The Washington Post Underscores What's Different About SB Nation (and Us)
by Luke Thomas on Dec 23, 2010 4:37 PM EST
in MMA Analysis
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This site has grown exponentially and will continue to do so in 2011. But not everyone is a fan of what we do. Many suggest the MMA media's role is to give facts and do a little cheerleading for the sport. Admittedly, members of that group generally know absolutely nothing about modern digital media, so that opinion is easy to dismiss. But don't take my word for it. There's an article from The Washington Post talking about the growth and success of this site's parent company, SB Nation. Here's what our CEO sees as the key to the network's success:
Most sports reporters cover games from the press box. The perch typically provides a view of the entire field of play and quick access to post-game press conferences with coaches and players.
SB Nation bloggers prefer the bleachers.
It's a fitting seat for the legion of team die-hards powered by a common blogging software. The writers have no qualms about marrying fandom with fact-finding as they report on their favorite professional and college teams.
"From an editorial perspective, we put all of our emphasis on being by, of and for the fan," said chief executive Jim Bankoff. "Unlike a lot of other outlets, we will embrace bias and check objectivity at the door. We believe that spectator sports are about being subjective, not objective."
If you're keeping score, the formula is working. CNBC named SB Nation of the five "emerging companies you should be paying attention to". The Atlantic named SB Nation one of the top 10 most valuable blogs in America. Paying attention, yet?
Now, what we do here at BloodyElbow.com is tad bit different than the standard message of "of, by and for the fans". Our message is "of, by and for ourselves". If it sounds selfish, that's because it's designed to be. There is no such thing as the view from nowhere and worse, taking the position that our job is to be proxy PR firms for MMA promotions is the height of ignorance and stupidity. Anyone with a shred of respect for their profession in media would never do such a thing.
Instead, we aim to cover the sport as we see it. It's our perspective and no one is required to agree. In fact, no one is required to even pay attention. But that's sort of where all of the arguments against our model fall apart. We often hear "anyone can be a blogger", and that's technically true. Not everyone, however, can develop and maintain an audience. That's where those who believe we have no right to comment (or at least comment in the way we do) have lost their way.
The reality is the model of subjective perspective as a function of real-time coverage is the future of digital media, not an aberration. The ability of any person to be a part of the discussion is a very natural consequence of the Internet's design and ethos. So is the development of the aggregation model of news gathering. What an open Internet permits is for the democratization of opinion. And for those who work hard enough and have the skills or talent, that openness allows for you to amass an audience for your work. And the reason why it works is because it is personal. When you find the right author, you feel like you're connecting with them. And like interaction with a real person, you see their flaws, biases or brilliance. That's what reading Andrew Sullivan is like for me. It's a much more enriching, engaging if complicated experience.
Admittedly, not everyone is our audience. Plenty of smart and formally educated people won't ever like what we do. That's perfectly fine. If you want straight news, there's plenty. And if you're looking for media lackeys, you're in luck: MMA is full of them, too.
Generally, though, when folks claim all we do is borrow content from others or have a position we shouldn't have by virtue of our occupation, all that tells me is they don't do much reading outside of MMA. Do you know where I got this model? From political blogging. They've been doing it (along with food bloggers, travel bloggers, movie bloggers, comedy bloggers, etc.) for a very, very long time. When I looked around MMA back in 2004 and 2005, I noticed no one was doing that, at least not very well. So, if you think this is unique or if this is the first you've seen of it, I hope you're getting a Kindle for Christmas.
We do have an obligation to try to get things right every time. We will fail at that mission as will every other media source. It's a noble goal, an impossible goal, but the right one. But we aren't going away and neither is this version of news coverage. Not everyone who has a perspective is worth having an audience, but that's a process that will sort itself out naturally. Over the long run, that's not a legitimate concern.
We are not here to save or hurt MMA. We couldn't even if we tried. And the unfortunate news is if you don't like our model of journalism, 2011 is going to be a very, very bad year for you.
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the mission statement
will be pearls before swine I expect.
In one of the UG threads hating on us they kept harping that we didn’t have journalism degrees. Jesus christ. Like a journo degree from some two steps above community college compares to my liberal arts education. H.L. Mencken and Mark Twain, no journo degrees. Edward R. Murrow, no journo degree.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Journo degrees are worthless.
I used to work in a dead end job in an office full of journalism degrees. Journalism is all but dead anyway, most schools with up-to-date journalism programs offer so much “digital journalism” at this point that the line is so blurred, they are teaching you how to be a blogger.
Liver Kick, formerly HKL
Twitter @LiverKick
yeah
I worked in very high end PR and politics for 15 years the smart guys were NOT working in newspapers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
One of my closest family friends runs Campaignsandelections.com
Which is a massive political blog. Never took a journalism class. At this point journalism degrees don’t matter. A business degree could help more in the long run.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Journalism degrees matter.
People learn that when they face their first defamation suit.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
He's been working in politics for 15 years now
He’s a public affairs major from Penn and Columbia. He understands politics.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
also slight correction. He started campaignsandelections.com
Now he’s the VP for campaigngrid
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Where's thisredengine?
Did that handle go the way of Black Lesnar?
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Yep
Running HeadKickLegend now with hlebtasic and dutchbaby.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
agree on that
had to do some catching up on the ol’ education when I got BE sued.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Well that sounds like an awesome story in itself.
"What do you know about my vision? My vision will turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself: Are you really ready to see that vision?"
-Huey Freeman
quick summary
If a fighter alleges that another fighter’s trainer committed a felony, you are well advised to put a lot of “allegedly” in the post.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
"allegedly" what seems like the most necessary/most overused word in news
"What do you know about my vision? My vision will turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself: Are you really ready to see that vision?"
-Huey Freeman
There's nothing wrong with journalism degrees.
As long as, in getting those degrees, you learn the tools that are used today, not a decade ago.
We’re training all our reporters and editors in video production, and the print deadline has gone the way of the dodo. Constant updates, SEO headlines, reader engagement – these have replaced layout and print skills, even among 30-year veterans.
But proper editing, research, fact-checking, writing, ethics… these are still things that separate the blogger with an opinion from the journalist with a blog, and as the noise ratio gets higher, it’ll be those bloggers who can hold to journalistic standards that rise to the top, a la Sullivan, Nate Silver, Glenn Greenwald, etc.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
sure
But you’ll note that none of the guys you mention have journalism degrees.
There’s nothing wrong with journalism degrees, but they are also far from necessary components to do journalism well. I took plenty of journalism courses in college but the good stuff was pretty well covered in about 3 semesters.
We certainly try to adhere to journalistic best practices but I’m more about Jay Rosen than the myth of objectivity.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I've never held that journalism is about objectivity..
..at least not the current format of it, where if one side says one thing you need to give equal time to the side that you know is lying.
Drawing a conclusion is something that big media runs hard from these days, but they shouldn’t, because an honest to god, backed up by sources, demonstrable statement that party X is lying to us all is what people want out of a good media outlet.
I know Sullivan etc don’t have J-degrees, but they do uphold some damn fine journalistic practices. They back up what they write, they admit when they’re wrong, they don’t tow the party line, and they call bullshit when they see it.
You guys at SBN (largely – Halo’s Heaven will always be a gong show) do too. Which is why I held SBN out as the shining example of what the establishment side needs to move towards.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
thanks
I do believe that there is a good knowledge and experience pool to draw on from journalistic best practices.
My compass point is Jay Rosen from the NYU Journalism School.
Here’s Rosen debunking the notion that being a professional = being legitimate:
I don’t think "professionalism" is a feature of legitimacy at all. We could say it’s one way of attempting to secure legitimacy, but the equation: professional news person = legitimate provider of news does not work. Nor does the reverse: you’re legit if you’re recognizably a professional.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
FWIW
I don’t have a journalism degree (or any degree, for that matter) either. They pulled me out of blogger central casting to work at the paper when they realized how little digital knowledge they had, purely on the strength of what I’d been writing in my own time and what I knew about the tech end.
But every day since has been a lesson in what I didn’t know, and I was fortunate to dodge some pretty hard bullets early on with the help of mentors, pick-up college courses and dumb luck.
Two years later, I won an award for excellence in journalism. I think when “the internet guy” pulled that off, they realized that it was time to crack the door open to the rest of the world.
Bottom line: Reporters need to learn a lot off bloggers. Bloggers need to learn a lot off reporters. Those from both sides that do will own the next twenty years.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
by Ozzz on Dec 23, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, you get it.
I don’t consider myself tops at anything, I just started writing about fighting a few years ago for fun, and most of the fun was trolling people with Snowden. I have degrees in Creative Writing and Graphic Design, but I still think over the years I’ve developed enough to where I cringe at what these “legitimate journalists” do to get stories and how they present them.
Journalism is more than objective, boring stories.
Liver Kick, formerly HKL
Twitter @LiverKick
I'm totally out of line shitting on journalism degrees
lots of brilliant people have journo degrees. Lots of smart people write for newspapers and do broadcast journalism.
It’s more the notion of credentialism that offends me.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It’s more the notion of credentialism that offends me.
Word.
When in Rome we shall do as the Romans, when in Hell we do shots at the bar.
by Barack Lesnar on Dec 23, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
I agree.
What hurts journalism more than anything else is the desire to kill or dampen a story in order to save one’s privileged position in the press box/conference/cocktail party circuit.
Reporters should be ruthless with the truth, and if someone wants to ‘retaliate’ by killing credentials, that should be seen as a declaration of war and bring about a bright shining light on the credential withholder going forward.
I used to be a movie critic, and it ate my ass that my colleagues wouldn’t publish a review of a bad movie until opening night because the studios told them they couldn’t, and would risk having their creds taken away if they ignored that instruction.
If every critic ignored them and broke embargo, the studios would buckle, but they go along to get along and.. well, we know where movie criticism is nowadays on the scale of public importance.
In the world of fence-sitters, the man with the sledgehammer is king.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
Right.
Just like any other degree, there are smart people who have journalism degrees, just the fact that people still have this antiquated notion that to be a journalist you NEED a journo degree is hilarious.
It is in a lot of places, too. I did the rounds of New England art schools, and the attitudes there were similar. Berklee for music was the most glaring example, where you need this intensive, overkill music education to be a musician and look down at everyone who doesn’t have it, while sitting around analyzing modern music written by college dropouts and drug addicts. lol.
Liver Kick, formerly HKL
Twitter @LiverKick
has Berklee ever produced a really great musician?
I remember seeing ads for it in Guitar Player magazine in the 1980s. Didn’t know it was still around.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I'll have to give Al a listen
I’m from Austin the home of Eric Johnson. That’s a lifetime supply of twiddly twiddly for me.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Metheny ain’t bad.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
http://twitter.com/usatmma
The magazine that had the biggest influence on me growing up was the now-defunct Musician magazine. They had ads for Berklee all the time, and for a while, it had near-mystical status for me. I dreamed of taking my guitar there for a summer workshop but never really pressed my parents on the issue.
When I stepped out of the subway to go the UFC Fan Expo in Boston, I realized I was standing right there. I froze. I took pictures. I touched the building. I felt like Bart Simpson when he walked up to the Mad magazine office.
Of course, I would’ve been laughed out of Berklee, having neither the skills nor the lifestyle to go into music.
Unfortunately, the most famous Berklee alum these days is probably John Mayer, though I’ll argue for Aimee Mann and a lot of really good drummers (Will Calhoun).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumni_of_Berklee_College_of_Music
I remember Musician
led me to buying a lot of shitty records in the 1980s but also led me to the Minutemen which led to SST Records which led to Black Flag, Husker Du, Meat Puppets, etc etc.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not to pour rain on the parade, but in my personal opinion, it’s not the degree that matters, it’s the skills you pick up and traditional journalism has some general rules that should be followed by more MMA writers. These rules are all based on grammar and they make the articles much more readable. A lot of bloggers write huge paragraphs and don’t even quote coherently, making there paragraphs labored and sometimes unreadable.
Reading a blog post should be fast and easy. The relevant information should all be in the first paragraph. It shouldn’t be a chore to read some of these posts. But it is.
Obviously not all of the time, but some bloggers need to attend a journalism class or two.
by Steven T. Kelliher on Dec 23, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
definitely writing
can always be improved. not every piece should have to follow the who, what, where, when, why formula. but yeah things should be more scannable and quicker to “get”.
the thing about blogging is we’re operating on essentially no writing budget and the key to traffic is quantity.
so every writer has a huge amount of freedom from guidelines.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
We feature a wide variety of stories here: essays, long features, traditional blog entries, q+a style interviews to name just a few. I don’t think your standard inverted pyramid is preferable or even tolerable in most cases.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 23, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
much better than my answer
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
In one of the UG threads
Stay away from the underground!! It is literally the worst.
BE is the best place on the web for MMA discussion!
Regardless of how wrong you guys are all the time, there is no place I would rather be.
by truck on Dec 23, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funniest part of that thread? I do have a journalism degree and was Editor in Chief of my college paper.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 23, 2010 6:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It was weird to see my life through their eyes.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 23, 2010 6:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah I just read that whole thing. I want that part of my life back
by Brandon Starr on Dec 23, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
It was fun for me
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
That’s depressing.
And if they’re saying philosophy majors can’t be journalists, they’d better not check my academic background.
it's a bunch of angry butt hurt dipshits for the most part
coming up with reasons to discredit us because they don’t like that a) we banned them from BE or b) that we criticized them.
There are a few valid critiques in there amidst the rubble and Black Lesnar does a pretty good job representing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I was going to point out the absurdity of them calling you unprofessional and disrespectful in the same sentence they call you douchebags, hurts vages, and cunts. But then you had to go and say they were a bunch of angry butt hurt dipshits.
I will say the best part is you openly replying to them with your real name and they’re clueless to the fact.
yeah that was an accident
I have a Kid Nate membership there from when we used to run their news page but I used the wrong one. lol.
I’m no saint on the name calling I’m sad to say.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
My favorite line was
Walter Cronkite wasn’t known as Kid Cronk for a fucking reason.
I wish Walter Cronkite called himself Kid Cronk.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
yeah me too
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't it be Kid Walt anyway?
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 24, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions
I believe a couple of them recommended changing the name of the site to BloodyVagina.
Thoughts?
I don’t really like it. Makes me think of like a fetish porn site. At least that person cared enough to offer an idea though. Circle of life.
by Brandon Starr on Dec 23, 2010 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
a GREAT job - hahahaha
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
I read most of what they wrote.
And here is my take. I do think this site comes off more negative than any other site out there. I don’t know if you guys have a fighter bashing policy but I personally hate fighter bashing. And to see it done by staff always pisses me off to no end. I want to see this site grow and become a place that fighters come to for interviews. I just don’t see that happening very often.
Also I would like to add that I have seen a trend to ban people for the slightest transgressions. I just don’t see the point of it. The staff really isn’t setting a good example.
by Crazynutts on Dec 24, 2010 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That’s the thing. People always say that but they don’t know that there are very few people banned on first offense. There are some, but our system allows us to track the number of inappropriate comments posted, the number of warnings received..etc. All that comes into play when we decide who to ban.
But I really don’t think the staff “fighter bashes” very often.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 24, 2010 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Also...
it’s important to remember that this is “our house.” (cue my standard thing…)
When you come to my house, I’m going to tell you to take your shoes off on the rug inside the front door. Even if I walk around inside with my shoes on, that doesn’t mean you get to just because I am.
Have we occasionally not “held ourselves” to the standard that we want for the site? Sure. But we’re allowed..
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 24, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
You’re certainly allowed but there will be backlash that is unhealthy for your PR. I think the UG thread is really a combination of a few guys banned for flimsy reasons and a handful of other people that couldn’t take legitimate criticism.
They need to get some thicker skin.
The guy who pointed out my ban left out context. He’d been told in the past to knock off going into posts to JUST tell us to get rid of Jon and the like. He did it again, I banned him. But of course when the story is presented over there it’s presented as “I criticized them so I was banned.”
And I don’t know how you can judge that the reasons for banning were “flimsy” without knowing the actual situations involved.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 24, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, that one guy failed to mention he had been warned. I figured he got the 1,000,000th commenter to insult Snowden award.
The other user was a guy that ’lol’ed at Fagan for warning a guy that he would ban him for insulting his game review. Well within the rights of the Admins.
I don’t have perfect knowledge of the situation but I do follow the threads. I’ll give user feedback when I can.
It’s not THAT you ban people. It’s HOW you ban people.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
we don't engage in name calling
and insults.
some people in MMA think anything that’s critical is “bashing”.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
That is true.
But some of what is said outside of name calling can be just as degrading. I read everything you guys put out, even Jon’s stuff. Sometimes it feels like you guys wake up on the wrong side of the bed.
You get a pass Nate due to the fact you live in Austin. You would make a great addition to the Statesman.
We do several original interviews every week.
Are you not reading them? Marcus Davis this week. Gilbert Melendez last week.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Of course I read them.
I just don’t want to see bridges being burned. Seeing Carwin talking shit about this site is crazy.
Clueless people have a right to an opinion even if it’s embarrassing to witness them express it. He won’t slow us down.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Dude, Carwin’s butthurt. Fighters are people too, and people generally suck. I’ve never met the man, nor would I care to. I’m sure he’s a decent dude, but he gets worked up about things and has a hard time dropping shit.
It’s a petty thing for Carwin to be this vocal about so long after it happened.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 24, 2010 5:52 AM EST up reply actions
If fighter interviews are conditional, meaning you can’t get them if you express any valid criticisms or opinions, I don’t want them. For what it’s worth, I’ve interviewed everyone in this business from Dana down. Having an intelligent opinion has never slowed me down.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 24, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I read the first page of the UG thread
That co-host from the incredibly awful Tapout radio show doesn’t seem to be a fan. You don’t seem to kiss enough fighter ass for her taste.
by Anton Chigurh on Dec 23, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t know who she was. Listened to one of the shows…wow. I don’t think we could possibly express more divergent viewpoints. That’s fine. It’s a big world and there’s room for her aesthetic and ours.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 23, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
her gig is inherently
shilling. that’s cool and all. has its place.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I know
Same thing with the Junkie Radio guys, although their show is more worth occasionally listening to than Tapout Radio.
I don’t have a problem with them doing what they do, but for her to just act like BE is terrible for expressing an opinion is laughable. Judging from her comments in that thread, She seems to think mma sites should be spitting out zuffa propaganda and fluff pieces about our wonderful sport exclusively.
by Anton Chigurh on Dec 24, 2010 8:13 AM EST up reply actions
confirms all my theories about journo degrees
; )
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm blown away that Jonathan's many critics haven't turned this comment green.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 24, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
I definitely do agree that you are doing things a little different. Most other sites don’t auto-fellate quite so publicly.
auto-fellating
is one of those things that, great as it is to be able to do it, it’s not really complete unless you show off to the world.
I mean if Ron Jeremy sucked his own cock in a forest and no one saw it…
Etc.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Fauna nerd.
:)
Koscheck has frosted tips.
by Ozzz on Dec 23, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I lol’d
Always leave em laughin
by Bobillarious on Dec 23, 2010 5:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Tron: Jeremy
http://www.break.com/break-originals/other-funny-stuff/tron-jeremy-1969596
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Bloody Elbow has been my home for MMA news, discussion, and everything in between for a long time now. Internet meme or not, haters really are gonna hate. Look at the traffic here, look at the quality of the content, and look at the fruit of the endeavor…BE is great. Period. Some will disagree, but numbers do not lie, you guys are doing something right.
Looking forward to 2011, for sure.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 23, 2010 4:51 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
I work at a large newspaper.
We had a meeting last week where I had to talk the board through how we’re going to treat citizen journalism and blogging going forward. I put SBNation up on the boardroom screen and said “This is how you do it.”
SBN has the model that works. The rest of us are playing catch-up.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
Nah.
Took them on a wonderful journey over SBN’s timeline, from Dkos through Athletics Nation to the present.
Many confused looks. You could see some of them realizing that they should have been on this a decade ago and that they were no longer the biggest players around.
Reality chomp.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
Well if it makes you feel any better
I’m a former reporter who founded the company with Markos. So it was someone who was trained in journalism who started things but didn’t feel like we were getting what we needed as fans.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 23, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Journalism and fandom
The funny thing is that you guys in so many ways are so much more than fans. I find that on a lot of SB Nation blogs, frankly. Even the team-specific blogs (like any good Caps fan, I read Japers’ Rink) are, for lack of a better word, reasonable.
One of these days, I’m going to figure out how you’ve been able to be successful while so many sports blogs are just tawdry recitations of athletes’ misdeeds with a bunch of leering commenters.
Oh — and journalism degrees? I don’t have one. Didn’t take a journalism class until grad school, and those were basically histories and independent studies on how things were changing in 2000. (The answer: We’re doomed.)
the Deadspin guys aren't fans
they are like the Gawker blogs (are they owned by Gawker?) who are just paparazzi with blogs. Hoping they’ll chase Princess Di off the road so they can get the photos from the scene of the crash.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Will Leitch started Deadspin
and made it awesome. Then he sold it to Gawker and now under AJ Daulerio it is a steaming pile of shit. It is now all about TMZ-type crap.
I still check it out of habit but aside from Drew Magary’s work and sometimes Tommy Craggs, they have no worthwhile pieces.
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Dec 23, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I enjoy Drew Magary
having said that, his works often deals specifically with steaming piles of shit, and hilarity ensues.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
They are indeed Gawker, and that’s a good description of the Gawker blogs except for the useful Lifehacker.
The Consumerist was useful under Gawker, but once they ejected it… it hasn’t been the same.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
Deadspin...
…Is certainly part of the Gawker family…..former EIC Will Leitch and Drew Magary are certainly “fans”, perhpas you can lump the remaining staff in with the paparazzi….regardless, keep up the great work. BE is the last site I check b4 sleep and the first when I wake up.
#whatthefiswrongwithme
#aretheresupportgroupmtgs
by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Dec 23, 2010 5:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Really?
It’s TMZ Sports.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 23, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
It’s much more accurate as to what they do now than it used to be. I just don’t care for the direction they have now.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 24, 2010 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's mostly that Deadspin used to be better than it is now.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 24, 2010 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
I believe any blog’s success is grounded on content and initiating discussion.
Historical pieces
Interviews
Judo Chop
Scouting Reports
Live Discussion
Fan Posting
Author driven rants
Author-Commentor Interaction (This is a biggie and makes a blog a blog. )
I love what you guys are doing with BE. Keep walking that line.
I find the argument a little odd.
I was involved in the periphery of TV journalism briefly in the late 60s. (I had only two journalism classes in college.) In Vietnam I wrote 20 minutes of TV news every night for several months at our little Armed Forces station—everything but the sports, which I knew nothing about. Then, for a couple of years in Boston, I was an assistant director on many of the evening newscasts where I was occasionally asked to edit or fix a story when airtime approached and there was a crunch. In both places one of the first things I heard from people on the news staffs was envy of the sports side of the house because, they told me, sports is not held to the same standard of “objectivity” as “news.” A sports writer can call the games however they see fit, and no one will object.
This is largely true. Short of out-and-out lying, almost anything you can say about sports is dependent on a personal point of view about what you’ve seen.To argue that a site that specializes in sports falls short of some lofty journalistic standard is rhetorical hot air. It’s never been that way and never will be.
What sets Bloody Elbow apart from other MMA sites is its nuts-and-bolts approach to clarifying what the game is.At that, it’s without peer within my experience.
by Roamin on Dec 23, 2010 5:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I love SBnation because of the live-updating, nested comment section, and the fact that most sites are pretty fairly moderated enough not to have stupid trolls. That’s pretty much the main reason. Mostly around just for the news and the sweet comments section.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
The best part of BE is that the writers here aren't necessarily preaching to the choir.
The disagreements amongst the community members and even amongst BE staff is what keeps this place healthy (plus a nice dose of the banhammer). Preaching to the choir is for lackies and the insecure. At the end of the day, it is debate and conflict that helps bring about change, and helps those who are open minded enough to learn something new and change their paradigm.
So to the haters: “Fuck y’all. All of y’all.” – Dr. Dre.
I never really put deep thought as to why i enjoy BE so much
but you guys have to be doing something right, BE has been my homepage for a year and a half.
:)
I'm looking forward to seeing how long this post lasts.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
I rec'd it.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Dec 24, 2010 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
I did too
:D
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 24, 2010 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
I'm fine with it
it’s funny.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
A bit of a quibble
See, i wonder…
The reality is the model of subjective perspective as a function of real-time coverage is the future of digital media, not an aberration.
If you say that, do you really get to say something like this too?
There is no such thing as the view from nowhere and worse, taking the position that our job is to be proxy PR firms for MMA promotions is the height of ignorance and stupidity. Anyone with a shred of respect for their profession in media would never do such a thing.
Is objectivity not one of the foremost virtues that those in the media should respect? Has it not been a guiding principle of journalism for more then a century? From my understanding, that is the case. If you’re going to throw such a fundamental element of journalism out the window, i’m not sure you should be speaking on the respect you have for your work in media.
Speaking of a view from nowhere, of course there is no such thing. The idea of a person devoid of all emotion and intellectual curiosity is absurd. However, the idea of keeping those emotions and intellectually driven opinions in check while you report the facts is not quite so crazy of an idea.
Honestly though, to be perfectly frank, i don’t really know why i’m taking you to task here. I really don’t mean this as some sort of attack on you, and trust me, i love what you guys do (even when i hate it) and what you’ve all made of BE, and i’m not going anywhere. This is my go to place for anything related to MMA news. This just irked me a bit, i guess.
"Who are you and how the hell did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith... and i'm a locksmith."
there's a difference
between objectivity and fairness. we try to be fair but we all have our biases and all we can do is try to disclose them.
“objective journalism” was invented in the late 19th century by New York papers seeking a brand advantage by adopting a “just the facts” model. It was very successful in its day when newspapers did actually deliver the news.
Now that everyone has the news online instantly it’s pretty much pointless to try and hold to the “objective” model. Objectivity works when you’re reporting the box scores but not so much when you’re doing the behind the scenes analysis.
But pretending that you’re writing from Mount Olympus as a disinterested observer is just bullshit. It’s a fucking lie and is a huge part of why American journalism isn’t serving its public function anymore. “Objectivity” is used as a smoke screen for he said/she said journalism and no one points out that one side is fucking lying.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
But pretending that you’re writing from Mount Olympus as a disinterested observer is just bullshit. It’s a fucking lie and is a huge part of why American journalism isn’t serving its public function anymore. "Objectivity" is used as a smoke screen for he said/she said journalism and no one points out that one side is fucking lying.
Sure, but it goes both ways, doesn’t it? If you use opinionated and reasoned arguments to point out someones bullshit, someone else does the same thing ( butwith “reasoned” arguments as opposed to reasoned arguments) to discredit legitimate issues they find inconvenient. That’s why i find subjectivity in the media a dangerous proposition.
Beyond that, in the context of BE, you make a good point about objectivity vs fairness. I certainly wouldn’t criticize you guys as unfair.
"Who are you and how the hell did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith... and i'm a locksmith."
there's no cure
that will magically ensure rhetoric is honest. All you can do is try to reveal your sources and let readers sort out your biases and bullshit for themselves.
It’s funny to me to read attacks on BE that praise other sites and reporters for their objectivity and inevitably pick the biggest shills and PR outlets for the UFC as their ideal MMA reporter.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
note that Rosen, of the NYU Journo School
doesn’t include Objectivity in his 8 Criteria for Legitimate Journalism.
The myth of objectivity is a tool that corporate media has used to foist lies and bullshit on a gullible public.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Totally agree
I’ve known for years that there are lots of things that influence stories, mostly including a lot of personal relationships with athletes. I think we just helped bring that out of the dark.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 23, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Jay Rosens Eight Criteria for Legitimacy in Journalism
and BE meets them all as best we can (link):
I’d start with the will to veracity, also known as truthtelling. Truthtelling even when it hurts or causes problems for your friends. Real journalists tell us what happened because it actually happened that way, and not some other way. All forms of legitimacy derive from this one.
Then I’d move on to a manifest concern for accuracy, as in getting it right and correcting it when wrong.
Third pillar: transparency, also called disclosure, so we know where you’re coming from and what your stake is in the matter under review, if any.
Intellectual honesty: like when you paraphrase what Senator Brown says it actually does capture what Senator Brown says. This is sometimes called “fairness,” but I think my term is more descriptive.
Currency, in the sense that you are trying to report what happened recently, to keep up with events and what is known now. Journalism is about the present, not what was true six months or six years ago. Legitimacy in journalism has something to do with a determination to keep us up to date with a shifting world.
Inquiry: not the perfect word but the closest fit I can find. I refer to the drive to find out, to inquire and reveal more than what lies on the surface. We all know of situations in which the person in question didn’t lie but also didn’t try… to find out. That’s what I mean by inquiry: trying to find out. Journalism, to be journalism, must do that.
Utility, sometimes called by another name: public service. Journalists can get into legitimacy problems when they are trying to find out, but finding out serves no public purpose. Their legitimacy is clearest when the public interest is served by what they are striving to reveal to us.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I’ve had great arguments with Jay Rosen. You might be able to find one or two online somewhere. When I met him in person, I think he was a little scared.
I remember reading this awhile ago and actually try to consciously follow it when writing a fanpost if I’m not to busy twisting the facts to my desire.
you should post more often
your shit is always primo and often you make comments that should be posts.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Top 5 commenter for sure. Always look for his name.
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 23, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
As someone who’s been around here for a year and change and paid attention to guys like Tucker Max, I’m incredibly surprised that mainstream media organizations like the Washington Post and CNBC are aware of how well SBNation (and BE as a subset) is doing.
Most of the time, the people in these older organizations are exactly like the confused faces Ozzz mentions in his post above – dinosaurs who have no idea that strong competitors are coming up.
For those of you who dismiss this as pure wankery, remember that innovative and successful (profitable) media coverage doesn’t come along very often and every bit of recognizance and legitimacy that it achieves is something worth noting and commemorating. Hell, anything innovative and successful deserve to be celebrated.
http://www.InStrength.com - the best MMA community anywhere.
i disagree often with some of the blogs here
but thats half the fun, keep up the good work guys
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
WoW great post
agree with the stance… typically also in mma there is less content(maybe 45 real events a year that matter) to report on.. so discussing the sport is much more enriching then actually blandly relating the news. I can say I enjoy checking this site more then the news sites cus you guys just have more to read.
by Joshro on Dec 23, 2010 5:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Bloodyelbow is different for three reasons in my mind
1. The staff has differing opinions. There is no company line to tow as long as the pieces are strong.
2. There is a benefit for having community members like Beau Dure who works for the Washington Post as active community members. It provides a level of legitimacy for what Nate and Luke are doing.
3. Original content. It’s not the bland “this is what’s going on” shit that other sites post. It’s well edited.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
I work for the Post? Oh crap!
(Kidding — simple mistake. Former full-timer at USA TODAY now free-lancing, mostly for USA TODAY. And Sergio Non stops in a good bit as well.)
Hahahah....I knew it was a real newspaper...gimme credit!
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
Follow me on twitter @HeadKickLegend
by Matthew Roth on Dec 23, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take the journalism thing
More seriously if the newspapers didn’t do things like blindly report Iraq has WMDs.
by Ironbuddha on Dec 23, 2010 5:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Word.
It’s a sad thing that, if Jon Stewart hadn’t shone a hard light on the first responders bill last week, which most in the media ignored and continue to ignore, it would have died a quick death.
That sort of topic should be red meat to reporters and publishers.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
I'm flattered to be any part of the beast
The added death of the notion of “objective journalism” is a bonus.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 23, 2010 5:46 PM EST reply actions
I find this blog rather shallow and pedantic.
jk. If I spent half as much time working as I do on this site, I would get twice as much work done.
word
i can only imagine what my grades would look like without bloody elbow.
by kanginator10 on Dec 23, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I hope this wasn't in response to that thread on the UG
That was a fun thread. Bunch of whiners who got banned from here and Shane Carwin. And he namedropped ME.
I wanna give a shoulout to NukNuk, Peanut and dem.
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 6:17 PM EST reply actions
Anyone got a link to this thread?
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 23, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&forum=1&thread=1744205&page=1
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
My head hurts after that. lmao
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Dec 23, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
yes
Luke and I didn’t let the staff get in there other than my one comment so I was happy S.C. was in there smoking fools.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Hey, they busted their guns on my behalf when Jeremy Botter was trying to take a shit on me
for posting that Chael Sonnen story. It’s the LEAST I could do.
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
much appreciated
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
But seriously, those "hatin" on the blog model are behind the times
There’s only so much you can do with “straight reporting”. It’s vanilla.
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 6:21 PM EST reply actions
I think they both have their place.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say either requires the other, but it’s my knee-jerk assessment that objective information provides fodder for subjective analysis, while interest in the latter draws increase demand for more information to digest.
It is a symbiotic relationship
Will detractors see it as parasitism, it actually is mutualism.
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 23, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
Keep doing what you're doing
I come to BE first precisely for the subjective analysis of MMA. I don’t see how anyone can say they get everything they want from these new only mma sites like junkie and weekly. I don’t really care about who has signed to fight on an undercard four UFC events out. I don’t particularly need to hear every throw away quote from Greg Jackson or Scott Coker or even Dana. This site keeps me interested in mma between events.
Also, the comments section seem to be well moderated and the best place I have found to discuss mma without excessive trolling and name calling.
Thanks to everyone who contributes to this site.
Thanks for noticing. I carefully selected it.
by Anton Chigurh on Dec 23, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Late to the Gathering just like the rest of my life
People getting that Christmas hate out.
Respect the Elbow and follow me on Twitter @duanefinleymma.
I know what I'm giving for Christmas
I’m sending a huge forum “Hug” over to the UG. I know I’m the new guy on team BE but they get worked up pretty easy over there eh?
Respect the Elbow and follow me on Twitter @duanefinleymma.
they're an angry mob
and are being ringlead by Carwin and Rogan who are angry at us over various things.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 23, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
about the crusade I launched to get him to stop using
“faggot” in his public vocabulary.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Dec 24, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Every forum should have a “forum Andy Hug” who will axe kick them whenever they say something stupid .
/gets kicked/
Yeah...protect you thumb...it's the only thing that differentiates you from the monkey...
by dancingChicken on Dec 24, 2010 7:42 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand why people give you guys shit.
You guys do plenty of original reporting out there, and there are already 100 people out there “reporting” when fights are going to happen and who is fighting who. As soon as they do it, they tell the world, and you guys give us a place to discuss those things, while spending your time doing different types of reporting that is actually more beneficial.
For some reason people on the internet have decided that getting “scoops” on stuff that is going to be announced later (2 weeks later in our sport, 2 hours later in the bigger sports) is the only type of reporting there is, it’s not.
It would be great if you guys could go to the events, sit at press row, give us live play by play and ask the questions you want to at the press conference. But you can’t right now, and 95% of the questions that you would ask are going to get asked anyway, and most of the other 5% wouldn’t get answered, so who cares. You can give us play by play via your television, and you can do the other types of reporting out there.
To me that stuff is worthless. They actually care about who had it an hour before the other guy. Meanwhile they would never dare write about sponsorship issues or fighter safety. It’s the weirdest “legitimate” reporting you could imagine. They write all the press releases, none of the substance. Imagine having that kind of access and writing exclusively about who is going to fight who next?
by Jonathan Snowden on Dec 24, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
yea, I don’t get it. I understand that people have to do it, but I don’t understand why people think that’s all journalism is these days.
After the story gets broken, everyone is going to be talking about it everywhere, so who cares if this site gives us a place to discuss it? How does that take away the rest of the stuff you guys do?
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