Overreach in the Argument About MMA as Both Entertainment and Sport
by Luke Thomas on Dec 21, 2010 6:01 PM EST
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What do you do with a Division I football coach with a 10-year record at your school of 74-50? Maybe you're not sure. Ok, what do you do with that same coach if they went 8-4 this season? Still not sure? Ok, what if that same coach was named ACC Coach of the Year this year for their exemplary performance? I'll tell you what you do. You fire him.
What does any of this have to do with MMA? The Washington Post's John Feinstein explains:
[Ralph] Friedgen isn't being fired because he can't coach. He had a record of 74-50 in 10 years after taking over a moribund program at his alma mater. He went to seven bowl games. The anomaly of 2009 aside, he put together a solid program.
But that wasn't enough. Friedgen's being fired because he no longer excites Maryland fans even when he's winning. They sent that message loud and clear this past season, and there was no reason to believe that would change next fall. Anderson didn't want to commit to Friedgen through 2014, and he recognized Friedgen was right when he said recruiting would be hampered by being a lame-duck coach. Once Franklin left for Vanderbilt, Anderson had to make his move, one way or the other.
Emphasis mine. Does that italicized portion of the text sound familiar to anyone?
I'm often told MMA's emphasis on entertainment such that it trumps what a "normal" sport would do is so strong, MMA isn't really sport. In fact, it's no secret the UFC's formula is promote a sport on a professional wrestling model. With that kind of crossover, is it even a sport at all?
The answer is yes and the overreach on the argument is nauseating. While there's no denying combat sports are dictated more by considerations for fan entertainment than football or basketball, the idea that those sports are exempt from the invisible hand of entertainment pressures is demonstrably false.
For-profit sports are ultimately always going to be subject to demands for financial solvency or excellence. Admittedly, Maryland's football program is a struggling one. They have to resort to measures Duke basketball or Ohio State football would likely not undertake. Combat sports, such as they exist, are niche sports and must do more matchmaking and promotional origami to satisfy fan demand.
But the point is that there is not a categorical difference. The point is that there's a sliding scale. The idea there are "true" sports and that those "true" sports are free of the pressure to entertain during the course of working is a false notion promoted only by those who wish to over emphasize the role of professional wrestling in MMA in an attempt to justify the former.
Sports are about physical excellence. And within contained sporting universes, they are about determining hierarchy. Combat sports take circuitous routes, but ultimately they arrive at similar positions as traditional sports within their own universes. Title contenders like Jon Fitch and Yushin Okami might not get the linear path to glory they'd prefer, but is their legacy of achievement somehow altered by it? Sure, Randy Couture fought James Toney, but what business did Colt Brennan's University of Hawaii have competing against Mark Richt's University of Georgia?
Despite what the acolytes of sports entertainment may tell you, MMA is very much all sport. The balance of goods of what shapes and drives it is not the same as it is for other sports, but it is not a different animal. At the end of the day, sports is about entertainment. Just ask Ralph Freidgen.
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what business did Colt Brennan’s University of Hawaii have competing…
Being the only undefeated Division I-A team and ranked in the top 10 probably had something to do with it.
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With Colt Brennan setting multiple NCAA records that season.
by Brandon Starr on Dec 21, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
And the BCS rules in place which dictate that a non-AQ school who ranks as highly as Hawaii did gets a BCS birth...
same as the situation which put Boise in their game with Oklahoma which they won despite similar protestations that Boise had no business playing a powerhouse in OU.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 21, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Same happened with Utah’s appearance in 2009 against Alabama.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 21, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Right. I agree with Luke’s overall point here but those rules are actually in place to give the non-AQ schools a chance to play despite them not bringing in the kind of money and attention that a bigger name school does. The Sugar Bowl wasn’t foaming at the mouth to get Hawaii that year, but rules were put in place that granted that if you were a team that was good enough, you couldn’t be completely overlooked in favor of a bigger or more entertaining school.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 21, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
It was unfair to Hawaii, really
Anybody following that season saw that Georgia and USC were the two best teams in the nation
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by Anthony Pace on Dec 21, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Georgia probably shouldn't have lost to South Carolina and Tennessee if they wanted to claim that
As for USC, the best team in the country does not lose to a 42 point underdog at home.
Not afraid to nitpick
This is a great article. Short and to the point. And a point I couldn’t agree with more. Its hard to get a valid cross join for team sprots and MMA, but College football and MMA have one thing in commen. Success doesnt always mean BCS titles or Belts. There are tons of teams that don’t compete at that level. They need to excite the fans to stay relevent.
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Couldn't agree more
Same thing happened in hockey post lockout. I’m a big Devils fan…but they played some boring ass hockey. A lot of the rule changes screwed them over, but the goal was to make the sport more entertaining even if it was at the expense of one of the elite teams.
I see what you’re trying to do here. But Ralph’s situation is a product of being too good, too quick for his own good, and he hasn’t actually been winning all that much lately. Couple that with the fact that UnderArmour is just now becoming truly financially stable and the founder, Kevin Plank, a former Maryland player and alum, is now willing to pour in the dollars required to truly compete nationally.
Stats: Ralph’s first 3 years, with players recruited by a much more charismatic fellow (Mike Locksley, a young, black, former MD player from the area was the recruiting coordinator before fridge got there) than himself, and with two incredible coordinators (Charlie Taffe (O) and Gary Blackney (D)):
31-8 record, 2 bowl wins in really good bowls.
Ralph’s last 7 years, after those 2 coordinators left, and he had players only recruited by his own staff:
43-42 overall, 24-32 in ACC play. 2 wins in crappy bowls
Ralph is not getting Fitch’d here. He had become ineffective, was holding up progress, and sorry to say it, but his physique and demeanor are not ideal for connecting with recruits. Ralph did a great job in raising the bar for MD football, but it was over and he had to go.
/end rant.
Luke’s point still stands that other sports follow the money just like MMA, but the Friedgen situation is a bad example, and not all the facts were presented in this article
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by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:17 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
This.
Thank you for typing what I was gonna type. His record is TOP heavy.
Also, has the AD come out on record and said “He isn’t exciting”?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
nope. people in the media have brought up the idea that Mike Leach is more “exciting” but nothing from the AD about Ralph being boring
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by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
So then this isn't analogous at all to Dana White and the UFC
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
not really. like i said somewhere else, using the example of the NHL banning the neutral-zone trap because the Devils were infuriating boring but winning would have been a much better example
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by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
That's still not analogous
That’s a rule change. The NHL didn’t deny them from being in the Stanley Cup Finals. If the UFC can get the commissions to change the rules, then so be it.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
there are going to be no exact analogies
but ones that are close enough that demonstrate the point.
A better one perhaps is Andrei Johnson being allowed to play because he is exciting and was due for the big Thursday night game while innocent hits were being persecuted left and right.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
There aren't exact analogies, but there are better ones
Show me a pro sports team denied an opportunity in the title game because of being boring. THAT’S analogous.
The Andre Johnson is an example of the NFL putting business over fairness. If Brock Lesnar had punched Cain V after their fight like Daley did to Koscheck and Dana decided to not punish Lesnar, THEN the Andre situation is analogous.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
business over fairness?
Like not giving a title shot that would be bad for business over someone who probably in fairness deserved one?
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No
Punishment is arbitrary and up to the interpretation of rules committee.
A championship shot/place in the title game is totally different.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
yea yea whatever
as long as it makes sense to you.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
does anyone live on the same planet that you do where every other example of other sports choosing business or entertainment over sport doesn’t count because you say so?
Who said it "doesn't count"?
I said it isn’t analogous. And it isn’t. Even b.atlas agreed.
I know it hurts you that I could be correct.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
but you're not
so we’re all pain free. :)
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
The whole article is based on a false premise which has been thoroughly disproved
The second point of contention is that people think some are saying MMA isn’t a sport (well I’m not syaing that). MMA is a sport in the definition of the term, but it is a subsect more influenced by entertainment rather than sporting fundamentals.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Not true
Kimbo cut for a reason. You win or you’re out. The UFC has engaged in some entertainment oriented moves but by in large what happens inside the cage matters. Don’t forget, effective aggression is a scored criteria of the sport. And I have no issue with match making also taking that into account and rewarding exciting, aggressive fighters.
If the UFC really wanted to be entertaining over a sport they could have had JDS, Cain and Carwin cannibalize eachother while Lesnar was fed easier bouts for instance.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Kimbo was cut because his draw ran out. Believe that
It had nothing to do with him winning or losing. His fight against Alexander was boring and he wasn’t a draw after losing to Roy on the show, so he would be cut after his first loss. They only gave him a fight on the finale to milk one last rating out of him and that’s why they put him in with the “exciting” Alexander, knowing it wouldn’t go to the ground.
You think James Toney was signed for competitive purposes? You’ve got to be kidding me.
Effective aggressiveness is the LEAST and LAST of the judging criteria.
In all three hypothetical situations, effective aggressiveness is factored in last. It is the
criteria of least importance. Since the definition calls for moving forward and scoring, it is
imperative for the Judges to look at the scoring first.
Do you realize tat they had Cain and Carwin set for a fight in 2009? Until Carwin talked shit about Brock and started becoming Internet Jebus to the Brockophobes online? But besides that, saying they favor entertainment doesn’t mean they totally sacrifice the sporting aspect. They aren’t going to sacrifice credibility by feeding their champ cans. This isn’t PRIDE.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
Kimbo's draw wasn't dead.
And Toney was signed to prove a point, but after one fight he was cut, when they easily could have gotten more mileage out of him. Kimbo vs Toney would be a huge headline grabber, believe that.
But it’s cool, I don’t really expect you to concede a point even when caught dead to rights. I can only imagine how enraging mating you in chess must be for your opponent.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
Uh, Kimbo was done as a draw after that shitty fight with Roy and Alexander
And You ducked my question about Toney. What “mileage” could they have gotten out of him? They didn’t even pop a buyrate the first time they had him. Hahahaha. Kimbo vs Toney wasn’t doing SHIT.
There’s no point to concede because the president of the UFC agrees with me. The UFC is more towards entertainment than any other pro sports in America. Even more so than boxing because “boring” boxers still draw million buy PPVs.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
being the most entertainment oriented sport
and being more entertainment oriented than based on sporting fundamentals are two different concepts. Oh, I agree that they’re more entertainment oriented than other sports, but in the end, what makes the UFC entertaining is the fact most of the time the best fighters are fighting for the title. Disagree? If they were not based in fundamentally sporting principles, then Chuck Liddell would still be fighting for titles. Lesnar would be booked for his rematch. Kimbo would have got a fight against Brock or other things more akin to Pride.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
They are both
If they were not based in fundamentally sporting principles, then Chuck Liddell would still be fighting for titles.
No. You seem to mistake them leaning toward entertainment as them totally abandoning sporting principles. That isn’t true. You still have to be a winner to be a title contender. But you don’t have to be much of a winner (Lesnar, Belfort). Liddell doesn’t win. If Liddell had beaten Rashad, he would’ve been fighting Griffin at UFC 92 despite being 2-2 in his last four.
As for Lesnar, they already had a number one contender lined up and his performance against the champ wasn’t one where they could reasonably give him a rematch. Again, you think that they are abandoning all sporting princinples. It’s not an either or issue. There are shades of gray. That said, the UFC will get Brock a title shot as quick as they think the fans will allow it. But that’s a BUSINESS decision moreso than an entertainment. Cain and JDS are exciting fighters.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
you're claiming they're more entertainment based than they are
when it’s fundamentally a sports mentality they have, with an absolutely appropriate amount of entertainment influence. They’re the proper shade of grey.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
They are more towards entertainment than the sporting aspect in many ways and that’s why theyv’ve become so popular so fast.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know about that
they’ve struck the right balance. The best fighters fight for belts mostly. if they were entertainment oriented this wouldn’t be true.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
They've struck a good balance to make money for themselves now
But they’re looking at the short money, rather than the long money. They’re essentially in the business of sales. They need TV (more TV) to sustain.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
And there it is
You still think a network deal is the be-all end-all. Get with the times, man.
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by Derek Suboticki on Dec 22, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
No I don't think a network deal is the "end all/be all"
but the UFC is in the business of SALES. People only want to buy stars. The UFC isn’t/can’t make stars in the pure PPV model.
To wit, fans aren’t going to pay to see someone grow. Ask Frankie Edgar. The UFC needs a TV base where their athletes can be seen on a regular basis. It’s the same reason boxing will be hurt when Manny/Money retire. They used to be on TV all the time and you could watch fighters progress. UFC is in that same dilemma.
No one said anything about a “network” deal. I’m talking TV time period.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 3:05 AM EST up reply actions
You are so wrong, it's unbelievable.
Kimbo was cut because he was eye gouging Mitrione while he was in the triangle and the UFC wouldn’t stand him being a blatant cheater. It killed the storyline of “streetbrawler to real mixed martial artist” because he was streetfighting in the cage. That’s what really happened.
I’m only responding to you this time to offer a plea. Stop talking with an absolute voice like you know things. It’s misleading to MMA fans and disingenuous. You can dress for the job you want, but don’t pretend you already have it.
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by pdl on Dec 21, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Uhh, most of what I say is my opinion unless I say otherwise
The same as anyone else here. It’s redundant and repetitive to say “I think” all the time.
Do you have a quote from Dana or another source that directly ties his eye gouge of Matt to his being cut? And specifically that it “didn’t fit the storyline”?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
The storyline was my add.
Mario Yamasaki confirmed the cause of Kimbo’s dismissal on Chad Dukes’ and Lavar Arrington’s radio show over the summer (106.7 The Fan, same station as Luke). Demian Maia and Kenny Florian were also on the show that day I believe.
You’re a writer on an SBNation blog. That means all of your words carry some, albeit limited, credibility. And when you post things as though they were fact, you abuse that priviledge.
Kimbo was cut because his draw ran out. Believe that
It had nothing to do with him winning or losing. His fight against Alexander was boring and he wasn’t a draw after losing to Roy on the show, so he would be cut after his first loss. They only gave him a fight on the finale to milk one last rating out of him and that’s why they put him in with the "exciting" Alexander, knowing it wouldn’t go to the ground.
You don’t talk like it’s your opinion, you talk as though you know something or have some information. So, as a fan who prefers other fans be educated and not misled, please be more clear what is opinion and what are things you actually know. As somebody who prefers to see MMA coverage improve, please be more careful with your phrasing and make sure you seperate your opinion/commentary from facts of a story.
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by pdl on Dec 21, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Respeito.
I gotcha. But on the actual occasion that I do have information, I usually indicate such along with source of info. (That differs from anything I write in a post/article).
The sentence about Alexander and the reason for the fight is common knowledge though. Also, he was IMO (and the opinion of other farther in the know) going to be cut after his first loss anyway after the Alexander debacle. There was much scuttlebutt that White wanted to cut them both which was buttressed by the Finale numbers (IIRC less people watched his fight with Houston than his fight with Roy). IMO the eye gouge is a scapegoat.
But I see your point. I shall not make liberal use of IMO and I think.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Kimbo was cut because he was eye gouging Mitrione while he was in the triangle and the UFC wouldn’t stand him being a blatant cheater. It killed the storyline of "streetbrawler to real mixed martial artist" because he was streetfighting in the cage. That’s what really happened.
…that’s…not what really happened at all.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 22, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
I got more than one reliable person telling me that story.
I’d be happy to know what you heard though.
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They weren’t happy about it. But he wasn’t worth the investment in time, money or effort. They couldn’t move him to the undercard but they couldn’t keep pushing him on the main card. He was basically worthless. The “eye gouge” factored in, and it may have allowed them to use it as a “reason” but he was useless at that point. Regardless of if his total “draw” was gone, they couldn’t use him in a functional way.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 22, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Like I said, that might be a scapegoat or the story told
but I don’t believe it.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
I really don’t give a shit what you think, but you said it doesn’t count because it’s not analogous, just like the 1500 examples i gave the last time you tried this charade.
But just to confirm, reigning coach of the year fired = sport, but -300 favorite getting his ass kicked and not trying to win the 3rd round gets cut= not a sport, right?
yea i remember that discussion
unless im remembering another separate incident of course, which is possible.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
What examples did you give? Refresh my memory
This guy was 19-26 in his last 4 seasons. He couldn’t recruit worth shit. He happened to have a decent season this year. however, there’s a better coach on the horizon that’s free and they decided to let him go. He wasn’t let go due to his “boring style”. He was let go because a) he had a poor recent record and b) he couldn’t recruit. Both of which are KEY parts of a college football coach’s job.
Cutting a guy based on his one performance when he was a winner in each oh his last fights is ridiculous and not comparable.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not going to refresh your memory, because I know they are not analogous your planet, so I don’t need to waste everyone’s time.
So poor prior performance followed by good performance and getting fired is OK, but good prior performance then shitty performance getting fired is not OK.
Again, must be nice on your planet.
by Phildo on Dec 21, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like how you eliminate LENGTH of poor performance
Three seasons of shitty performance and a good performance while there has been talk of firing you since the beginning of the season and this was basically a lame duck season since the summer and getting fired is understandable.
Going 3-0 with two KO of the nights and all your fights being stoppages and then one fight in which you got tired and performed shitty and then getting fired isn’t understandable. I mean that’s pretty simple to understand. Even still, I’m not as upset about the Harris firing. It’s just the UFC being the UFC.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
In college football, they don't have the iron clad super contracts the UFC does
They can’t just let someone go without it having an affect on future recruiting.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
That’s fine. I’m not saying the guy shouldn’t be fired. I’m saying that it makes no sense to use Harris as an example of “not a sport” and then say this is not an example, because they are the same thing, except one happened after a bigger failure (and it wasn’t the college football one).
They wanted to fire him after the three years of failure, but they had a recruiting process.
Plus, the coach they wanted wasn’t available.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
It's a good thing you don't run the UFC
I like my planet better
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you and Dill run this "planet" gimmick into the ground
Y’all are like lil’ cute twins.
The Planeteers. That’s y’alls new name.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
we're the planeteers
you can be one too. cause saving our planet is the thing to do. looting and polluting is not the way. heres what captain planet, has to say.
The power is yours!
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
yes, yes you are
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
That poor guy
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
that was all from memory
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you about Friedgen
In modern college football, you can’t have decade-long lapses without conference titles at a large school in a major conference and expect job security.
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Anthony "Sizzler" Johnson
That one Billy Joel song
Anthony Pettis’ ninja kick
by Anthony Pace on Dec 21, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don't care how amazing or technically talented players are
if it bores me, I’m not watching. Ever since I started heavily watching MMA, everything else just bores me, which is why I haven’t seen a hockey / football / basketball game in years. And I’ve never watched baseball for obvious reasons.
Entertainment really is the driver behind why we watch all sports. You might find baseball boring, but having played it my whole life I find parts of it entertaining others would not. I do not doubt soccer players are good athletes, but that sport bores me to no end. People might not like Jon Fitch and his style…and that doesn’t mean they appreciate MMA less or anything like that. Its all about entertainment to some degree.
Oh man, Soccer
That stuff puts me to sleep. Like you, I can appreciate the talent and skill, but I’d rather watch paint dry. Funny enough, I enjoy playing all sports, including baseball. But playing it is different than watching it or paying to watch it.
Different strokes for different folks
I’m entertained by small things like a pitcher lapping the mound in the late innings of a game.
The Hall of Anthony:
Myself
Anthony "Sizzler" Johnson
That one Billy Joel song
Anthony Pettis’ ninja kick
by Anthony Pace on Dec 21, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
even though Hawaii and the NJ Devils neutral zone trap are better examples than Friedgen’s complete inability to recruit and losing ACC record over the past 7 years
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
everyone else cares about football, and the article uses a misleading example to play into Luke’s agenda of disassociating MMA from pro wrestling, and you, as well as other people who are starved for confirmation of that idea, are eating up incomplete facts because they echo what you want to hear.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
na
I will say .. I have no care for football one bit. don’t watch. most of my girl friends care much more than me.
but I didn’t play in school.. since my dad has blown out knees from the sport and didn’t want me to suffer the same fate.
I think MMA more than other popular sports will have “alternative fans” fans that don’t fit the standard (ESPN jock like) look attitude and preferences.
I think that is because alot of “hardcore” mma fans are white collar IT types that probably didn’t play football in high school instead but that is just a guess.
My “Who the hell cares about football” comment was rather tongue and cheek, but its true I’m taking Luke’s word on the significance of this firing.
But on to point two. I don’t yearn for separation from Pro Wrestling particularly. Actually the connection between the two sports is fascinating and deserves some study on a free weekend or collection of afternoon. However, Luke seems to believe that connections between pro wrestling and modern North American MMA begin with presentation and payment method, and end short of content as pdl says. I think that’s a damn good point.
and i agree with Luke about the validity of MMA as pure sport just as much as mainstream sports, but it would be better for everyone if he used a much more valid example to support the argument
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Certain people confuse presentation with content.
Some people are dumb enough to argue that keys to a new car and a dog turd are similar gifts if wrapped in the same paper. The content of MMA is a sport, even if presented with the same window dressing as the dog turd that is pro wrestling.
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Sweet.
I’ve always suspected it to be true, but because I don’t follow other sports very closely, I’ve never been able to articulate it. Great read.
"You son of a bitch, give me my plunger back."
- welterweight contender Josh Koscheck
What I took away from this article is not that MMA is more of a pure sport than it is “sports entertainment.” What I took away is that all sports (P.S. – college football is technically not a for-profit sport, since the teams are part of a not-for-profit organization, i.e. universities) are more like “sports entertainment” (pro wrestling) than most of us like to admit.
I also don’t know much about football, but I suspect 74-50 and 8-4 are good but not great records and that there is some other coach out there they can hire and expect him to do better. That’s different from him going 124-0 and 12-0 but firing him because he’s boring… which could still happen if nobody cares enough to but a ticket, but it’s not the situation here.
Sports today are “sports entertainment,” whether we like it or not. “Boring” sports in the Olympics that nobody cares about get aired in crappy spots, and “exciting” sports get aired in good spots, even if tape-delayed (much to the ire of fans of those sports, just like people who want HDnet and UFC to air everything live, even it’s at 3am or 3pm, respectively).
Finally, let’s be honest… MMA does still – and always will – have a closer relationship to other pro sports. And it’s because MMA emerged from pro wrestling. Just ask Snowden for the history.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 6:36 PM EST reply actions
but I suspect 74-50 and 8-4 are good but not great records and that there is some other coach out there they can hire and expect him to do better.
those numbers are also highly skewed by Ralph’s first 3 years at 31-8, which was accomplished with somebody else’s recruits and when Ralph had a real offiensive coordinator who called the plays for him.
in the last seven years he has a losing conference record
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Isn't Luke's point even less relevant then?
Sounds like he sucked and was given one last chance but didn’t meet the necessary standard to stick around.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
read my post above. as well as my convo with castleeb
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Last paragraph should be ...
Finally, let’s be honest… MMA does still – and always will – have a closer relationship to professional wrestling than other pro (and amateur, as in college football) sports. And it’s because MMA emerged from pro wrestling. Just ask Snowden for the history.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
8-4 is mediocre, and playing in bowl games is an irrelevant statistic given that about half of D1 does it now. If the school is looking for results after several years of development and doesn’t get it, then he gets canned. He has no argument that the division was too tough. The ACC is a basketball conference. They suck at football. VT is the BCS rep and they lost to a FCS team (basically: Not Division 1).
Seriously, trying to separate a FOOTBALL story from the actual FOOTBALL and taking a quote out of context to try and prove the point looks like borderline trolling. Did mmalogic ghostwrite this?
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 21, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
College football is also not a professional sports
It’s in the sales business to gain donations.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He used the term "for-profit"
and I responded. Not-for-profit organizations bring in tons of money, and I won’t deny it. But if you choose to use the term, you should use it correctly. Olympic athletes also get compensated financially for participating in “amateur” sports.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you buddy.
I was adding that caveat that college is not a professional sport.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, ok...
I thought you were trying to imply that the fundraising aspect of college sports makes them “for-profit” is some sense. I agree with that, but it’s still technically not-for-profit, even with the financial incentives in place.
Sorry for the confusion.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Luke Luke Luke
In football they wear helmets.
Clearly there are no parallels with MMA where the fighters do NOT wear helmets.
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by Nate Wilcox on Dec 21, 2010 6:39 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
You have a great point, and then dull it by using
College Football. A “sport” where schools will pay shitty teams to be on their schedule, where the schools who can pay the most without getting caught will get the best athletes (Cam Newton, Reggie Bush, many other examples), where nobody can definitively say who the best team is year to year because they lack a playoff system, where hundreds of schools START the year with no shot at a title…
I think you could have made a better argument using one of the 3 major sports as an example.
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Dec 21, 2010 6:43 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
His point was fine
regardless of your distaste for the BCS lol….
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
yea no disagreement from me.
In a recent post somewhere about MMA fans caring too much about rankings, someone said something about other fanbases not caring this much, and I said that is true for other sports that have authentic playoffs and seasons, but college football is like MMA in that the popularity contest matters, thus in CFB the obsession with rankings is similar to our own.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
You mean college football teams "fight cans"?
:) Had to say it, and I love that it’s true. The other related point is in merchandising. I know the FSU-Miami rivalry is big, and a few years ago there was a “Fuck U” shirt where the U was the Miami version (colors and all). Schools actually license their logos for that crap – so it’s legit merchandise – because it brings in cash.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that college football is a bad sport to use to try and prove your point.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
This is a great article
Indeed, the constant comparisons to team sports with regimented playoff systems and regular seasons is nuasiating. As is the comparisons of the UFC to the NFL, NBA, MLB etc(leagues comprised of 30 plus separate entities in a federation)
There is far too much oversensitivity from MMA fans who don’t want the comparisons to the WWE. Boxing has always had the same pressures that MMA has to entertain.
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how is it a great article when there are incomplete facts and a quote from John Feinstein who is a complete Friedgen loyalist? it’s a great point, with terrible supporting information, not a great article
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
His point is solid
Dude was fired for more than just competitive reasons. You’re letting your home-team bias and opinion influence what you’re reading.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
The fans weren’t coming because he hadn’t won for a while, not because he was boring when he was winning. Those first 3 years, everything was sold out. One 8-4 year after 4 out of 6 years of losing seasons ain’t enough to bring the fans back. it has nothing to do with being boring while winning, just now winning
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
*not winning
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Point is only solid if...
they hire a guy who they expect to go 6-6 but have really exciting games. My guess is they go for a guy who they expect to go 9-3 or better. That gets them into better bowl games and gets more money from sponsors. But it’s not like MMA has an equivalent, like being on the main card (or main/co-main events) and having your sponsors’ logos be on live TV… oh, wait, they have exactly the equivalent.
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Is anybody actually arguing anymore that MMA isn't a sport?
I haven’t heard that argument seriously advanced by any credible source for a long time. And if any “credible” source did put forth that argument, I’d have to question their credibility. MMA and boxing emphasize entertainment, but the physical condition and competitive spirit required by the two major combat sports in this country are equal to or greater than any of the more popular sports in this country.
I think SC Michaelson was
hanging his “trolier than thou” hat on something along those lines recently, wasn’t he?
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Hey buddy
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
hai
hey what were you saying tho, didn’t you argue MMA isn’t a sport or something?
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I believe I said "credible" sources.
by Jay Smith on Dec 21, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Haven't seen anyone argue MMA isn't a sport
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
LOL touche
Gold
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
MMA is in the business of entertaining sports.
So is boxing.
It’s very sporting as in it requires tremendous physical abilities and is competition.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
My face when my school was mentioned on this site
But joking aside, good article.
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I had
the same reaction.
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by s.r.genovese on Dec 21, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't the entire purpose of a shot clock in basketball to keep it interesting for the fans?
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by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 21, 2010 6:51 PM EST reply actions
It comes into play for the same reasons MMA now has judges (originally didn’t) and 5 minute time limits to rounds. It only really became an issue when some coaches realized that without a shot clock, you could try to win 2-0 games by holding onto the ball for as long as possible.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 21, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
yes, but its different. when basketball was invented, they didn’t expect teams to just play keep-away. certain teams just started playing keep away just to get wins, and other teams and players (in the majority) were just as outraged as fans. shot clock was invented because that shit was destroying basketball from the inside out, not just because of the fans
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
so i guess my answer should have actually been “no”
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
One big giant hole in your argument, Luke
If in the NFL a team is like Jon Fitch, where they keep winning but in less then crowd pleasing fashion, they still get to the Superbowl no matter what. They don’t get one shot at the Superbowl, lose and then get blackballed by the commissioner for reaching the next Superbowl because they’re boring.
by KJ Gould on Dec 21, 2010 6:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
he didn't say every sport was completely identical to MMA in this way
And fitch went to the superbowl and got his ass destroyed anyway
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
MMA isn’t a sport when compared to the majority. Neither is Boxing for the most part. Prize Fighting is in it’s own separate realm.
No
This is entirely wrong. MMA is just a different kind of sport.
Wiki;
A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skillful activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner can be defined by objective means. It is governed by a set of rules or customs. In sports, the key factors are the physical capabilities and skills of the competitor when determining the outcome (winning or losing).
Dictionary.com;
1.
an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
none of the other near 30 definitions listed would include the NFL or other sports and exclude MMA or boxing.
Thus MMA isn’t a sport where others are only inside your own universe where you redefine “sport” to fit some definition that is nonexistent in real universe.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
The majority of pro sports work almost entirely on tournament formats to crown champions
And the winner is the winner, no matter how boring they were to get there. MMA stopped being a sport ironically when tournaments stopped for the safety of the fighters involved. Bellator is the closest thing to MMA as a sport with its tournament structure, and to an extent the Japanese Grand Prixs too for MMA and K1.
MMA, Boxing and other pro combat sports, as I said, are in a different realm. And when you consider the majority of promoters aren’t interested in pushing a successful sports business, but really a successful Pay Per View and Live Event business, it’s hard to claim the same legitimacy as the other ‘true’ sports.
Your definition of a sport
that doesn’t exist elsewhere. Thank god the rest of us work off real word and real definitions, and not stupid ass concepts we redefine ourselves when ever the fuck we feel like it.
College football isn’t a real sport either then? Neither is the rider cup and any other invitational tournaments right?
The sport of MMA can strictly be boiled down to winning and losing inside the cage. The sport could exist without a champion at all in that sense. It’s a sport no matter how many definitions you make up.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
It's a sport in that regard
And college ergo amateur sports are different to pro sports still.
Luke used the analogy of Football, but it’s an inadequate method of comparison since Football belongs with a different set of sports. Basketball, Baseball, Hockey, Snooker, Tennis etc
Some tournaments aren’t decided by elimination either, but on aggregate scoring over the course of the season.
Prize Fighting is still its own entity.
yea, but it IS a sport.
Just a different type. That is all I needed you to admit. Thanks.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Either you're obtuse or you don't understand
His point isn’t that it isn’t a sport, it’s that it isn’t a sport like football, baseball, basketball are sports. There are differing types. MMA is more akin to pro prize fighting.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
MMA is pro prize fighting...
in the strictest sense. It’s not akin to what it is. You are not akin to a mammal. You are a mammal.
Anyway, that was my point, not his ;
MMA isn’t a sport when compared to the majority. Neither is Boxing for the most part. Prize Fighting is in it’s own separate realm.
MMA stopped being a sport ironically when tournaments stopped for the safety of the fighters involved.
These are his comments.
MMA is a sport. There is no possible way that exists to frame it as something other than a sport when football and baseball are. That is a false dichotomy that just doesn’t exist. Santa Claus. I understand what he meant, he was just entirely wrong in the way he chose to argue it. Prize fighting is as much a sport as anything else, it’s just different. There is no way you can say from any perspective it’s not a sport. He said that. I corrected him.
Talk about obtuse….
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
MMA is a sport in the sense that it involves competition and physical abilities
No one is denying that. I was telling you what he MEANT based on his other statements. You seemed to want to focus on one statement. I wanted the discussion to move on.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
you wanted to disagree with me for the sake of and throw a veiled insult
cause thats how you roll when someone disagrees with you in another post. No biggie. You bein you. We’re used to it.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well. I offered a choice. And it was clear you didn't understand
So you aren’t obtuse. :)
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
oh, dag, cageside seats
Now I get why you’re trying to make MMA pro wrestling.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Never mentioned pro wrestling
But I did mention Boxing. And UFC events are run more similarly to music ones then sports.
Be careful to notate the difference between a "sport" and "sports entertainment/entertaining sport"
MMA is an “entertaining sport” in that it is a competition and does require physical abilities. MMA is primarily in the business of entertaining sports.
Oh and kickboxing still uses tournaments.
Seems like this was written to say “HAI, we aren’t like pro wrestling at all”.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
But those tournaments are primarily all based on entertainment, so what is really the point.
The NFL Championship tournament is going to involve a shit ass team from the NFC west and exclude either the Giants or the Packers because of entertainment reasons. People really need to drop this “not a sport” shit, it’s garbage.
That’s not really based on entertainment. The rules are set up so that there are divisional winners. It’s not a decision made based on entertainment. No one is more entertained by a bad team with a smaller fanbase than they would be by a better team making it
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 21, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
yea brent you're totally right here
but the absence of the rules and a rigid playoff or seasonal structure for a sport like fighting doesn’t make us not a sport, agree?
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Oh...MMA is absolutely a sport...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 21, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
But the divisions are designed in a matter to make it so rivals play each other twice a year to fill stadiums and get good ratings. How is that not because of entertainment?
yea mostly but their geographically based largely
Dallas and Washington being a major exception. But normally the division winners are the best, most deserving teams. That’s how the system is designed to work anyway. That is the point I think he was making.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
But they aren’t completely geographically based. And part of the reasoning for the rule being this way instead of just having conferences or just taking the best 12 teams to the playoffs is to make a december game between a 6-8 team and a 5-9 team matter, because the division winners getting the playoffs is going to make this weeks game between The Rams and the 49er a hell of a lot more entertaining, because it matters.
this season isn't reflective of how the nfl usually breaks down though
I still get what you mean though
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
yea, but the divisional thing always has little impacts. If it’s not teams with much better records getting left out, it’s getting in with better records because they got to play the lions twice while someone else had to play the saints twice.
The other sports have more structure than the UFC, but entertainment plays a huge role in forming that structure. They are also able to have that structure because they can have 16, 82, 162 game seasons.
If the UFC was able to do more 1 night tournaments or get through tournaments on some sort of reliable schedule without injuries mucking them up, I would look for more structure, but they can’t, so they have to play with the cards that they are dealt.
Yea, this aint Tennis
it doesn’t take weeks to heal from a match with Roger Federer.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
other sports change the rules over time
to push certain styles of play also.
"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."
by Broke Lesnar on Dec 21, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Just replying to myself
so I can add how absolutely ridiculous I think that K.J. Gould’s argument is.
Sport – the best usually end up facing the best for a championship after progressing through a tournament / season based on results leading up to that point.
UFC – the best usually end up facing the best, providing Dana White hasn’t thrown a tantrum, or wants to protect certain investments and couldn’t bare the thought of an unmarketable champion even though on a technical level they could achieve that status.
Fair enough
You don’t like Dana White… That doesn’t make MMA (not UFC) any less of a sport. It just makes UFC an imperfect professional governing body.
Majority of promoters have similar outlooks though
I dare say none of them are really treating their brand as a sport, so is it any wonder when the mainstream media at large won’t either?
did people take the ifl seriously?
The lack of schedule is not what cause the media to not take it seriously, they don’t take it seriously because they are old farts that don’t like seeing people get kicked in the head.
It is not feasible to have any of the things you are looking for when under perfect conditions participants can have 4 “games” a year. And having a feasible/sustainable business model is important to survival, so those things should take precedence over your questionable definition of sport. Especially when all the other “sports” that you point to as ideal use business and entertainment motives when satisfying your requirements as well.
Wow.
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by Derek Suboticki on Dec 21, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
So did the Bills
And they went back 3 more times.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Fitch hasn't deserved a shot since then
Not when there are guys like Condit and Shields around. Not when Fitch hasn’t shown a single shred of evidence that he’s any different of a fighter or a credible challenger to GSP.
Jon Fitch needs to fucking hurry up and get laid out so I can stop hearing sob stories about how horrible the UFC has done him.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
Fitch won a number 1 contendership match to get the next shot
Yet, he won’t get the next shot.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
and im glad
Jake is more deserving anyway. You could argue for Carlos Condit as well.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Jake hasn't done anything at 170 in 2 years
His last fight was abysmal. It’s just like Vitor getting a title shot without having fought in the UFC in 19 months or even fighting at that weight.
Ri-gotdamn-diculous.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
he beat kampmann, who was a top ten contender
In addition to paul daley and some above weight top ranked wins. Show me in whatever rule book that says title shots have to be earned by in-division wins. Fuck, I guess Pacman’s loads of titles may all be worthless too since he didn’t establish himself in those divisions. Whatever “establish” means.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
He beat him AFTER Fitch was awarded his number 1 title shot.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
HEY!
The Bills did not get their asses kicked in the first SB against the Giants.
/Bills fan
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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 21, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
name me the last truly fat coach that won something in the NFL or CFB
its rare
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
Mark Mangino , former Kansas coach, beat #5 Virginia Tech in the 2007 Orange Bowl, which was basically a 4th place game that year
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by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
so, a popularity contest game
but not the NC game. Would this team have won a tournament? It’s rare. Andy Reid fails to win due exclusively to his wheezing when he talks. My story, sticken to it.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
Roles Gracie in this post
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:05 PM EST reply actions
Fear the Turtle!
Nothing really to add, just felt it needed to be said. ;)
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by duck on Dec 21, 2010 7:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
word. ‘08. damn you’re old
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by eastcoastatlas on Dec 21, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Great Points, Luke.
Your example may not be perfect, but look at the shenanigans going on in college football and tell me that’s more of a “pure sport.” It’s an inherent problem with full contact sports that you don’t have enough games for everyone to play everyone like you do in baseball or basketball. The same goes for MMA, and promoters must skip some of the less interesting matchups, especially given how much different skillsets matter in MMA. You can easily see how a guy with good but not great striking and good takedown defense beats wrestlers, but loses to pure strikers, who lose in turn to the wrestlers. It’s very messy. Does MMA always give equal path to the Jon Fitches of the world? No, but that is at least in part due to the fact that he got facefucked for 5 rounds last time he fought Georges St. Pierre in one of the most lopsided matches of GSP’s career. In MMA, where people fight 2-3 times a year at the highest levels if they’re lucky, there’s just no room for boring matchups with predictable outcomes.
Great article, makes a good point, rec’d, etc.
Jon Fitch would consistently play for the BCS championship
and people would stop watching. I’m glad that Dana White has the sense to understand that Fitch-GSP VI would suck, even if it is the “best” match-up available. Instead, GSP can move up from being BCS champ or Heisman Trophy winner to try his luck in the NFL (just like happens all the time in college football). See how these analogies don’t always work?
by mma_critic on Dec 21, 2010 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Not if we had a playoff
Or maybe he would consistently play for the BCS Championship and it would be over by halftime.
Accustomed to mediocrity.
Whole article's premise is based on the opinion of one writer
The writer suggests that. There’s no official word from the higher ups. Furthermore, no one wants to play for him and he can’t recruit the bigger and better names. His record is .500 in the last few seasons. Fans wouldn’t come because he pretty much sucked the last few years. They went 2-10 lats year. 2-10. But that detail was dismissed in the editorial as “an anomaly”. They haven’t had a winning in conference record since 2005. They hadn’t made a major bowl since 2003. His first three seasons were off the back of the recruiting of the previous coach. Those are the reasons why he was fired, not his coaching style (which is applicable to fighting style in MMA).
I get your point, but bad example here. Let’s find another one.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 7:17 PM EST reply actions
It isn't him
Md in general has problems recruiting the blue chippers. This area has a bit of a bandwagon complex. Duke gets a bunch of the local talent.
Root for the home team jack ass
Their is a huge variable
With the Redskins 5 miles down the street its the equivelent of fighting the night before Lesnar every time you fight. Even Mike Leach is going to have this issue. It is the reason Md football always lags behind Md basketball in fan praticipation.
Root for the home team jack ass
i don’t really watch football but lived in the area for years.. It seems that whole area suffers from “what are you going to do for me lately” syndrome.. the fans get hyper for the game every sunday. .. but say their team is trash every other monday.
They love their team but want to change out the coach, qb whatever so fast that the team never gels into a real team.
and I’m comparing that to Giants fans.. who like every NY based team sport takes lots of heat .. but the call for a new coach doesn’t happen near as often.
Great post Luke
This is just one example. Of course all professional sports take fan enthusiasm and interest into account with business decisions including but not limited to hiring firing personnel. Are you MMA=Sports Entertainment proponents going to deny that NFL, MLB and NBA teams don’t consider star power when making acquiring players and coaching staff?
This seems like a no brainer to me, but as Luke correctly points out pro wrestling converts seem to overreach consistently in their comparisons of MMA to WWE. Do they also consider boxing to be based on the pro wrestling model?
ding
Boxing promotion is very much like pro wrestling — or is pro wrestling like boxing? Boxing must not be a real sport then ><
Promotion is similar, yes...
but wrestling itself isn’t a sport. I think that’s the difference.
Excellent, excellent piece.
“Pure sport” is akin to “free market”. It doesn’t exist. It’s impossible.
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by Derek Suboticki on Dec 21, 2010 9:14 PM EST reply actions
Who cares about the Maryland analogy?
How the hell is MMA not a sport? Will someone explain to me how the entertainment-driven actions of the professional governing body of a sport means that the activity itself isn’t a sport?
I saw an argument above that sports have a tournament format (or at least some objective way to crown a champion), and for that reason, MMA and boxing aren’t sports. That’s absurd. If I play a pickup football game with my friends for fun, I’m playing a sport. If I spar 6 rounds with a teammate in the gym, I’m engaging in sport.
This is all Dave Meltzer’s fault somehow.
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by David Bixenspan on Dec 21, 2010 9:46 PM EST reply actions
So what’s the pure sport? Olympic games? Everything is in the graph with sport and entertainment as the axis. MMA has a lot of both. If it had less of one it might be collegiate wrestling or BJJ tournaments. Less of another, it would be WWE. I’m never going to watch pro wrasslin but I know MMA uses some of its tools. So does every other sport.
I imagine fights at the Colosseum
were marketed with what we here in this century think of as “pro wrestling tools”.
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by Urijah Bieber on Dec 21, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
No such thing as a "pure sport" in Capitali$tic America
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
The more I understand this entire argument....
The more I think it’s the most asinine argument I’ve ever heard.
It's a silly argument
It’s basically one started by the elitists of MMA who don’t want to acknowledge that they are much closer to professional wrestling than they are to the NBA and the NFL.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
But pro wrestling isn’t a sport at all. Neither is Cirque de Soleis. They are both choreographed entertainment shows that require physical ability; they just reach different audiences. MMA is a sport; it just reaches an audience that significantly overlaps with pro wrestling.
Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
It can be argued that Pro wrestling IS a sport, just one with pre-determined results. It is very physically rigorous and does adhere to a set of rules and customs. It’s just a sport that leans much more heavily to the entertainment side of things. Farther in that direction than any other sport.
There’s nothing in the definition of a sport that says it has to, at all times, be non-predetermined.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 21, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
I’m sure soap operas only keep the talented or attractive actors. Pro wrasslin is the extreme that we can only use to put things in perspective.
Soap operas keep around whoever does what they want the character to do
All the acting is bad.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
"often engaged in competitively"
I suppose the word “often” allows you to sneak in things like pro wrestling, which aren’t engaged in competitively but are completely pre-determined. But I personally think it stops becoming a sport where there is no competition. And in wrestling, there is no competition, aside from maybe coming up with better catch phrases.
But there is competition, just not how you think
You compete with other wrestlers to “get over”. There are worked MMA matches, does that take away from MMA?
PW is just a sport that HIGHLY favors entertainment rather than objectiveness.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Nope...
Pro wrestling doesn’t “highly favor” entertainment over objectiveness (and it’s not a sport… sorry)… there is absolutely no objectiveness, just entertainment.. and please give me an example of a worked MMA match that is part of the accepted course of business.
Are you really asking for examples of worked MMA matches?
All I’m saying is that according the dictionary definition of a sport (which is what people were posting to say MMA is a sport), pro wrestling can be considered one too.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
I have a similar feeling, but
the fact that Jon Fitch never gets to fight GSP again makes it the whole argument kinda meh. To avoid the pro wrestling comparison there has to be a path to a championship fight that the promoter cannot manipulate.
What they do with title fights is basically like an NFL divisional playoff where the Jags beat the Jets and the Colts beat the Pats, but they choose the Colts because they can score more TDs. Or they might not even let the Colts enter the playoffs for a year because they just lost the Superbowl the previous year.
That being said, I think that the whole pro-wrestling angle is not lost on the stick n ball sports. The star teams and players get more money, more endorsements, rules changed in their favor, and more coverage (that leads to more money).
Today I listed to Cowherd and he talked about wanting an Eagles/Pats Superbowl, because ‘no one’ would want a Jag/Eagles Superbowl. Him and other talking heads talk about how certain big market teams winning is “good” for the sport. They always stop short of saying that the leagues should control the outcomes of games, but they might as well be.
Point is, that this kind of promotional attitude is widespread among all sports.
The NFL doesn’t pick “star teams” nor does any other league. Established, regularly contending teams are such because of smart personnel decisions and management. If the pro sports leagues out there has as much pull as is being argued here, Dan Snyder would have been forced to sell the Redskins to someone competent years ago.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 22, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
I'm talking about the attitude, not the actual practice
Maybe/Probably all that didn’t make sense but I did say that the fact that UFC arbitrarily decides the matchups is what keeps the pro wrestling comparison alive. Stick and ball sports champions are win-loss based but that doesn’t mean that the promotional concerns aren’t there. And I’m not even trying to say that stick n ball is like pro-wrestling — more that the line pro wrestling line that people like to draw between the UFC and stick n ball sports is a little more grey than they’d like to think.
Overall I’d like the UFC to stick by their guarantees regarding title fights regardless of the outcome.
The UFC has no actual “structure” that most sports have. It doesn’t even have a rankings system like boxing sanctioning bodies. That, combined with the content of the sport, invite such criticism.
by VirtualBalboa on Dec 22, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Anyway
MMA isn’t a sport, neither is boxing, or college football.
But only MMA is comparable to pro wrestling. Gotcha.
The article is great and the discussion under it is hilarious. Does it mean that MMA blogging isn’t a real sport because I was entertained by this?
People are so fun :D
No but people love to say MMA blogging isn't real journalism because they take others' news
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 22, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
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