liddell continued to employ the same strategies and increasingly savvy opponents knew exactly what he was going to do. As all star training camps became en vogue, Liddell stayed in his comfort zone, training with Hackleman in California at the famous Pit. Before traveling to Pride to fight in the 2003 Grand Prix, White sent Liddell to train in Las Vegas, importing some of the top fighters in the game to help get Liddell ready, a team of training partners that included Phil Baroni, Matt Hughes and Jay Hieron. Liddell hated the training camp, and after losing to Jackson, never went back to preparing with top level fighters.

The loyalty is commendable, but sometimes personal relationships have to give way in the fight game. Liddell couldn't bring himself to cut ties with the camp that helped make him the fighter he had become, and the result was stagnation. Hackleman's gym has produced no other top tier fighters-when Chuck's natural gifts were no longer enough to win, his team couldn't help him devise a new gameplan or come to the cage with new skills in tow. The Liddell who fought Rich Franklin at UFC 115 was the same fighter who took on Vernon White at UFC 49 back in 2004. The difference? In 2004 Chuck could push forward and take a shot to give one. By 2010, the same kind of punches put him to sleep.

Liddell is a legend and his contributions to the sport have helped propel MMA into the stratusphere. But, in the cage, Liddell was never the fighter he might have been. The short list of the very best includes names like Royce, Shamrock, Fedor, and GSP- it could have included "the Iceman" too, but the pull of the fast life was a little too strong, he stayed out a little too late, partied a little too hard. It's the difference between being a famous fighter and being an all-time great fighter. Liddell walked that line for as long as he could, eventually becoming MMA's first victim of the limelight.

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Frankly

I thought Chuck Liddell looked really great against Rich Franklin, his chin is just gone at this point.

by Patrick John McGreevy on Dec 29, 2010 8:27 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

He did.

Easily the best Chuck seen since he first won the title and became a one-dimensional headhunter. I was more disappointed by his performance against Shogun, where he supposedly tightened up his game after Rashad murdered him. Instead we saw the same flat-footed stance, hands at his waist (or even lower), confused at why he couldn’t kick or follow Shogun effectively off his heels, or how that KO hook slipped through his non-existent guard.

For my money, the best Liddell fight was the second of his career against Pele. He displayed well-rounded skills; kicked a little, punched a little more, and really used his wrestling shot and top game to neutralize a fighter with better striking and submission skill. He also displayed that excellent chin, getting up from two just absolutely devastating Pele head kicks, and showed the power he had in his right overhand.

Chuck, you will be missed.

by gzl5000 on Dec 29, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Indeed. Which is why it’s so disappointing he waited so long to fix the technical flaws in his game. Flat-footedness hurt him against Jardine and Mezger, low hands (and especially dropping the other while punching) hurt him against Mezger, Overeem, Rampage (2x), Rashad and Shogun. If he’d gone to a different training camp, one that didn’t let him drop his hands in between punching combinations, maybe his chin would have lasted longer.

by gzl5000 on Dec 29, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I should say,

“best” because it best displayed all of Chuck’s skills and characteristics that made him a great fighter against another great fighter, and had some great excitement to go with it.

by gzl5000 on Dec 29, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

He looked better than his previous fights

But a few extra kicks doesn’t make him a new fighter. He was the same old Chuck. Just slimmer.

by pud333 on Dec 29, 2010 8:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He was ten seconds away from winning that fight

Any doctor was going to notice Rich’s broken arm and stop the fight in between rounds.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

And he also would've won the fight if he pulled the trigger sooner.

If you look at it inversely, Chuck Liddell couldn’t finish off a guy with one working arm.

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by McKinley B. Noble on Dec 29, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, but he broke the other arm. I’m pretty sure he lost that fight trying to pull the trigger when the clapper went off.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Franklins excellent timing and perfect placement of that right hand punch on Chucks kisser might have helped too

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

beating franklin

would not have been impressive. Chucks chin was still gone and he still thought all he needed was his right hand. throwing a few kicks is nowhere near what he would need to continue to compete with the constantly evolving top level fighters in his division. he made his mark in the sport and even though i am not a fan, that mark will remain

by phantom5691 on Dec 30, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Great piece John

Pretty fair and balanced take on his career.

"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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by Worldisart on Dec 29, 2010 8:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I disagree wit the last statement.

Shogun had just won the MW GP, Wandy was still champ, and Fedor had just dominated the 2nd best in his weight clas where his opponent was strongest at.

by Menime on Dec 29, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent piece.

Chuck certainly is a legend, but one of the all time greats? Maybe not.

Thanks for the memories Chuck.

by pud333 on Dec 29, 2010 8:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

he is absolutely one of the all time greats. GOAT he is not, but he is would be in my top 10 of all time greats

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 29, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Is legend different to all time great?

like Noah’sArk said, he is not GOAT but i would still consider him in the all time great category

by Cronulla on Dec 29, 2010 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It is, IMO. All time great, to me, are guys like Fedor and GSP – guys that show up to fight all the time and who live up to their potential, beating all types of fighters, etc. Chuck’s biggest threat was himself, which he couldn’t overcome. (Well, that and Rampage). For some reason, to me, Chuck just lacked that intangible piece that would have pushed him over the edge. He’s right there. He’s right where Penn is right now, IMO. Great, but not one of the greatest.

by pud333 on Dec 29, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

But Chuck did beat all kinds of fighters (strikers, grapplers, wrestlers), even if he didn’t have a longer run than he could have had he not partied so much, he still had a great run. Guys like Fedor and GSP are guys that will be debated when it comes to who was the GOAT. That shouldn’t be confused with an “all time great”, which Chuck is

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 29, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Shogun’s run during that time was pretty comparable, and Chuck, during his title run, was running over wrestlers/grapplers for the most part. I give him props for beating Vitor, but he wasn’t really beating dangerous strikers. Yeah, he beat Overeem in PRIDE, but back then, it wasn’t like Overeem was a world beater. I think Chuck was on the cusp. I still hold Rampage’s two wins over Chuck against him.

by pud333 on Dec 30, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

For me, Chuck’s wins over Randy is what seals it for me

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 30, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then.

by pud333 on Dec 30, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Indeed. There’s definitely cases for both men, as they are both great

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 30, 2010 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Why is this whole "he didn't beat dangerous strikers"

held against Chuck? Where are all the “he didn’t beat wrestlers” criticisms against Shogun and Wand?

by David Castillo on Dec 30, 2010 2:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Probably because Wanderlei beat Henderson, Sakuraba, Arona, and Olympic Gold Medalist Yoshida – so saying he never faced dangerous grapplers would be silly?

Because Rua beat two UFC champion wrestlers as well as Arona?

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 30, 2010 8:40 AM EST up reply actions  

You missed the point

Both are empty criticisms. Who even labels fighters “wrestlers” or “strikers” these days? Randy was a well rounded mixed martial artist. That’s who Chuck beat (as was Bustamante, who is probably the most underrated fighter in the history of history). Along with Overeem (who was still very good even back then), Belfort, Mezger, Pele, etc. “He beat only wrestlers, never strikers” is truly stupid when looking at Chuck’s resume (which isn’t directed at you).

by David Castillo on Dec 30, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Chuck was a great fighter. I hate the concept that you have to tear him down to build up some guy in PRIDE you liked better. Or vice versa. That was a great time to be a fan.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 31, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Chuck's a legend

a flawed legend but not a GOAT

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by SheepleBuster on Dec 29, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I absolutely agree with you. Up until the Chuck-Tito 3. I’m just tired of that matchup, it’s stale to me

by disinferno06 on Dec 29, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Rua was still too young

Plus I think what hurt Shogun’s status at the time was the fact that he wasn’t the champ in his own division. Training partner or not, Wand was the champ, and so that meant a lot (except to Pride brass).

Chuck beating one dimensional wrestlers is a retarded criticism though (mainly because it diminishes how good Liddell’s own wrestling actually is). Randy beat Chuck on the feet the first time, so why was knocking out Randy in the rematches considered “beating one dimensional wrestlers”? Is it fair to criticize Shogun for not beating enough wrestlers? Or Wand for not beating enough grapplers? While the UFC LHW division was light on “strikers”, Pride was light on “wrestlers” during their heyday. Too difficult to say, but I always felt like, at the time, Chuck’s wins over Couture were bigger than Shogun’s wins over Arona, and Rampage.

I think Liddell’s status was hurt more than anything by the fact that his prime was in his mid-30’s. The partying certainly played a part, but not every mixed martial artist could pull a Couture and stay in peak physical shape going into their 40’s.

by David Castillo on Dec 30, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

agreed

"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."

by Broke Lesnar on Dec 30, 2010 5:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I wasent saying Chuck beating wrestlers was a criticism— the point i was making was the UFC’s LHW division ONLY had wrestlers in the division in which Liddell was perfect match-ups for liddell. Sure randy beat him once but Randy’s game is the clinch takedowns not shooting for singles or doubles and Chuck just circled and back peddled to two easy Ko’s over randy after the first fight.

While pride may not have had many wrestlers arona and rampage were both considered wrestlers and Shogun walked through both of them as well as took out strikers like overeem.

Its all a matter of opinion because they were in two different organizations. I think what hurt chuck was when he could have been the 205 kingpin tito was champ and didnt want to fight chuck. by the time that was all sorted out Shogun was running the division and chuck was beating jeremy horn.

its better to be a lion for a day than a sheep all your life

by t0dd on Dec 30, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

UM

Like didnt Chuck KO the fuck out of Babalu in UFC TWICE? Babalu being the one of the only 3 (2 if u think Machida lost in 1st fight) to beat Rua? Just saying

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

The thing with Liddell as a fighter is not just the sprawl n brawl, but that was huge. While there are habits of his that cost him like keeping his hands low and being flat-footed, there were things he did like a lot of lateral movement and utilizing a jab (early on, but later not so much). I wasn’t a huge Liddell fan, but I liked him enough. While there was still one more fight against Tito for him, a loss (which would be possible at this juncture) would be devastating.

I won't jump off the bandwagon just because you lost.

by chrisbboy82 on Dec 29, 2010 10:18 PM EST reply actions  

Hands low and being flat footed were to counter the takedowns. Some of the reason his sprawl was so effective

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s also what killed his chin and led to his downfall. You can sprawl effectively without dropping your hands or being on your heels. Plenty of examples in MMA today.

by gzl5000 on Dec 30, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Aww man the “cut and paste” blog cut and pasted itself!!! Joking, I love BE.

If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause.

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by Kneeeeee on Dec 29, 2010 10:26 PM EST reply actions  

is there ever gonna be an actual mma hall of fame the way theres one for every other sport

with a voting ballot that doesnt consist of dana white’s personal preference?

boxing has one (its a joke since sylvester stallones in it) but still its something id like to see in the sport

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 29, 2010 10:33 PM EST reply actions  

Excellent read...

Chuck would have been better served to attack the body more in his career.

by SmittytheCutman on Dec 29, 2010 10:44 PM EST reply actions  

Attacking the body is what got him KO’d against Rampage

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Dropping his left hand is what got him KO’d.

by gzl5000 on Dec 30, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

As of today, I think he’s the greatest light heavyweight of all time.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 10:57 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

2-0 against Tito Ortiz and 2-1 against Randy Couture. I’m sure you’re going to say Rua, but I don’t think he’s there yet. It’s like how I still have Hughes above GSP all time – GSP defends once or twice more and he eclipses him, but not yet. Longevity matters.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 29, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow everthing caters to UFC with you doesn't it?

There is more to MMA than UFC you know.

And by using your logic, SHogun should clearly be number one as he defeated him and the guy Chuck was never able to beat (Page).

Rua also holds more notable wins over stiffer and higher ranked competition than Chuck does.

by Menime on Dec 29, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s debatable. What isn’t debatable is that Chuck did it primarily in a drug tested environment under the Unified Rules. That matters to me when I rank historically.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That makes zero sense in response to my post. How can you rank fighters historically if you don’t have a sound foundation in the sport’s history? If you can’t even be trusted to look at the sport in 2010 without attacking or defending individual promotions in every single one of your comments?

To you, PRIDE is just another Strikeforce to attack incessantly. Only you could turn a post about Chuck Liddell into a referendum on Zuffa.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 30, 2010 8:31 AM EST up reply actions  

How is calling Chuck the greatest LHW of all time related to an individual promotion? You’re not the only one allowed to have an informed opinion, Jon. Attack my reasoning if attacking me personally ever gets boring.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 30, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Your opinion is that Chuck is the best LHW ever because he fought

primarily in a drug tested environment under the Unified Rules.

That’s a cutesy way of saying he’s the best ever because he fought in the UFC. As always, that’s the entire point of your comment – propping up the UFC because someone had the temerity to praise a PRIDE fighter.

Based on comments you’ve made and discussions I’ve seen you in, I don’t think yours is an informed opinion when it comes to historical rankings. Sorry.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 31, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

who rec’d this?

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?

by tigerlee on Dec 30, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

pretty sure he was just defending his opinion

against someone who commented on its validity. no big deal really.

"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."

by Broke Lesnar on Dec 30, 2010 5:57 AM EST up reply actions  

This is exactly what Bill Simmons criticised the mma media and many of its fans for, this pathetic elitism that shits on and shuts down the input of those who disagree with them as being narrow sighted or too new and “mainstream” to have useful input.

I know nothing of this poster and if you have some history with him that shows a strong prediliction to supporting UFC to the point where his bias destroys any useful opinion then I retract my statement, but as is, you come off as an haughty fool who disregards the opinions of others, which I suppose is somehwat fair since we don’t all have a wonderful mma Encyclopedia on sale.

I have alot of respect for Chuck and feel people in general give him the short end of the stick when comparing him to Pride era fighters. If we really want to go back and dissect the technical nuances and flaws in his striking than it’s only fair to do the same to the Pride fighters that are so often lauded. Liddell fought in a cage which heavily favors wrestling, and with rules that heavily favored wrestling which made his style not only brutally effective but quite apt and with little weakness.
In fact he could even use his own wrestling and it’s suitability to the cage when he was fighting a far superior striker, and if looking at his career as a whole, we see wins over Pele, Bustamante, Belfort, Overeem (who was on a brutal tear at the time) and Silva – and many of these were not in a cage where he could have mixed in his wrestling (a point I’ll concede is that he never really bothered except very early or very late in his career)

His fighting in Pride was not fully fair as it was under their rules and their setting, and again, if we want to go back and dissect technique, I cannot stress how many headaches I felt watching the beserker MT of the Pride days using hand strikes that made me cringe. The clinch, knees and kicks were solid but the looping hands were on par with Kos unfortunately, and any striker with a decent knowledge of boxing would have picked them apart brutally if they had the knowledge to defend their other powerful assets. I’m being fairly noncomittal since this is already a moronically long post and I doubt anyone will even see it lol, but I contest that there is a fair point to be made and a dismissive demeanor helps nobody

by Matty Euripides Castourkas on Dec 30, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I should add...

What I was getting to in my second paragraph was you’d likely also end up in a rock paper scissors match up with Pride era fighters, UFC era fighters and Chuck, where the cage and stifling wrestlers could grind out many better Pride strikers, who in turn might have beaten Lidell, although I still maintain Lidell could have used his wrestling slightly if it was in cage setting.

by Matty Euripides Castourkas on Dec 30, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh and that Silva got grinded by Ortiz in the cage, and so with equally “unfair/foreign” rules, and although I can’t say I rememeber it at all, I know Silva lost to Belfort at one point, although at this point I’d be talking out of my ass to pretend I remember how it went down :P

by Matty Euripides Castourkas on Dec 30, 2010 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Calling either promotion’s rules “unfair” is pretty silly. Fighters with a variety of styles succeeded in both promotions.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 31, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

All I'm going to say

Is Simmons shouldn’t be criticizing anybody. The dude’s lazy.

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by Neil Manich on Dec 30, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

He should absolutely criticize the "elitist" subset

They’re just like the music fans who want their bands to never go mainstream; they want to have something for themselves, which hurts the product they love.

Just because he never has to leave his house to work doesn’t mean he’s not pouring time and effort into it.

I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
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by woomikee on Dec 30, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

He doesn't even do reporting.

He writes A LOT, I’ll give you that. But on whatever subject he pleases. He’s narcisstic, and yes talented. But he’s definitely lazy.

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend

by Neil Manich on Dec 30, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

He almost never writes anything. He’s been able to segue his success into doing a podcast where he talks to his friends for an hour three times a week and writes one column. Good for him. Sorry he’s scared to write about MMA because we won’t let him get away with his lazy “takes” on the sport. Maybe next time he goes to an event he might even stay for the main event!

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 31, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

know nothing of this poster and if you have some history with him that shows a strong prediliction to supporting UFC to the point where his bias destroys any useful opinion then I retract my statement

He’s probably the most notorious UFC fan on the entire site, a guy who makes dozens of posts a day attacking perceived UFC enemies. He has developed a conspiracy theory in his mind where everyone who enjoys any other promotion’s fights is part of a grand plan to ruin his beloved UFC. So yeah, he’s not a typical poster and he doesn’t have any notion about what he’s talking about.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 31, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions  

chuck wouldn't have lasted as long in Pride...see Rampage

unified rules were better suited for Liddell, he was a great fighter for that particular system…no disrespect intended.

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?

by tigerlee on Dec 30, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s the ruleset…Chuck might’ve used his wrestling more and to greater advantage had he been able to use knees to the head on the ground. I think it’s more that the PRIDE middleweight division had several Brazilians with good leg kicks.

by gzl5000 on Dec 30, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

true, its a coulda-woulda scenario- we’ll never know for sure given we only have one fight to draw conclusions from. but the cage definitely helped Chuck’s style even if the actual rules might not have.

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?

by tigerlee on Dec 30, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Mind you,

Leg kicks are most dangerous because of the susceptibility to TDs. I started in MT and when I dabbled in mma, never took it seriously despite being a huge fan, I was amazed how many of the moves left me wiiiiiiddde open.

Look at all the beautiful Pride clinch work, that shit would never fly in a wrestling centric scene because of the incredible ability of wrestlers, Greco Romans to be exact, to clinch manhandle. It’s the reason the spider doesn’t insta own everyone like he used to with the plum clinch.

by Matty Euripides Castourkas on Dec 30, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

But the ruleset difference was exactly my point...

It favored Chuck and Pride disfavored Chuck just as vice versa was true for other Pride fighters who may have fought strong wrestlers, but never with the ruleset and cage that favored them

by Matty Euripides Castourkas on Dec 30, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Shogun holding higher and more notable wins is debatable

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 29, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

If Shogun can maintain a winning record, he could fairly be considered the Greatest LHW of All Time.

(Although I’d like to see him avenge that loss to Griffin first.)

MMA Fan Since Forrest Griffin vs. Stephan Bonnar

Twitter: @KenTheGreat

MBN's Current 5 Favorite Fighters: Nate Diaz / Chris "The Crippler" Leben / Miesha "Takedown" Tate / Shinya Aoki / Georges "Rush" St-Pierre

by McKinley B. Noble on Dec 30, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

How is it debatable?

Shoguns list of opponents is by far more impressive than Chucks. Also the way he finishes fights should be taken into account.

Shogun should be number one just by the simple fact that he has held both the MW GP belt and the UFC LHW belt.

SHogun is first and he is closely followed by Wanderlei.

by Menime on Dec 30, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

…but Chuck beat Wanderlei.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 30, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

and Shogun beat destroyed Chuck.

by Menime on Dec 30, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Either way, your ranking Shogun 1 and Wandy 2 is pretty indefensible.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 30, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Ironically,

Both Wanderlei and Chuck got destroyed far past their primes, but if you want proof of how less impressive these fighters were under different rule sets watch Tito-Silva and then watch any Couture or Lidell fight against Tito :D:D:D:

Styles make fights and styles are shaped by the ruleset and the environment, it’s the reason someone like Griffin looked the way he did against Silva.

by Matty Euripides Castourkas on Dec 30, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Chuck beating Randy twice will always be my trump card. But besides that, he’s beaten Tito, Randleman, Wandy, Vitor

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 30, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

by that logic

Chuck defeated Babalu twice by KO. Something Rua was not able to do and Rua actually lost to him. Also dont recall Chuck ever pulling out of a fight for an injury. How can you be an all time great when you haven’t defended your belt yet and are always getting knee surgery?

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Do the wins over Tito and Couture matter that much?

Randy Couture is a great fighter, but he was never the best of his era, and Tito Ortiz hasn’t won a fight since beating up what’s left of Ken Shamrock. If Chuck wanted to be the greatest LHW of All Time, he could’ve at least beaten Jardine. Losing that fight was the start of a bad slide.

MMA Fan Since Forrest Griffin vs. Stephan Bonnar

Twitter: @KenTheGreat

MBN's Current 5 Favorite Fighters: Nate Diaz / Chris "The Crippler" Leben / Miesha "Takedown" Tate / Shinya Aoki / Georges "Rush" St-Pierre

by McKinley B. Noble on Dec 30, 2010 12:25 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

And:

Three straight loses – by KO, no less – immediately after that.

MMA Fan Since Forrest Griffin vs. Stephan Bonnar

Twitter: @KenTheGreat

MBN's Current 5 Favorite Fighters: Nate Diaz / Chris "The Crippler" Leben / Miesha "Takedown" Tate / Shinya Aoki / Georges "Rush" St-Pierre

by McKinley B. Noble on Dec 30, 2010 12:32 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He didn’t beat Wanderlei. He beat a guy wearing a Wanderlei suit. Fun fight though.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 30, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

LOL.

I read somewhere that Wandy had some type of fever that night. Can anyone verify this?

by Menime on Dec 30, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I hate this. You can find a way to discredit any fighter’s wins, no matter who they are.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 30, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions  

No im not trying to discredit at all, thats why im asking.

by Menime on Dec 30, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Wandy was shot right after losing to Hendo and Cro Cop? Really?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 30, 2010 12:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Go watch those fights again.

They were pretty damn brutal KOs. Cro Cop beat the snot outta him up until that left high kick, and Hendo drop the H-bomb after Wandy was already out.

Silva had shown signs of slowing down before that as well. Watch his fights against Hunt and Arona for further proof.

by Menime on Dec 30, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah really

And you’d be crazy to say his decline started anywhere else.

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend

by Neil Manich on Dec 30, 2010 2:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Why is he "declined"?

Because he isn’t crushing cans in Japan? He came over, was too small for 205 (still beat Jardine), cut to his proper weight and beat Michael Bisping (no small feat). I don’t think he’s done.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 30, 2010 2:53 AM EST up reply actions  

You are either a UFC zealot, or bad at analyzing fights. Or both.

The “cans” argument is tiresome, unfair, and disrespectful to Japanese fighters who you are probably largely ignorant of.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 30, 2010 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

what Japanese fighter did Wandy beat that was so great other than Sakuraba?

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

There’s a pretty big gap between “great” and “can.” I suggest learning that quickly around here as we have a low tolerance for that kind of senseless stuff.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 30, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Well considering Saku was the greatest fighter in the world at the time...

He also beat Fujita, Kondo… Really the only high profile MW he didn’t beat in Pride were the Chute Boxe guys.

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend

by Neil Manich on Dec 30, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess we're just ignoring

the fact he tooled Rampage twice….

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 30, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I just think that's hard to say

When he lost to Rampage at both of his peaks.

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend

by Neil Manich on Dec 29, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Rampage was clearly his stylistic nemesis. But the only other guy with a comparable run at the top is Tito, and we all know how that worked out. If Rampage had defended against Forrest and maybe once more, he probably wins LHW of the decade from me. But he didn’t, so I give it to Chuck. You?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, Rampage avenged two losses to Wanderlei (who was hilariously small at 205), while Chuck is 1-0 against him.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I have to go Wand

Though Chuck’s my number two. I rate the wins against Sakuraba, Rampage, Arona, and Kondo pretty highly. And although Page got it back and Chuck had the win, I think they were both so far gone at the point that its not really indicative of who was the better fighter.

I agree on Rua though. He’s going to be here in after an Evans and Page defense.

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend

by Neil Manich on Dec 29, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think Chuck/Wandy was kind of the deciding fight for me. The winner of that was basically LHW champ of the last five years and Chuck won.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Wrestling uber alles, man.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

hes got a long way to go

his chin has looked pretty suspect, and it looks only a matter of time until he gets taken out

it also doesnt help that hes facing one of the most dangerous strikers at 205 next

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 30, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

But the only other guy with a comparable run at the top is Tito, and we all know how that worked out.

How did that work out? With Tito being a huge draw and everyone pocketing huge checks? With Tito winning all the time? Not sure what you mean here.

by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 30, 2010 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Um, yeah.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Dec 30, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Chuck getting beat by Rampage the first time in Pride basically showed that he was not the #1 LHW at any point, except in UFC promos.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 12:39 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

lhw was so competitive and even during 2005

if u put shogun, wandy, rampage, and chuck in a 4 man tourney and they fought it out 100 times the results woulda been pretty damn even

chuck is gonne go down as one of the greatest ever, u cant say for certain that someone was #1 and someone wasnt its like ranking nfl quarterbacks. some people have montana at 1, some have unitas, some have elway and none of those people are wrong

i personally think chuck was legitamatley the #1 lhw in the world during his title run and wish we saw him fight shogun eariler in his career

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 30, 2010 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Except that Chuck when he defended his belt 4 times between 05 and 06..

Shogun fought and won against 7 people, only interrupted by that crazy TKO broken arm against Coleman which could have ended up as an 8th victory.

I’d put Shogun as #1 LHW during that time. Beating Lil Nog, Rampage(who destroyed chuck), Overeem(who chuck also beat), Arona, Randleman, Nakamura, Diabate,

Far better competition than Babalu, Horn, Ortiz and Couture, given that there is almost twice as many people.

I agree Chuck is one of the best during this period, but I think Shogun is the best just based on the higher number of defeated opponents and that they were just as highly regarded if not more so than the people that Chuck beat; particularly Rampage Lil Nog and Arona.

Not to mention stomping Diabate was pretty awesome.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I’d throw in Kanehara too for Shogun, but that fight just depressed me cause Kanehara was just a gimme.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

sure u like shogun

thats great, i still like chuck his style of fights and the fact that he was beating the hell outta tough as nails wrestlers (which i consider the best discipline in mma) and the fact that shogun really hasnt fought a top end wrestler in his entire career. both guys have impressive resumes i just like chucks more

basically ur picking joe montana and im picking elway, noones wrong its a matter of opinion since there isnt a clear cut guy at lhw, unlike how fedor is clear cut at hw (an analogy for him would be how michael jordan is the clear cut guy in basketball)

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 30, 2010 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Beating 8 opponents vs 4 over the same period of time is not a matter of opinion.

Rampage beat the shit out of Liddell out wrestled him, outstruck him, Shogun beat the shit out of him, it’s pretty obvious who was better in this era.

Also there is no clear cut guy in basketball, Wilt Chamberlain, Pistol Pete, Kareem Abdul Jabaar, Bill Russel, it all depends on what era you look at. I personally think Bill Russell is the best, but most people argue the league is more watered down then, but 11 championships in 13 years is pretty hard to argue with.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i like chucks 4 wins over tito and randy

and the sheer domination of is title run which shogun has never had. they had a very similar strength of schedule, and yes it is a matter of opinion

when u match up their biggest wins in that era u get shoguns victories over rampage, arona and little nog

and chuck beat tito 2x and randy 2x

i like chucks big wins better and believe me i understand ur argument u make a valid point but the subject is open to debate and not everyones gonna agree

but ur wrong on bill russell, michael jordan completely dominated the NBA when there was the highest level of parity and superstars in the league, chamberlain and russell were great in their era but who else were they playing against?

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 30, 2010 1:14 AM EST up reply actions  

You are giving Chucks opponents too much credit

…while at the same time not giving Shoguns opponents enough.

especially if you consider that Rua destroyed the guy that straight up dominated Chuck in every aspect of the game (Page).

by Menime on Dec 30, 2010 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

With all due respect, don’t use MMAMath with try and validate your argument :)

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 30, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Don’t need MMAMath to know that Chuck got beat down by Rampage who was at best a mid tier fighter at the time, which makes him not the #1 LHW of all time, or even at the time.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 4:07 AM EST up reply actions  

He was so mid tier he fought for the belt right after he fought Chuck!

He was so mid tier he had only beaten some dudes named Murilo Bustamante, Igor Vovchanchyn, and Kevin Randleman in Pride!

He was so mid tier he was only 22-3 when he fought Chuck, with his losses coming against Eastman in his third fight ever, Sakuraba in his Pride debut, and Matsui via DQ.

Seriously man, that comment alone seems like some serious revisionist history. I get you liked your Pride fighters better, but diminishing Rampage, who was a legit contender at that point, is not the way to go here.

by Enmascarado on Dec 30, 2010 6:03 AM EST up reply actions  

In comparison to Chuck he was, Chuck was the champion of the UFC, Quinton was an up and comer, a contender, aka a mid-tier fighter that was not in line for a shot or even considered as top 3 in Pride.

It’s not revisionist history at all, he was not a top fighter when he fought Liddell and nobody thought he was going to win.

Bustamante lost to Liddell before Quinton.
Igor lost due to an injury in their fight.
Randleman was coming off a cut victory over Murilo and also had lost to Chuck.

That’s what I call mid tier, and your post is more evident of revisionist history than mine.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 7:49 AM EST up reply actions  

*former champion of the UFC boo lack of edit

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 7:50 AM EST up reply actions  

agree to disagree.

by DirtyML on Dec 30, 2010 4:08 AM EST up reply actions  

That’s why I don’t consider Chuck an all time great. Not only did Rampage beat him, but he then failed to avenge the loss later when Rampage destroyed him for a second time. The sequel is rarely as good as the original, but Rampage’s second win over Chuck was awesome.

by pud333 on Dec 30, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

what if Shogun has a nice title run and rematches and fails to avenge his loss to Forrest? Does that suddenly wipe away all of his other accomplisments and not make him an all time great anymore? I don’t think it should.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Dec 30, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

If they fight again

And Forrest dominates him again, yeah, I think I would question it.

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend

by Neil Manich on Dec 30, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Chuck wasn't acclimated to one night tournaments?

The man has so many good wins. Bustamante, Pele, Randy twice, Tito twice, Babalu twice, Monson, Overeem, Randleman, Belfort, Suloev, Mezger, and Wand.

IMO Chuck has the edge simply beating Randy, Tito, and Babalu 2 times a piece, and beating Wand. Chuck’s record is the most decorated in the LHW division IMO.

"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."

by Broke Lesnar on Dec 30, 2010 6:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Chuck vs shogun debate of greatest LHW is impossible to say right now. However, if shogun is able to defend his LHW belt multiple times say 3-4 i will have to give him the nod.

I basically i think a person who followed Pride very closely would say Shogun and a person who followed UFC closely would say chuck. but how does defending ur title against all the same ppl give u warrant to be the greatest lhw of all time. randy 3 times, tito twice, babalu twice, rampage twice, jeremy horn twice. shogun has a much broader variety. iono its way to close.

by yellopanda on Dec 30, 2010 4:08 AM EST reply actions  

Shogun never had a title to defend. And Chuck’s entire resume as a whole, is more impressive imo. Shogun still has time tho, so he could very well be that guy soon.

"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."

by Broke Lesnar on Dec 30, 2010 6:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Can't believe the lack of respect

for Chuck here. Man was a straight up wrecking machine during his prime. Yes at one time he was the most feared striker on Earth but I would have to to a prime Wandy over prime Chuck.

1a Wandy
1b Chuck

by Riney on Dec 30, 2010 11:11 AM EST reply actions  

NO

Chuck 1a HE BEAT WAND

by Str8_right on Dec 30, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Why all this talk about Wandy?

Didn’t Wandy juice his ass off in Pride, and then lose when he came to the states because he couldn’t juice? And Chuck beat him anyway… and Chuck was older.

"He wants to get in close to use that reach advantage." - Goldie

by nerdVictory on Dec 30, 2010 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

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