My take on the debate, Silva still world's best.
by NCSAR on Dec 13, 2010 9:55 AM EST
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Who is the world’s best pound for pound fighter? What a difference a few days, one fight, and hype will do for a ranking. George St. Pierre is without a doubt the best Canadian fighter ever. He is arguably the most popular Canadian sports star since Wayne Gretzky, but does a decision win over Josh Koscheck put him in rarefied air as the world’s best?
The link is to MMAOpinion where more is posted.
I think not!
This is like asking who would you rather have at QB Peyton or Tom…There really is no wrong answer. Peyton….
To help us determine the P4P best, we will look at their last 5 fights.
GSP
1: Josh Koscheck by Unanimous Decision (UFC 124)
2: Dan Hardy by Unanimous Decision (UFC 111)
3: Thiago Alves by Unanimous Decision (UFC 100)
4: BJ Penn by TKO/ Ref Stoppage (UFC 94)
5: John Fitch by Unanimous Decision (UFC 87)
**GSP’s last loss was to Matt Serra (UFC 69, April 2007)**
1: Chael Sonnen by submission (UFC 117)
2: Demian Maia by Unanimous Decision (UFC 112)
3: Forrest Griffin by KO (UFC 101)
4: Thales Leites by Unanimous Decision (UFC 97)
5: Patrick Cote by Injury Stoppage (UFC 90)
**Silva’s last loss was to Yushin Okami due to illegal kicks (Rumble on the rock, January 2006)**
On paper the wins by GSP are better until you look at how the fight was finished. The largest chink (and its really not a fault) in GSP’s armor is that he doesn’t always finish fights. He is a very intelligent fighters that is more concerned with winning than highlights. Similar to an old school point guard, this is a great testament to his character and what he is attempting to accomplish as a Mixed Martial Artist.
Anderson Silva could have just been THAT much better than his competition. He rarely went to decision in this stretch and when he did it was because his challengerswere running from him! Sure, he was in deep trouble against Sonnen, but on paper all you see is a win. Champions find a way to win, and that is what he did.
What do you guys think? Can we learn anything by the records or is it an apple to orange comparison?
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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And not a mention of Silva’s last performance…
I got GSP just because of that, that was depressing to see Silva pinned down, hammered with cotton fists for 5 rounds. He came back that’s cool, but he still lost 4 rounds and got tagged multiple times by Chael fuckin Sonnen. That kind of performance isn’t worthy of a P4P #1, when in WW you got a guy that hasn’t lost a round since he started defending his belt. Silva used to be that guy but, I got to take into account bad performances. P4P lists aren’t something you can fuck with right.
They see me rollin...
by spectaa on Dec 13, 2010 10:52 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Not saying you are wrong or right
or that GSP or Silva is the best, but…
Wouldn’t you say overcoming that kind of adversity and against a fighter whose strength is Anderson’s biggest weakness, and still getting the win, is exactly what makes someone the greatest?
Look at Ali and some of the beatings he took, before pulling out wins. Matt Hughes is considered a great champion, but he won many very close fights. So on and so on.
Like I said, I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with either side, just that I think we should take into consideration how great it is to pull out a victory like that, when we have seen countless other fighters get demoralized and just give up when the tables are against them.
Overcoming adveristy my ass.
Im sick of guys throwing that around to defend their guy. Happened with Lesnar as well. Lesnar got his ass whooped for the first round, hung in there and came back to choke out a lifeless Carwin. Silva got his ass whooped for 4.5 rounds, hung in there and finally finished a guy with 8 losses by submission with a sloppy triangle. Its very convenient to just throw that around nowadays.
I don’t think Silva was ever number 1, just because Dana says it so doesn’t make it true. Fedor had that spot until he lost and GSP took the throne because of that.
by Menime on Dec 13, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Good argument but I still think Fedor holds that spot.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Dec 13, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, is this Greatest of All Time or #1 p4p?
Cuz if it is Greatest of all time I have Fedor all day.
Fedor = GOAT
until some one truly does better. Silva and GSP don’t come close.
But this is my very, small 2-cents and can be easily debated.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Dec 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely.
The only guy I could possibly pass him is maybe Shogun if he succesfully defends his title 3 more times. GsP could to if he moves up and puts a beatdown on Silva.
I'd say GSP is close, especially considereing the level of competition
But I’ll agree that he isn’t there yet.
In case you didn’t read it, Silva is not my guy.
I never said he was #1.
I was actually rooting against him.
What I said was, that we see guys get dominated and they just give up and get demoralized. Silva and other champions have to have that to be considered great.
I appreciate you trying to make some point, but giving a fighter props for hanging in and not giving up, should never be dismissed.
by BJJDenver on Dec 13, 2010 12:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't understand the "overcoming adversity" argument at all
I meant the argument is basically suggesting this:
GSP has to become a worse fighter so that he gets into trouble, because that will prove he’s a better fighter.
WTF? He already came back against Penn when he was a worse fighter. What else can he do?
by Mint on Dec 14, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s funny that people are talking about how Chael Sonnen got the best of an injured Anderson Silva. Let’s not forget that a dehydrated Travis Lutter beat Silva for 1 round. Dan Henderson pinned Silva to the mat for 1 round.
So as you sit there and say, Chael-fuckin-Sonnen tagged him multiple times and how that performance takes him off the list. I’m wondering WHAT? Lesnar comeback victory against Carwin made him huge, even though it revealed what kind of competitor he truly is. Are we not forgetting what happened to GSP against Serra. He did not come back. He wilted. He discussed how mentally he was not focused, blah, blah, blah and eventually came back and defeated Serra.
Silva never wilted against competition in the UFC mentally. Silva lost rounds in the UFC. GSP lost a fight against a fighter who earned the title shot because of the TUF contest. Serra was his Travis Lutter.
Heck, even Matt Hughes gave Anderson Silva props for being mentally strong as a champion. Don’t get me wrong I don’t care about who’s better between GSP or Silva, and I think P4P is laughable. Hey, GSP, Matt Hughes and a number of other guys talked about going up in weight. Penn and Silva actually did it.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Dec 13, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
True dat
I think that if folks are going to point to GSP’s decision heavy record and note that what he did to Koscheck on Saturday was, in many ways, even worse than a quick KO, then they certainly need to give Silva props for winning injured against a juiced (sorry CSAC) Sonnen and taking the sub victory.
Also, while GSP outclassed Kos from start to finish, Anderson moved up to LHW to fight a RANKED Forrest Griffin. Silve didn’t just outclass him, it really looked like Silva was playing with a kid brother or a child. I’ve never seen GSP look that untouchable.
Rematches:
Something for fans to remember. GSP outclassed Koscheck a couple of years ago for 3 rounds. The fact that he did it for another 5 rounds does not impress me.
With that said, if Anderson Silva defeat Sonnen or Marquardt in a rematch, I will think to myself, wait-a-minute didn’t they make this movie already?
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Dec 13, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Its apples and oranges.
The lack of finishes doesn’t detract from the record.
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VEe is ANIMated!
For me
the one thing that separates Silva from GSP is the Forrest fight.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
The reason Silva's last opponent's seem "lackluster" is because he cleaned out his division faster by fighter more
Everyone moved up, moved out, or went down.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 13, 2010 2:40 PM EST reply actions
MW
is “weak” in the sense that it’s not a super deep talent pool but the guys at the top are legit. I think most of it’s perceived weakness comes from a lot of guys wanted to fight at 205 since it’s the glamor division.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Dec 13, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Fedor, Cain, JDS, Overeem, Werdum, Barnett, Bigfoot, Nelson, Mir(ew…)>Silva, Sonnen, Marquradt, Okami, Rich, Maia in terms of overall skills.
See I couldn’t match up the MW with as much HWs.
HW>MW no matter if it was back in PRIDE 2005 or UFC nowadays.
You've gotta be kidding
You can argue back and forth about who is better at the top, but the real telling stat about MW being a deeper and better division than HW isn’t in the top 10 but in the top 25 and the top 50 and the top 100 fighters at each weightclass.
HW has always attracted a lot of attention as there is something about seeing giant men fight that really captures an audience but HW is now and has always been the weakest division in the sport.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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Im not.
Take into account that the number 1 contender for the UFC MW belt has never fought at MW before, while HW has guys like Cormier and Del Rosario coming along nicely.
And top 10 is what matters most, and the fact is that the top 10 MWs can stack up to the top 10 HWs at all. Not even close.
MW title fights that saw Lutter, Cote, Maia, Marquardt, and Leites should be enough to proof to tell you how weak the division is. I mean really those guys challenging for a title? Come on now.
Wow
You manage to arbitrarily inflate the HW division while bashing some really good middleweights at the same time. You’ve upped your game.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Dec 15, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Maia, is one of my faves. Doesn’t change the fact that he is pretty one dimensional. Marquardt? Has always been inconsistent. Take a look at his record. Lutter, Cote and Leites have been cut. How is that bashing? Realistic is more like it.
Being cut
doesn’t always matter much. Nate was the king of pancrase, he is a very skilled and legit fighter. I honestly can’t believe anyone would suggest otherwise.
As for Maia, being one dimensional doesn’t mean he is sub par. Cro Cop was one dimensional and was a damn killer. It’s okay to be one dimensional if you’re that good at it.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Dec 16, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I was never really impressed by Nate. I think he has always failed to show up when the time comes.
And citing Cro Cop as one dimensinal is just wrong. He has great TD defense and great submission defense as well. He faced Barnett 3 time and did not get submitted. Fedor failed to submit him as well. Cro Cop is more well rounded than people give him credit for.
Cro Cop used to have good Takedown D , sure. It’s hard to rate his submission defense since he was so rarely on the ground with the guys you mentioned.
If we get to count that, we might as well count how good Maia is at taking people down. You’re entitled to your opinion about Nate, it’s just really strange to me.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Dec 17, 2010 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Mir failed to take CC down.
But just look at some of his old PRIDE fights and you’ll see. He trained BJJ with multiple time ADCC champ Werdum.
And as fot Nate look at his pre UFC record. 5 losses to Japanese guys with records like 34-24 or 16-18. I’ve never thought much of him. He’s well rounded but he just aint good enough.
Aldo???? Let’s see how he does in the UFC before we put him in the line up with The Spider, GSP and Fedor… Aldo said that him and Anderson are the best P4P fighters in the world.. That’s a huge kudos to yourself Mr. Aldo, Anderson is without a doubt one of the best MMA fighters I have ever seen in and outside the UFC promotion. GSP is growing as a fighter (a better fighter), he is so fluid from his feet work to his ground work, it’s a really cool thing to watch, but I do think he is an amazing MMA fighter. As for Fedor… seriously! it’s Fedor! He dosent me to be on Bloody elbow justifying why is is one of the best MMA figthers who has ever steped in to a ring.
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Let's see how he does in the UFC?
He’s fighting the exact same talent pool he was fighting in the WEC. How is the arbitrary change of promotion going to affect him as a fighter?
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I was with you until you used “P4P” in your poll.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 13, 2010 9:20 PM EST reply actions
Here is the reason why GSP is the best. Silva is a monster, a fucking monster….But Chael Sonnen exposed a huge whole in his game and that is wrestling. And by huge I mean gets taken down at will by a good wrestler with no striking. GSP on the other hand has showed no holes in his game. He out strikes strikers, he embarrasses wrestlers, and has become one hell of a grappler. I will give it to you that Anderson has a slight edge in the striking but I feel that is his only advantage. GSP can fight people who are the best in the world at their particular style and beat them at their own game. Anderson fights a good wrestler and gets taken down and humiliated for 4.5 rounds to finally pull of a miracle sub on a guy who is known to have terrible sub defence. So now who is the more talented more rounded fighter? Me thinks GSP.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
I'll agree that
GSP is more well rounded but Silva’s striking is a more powerful weapon than any of GSP’s. You say that he get’s taken down at will by anyone with decent wrestling but you might be basing things a little too much on the Sonnen fight, in which Silva was hurt. If you based a GSP analysis on the the Alves fight you would think he was a lame and shameless lay and pray guy but that’s not a good fight to judge because GSP was hurt. Silvas movement and striking accuracy have punished take down attempts over his career. The guy has looked like the matrix in all of this fights except the last one. Maybe he’s lost his edge but have a broader perspective than one fight.
by RightTriangle on Dec 14, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
The Alves fight made you think GSP was LnP?
There was almost no laying in that fight because Alves was so good at getting back up.
GSP also dropped Alves with punches (arguably twice). Nobody’s done that before.
After the Fitch fight, I was thinking that maybe Alves is overrated, but the Howard fight proved that he’s still a striking machine.
My biggest problem with Silva is that he needs flawed opponents
He won’t attack a guy laying on his back.
He won’t attack a grossly outmatched fighter on the feet unless he can counterstrike him.
He needs a fighter to bring the fight to him rather than taking it to his opponents.
These are not the hallmarks of the P4P #1 on the planet.
Then of course there’s the common argument that he was dominated by Sonnen. He needed Sonnen to leave himself wide open for a triangle, and didn’t create the opportunity to win with his own skills. It was a gift.
by Mint on Dec 14, 2010 12:05 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I agree. Silva is no where near as well rounded as GSP. He got tooled by Sonnen. Silva has ZERO wrestling and his stand up is only good when people fall into his game plan.
I also believe they should not fight each other for a couple reasons.
SIlva at natural walk around weight is like 40lbs heavier than GSP. (Yes I think if GSP was the same size as Silva or even close it would be a great fight)
It puts an ugly loss on someones record that could hurt their legacy.)
GSP needs to stay at WW until he retires.
Silva is a waste of GSP’s time. Silva needs to move to LHW where he truly belongs and how well he can do fighting people his size.
Just my 2 cents.
Silvas size
is 185
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Dec 14, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Silva's size is not in his mass
For the Maia fight, he said that he was something like 192 a week before the fight. When he balloons to 230 or whatever, those 40 lbs are fat. On fight night he’s barely any heavier than GSP.
Silva’s size is a factor in his reach, but at the same time that makes him a bit more vulnerable to being taken down and pinned down. GSP’s reach is pretty good as well, particularly with his technique.
Just to be clear
This never used to be the case. He’d go after dangerous guys like Franklin and Henderson.
Even with his recent non-aggressive style, I still like watching him fight, barring the bullshit we saw in the Maia fight. It’s just complete nonsense that people think GSP is safe and Silva is a finisher. He’s been a far safer fighter than GSP for a few years.
by Mint on Dec 15, 2010 3:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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