Georges St. Pierre's Dominance of Josh Koscheck Certifies Status as All-Time Greatest
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 3:34 PM EST
in UFC Analysis
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When we toss around phrases like "pound-for-pound best fighter on the planet" or "the all-time greatest mixed martial artist", there is still a sense of uncertainty as to whether we are truly witnessing a fighter who can embody that title. In other professional sports, there isn't much debate. Wayne Gretzky and Michael Jordan are considered the best to have ever played in their respective sports, and even major team sports like football have a predictable top ten of all-time greats. Those sports, however, have a long, storied history with immense popularity to reference while mixed martial arts has a relatively short lifespan.
Fedor Emelianenko was considered by many to be the greatest mixed martial arts fighter of all-time only a short time ago, and his consummate skillset in combination with his ferocity and survivability lends credence that the argument is a legitimate one. He does not possess a record that would suggest he was constantly battling the world's top fighters in his weight class however. One of the all-time best? Yes, but the all-time best? No.
Georges St. Pierre's dominating performance over Josh Koscheck last night solidified the stance that he is the greatest mixed martial artist of all-time. While there will surely be future stars in the sport who will threaten that claim, it will be difficult for anyone to surpass St. Pierre's accomplishments. Anderson Silva may have the edge when it comes to consecutive defenses, wins inside the Octagon, and length of reign as champion, but I'd argue that St. Pierre's title defenses have been far more impressive due to the strength of the competition he has faced.
Consider the opponents. St. Pierre has defeated two of the best welterweight fighters in the world in Josh Koscheck twice and Jon Fitch once. He's dominated Thiago Alves, Matt Hughes, and B.J. Penn over the course of the last three years. He's defeated every type of skill-set imaginable, whether it be NCAA Division I level wrestlers or wicked Muay Thai strikers. And he's done all of this while only losing twice... ever.
Some still believe that a super fight with UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva is a showdown that needs to happen to secure his spot as a legend of the sport, but that's a myth. In reality, St. Pierre has achieved legendary status already, and at only 29 years of age -- St. Pierre still has a number of years to continue his dominance at the top of the division while also branching out to challenge himself at middleweight.
The options that Joe Silva has at his disposal are limited. Fans don't want to see a second installment of Jon Fitch vs. Georges St. Pierre, and Jake Shields is the only fighter in the division with some attractiveness for fans. Unfortunately, he'll need to produce an impressive victory to get his shot, and Carlos Condit may have a better chance at ascending to a contender role over him.
I'd argue that Ben Askren, Bellator's welterweight champion, is the only intriguing fighter out there right now who could push St. Pierre to his limits. Koscheck's ability to stuff St. Pierre and actually put him on his back during last night's bout was an indication that St. Pierre isn't invincible in the wrestling department, and Askren's Olympic-level wrestling has transitioned to the sport seamlessly. That is the only fight left for St. Pierre that interests me in the slightest, with the exception of a showdown with Anderson Silva.
Anderson Silva could sit in the same category after his next few fights, but he also has the advantage of being able to move up to the UFC's light heavyweight division, a division that is scrutinized and celebrated heavily by fans and media alike. The popularity of the division in tandem with a successful run at the UFC light heavyweight title would overcome anything Georges St. Pierre has done, but right now -- Georges St. Pierre is the best fighter the sport has ever produced.
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He's only fought Fitch once.
Otherwise, excellent read. GSP/Askren would be interesting – could GSP stuff Ben well enough to keep it standing?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 3:37 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, I screwed that up. For some odd reason, I thought they fought twice.
Corrected.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Not yet, anyway
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it’s going to happen for sure. As a matter of fact, it will likely be his next defense. That gives Shields a chance to win a big fight.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Didn’t Dana say last night that Shields is next for sure? Thought I heard that..
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it’s gonna be GSP vs Shields. And besides, BJ is gonna beat Fitch anyways.
by Tech Fall 171 on Dec 12, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
I'm still deciding on that one
Interesting matchup for sure. My heard says BJ, my head says turtle-humping.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
My heart. Not my heard.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Well what does your heard say
You got me invested in what this mysterious piece of you thinks about this fight.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
My heard thinks
Frankie Edgar, 50-45
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
You know what they say
Think with your heard, not with your heat.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 8:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I'm exactly the same
It’ll be interesting to see if Fitch can just overwhelm BJ with takedowns & top control. BJ looked solid (physically) against Hughes, as long as he’s not out of shape then I think BJ has a very good chance of stuffing Fitch, boxing his ears off, and minimizing damage he takes on the ground.
The thing is, Fitch’s takedowns normally come off the fence, via attrition, but that’s where BJ’s takedown defense really shines IMO. The most successful way to take BJ down is by a lightning fast double leg set up by strikes, ala GSP & Edgar.
Also, BJ only really seems to lose to guys who are more versatile than him, someone who can use all 8 points standing, threaten with takedowns, defend takedowns, & threaten him on the ground. Because BJ, while quite well rounded, is really only mediocre with his takedowns, and standing really only uses his hands. Someone who can outmaneuver him and mix in kicks/ knees/ elbows into their attack can outstrike him, and that’s exactly what Frankie and Georges did.
Will Fitch be able to do that? I hope not, but Fitch is a fierce competitor, and the guy knows how to win. I’ll be rooting for Penn regardless.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Dec 12, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly
I think that Dana and Silva set his fight up for one reason IMO. While yes a compelling matchup, i really think they set this up because they want to see if putting BJ vs GSP one more time is a real possibility.
If we see BJ stuff Fitch’s takedowns, out strike him, take minimal damage on the ground and get back up if Fitch does take him down and win, we will see BJ/GSP 3 after GSP takes care of Shields.
Thats kind of my whole take on it. I mean i think Dana and Silva had this idea going into the Hughes fight, that if BJ got out of that fight with minimal damage, he was getting that Fitch fight.
Fitch vs Ellenberger, not much of a compelling fight for GSP if Ellenberger beat fitch. But definitely a great fight if either BJ or Fitch won and was set to face GSP. But again i believe what this fight is for, to see if putting a dominate wrestler like GSP up against BJ is even worth doing again.
They tried with Hughes but we know how that ended. So now they are bringing in Fitch, a more dominate wrestler, right up there with GSP, and we all know that Fitch is going for the TD 99.9% of the fight. We’ll see what BJs cardio looks like with a guy trying to hump him all fight.
Just my 2 cents. And being a BJ Penn fan, i hope he kills fitch and does get another fight with GSP
by xMMAxTYSONxMMA on Dec 12, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
God no
we need another GSP-Penn fight like we need another Tito-Shamrock fight.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Did you watch the last one?
Pretty sure we’ve seen how another one would go. GSP is 2-0 against him, I don’t think there’s anything to settle.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yep, did you watch the first one?
I personally saw it for Penn, it was a split decision. Would love to see a third fight
by Body Triangle on Dec 12, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
So you’re saying you think Penn has improved more since their first fight than GSP has? Cuz I’m pretty sure he hasn’t.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 8:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Penn won R1 – and basically spent R2 and R3 doing nothing. 29-28 GSP.
I don't know much - but I know that I don't.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 13, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
Not to mention that the one judge who gave it to Penn was none other than CECIL PEOPLES.
I don't know much - but I know that I don't.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Dec 13, 2010 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
Yes
but i want this fight to be grease free. Whether GSP knew it or not, it was an un-fair fight. I still think that GSP would have won, but still, i would like no if-ands-or buts about this one.
Phil Nurse knew exactly what he was doing, and i find it hard to believe none of the other coaches knew what was going on either. That shows me right there the fear they had in BJs ground game and how they were looking for any and all advantages over BJ, even if that means breaking the rules.
Im a GSP fan as well so i hope it wasn’t his idea or anything, but i know for a fact that Phil Nurse knew what he was doing. He’s been in the fight game for years and years, its MMA Cornering 101, you don’t put vaseline anywhere other than the face.
That being said, the first fight was very close and i believe that it was Penns decision IMO, could be a biased opinion on the decision, but i believe it was really close. Given that fight, forgetting about the grease, and taking into consideration the better camps and training BJ is doing now, i think it could be a great fight.
Hard to believe it being any different after yet another great performance from GSP lastnight, but i still think it would make for a great fight.
I hope it happens….
by xMMAxTYSONxMMA on Dec 12, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
Did you just compare Bj to Shamrock?
If so you are dead to me. DEAD!
lol
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
This was set up as most of the bigger UFC fights are: as a win-win for the matchmaking. Both BJ and Fitch want a second shot at GSP, both were dominated and need to make a strong case so that the UFC can sell that fight. This is the resume builder for one of them and the other will probably never get his 2nd chance before GSP moves up to MW.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
I’d like to see GSP vs Condit, I think Condit is the one guy who wont just give up after eating a few jabs to the face, he will go balls to the wall the entire time, all of his fights are exciting and he never gives up.
As a huge Carlos Condit fan
I would love to see that fight sometime next year.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the thing about that
is that Rory MacDonald was doing very well taking Condit down and working from the top, Kampmann eeked out a decision with his takedowns and top control; GSP does this way better. I don’t see Condit having much of a chance, although his kickboxing looked incredibly sharp against Hardy, and he is threatening from his back.
Another GSP UD in my opinion.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Dec 12, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I think he's still improving
And he’ll deserve a shot before long. Especially because that Kampmann fight was a draw if I’ve ever seen one. I’ve never had a harder time picking a winner than I did for that fight.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Would they fight, though? They’re both Jackson’s students.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Condit already said he would fight him
And Dana loves him for it.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Awesome
What does GSP say?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Some about his riddum
It was hard to understand.
Seriously though, I don’t think he’s commented on it or even been asked.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, Jake Shields is the fighter to beat GSP.
by tanglestrangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Jake Shields..
is the fighter to lose a fight standing against GSP. I agree.
If anyone wants to see the rematch, just watch the first fight again.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
It was worse than that
I think GSP inflicted more damage to Fitch’s face than all his other UFC opponents combined.
Props to Fitch for coming out to the post fight press conference, though. That alone will keep me a fan of his forever, regardless of how boring his fighting style is.
I think that he could especially since Askren generally just rushes forward in trying to get the takedown. Also, when Askren has his opponent on the ground, he’s not a strong finisher which would allow someone like GSP to get back to his feet. What I would worry the most about Askren is the standup because his defense is very poor, and GSP used that jab at range which would make it hard for a wrestler to get their hands on him. During the Koscheck fight, outside of round one, Koscheck was shooting from five feet away. In two years or so, and if Askren can fix his striking and defense, then I’d like to see GSP vs Askren.
Check out MMA For You at http://www.youtube.com/user/Gobusiness123 for MMA reviews, predictions, and analysis.
Shields dominated Askren on the mat and choked out Fitch at the Gracie Open and he will dominate St Pierre in the cage.
Jake Shields has been in the top 10 since 2004, without a loss, while winning four Championships in 2 weight classes.
He cut 35-40lbs in 9 weeks and looked drained and still beat a top 10 WW and he will be back at a natural WW when he ends the St Pierre run as WW Champion.
Wins: Henderson, Lawler, Mayhem, Okami, Daley, Thompson, Pyle, Condit, Sakurai, Charuto, Kikuchi, Kampmann etc.
by tanglestrangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
You're a funny man.
Shields can’t get GSP down, and will be brutalized on the feet.
Yeah, that's what they said about Lawler, I got Shields at 2.7, They said Henderson would kill Shields I got him at 4 to 1. I can't wait for the odds on Shields GSP.
by tanglestrangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
That's what they said about Lawler?
Really?
When was Lawler the top 2 p4p fighter in the sport? The top MMA wrestler in the sport, a BJJ black belt in his own right, etc.
Again…you’re a funny man.
I really feel like you are missing the point of that list.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 13, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
also Sheilds has gotten two olympic wrestlers down.
its silly to think he wont get Gsp down.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 13, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
I think
GSP’s technical prowess on the feet plus his quickness and athleticism in TDD would prove too much, and it would look much like GSP-Fitch did…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
GSP, as much as I love to hate the guy, is without a doubt the greatest mixed martial artist of all time. People talk about Fedor and his run all the time, but if you look at his resume, he doesn’t have too many name opponents other than Cro Cop and Nog.
GSP has fought and beaten the best of the best from the start of his career. At this point in time, after the Shields fight, there won’t be a Welterweight contender that he hasn’t defeated in his decorated past and he’ll have nothing left to do but move up to Middleweight.
GSP, you are truly, the greatest mixed martial artist of all time.
I’m not a fan of Georges St. PIerre at all, but it’s hard to ignore the fact that he has the most dominant record in all of mixed martial arts. You have to give the guy credit, no matter what your stance is on his style or personality.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
How can you so easily dismiss Anderson in a discussion about “most dominant record”? No one’s ever done what he’s done in the UFC.
When you look at caliber of competition, you have holes in his title reign. Cote, leites and even Maia to an extent. Where as GSP’s title reign, you only have Hardy is the odd standout. Then you look at their pre-title runs, and GSP has faced the stiffer competition IMO.
Also, while not title defenses, Travis Lutter and James Irvin. Fedor would be proud.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Anderson had nothing to do with that not being a title shot – that was all Lutter’s weight.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
Title fight or not Lutter isn’t exactly a Dan Henderson or Rich Franklin.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 13, 2010 12:41 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, no, but it sounds like you’re holding it against Silva that it wasn’t a title fight, when he was blameless for that.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 13, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
I think if Anderson gets a "super fight"
Either with GSP or, even better, with Rua if he beats Evans would give him a better case for GOAT. Its not his fault MW has been so week over the years.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
One thing that stands out to me about GSP is that he is the prototype for all the top mixed martial artists to come. People always say that in so-and-so years, we’ll see a bunch of GSPs. They are not saying that about Shogun, Anderson, Aldo, Penn, Edgar, etc, but people are saying that about GSP, which really says something about his skills and how well-rounded he is. The other fighters that I mentioned are great fighters, but they arguably aren’t as well-rounded as GSP.
Check out MMA For You at http://www.youtube.com/user/Gobusiness123 for MMA reviews, predictions, and analysis.
Beautiful argument. Flawless reasoning.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah dude, I agree.
Wins over such great fighters as Yugi Nagata, Naoya Ogawa, Wagner Martins and Mihail Apostolov just scream out great, right?
by Tech Fall 171 on Dec 12, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone knows
Where Arlovski and Sylvia were in there careers when Fedor beat them. As for Herring he was never the world beater that Nog and Cro Cop were. Shilt should stick to K-1 so that’s not as good as it sounds. Don’t get me wrong in K-1 He’s the man but MMA is a different animal altogether.
by Bloodsport on Dec 12, 2010 3:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Arlovski was on a 5 fight wins streak (w/ wins over werdum and big belly), fedor KO’d him, and he hasnt won since then.
They were top ten off fights with top contenders.
Everyone forgets where they were. Only Fedor is subject to such hindsight revisionism that can be applied to most fighter’s careers.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 12, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually
Sylvia was #2 and Arlovski #5 IIRC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I get
for going off memory.
Thanks for the correction.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
AA was #2
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
This Canadian still thinks Anderson Silva is ahead of GSP — hasn’t been defeated since 2006, 13 straight fights — completely destroyed the MW division and has ruined a couple game fighters at 205. Now, that said I think GSP’s talent pool in WW is stiffer but numbers are numbers.
And really, I still have a soft spot for Fedor ;)
Half the year in Canada, Half the year in Thailand.
by Fedor on Dec 12, 2010 3:43 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
But I thought you were Russian?!?!?!?!
Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...
by Anthony Pace on Dec 12, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Fedor most definitely is the nest of all time> Also you must take into account that the guy could easily cut to light heavy but doesn’t and stays on top of the heavyweight division. Truly is the greatest. Another thing that seperates Fedor from GSP is the way he finishes fights and just completely dominates his opponents. GSP is a close second though.
could not agree more
And ya I am a Canadian too … GSP is a great fighter but if these guys are so great, why do they cut weight … Fedor just goes in fat and destroys guys … he is tiny for the HW division … and he loses one fight and everyone thinks he is done …
As much I love the UFC, the propaganda and ignorance that is rammed down our throats is sickening …
by hacksaw_27 on Dec 12, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
They crossed the line with that "baddest man on the planet" bs.
I had a girl at the time who had seen most of Brock’s fight with me, and even she laughed at that statement. That says a lot…..
I think we can thank karma for Brock's first fight after that
If that didn’t shoot down all credibility of the UFC hype machine, nothing will.
Of course, many fighters in the UFC don’t need are badasses for their actual skills and performances, not hype.
Fedor has said
He would feel weaker or less effective at 205 IIRC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
askren wouldn't stand a chance
he got wrestling and wrestling only. Against Good he displayed dissmal ground and pound abilities. His stand up is way worse than Koscheck’s. His grappling would be outmatched by GSP.
askren seems interesting, but in reality it’d be a killing for GSP.
by Discman2 on Dec 12, 2010 3:46 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, I thought that was a head scratcher
I mean, Tyrone Woodley after he’s more developed would be a better choice than Askern. I think GSP can beat him anywhere.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
If Askren continues developing as the rate he is, it could be a very intriguing fight a couple years from now, but yeah…he’d get stomped anytime soon.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Dec 12, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you’re wrong. Not only does he have wrestling, he has a submission game that is improving at an exponential rate. His stand-up is his biggest weakness.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
I am not impressed by his submission game
Particularly not enough to do anything threatening to GSP who (and I hate to borrow from Rogan) has a totally underrated ground game.
If the line was close at all on that fight, I’d bet the house.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If GSP's odds are any better than -500, I'm betting the house
Seriously. How on earth is Shields going to take GSP down? It’s going to be more futile than Maia-Silva.
against GSP I don't think his sub game would be effective
against B level talent, yes. GSP, land lets not even add in that this would be a fight year(s) down the line where GSP would also be improving… Askren has nothing on GSP.
also, askren has displayed his talents on C-B level opponents. Greatly exaggerates his game. GSP dominated Fitch and Koscheck, both high level,possibly comparable to askren. And that’s only wrestling wise, where askren has his only chance.
like I said, askren wouldnt stand a chance. Even improving leaps and bounds.
by Discman2 on Dec 12, 2010 4:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Another thing about Askren
…assuming he can actually wrestle GSP to the ground— is that his ground control is questionable against fighters who can scramble. In the first Ryan Thomas fight he was getting swept constantly. Add to that how badly he got damaged from top control in the Good fight and you’ve got a recipe for my confusion as to why he’s being considered such a top flight talent. Some day? Maybe. Now? No way. I’d pick a lot of UFC fighters over him today.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
askren gets hype
because he’s the highest touted wrestler to come into mma. I think a lot of people tend to overstate his skills, considering his strength of competition.
by Discman2 on Dec 12, 2010 5:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not really
Hendricks and Roshalt are at least as highly regarded as wrestlers.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions
Olympics
Thats what separates Askren from Hendricks and Roshalt, and rightfully, it should. Competing in the Olympics is the closest thing to going pro in wrestling. So while they were all great in college, only Askren went “pro”.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Not really
So much of that depends on where the Olympic “cycle” is when an amateur career is otherwise over. Yes, Cormier and Lindland among others came from Olympic competition, but it is not necessarily indicative of a “superior” wrestling background.
IIRC, Lesnar skipped it for the money in pro wrestling…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Excuses
Change Olympics to competing on the national team, then you remove your “cycle” argument. Read quotes from anyone who competed at the national level, and they all say the level of competition blows away the competition in the NCAA. Competing on the national team is indicative of having superior wrestling. It’s the only objective way to look at it. Even if they were all equal when they left college, Askren got much better by improving his wrestling at the next level, competing with the best of the best in the US against the best of the best in the world.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
You are exactly right
I have said this for months. Askren would beat Fitch or Kos today – he has the best wrestling in all of MMA, and even GSP couldn’t stuff the majority of his takedowns.
Give him 2-3 more fights in Bellator, bring him to the UFC and let him run through a couple of top guys and he would be ready.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
I watched 2 videos of Askren rolling with Shields and Askren got tapped over and over. I think he will be great, but ya got a wait.
Right now Jake Shields is the fighter to beat St Pierre.
by tanglestrangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
I love how Askren is the guy to dethron Gsp and Sheilds doesnt deserve a shot at the belt.
But Jake wipes the mat with Askren in training. And Gsp isnt better than Anderson.
Is Leland a Canuck? He seems to be polite enough, likes gsp and mentioned Gretsky in his article. I feel this might be his great north pride clouding his vision on the matter.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
errr typeos
you get it
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
training=/=real life
it’s not a great judge sometimes.
did you see shields’ performance against Kampmann? Heres a recap… It was awful. Shields isn’t the guy to beat GSP. Even if he wipes Askren in training.
by Discman2 on Dec 12, 2010 5:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Shields
Had a weight cut gone way wrong and struggled with a severe injury throughout camp. That fight is not at all indicative of what he can do.
Having said that, he would have a better shot at the title at MW than WW in the UFC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
American Ronin you are right. Jake Shields is the man. Are you a Bay Area gym rat? Shields didn't talk about the injury, just said he had a hard weight cut, but everyone in the main gyms where Shields trains knew and word gets around.
But people were pretty good about being quiet about before the fight, so as not to give Kampmann a heads up.
by tanglestrangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
No, Houston-based
but I heard from people I trust that he was jacked up pretty badly and couldn’t train properly, but wasn’t going to back out of his UFC debut even if they had to carry him to the entry walk. I almost bet against him, but the heart of a champion finds the will and a way to win, and he did. Far from pretty, but a ‘W’ all the same.
On top of that, he had a tougher than expected cut to boot.
In peak condition, he finishes Kampmann in the first or second, and Kampmann is far from a joke…
Having said that, I still think he would have a better chance of beating Anderson than he would GSP, even though his BJJ for MMA is far superior to GSP’s, I fear GSP is too quick and athletic to be taken down and it would look much like GSP-Fitch did.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
so ben let him win?
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 7:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Actually...
I’m not a fan of Georges St. PIerre at all[…]
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
Askren out-wrestled Shields,
even jake would tell you that, although Jake’s superior BJJ allowed him to tap him. He took Shields down with total ease, even though he knew exactly what was coming.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Those video's are on line, Shields tapped Askren repeatedly, Askren never tapped Shields, I do think the kid will be great but ya got to wait awhile.
by tanglestrangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Both Shields and GSP would be Askren pretty easily right now IMO.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
thats not what happened.... and besides is taking Jake down really such a good idea?
but here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IV7Ac-Qnhg
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Jake took down ben at will.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
While I will agree taking Jake down is not a good idea without some serious BJJ skills
Ben took Jake down at 1:45, 2:14, 2:29, 3:39, 5:57, 6:10, 6:15, 6:29, 6:39 and 6:43. Never once was he truly stuffed, just delayed, although Jake pulled guard once mid-takedown from the clinch.
Jake took Ben down at 2:55, 3:12 and 4:08.
Having said that, Jake would still beat Ben pretty handily in MMA right now, as would GSP, but that’s about it.
Jake himself points out at the end that he thinks Ben will be UFC champ in 3 years.
Also, I think either guy beats Fitch, and I would love to see Shields – Fitch and/or Shields – Kos…then again, I loved Shields – Mayhem…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I love all Mayhem fights and Sheilds fights.
I was just saying Jake took him down several times as well. You painted a one sided picture with that comment.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 13, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
Its only fair to also point out
that video is edited, so who knows how some of the other takedowns played out.
Having said that, Shields beats Askren 19/20 right now in MMA and 99/100 in submission grappling.
Ben’s “funky” scrambling style is tailor-made for Jake’s top-3 BJJ for MMA style…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 2:12 AM EST up reply actions
Nick Diaz?
I don’t think he would win but, it could be real fun to watch. GSP is my fav fighter so I don’t think anyone can beat him at the moment, Askren may be able to give him fits with more experience.
Diaz gets drubbed by wrestlers.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I fully agree with you
but would GSP want to chance being submitted the whole time? I’d love to see the game plan GSP and Jackson would come up with against Diaz
GSP's sub D would keep him out of trouble
his positioning and control on the ground would be enough, I think. Other than Hughes I, I can’t even think of a time where he was even remotely in trouble of being subbed.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
GSP would dominate Diaz
Utterly. Wouldn’t even be remotely competitive…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest Diaz is quite a bit better than he used to be, so I’m reserving judgment on his modern form.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
He’s absolutely improved, but he also isn’t fighting anyone pushing him out of a comfort zone, and I say this as a big Diaz fan. If he can hang with a good wrestler in SF, I’d be more open to a match. Miller would be interesting, but Mayhem is also quite a bit bigger. I would love to see if Diaz’s punches-in-bunches boxing would work, though. Screw it, book the fight!
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
They've got nothing for him there
That’s part of the problem. But I feel confident that he can pose problems both standing and from the bottom for anyone. I think that GSP would wrestle the shit out of him, for sure, but that Diaz might have something for him. Of course, I don’t give him much of a chance, but I don’t give anyone much of a chance.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
I second this
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Yep
Normally agree with Blackout, but they protected him from Hieron for a reason.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 12, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I normally disaree with Subo but this is a true as statement beyond questioning.
rec’d
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I'm with you there
But I don’t think Leland is a big Diaz fan. I would absolutely love to see that fight.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I think GSP has satisfied 2 of 3 requirements to be considered best of all time
1 of 3: Completely dominant against the best fighters in his division. The most basic ingredient of greatness.
2 of 3: Came back from an upset loss to Serra in even better form. An important factor to test a fighters heart and willpower to pick themselves back up.
Whats missing is testing himself out of safe waters. His desire to reach for epic glory by doing things others would safely assume he cannot do, and then proving that he can overcome major adversity. That means moving up in weight and winning even when, on paper, he has a disadvantage.
I think Anderson has successfully shown he has all 3 qualities. He’s dominated MW thoroughly and gutted it. He came back from his only true loss to the freak submission by Chonan (just like the freak TKO by Serra) and looked absolutely unstoppable. Until of course Chael gave the world the most intense 24 minutes of MMA I can remember in a long time. And Silva STILL won, showing that he can take an immense beating and still pull out the win (Fedor-esque of him too). And finally, Silva has fought at LHW as well and just destroyed people there. While GSP is more savvy in his relationship to fans, he needs to be a force to reckon with at MW to be considered GOAT.
So basically what you’re saying is A Silva and BJ Penn are the only two fighters who can even qualify for GOAT?
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, as for BJ,
I don’t think he satisfies the second. He didn’t rebound from his loss to Frankie or his loss to GSP (the 2nd time they fought).
Fedor qualifies as well since he fought guys who were well above his size and weight. THey may have all nominally been in the same weight class, but thats just a label, its the actualy physical differences that matter.
I will never understand why comebacks are a sign of greatness
If GSP is too good to get in any danger from any type of fighter, then how is he going to come back? He would have to become a worse fighter to get in a position of losing, yet that will make him a better fighter? WTF?
We’ve seen him come back against Penn after an eye poke and supposedly broken nose, so what else can he prove?
Maybe you misunderstood...
I’m saying gsp HAS already had a comeback after the Serra knockout. He’s already shown that a loss like that won’t deter him. Some people mentally cave in, lose the passion, burn out, when they are meet with the realities of a failure. That GSP overcame that with such great applomb supports him as one of the GOATS.
GSP is without a doubt the top fighter in the world right now
But I cannot give him the greatest of all time yet.
Fedor still holds that IMO. He was undefeated for 10 years, which in this sport is really hard to do. Yes he beat a lot of lesser competiton but he also holds wins plenty of top 10 wins. Cro Cop ( the most feared striker at the time and he did it standing), Nog (twice), Big Tim, Arlovski, Coleman, Randleman. Lets not forget he was undersized which makes what he did that much more impressive
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
by Noah'sArk on Dec 12, 2010 3:50 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Kevin Randleman and Mark Coloeman were Top 10 last century that is clutching at straws at best.
by MattParker117 on Dec 12, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Quick! Everyone revise history to suit your current opinion.
by Rufford on Dec 12, 2010 3:53 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I love watching him fight
I get chills watching GSP compete it’s amazing how he does what he does and right now he is the face of the sport and the P4P best fighter on the planet.
Great commentary, Leland.
A few more qualifiers in the stiffer competition argument:
- During his tenure in the UFC, GSP has defeated a former champion on six occasions (Hughes x 2, Penn x 2, Sherk and Serra). Anderson Silva has only done so on three occasions (Franklin x 2, Henderson).
- During his tenure in the UFC, GSP has defeated an opponent who was consensus top ten pound-for-pound at the time of the bout on five occasions (BJ x 2, Fitch, Alves and Hughes II). Anderson Silva has done so on two occasions (Franklin I and Henderson).
Middleweight has been a historically weak division, while I would argue that the WW division during GSP’s reign is matched only by the strength of PRIDE’s HW division during Fedor’s reign. No question.
by Disco-Platypus on Dec 12, 2010 3:57 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
To be fair, Anderson beat Forrest who too was a former champ
MMA For Real Contributor
by Charles Walker on Dec 12, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm sorry
But Askren is nowhere near GSP’s level. I saw the Lyman Good fight live, and while Askren has good wrestling, his gas tank would run out halfway through the second round of GSP putting the pressure on him. He ate a LOT of strikes on the ground. I hope the kid improves in the future, but he isn’t nearly top 10 WW in the world.
Seriously
I can’t believe how impressed people are with Askern after getting his face destroyed from the top in that fight.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
It was a fun night
Seeing Alvarez destroy Huerta was worth the price of admission
by Fear the RUSH on Dec 12, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
It's so hard to compare GSP and Anderson
Anderson is a modern marvel. I truly feel that he is the sports Ali and that he’ll live in infamy forever for some of the things he’s done. I’m apparently one of the only people around that has a strange fascination with his antics during fights and is completely amazed at how he doesn’t take any damage (outside of the Sonnen bout, of course, which suddenly seems like a really sketchy performance based on numerous facts).
I’m going to reserve judgment on GSP, Anderson and Fedor until the curtain draws on their careers. Fedor is bordering on being left behind in this conversation, with Anderson and GSP running about neck and neck.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
So long as Andy & GSP keep fighting top competition, they will be the top for a long while.
Fedor, I suspect, will be a warning to future fighters that they should remain relevant.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Dec 12, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Then again
Some crazy Canadians could manage GSP and use him to further their promotion. MFC on Spike anyone?
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
I was reading then I was all.. whaaaat?
I’d argue that Ben Askren, Bellator’s welterweight champion, is the only intriguing fighter out there right now who could push St. Pierre to his limits.
Askren would get lit up like a christmas tree
by DirtyML on Dec 12, 2010 4:07 PM EST reply actions 17 recs
jaysis, I was already giggling at the gif and then Rashad’s face pops up ahahaha. that’s a classic
by Superstitiousmma on Dec 12, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Um… yeah. Askren has potential. Oodles of it. But no.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 12, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
This is the truth
GSP’s fight with Fitch has been his most competitive since losing to Serra. It is what it is. Fitch deserves another shot.
What was competitive about that fight? It was as bad a beatdown as against Kos…maybe even worse.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Yeah, there was nothing competitive about that fight, if I remember correctly the scores were 50-44×2 and 50-43.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
According to FightMetric
Fitch was able to land 96 strikes on GSP, 36 where ‘HiPer" (which AFAIK is the former name of “significant strikes”). GSP’s face was actually as banged up as it’s ever been.
Koscheck only landed 16 sig strikes, 30 total. Alves 16 sig, 56 total.
That's not true.
Brock Lesnar is the best fighter on the planet…. when he is fighting bears and deers.
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
Only you would take this conversation as an opportunity to bash Brock. Great job.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I am a brock fan brother
haha. GSP is not the greatest. That argument is just to raise the heat up here. GSP is great but he needs a few more wins and maybe a win against Anderson to be the best of all time .
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
well. That explains a lot about his situation, no?
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Bullshit
Aleks hired the Russian mafia to kill the deer for him.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Alexander is the only guy
who knocked someone out without touching him. Remember that fight?
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Can't say I do
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
dang
can’t fight it on YouTube
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Which fight was it?
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
It was this year for sure
against some unknown guy. My memory is failing me. I know the guy just fell down and Aleks was looking at the ref like WTF! :)
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
According to Sherdog
he has a win over Eddy Bengtsson earlier this year in 40 seconds by “punch”
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
ah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sujUH3qgcvk
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
either that is the best acting I’ve ever seen by someone throwing a fight, or that dude straight up fainted. What the fuck
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
thats like total domination
the guy was so scared he fainted and got knocked out by himself. haha. GSP can’t do that
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Fixed fights are like that.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 12, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
that dude didnt want Hep C and did want a paycheck.
best way you could accomplish both.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
you got to define best
Do you mean the guy who finishes most fights, the guy who wins most, the guy who has the most wins, the guy who has the most complete game. I think the notion of GOAT is absurd.
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
by SheepleBuster on Dec 12, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Guy who finishes most fights: Silva
Guy who wins most: Silva in career, GSP in UFC
Guy who has most title defenses: Silva
Guy who has most complete game: arguable
Silva is a much better striker. GSP is a much better wrestler. Silva’s BJJ is probably better, but we don’t know for sure.
I say Silva wins.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Silva is no longer a much better striker
Maia was able to hit him, Sonnen was able to rock him multiple times and even outland him on the feet. Conversely, GSP has been getting harder and harder to hit.
Add in the fact that GSP is far quicker than anyone Silva has ever faced (though Belfort will be close later on), along with Silva fearing the takedown from GSP’s lightning fast shot, and I say GSP will now win the striking battle.
Unthinkable a couple years ago, but GSP got better and Silva didn’t.
mmamath ftw…. I agree silva and gsp are neck and neck, but this is a bit ridiculous,
by Hendo_One-Shot on Dec 12, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
This isn’t mmamath in the way that I usually hear that term used.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
You mean Velasquez, right? Even though that’s wrong, as he decisioned Kongo.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 12, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Your spreadsheet is wrong
I definitely can’t go through all those numbers, but Cain beat Kongo by UD. He doesn’t have 100% finish %.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
The other problem with using finish %
is it does nothing to take into account level of competition. GSP is far and away my favorite fighter, but I really don’t know where I stand on the “greatest ever” argument. My initial reaction is to say no, but I guess my argument here is that any argument using statistics is going to be flawed.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Yeah, Idk about this.
There are too many factors to settle a question like this in a chart. Level of competition is a high one. I’d argue GSP has fought much better competitors. Silva has wins over some questionable names in Leites, Maia, (neither of which he finished) and Cote (which only barely counts as a finish).
"When I beat Wanderlei I’m a take his belt, pull his pants down and spank him for being so ugly" - Quinton Jackson
Cain
should be 6/7 for .85714 in the UFC
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
That’s rushed, you can’t just take the number and percentage of finishes into account or you will have to include Travis Fulton and make him king. The guy is over 90%.
They see me rollin...
He isn’t a UFC champ. He was 1-1 in the UFC, and his only win was a decision. He isn’t included.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
I made an error. One of his wins was a decision.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
What is that chart based on? Finishing percentage? Who cares. Silva’s strength of competition isn’t as comparable to St. Pierre’s. And basing it on finishing fighters when everyone in the UFC is an elite fighter is absurd.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Dey see me winning...
’Aters gonna ’ate.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Dec 12, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Silva has more career wins, a much higher finish rate, and is much more exciting to watch (in my opinion). He has also destroyed guys in the next weight division. I don’t even like the guy, but I think he’s more deserving of GOAT than GSP.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
How does more career wins matter at all? GSP has destroyed the very best in his division, well credential guys backed by impressive backgrounds. This argument is just wrong in so many ways.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I can’t put GSP above Fedor or Anderson. If we’re having the “Greatest” discussion, then we have to consider the willingness of a fighter to press the action and take a fighter out, even if it puts them in jeopardy of being finished. GSP doesn’t do that (nor do a lot of Jackson fighters). Fedor even takes it one step further and looks to take a fight to his opponent’s strength, though it could be costly (Werdum fight); whereas Anderson refuses to go to the ground with a bjj expert. Taking into consideration that all three are amazing fighters, you have to factor in “looking to finish” when having this hypothetical and subjective discussion.
by Stroma on Dec 13, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Whether Anderson presses the action is questionable. Anderson is a defensive fighter, and he manages most of his stoppages while he is being chased (ie, when his opponent is pressing the action, not him). When he faces an opponent who is less willing to engage him on the feet, he acts like a clown and the fight goes to decision.
Fedor is a great fighter, but in the last 3 years, he has not fought great competition. Some would argue that the level of his competition was never at the level of GSP’s competition. IMO, you have to consistently beat the best to be the best.
In the last 3 years, Fedor has faced 4 top-10 guys (and had another scraped at the last minute for reasons beyond his control), beating 3 of them. At HW, only Brock can match either the 4 total or 3 wins over top-10.
To secure the GOAT (to date) title, IMO either GSP or Anderson must beat the other or move up a class and win a title there.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Fighting to your opponent’s strengths and against your own is not being great, it is being stupid and prideful.
Guillotine.
It also leads to losses, like what happened to Fedor, or a lot of losses, like what’s been happening to Wanderlai Silva over the last 5 years. If you’ve got a title and don’t want to lose it, you tend to rely on smart gameplans a bit more. If you’re on your way up, you tend to try to be a little more exciting to catch the eye of the UFC’s boss/matchmaker. If you’re on your way down, you’ve got nothing to lose, you say “fuck it” and go for it. That’s why guys like Lyttle and Condit are super-exciting and guys like GSP play it smarter.
Meh.
Questionable piece of journalism imo. Reeks of fanboyism.
Also, Ben Askren? Please.. Maybe in 4 years.
Watching GSP – as a fighter myself – is like watching poetry in motion. But after 3.5 rounds of fighting someone with subpar striking technique and a completely shut eye… I’d expect a finish. That’s my only knack on GSP; he’s a athlete, not a fighter..
by Sebastiaan Tauran on Dec 12, 2010 4:26 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
One of the best fighters in the world isn’t a fighter. Thats some deep shit.
by AHutch on Dec 12, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This “not a fighter” knock has to stop. He’sdestroying fighters at their strengths and weaknesses. He’s the most dominant WW since Hughes. He’s earned the right to be called a fighter.
by pud333 on Dec 12, 2010 4:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
Ok, what is a fighter? Because GSP fights, win fights, beat the shit outta people, tough people, the best there is, again and again. You would think that at some point he would get some respect.
They see me rollin...
by spectaa on Dec 12, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Amen brother
"The greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look." - Revolver
by flyingkneetoface on Dec 12, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Who the hell rec'd this!?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 12, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I rec’d for the fanboyism statement, and he does have a point. A great fighter goes out and dominates en route to a dec victory but an excellent fighter goes out there and finishes his opponent.
That’s my only knack on GSP; he’s a athlete, not a fighter..
For me, I can’t get past how horribly wrong this statement is.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 12, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Explain to me
How can an opinion be wrong? To me his mindset is that of an athlete, not a fighter. He does not have the heart of a fighter. I had hope when i heard him comment on how he didnt want to hear about Josh ever again after he defeated him twice, but after seeing how he was content on jabbing him out for 5 rounds, it was all talk… again.
GSP is fun to watch…
by Sebastiaan Tauran on Dec 13, 2010 3:11 AM EST up reply actions
For what its worth
As of our last update we had GSP at #6 All-time.. Anderson at #4.
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system [http://www.fightmatrix.com].
Contrast in wrestling styles
Not sure Askren would provide much more if anything than Kos did. I’ll admit to not having watched Kos collegiately as a wrestler but his style seems more geared toward being a power wrestler with strong doubles, etc while Askren is much more of a funk wrestler, using scrambles and unorthodox technique to get the fight down to the mat. Therefore it would be interesting to see how GSP deals with a difference in styles as far as going against a different kind of wrestler but GSP’s striking is worlds above Askren’s and if Askren couldn’t get the fight down (and even if he could) it would more likely than not be a short night for him.
Push St. Pierre to his limits.
1. Askren is not the guy to do that at least for now.
2. When was the last guy to push GSP to hs limits? BJ in the first fight but GSP has clealry improved vastly since then and has no real weakness style wise now.
3. Anderson SIlva has a wrestling “weakness” and Sonnen puched him to his limits and he pulled out an amazing win which helped his Greatness image,
GSP does need someone to push him to his limits and Silva is the only man to do that…Shields, Fitch, Daley, DIaz, Kos, Hardy, Alves can’t
Im just sick of people saying I will knock GSP out (Hardy, Kos, Alves) Only Daley has that power/skill to do so… of course GSP would take him down and sub him
Yeah there aren’t many angles for an opponent to attack gsp on.
by pud333 on Dec 12, 2010 4:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How often has he said he was going to knock them out?
Kos is the only one I can remember.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
GSP doesn't need to finish .....
he defeats his opponents will. he defeats them to the core, their own mind. they leave the octagon not being able to comprehend what to do next. it took Fitch 4 fights to get back on track, Alves 2 fights, Hughes never, Hardy not yet, we’ll see w/ Kos but i’m not holdin’ my breath. i’m not a fanboy, i just recognize greatness when i see it. do i wish that in the last round of each of his last 3 fights he left a little more in the cage, yes. i do. but it’s time we recognize just what GSP is doing. the man is defeating opponents on a level that borders on soul-eating.
by F'n Clownshoes on Dec 12, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Preach brother preach!
thank you for saying what I wanted to say, but communicating it better than I would be able to.
"We have all had to watch Brock Lesnar fart around. That guy is an embarrassment. God damn, you get to hand pick his opponents for him for a while then someone who is a half way decent athlete comes along and hits him once and he pisses his pants and runs. If he wasn't in a cage he would still be running."
-Don Frye
At least he wins
That’s a lot better than saying you’re gonna knock a guy out then getting your face broke in the first minute.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm always hesitant with this sort of thing...
I do know that I can’t sit here and say that you’re definitively wrong.
As for the Askren comment, I would be interested in seeing the two grapple. Within the context of MMA, it’s not something that would interest me yet. I suspect that will change in time.
It would have been nice to see a little more commitment to varied strikes later in last night’s bout. Didn’t see much of that left hook Freddie Roach mentioned, but I enjoyed watching the bout regardless.
I’m curious if anyone else noticed Koscheck shaking his head and saying something while against the fence in the fourth or fifth round? I couldn’t help but wonder what (if anything) the exchange was there.
I didn't actually hear anything
Just saw Koscheck appearing to say something. I figured St. Pierre said something as well though, as Koscheck was shaking his head while saying whatever he was. For a moment, I thought we were having one of those “this is over, let’s go to the ground” moments on our hands.
by Brent Ducharme on Dec 12, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
They are different eras.
I would be interested to see how well GSP and his competitors would do with 10 minute opening rounds and fighting in a ring as opposed to a cage. Would he be as successful? On the flip side we have seen Fedor lacking in cage savvy which had a big part to play in his defeat against Werdum.
This is why I think the fighter who could possibly hold the title of greatest of all time over Fedor is Anderson since he excelled in both environments, although two of his losses came in Pride. They are clearly two different kinds of MMA and both can be called the greatest for their version of MMA.
by memitim on Dec 12, 2010 4:39 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Disagree. Silva has always enjoyed the physical adavantages over his oppenents and yet still fails to finish guys he is supposed to finish (Leites, Maia). Thats the big diff betweem Fedor and Silva. Just look at how Fedor fights and how silva fights. Sure Fedor recently lost to reigning ADCC champ Werdum, but he did not get flat-out dominated like Silva did. He looked helpless.
Fedor is still greatest of all time.
being finished is worse than someone L'n'Praying you before you triangle them imho
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Nope.
Silva also got rocked and tagged multiple times during the fight as well.
SIlva looked helpless and was dominated, Fedor just mad a rookie mistake underestimating Werdum the way he did and got caught.
Also, sub def is Chael’s weakest part of his game, and it took Silva 4.5 rounds to get it.
That should speak volumes about his ground game.
Oh come on son!
Silva has several submission victories in the octagon and has more than handled himself from his back. That speaks more volumes about his ground game than the fight with Chael.
Rocked and tagged multiple times? Hyperbole much? After the initial tagging, I don’t recall seeing Anderson being rocked any time afterwards.
Ultimately a rematch between silva and sonnen will reveal much about both fighters but methinks you are being a little liberal with the criticism of Silva based on that one performance
by CaptainKneebar on Dec 12, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
No. I am basing it on other performances as well, like, the Maia, Leites, and Lutter fights.
I also set he got tagged multiple times, not rocked. I apologize if that came out wrong but Chael dominated the fight up until that triangle.
The truth is that Silva has not looked like an unstoppable beast in his last 3. And yes Silva-Sonnen 2 will answer a lot of questions.
The fact that Silva was facing a proven cheater in that fight probably doesn’t mean anything to you huh?
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Also it’s pretty silly that your just passing one guys loss off as a “rookie mistake” when said fighter has over 30 fights and more than a decade of experience under his belt while criticizing the other guy for a win against a juice head.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Anderson’s win was awesome. Nothing should take away from it. Fedor lost because he still fights like he is in a ring. He gets out of that triangle if he was in a ring. But, he isn’t and he needs to show that he can fight in both environments and dominate.
Also I’d like to see him under the unified rules but I doubt that happens.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know and I would like to see GSP fight an elite WW striker of Daley’s caliber in a ring. But never the twain shall meet.
Thiago Silva???
Daley couldnt get by Kos and got tapped by Sheilds inside of two rds.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
I mean Thiago Alves.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
Except he's not a proven cheater
A lack of compliance with paperwork protocols is not equal to cheating.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, it is
He broke the rules, that’s cheating.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He is still in violation for sure
thus the suspension was reduced but not eliminated.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
You are smarter than that.
Dont be that guy…..
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
There is no evidence to indicate that
He was in violation regardless, but if what he and his doctor testified under oath was correct, there is no evidence of cheating, although without blood testing it cannot be shown one way or another what his actual testosterone levels were at the time.
If they lied under oath, his rematch with Anderson will be the least of his worries…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
I think all three men; Fedor, Silva, and GSP books are not written fully yet. I want to see Fedor dominate in the cage the way he did in the ring. As far as GSP goes, we will never know if he would be as successful outside the cage. I think it is hard to be the greatest of all time with that being the case. He might be the greatest UFC fighter of all time but not the greatest MMA fighter of all time.
by memitim on Dec 12, 2010 7:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Congratulations
You just made it impossible for GSP to ever surpass Fedor because he will never be fighting in a ring.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Congratulations? It’s just the way it is. Fedor has to show he can be equally dominant in the cage as well. He hasn’t done that yet. In the end, Rua might turn out to be the greatest MMA fighter of all time if he defends his belt successfully for the years to come since he was successful against so many of the sports greats in both Pride and UFC. He beats Evans and then Jones he has to be in the conversation.
You sir
Are ridiculous. You just set up a paradigm where literally no one who fights in the UFC now, can surpass anyone from the past, just because they won’t ever fight in a ring. So we’re literally stuck with either Rua or Fedor as the GOAT for…FOREVER!?! Maybe we should add the YAMMA Pit into the mix, since it was another fighting surface used in MMA. If you haven’t fought and won in the YAMMA pit, then you’ll never be the best, as in your words, “it’s just the way it is.”
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Are you serious? You do realize that Pride MMA and UFC MMA are two completely different worlds and styles of fighting. I’m sorry, that’s the way it is. Like I said, Fedor has to prove he can be a great cage fighter. He hasn’t yet. There is nothing wrong with saying GSP is the greatest UFC fighter of all time. He just can’t be considered the greatest MMA fighter of all time. Nothing ridiculous about it, except for you getting all riled up about the obvious.
Laughable
At least it’s making me laugh. Pride is dead, gone, over with. There were many types of football, it used to be played without a forward pass, with the field goal posts in the front of the end zone, etc… Basketball used to not have a 3 point shot. Baseball used to be played only during the day. Hockey used to be played without helmets, with wooden sticks, instead of carbon fiber. Sports evolve, and to say that the current participants can never surpass the past participants because of that evolution is absurd.
MMA used to be no rules, used to have no time limits, etc… The sport has changed leaps and bounds through the years, and I don’t ascribe to your notion that because the sport has changed we can’t name a GOAT.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
Stop with the “laughables” and “ridiculous”, are trying to imitate Subo? It is not laughable or ridiculous to say that each generation has their greatest. It happens in every sport. From Ruth to Aaron to Pujols. They all played a different kind of baseball. Pistol Pete to Magic/Bird to Jordan are different kinds of basketball. An argument can be made for each being the greatest.
I think I'm finally getting what you're going after
You think that it’s impossible to name a GOAT in any sport since every sport has eras, and you don’t think its appropriate to compare athletes from different eras.
While I don’t agree with that since it is boring, I can at least accept that as a sane argument to make.
You think Fedor was the GOAT of the Pride ring era. I’m fine with that, although some people will contend it was Rua.
You think it’s still up in the air who the GOAT of the cage era is. I’m fine with that too. I think this article is trying to say that if you had to decide right now who the GOAT in this current cage era is, then it is GSP. This all could change over the next few years though, and I don’t think anyone is contending that things won’t change.
Now, did I get that right, or do you think it is possible to name a GOAT for MMA as a whole, and not just MMA for each era?
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
You see, Rua was beaten in the Pride era, so was Anderson. Fedor was never beaten in Pride. He is unquestionably the greatest Pride fighter. But, right now Rua would go ahead of him because he has been so successful in both. When the last of the Pride era retires, we will have a new definition for that generation of fighters of who is the greatest. But, it won’t be comparable to this generation.
Babe Ruth would bat about .100 if he played against today’s pitchers.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 13, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree they differ, in rules and tactics
Fedor is undoubtedly the GOAT of the ring, and either GSP or Anderson are of the cage.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Shogun is already top 3 of all time at LHW.
His ability to dominate two separate and strong eras of MMA is unbelievable. He beat the who’s who in PRIDE, came to the UFC with injuries, then bounced back to topple a thought-to-be unbeatable champion… twice in a row. Five years apart. Chuck’s run is impressive over not the best at the time competition, Wanderlei was dominant with mixed bags of competition at times, and Saku was a god of a weaker era. Shogun may be the best fighter of all time at the premier division of the sport. Run tell dat… homeboy.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Shogun is 1 LHW all time.
No denying this, no ones record can compare to his, the only one that comes close is Wanderlei. All the others are off by miles.
Jermy Horn for P4P toughest Mother F#@! in the game!
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with that. He is definitely among the elite LW’s of all time. I think he can cement himself as the elite if he continues to win.
I don't see any criteria that put him outside of the top 3.
Someone can design an argument to make him number 3, and even that requires some strange criteria. Following a victory over Rashad, I think it’s clear that he’s the best LHW of all time. Another defense after that? He’s in the p4p discussion. He was staring his dominance when Chonan was subbing Anderson and GSP was losing to Hughes. This doesn’t make him greater than them inherently, but puts him in the same discussion if you ask me.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Absolutely. He beats Evans and then Jones (if Jones beats Bader) and we really have to start talking about him as the best MMA fighter of all time.
He does that
and the conversation is essentially over. Especially if Anderson declines to challenge him at 205.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think your ring love is getting carried away
i love MMA in the ring also, and am in no way clairvoyant, but we know that currently the best fight in the UFC ( % wise)? it would appear, by using some of the UFCs recent acquisitions and Japans alleged financial problems ( MMA wise), we may never see a great fighter in a ring again.
by F'n Clownshoes on Dec 12, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
But, you always see a fighter have to adjust to the cage from the ring. And vice versa. Their first few fights in either is often awkward at least. They are different animals that highlight different techniques.
i agree to a point
the point end w/ the blanket statement of you HAVE to have fought in the cage be considered the best. this is opinion for opinions sake for me. i don’t care who the greatest is. Shogun, Silva, GSP, Fedor all make me enjoy the sport more. it’s just that the cage/ring thing is so limiting when you are comparing and contrasting the greats.
by F'n Clownshoes on Dec 12, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
Of course it is limiting. And as time goes on it will change. Just like baseball had different eras, MMA will look back at the fighters of this past decade that fought and succeeded in both the Pride ring with the Pride rules and everything that comes with it as well as succeeded here in the States in a cage with all the rules and such that comes with that and they will simply have a special status. It’s like Babe Ruth versus Albert Pujols. So much is different about the game that it is almost impossible to make the comparison.
The main differnce between Ruth and Pujols
Is their competition. MMA is so young that everyone we’re arguing about being the GOAT are all still currently competing at the tops of their respective divisions, that’s why naming an MMA GOAT is much easier currently than naming a baseball GOAT. No need to bring in a ring vs cage debate, even Fedor himself has said it doesn’t make a difference.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
Fedor doesn’t say anything makes a difference but if he was in a ring, he doesn’t lose to Werdum. He is not used to that environment and showed in his first two bouts in a cage. It has made a big difference for guys like Cro Cop. It changes so much.
Different styles and techniques are going to constantly change MMA. How well do you think Ruth would do if he had the light bats that players had today. How well would Pujols do when the pitchers didn’t throw near the kind of pitches they do today. It is almost impossible to compare the two generations. Just like the Pride era will be impossible to compare to what MMA is 20 years from now unless there is some Pride revival.
What?!?!?
Fedor doesn’t lose to Werdum if it was in a ring? How did being in a cage affect that fight at all?
You keep changing your point so much I’m losing track of what you’re trying to say, so please clarify.
1) Do you think it is possible to decide who the GOAT in MMA is?
2) Do you think it is possible for someone who starts fighting 5 years from now, exclusively in a cage, to be the GOAT in MMA?
If you answer yes only to 1, then you have effectively made it impossible for any future MMA fighters to ever be the GOAT.
If you answer yes to both, then we are in agreement, that fighting a ring doesn’t matter when it comes to being the GOAT.
If you answer no to both, then I guess there is nothing left to discuss, since you don’t think naming a GOAT is possible.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
Well it's true
Fedor did bump into the cage while he was rolling out of the triangle. We’ll never really know if he would’ve gotten out in a ring, however we can safely say that the cage did not help him.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
Grasping at straws
The triangle wasn’t even locked up when Fedor bumped the cage, he still had ample time to defend properly, but he didn’t.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
I’m saying among this generation of MMA competitors it is hard to put someone like GSP, who has seen his success fighting elites only in a cage over guys like Anderson or Rua who succeeded in both forms of MMA this past decade presented.
And, yes, the cage effected Fedor in the fight against Werdum. He needs to prove dominance in a cage, like Rua and Anderson, but if this doesn’t happen, he doesn’t get trapped in that triangle:
I could just as easily speculate
That had the cage not been there, Fedor would have fallen on his side and Werdum would have slipped into mount and subbed Fedor from there. Or Werdum would have had an even easier time locking up the triangle as Fedor would be on his side and have lost his base.
See how easy it is to spin things to make your point?
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
No, because he would have done this if he was free on that side. It was the lack of side to side movement that helped Werdum lock in the triangle:
And if the Queen had balls she'd be the king.
we dont know how shit would play out. we just know what happened.
Wedum has better jits than Nog and is taller. Two things that make his triangle different than Nogs. Nog is one of my favs. I love his book and he is one of my Idols. but werdum today has a better triangle than Nog then imo.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Just look at the two gifs. Fedor was moving to stand up when he bounced off the cage, lost balance and fell right into Werdum’s triangle. He was free and clear before he bounced off the cage. Not an excuse. He needs to learn how to fight in a cage. Both fights that.
I see them
how bout some titles so i can collapse them so they wont slow my browser down ;-).
Fedor was in spider web as soon as that fight hit the ground with Werdum. IF fedor kept fighting the way he was fighting with werdum even if he would have got out of that mess he would have ended up in another.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 13, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Title
Or, while his hands were free, which they were before he got off balance against the cage, one of those shots would have put Werdum’s lights out. While Werdum’s triangle might be better than Nog’s his chin isn’t. He wouldn’t be able to eat these blows.
I always forget the titles. Bad habit. They are low res gifs tho.
Getting hit will do that to you
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 14, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
It’s impossible for me to put Fedor above St. Pierre at this point, but Silva is a different story altogether. The middleweight champion hasn’t lost in five years, a span of time in which he repeatedly set the high-water mark for striking in MMA. I’m also of the belief that Silva’s performance against Chael Sonnen only reaffirmed his place as MMA’s greatest fighter; being incessantly controlled for 20+ minutes without losing composure is as impressive as it gets. It was the worst possible style matchup for Silva and he made a game opponent tap out, all with busted ribs Diamond Dallas Page-style.
Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...
Anderson Silva wishes he was DDP
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like the cut of your jib sir.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll add that the skill disparity between Silva and his opponents essentially makes a mockery of all the guys he faces. What was it Freddy Roach said? Silva doesn’t even give us half of what he’s capable of doing.
Even GSP can't make the Princeton Tiger less of a sissy...
by Anthony Pace on Dec 12, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
WRONG
Well, I’m just glad you and your fans are in the minority on this one. Most P4P sites and MMA media, and Dana himself have Anderson there.
I’m sorry, but you can’t call yourself the greatest MMa fighter of all time when your last 4 out of 5 fights have been by boring decisions. That makes no logical sense.
To negate Anderson’s perfect UFC record and spectaular finishes because you say GSP’s road was harder, that’s just silly. Have we forgotten that GSP got knocked out by MAtt Serra. Matt Serra was not a top ten fighter. It’s not like he was knocked out by Paul Daley or BJ Penn. That would be like Anderson getting kocked out by Travis Lutter, or even Leben.
GSP does not have the killer instinct anymore. Matt Serra took his soul. His highlight reel is very short, and editors must have a hard ass time putting it together.
I would even say Fedor deserves that title before GSP. Again, GSP got knocked out cold by Serra. He has two legit losses on his record. Fedor has one.
It’s easy to dominate your opponents when you fight safe like GSP. But when you take chances like Fedor, Silva, Shogun, BJ, you will be remembered as legends. GSP will never reach that penicle, I’m certain.
"Knocked out cold"
I must have missed the part where he lost consciousness. Can we disqualify Anderson due to having his ankle taken home by Chonan? I don’t recall too many sites having him ranked highly. Shogun subbed by Babalu? We’ve seen what he’s capable of (going to sleep). Fedor jumping right into a world-class BJJ guard, repeatedly? And what did that get him? Tapped the fuck out.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Well, I didn’t attack GSP’s record before UFC. I was comparing their UFC records, since that’s what they’ll mainly be judged on and because they both won thier UFC titles practicaly at the same time. One month from each other, so it makes since to judge them on that, in my opinion.. All of Silva’s losses happened before he became the Silva we know today. You know that. GSP lost three years But that’s not even the point. Having a loss is fine. Look at Ali. He’s considered the greatest boxer of all time, and he got knocked out by Fraizer. I was making a point that you can’t say Andersons undefeated UFC record doesn’t trump GSP’s UFC record because GSP had tougher competition, when GSP was knocked out by a guy who wasn’t in the top ten. That argument would make more sense if he was knocked out by BJ Penn, but not Serra. That’s the argument that the author tried to make. Get it? I know sherdog has Anderson #1, I saw a bunch of others, I’ll try to post them in here. He’s ranked number 1 in most. Trust me.
Turn your sarcasm meter on
My statement was basically tongue-in-cheek. If you read some of my earlier comments, I’m not making the argument that GSP is definitively #1. But the point of my previous post is that using a fighters lowest point to disqualify them is ridiculously stupid, because it leaves you with a pretty bare list. If you want to argue that Anderson is #1, that’s fine, and I might have to agree. But do it based on their accomplishments, not who has the lowest point in their career.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
the greatest
no, 99/100 boxing experts do not consider Ali the greatest boxer of all-time. It’s Sugar Ray Robinson. In fact, most experts don’t consider Ali to be the greatest heavyweight of all-time. He is probably the most famous boxer of all-time though … although I’d say Tyson is also in the running.
In fact, most experts don’t consider Ali to be the greatest heavyweight of all-time.
I feel that you go to far, but also that the issue isn’t worth arguing about.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 12, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
*too
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 12, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
Looking at fights more than 3-4 years ago
have little to no bearing on today. Anderson is not to blame for the weakness of the MW class, all he can do is fight who they give him.
Personally, beating Vitor, and either Okami or Sonnen again + an Anderson win in a title fight with Rua would solidify it for good for me, regardless of what happens after that.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
There is so many things wrong with this, but that’s your opinion.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
You’re a moron if you think the fight last night or his fight against Fitch were “boring”. But Silva gets a free pass for the Maia, Cote, and Leites fights huh?
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
you're a boring decision
kidding, but still- decision does not equal boring
by Body Triangle on Dec 12, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, he sure looked like a champ vs Maia and Leites
by Sqwibbs on Dec 12, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Even if you take Maia and Leties out of the equation, Silva still has more finishes in his last five fights than GSP in his last five. Shit you can even take Cote out of the equation, and Silva still has more finishes in his last five fights.
And it’s funny how you choose the only two decisions that Silva had in the UFC out of his 12 UFC fights.
I’ll admit that Silva acted like a prick in those two fights, but that was a an act of character. It had nothing to do with playing safe or being scared, like GSP does. Leites had no buisness being in there with Silva, and Silva had no desire to fight him, or Maia.
So that's why he didn't finish them? Makes sense
Rather than go in and prove how much better he was, he figured he would stay in there 23 minutes longer than he had to. I’m not saying he wasn’t clearly better than those guys, but that’s a shitty argument.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
No he just feared their Jiu Jitsu.
So he wasnt gonna rush them.
Every wrestler and Judo guy knows its easiest to take someone down when they are coming forward. So Silva tried to taunt Maia into coming at him so he didnt have to walk forward. And Leites …… that guy should be fucking ashamed of himself.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
So it's fine for Anderson to stay away from being taken down
because he fears their BJJ, but it’s not OK for GSP to take guys down because of their striking? The logic makes my head hurt. If people want to say “I don’t like GSP, and therefore I don’t think he’s the best” it would make a hell of a lot more sense. If you want to argue that Anderson’s reign has been more dominant, or he’s more “exciting,” I have absolutely no problem. But don’t take 2 similar circumstances and assign something to them with no basis in fact.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Whoa!!!!
I like Anderson better but thats not what that comment was about.
I was just saying there was thought to Anderson’s actions in those fights.He didnt wanna be taken down. I didnt say a fuckin word about gsp. Barpower was wrong, is what i was saying Anderson did fight “scared” . “Scared” to go to the ground with Bjj world champs, so he prevented it.
I dont think I like your tone sir. …….
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Also I wanted Maia to win the Anderson fight. Anderson is one of my Favs
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
But i like Maia better
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
AGAIN TAKE LEITES AND MAIA OUT OF THE PICTURE AND SILVA STILL HAS MORE FINISHES IN HIS LAST FIVE FIGHTS THAN GSP.
Again you choose two fights out of a 12. The only two decisions that Silva has in the UFC. I don’t think Silva was scared of his ju jitsu, he just couldn’t stand that Maia wouldn’t throw one punch. We’ve all seen what happens when so called great Ju jitsu guys, or wrestlers take Silva to the ground. (Lutter,Henderson,Sonnen,Marquardt.) So let’s not play that game. Silva has no problem going to the ground with guys that everyone says he shouldn’t go to the ground with. GSP wouldn’t even commit on a one eyed Koscheck. He continued to jab. You’re not going to finish anyone with just a jab. GSP lacks killer instinct. Can you imagine what Silva or even Aldo would have done to Josh in that position? And do you really think Dan Hardy’s arm wouldn’t be in Silva’s house right now if he had that armbar? COme on.
If you think going to the ground with Maia is the same going to the ground with those other guys
I really dont know what to tell you, except you have no idea what you are looking at once a fight hits the ground.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
My point is you call GSP "scared"
and basically stop just short of being a pussy. This is ridiculous and has no base in fact. I can’t stand the fact that Anderson fans can use the “he didn’t have to go into their world” argument (basically saying, Anderson kept it where he wanted), but GSP fans can’t use essentially the same argument for him. It’s asinine, and tired.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
You're missing the point.
It’s not about going into their world. I never cared about GSP standing or going to ground. He stood with Fitch, and Koscheck. My problem is even when he’s striking, he’s playing it safe. Read his interviews dude. He’ll tell himself. He doesn’t like taking chances. He doesn’t want to put himself in a situation where he might get caught. Now that might be winning strategy, but it’s not going to reward you with the status that guys like Fedor, and Silva have. And those words don’t sound like words of a champion to me.
He said he does what he has to to win
but if he flat out doesn’t want to finish, then why did he throw multiple head kicks last night? Or hooks? Or attempt to take Kos’ back every time he took him down? I must have been imagining all that.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Okay, now I have to go find the article, and post it for you.
And I never said he doesn’t want to finish, I said he lacks killer instinct. Which is why it’s hard for him to finish. Face it, Matt Serra took his soul. Facts are facts, when your last 4 out of 5 fights are decisions, calling you the best MMA fighter in the world is laughable.
I could agree with the decisions argument
if they weren’t so dominant. The beating he put on Fitch would finish 99% of fighters. I’m still unsure as to how Hardy didn’t tap to either the armbar or the kimura. The Penn domination was a thing of beauty. So tell me, what would your opinion be if the Fitch and Hardy fights had been stopped? Somehow, I think your mind would not be so set, even though the way he fought in each would be the exact same.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Indeed.
While I remain neutral on this issue, I could argue that the reason GSP hasn’t been finishing is because the fighters he’s faced are so much better.
I’m not going there though.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
Yea
apparently no one’s going to let that argument fly.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Better fighters are harder to finish?
Inconceivable!
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 8:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Tougher?
So Anderson moves up to LHW and knocks out the former champion within 15 seconds, something Shogun, Rashad, or Rampage couldn’t do, yet GSP has tougher comp, that’s why he can’t finish? Thatt excuse is not worthy. No way.
Again, when was this 15 second KO?
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
HUH?
When did I say his fights wern’t dominant. Quit creating your own arguments. Now you’re just fighting with yourself.
I never said he wasn’t dominant, I said he can’t finish. Hughes, and Penn and Serra are the only men he can finish, it looks like. Hardy didn’t tap because GSP is not a finisher, he lacks killer instinct. Put Silva or BJ in that same position, and Hardy no longer has an arm.
Now, you’re asking me a hypothetical question, because those fights were not stopped, so that question really doesnt’ matter, and doesn’t need to be answered.
So it would be better if
he got dominated for 4.5 rounds and then got a finish?
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Absolutley.
The end result is all that matters. Ask Muhummad Ali or anyone else what his greatest victory was, or the fight that made him a legend, or the fight that’s most remembered, and they’ll all tell you, thrilla in Manilla, is comeback victory over George Foreman. Go and watch that fight. And getting dominated from the number two fighter on steroids, while having an injured rib, is more impressive than anything GSP has accomplished in my opinion.
How about getting dominated
by a wrestler notorious for not sticking to his wrestling base (Hendo), or a non-top 10 challenger who was emaciated as shit and couldn’t even make weight (Lutter). Basically, you’re saying that you only need to dominate a fight long enough to finish it, whereas I think that there should be plenty of weight given to displaying dominance for 25 straight minutes and never being in trouble.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
YUP
Getting dominated and by a two time Pride champ, Hendo, and even getting dominated by Lutter who tapped out on his own game, is a lot more respectable than getting knocked out and tapping out to strikes by a UFC reject who wasn’t even in the top 10. And I’m keeping it all the the UFC, not their careers before that. I didn’t even want to go there, but since you want to take it back to older fights, hey, I had to do it. And again, it’s easy to get dominated when you actually fight with a purpose rather than fight safe.
And my point
as it was earlier, is that if you’re going to go to a fighter’s low point, regardless of where it happened, you’re going to have a pretty short (read: nonexistent) list. You have to take the fighter’s entire body of work, regardless of venue, into consideration because we’re not only considering UFC fighters for “greatest MMA fighter ever.” If it was “greatest UFC fighter ever,” then yes, Anderson wins. But you have to remember most of GSP’s career has taken place in the octagon, Anderson’s hasn’t. Therefore, we’ve seen Georges’ low points on a grander scale.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
He outwrestled him in the 1st
then tried to stand in the 2nd
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
But he didn't acomplish anything on the feet
The fight ended up back on the ground, where Hendo was confortable, and he got choked out. I don’t understand your point. Hendo dominated the fight on the ground only. Not the feet.
His wrestling isn't what got the fight to the ground
he tried to stand, got rocked and taken to the ground, where he was choked out.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
RIght, he tried to stand and got rocked to the ground.
YOu said, “what about getting dominated by a wrestler notorious to not sticking to his wrestling base” What point were you trying to make by saying he doesn’t stick to his wrestling base. The only conclusion I get from that is that you were trying to insinuate that Hendo dominated Silva on the feet. No, Silva only dominated when it was on the ground. He lost the stand up war.
No
my point was, he got dominated by Hendo when he stuck to his wrestling. When he got away from his wrestling and tried to bang (which he is notorious for), he got fucked up.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
And Silva dominated the standup
which is how it ended up on the floor again in the 2nd (with Anderson in control).
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Oh okay
So, that really doesn’t help your point, when a two time Pride champion in two different weight classes dominates Silva on the ground, when his backround is Grecko wrestling, but still get’s chocked out on the ground. That fight wasn’t a good example for you.
Actually it was
if you read at all what I said. I said when he sticks to his wrestling base. And he didn’t, got knocked silly, and taken to his back (not while wrestling, mind you), and choked out. It would prove your point if he had taken Anderson down, been reversed and subbed.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Oh I see what you're saying.
But isn’t that all speculative? I mean, look what he ended up doing to lutter. He reversed Lutter, he reversed Marquardt. And he tapped out Sonnen, who is a younger and arguably better wrestler than Hendo. SO getting dominated on the ground by a far more surperior wrestler, and Pride champ, only to out grapple him on the ground in the second round, regardless of how he got to the round, is a pretty moot point, no?
And
And I have looked at the body of work. Everyone has dissapointing losses. But GSP was the UFC champion when he got knocked out cold by MAtt Serra who wasn’t even top ten. When Anderson Silva had his losses in Pride, he wasn’t even a top 10 fighter yet. He didn’t realy become the Anderson we see today until he wound up in Cage rage. The best GSP tapped out to punches.
I think we’ve seen (and even you have to admit) that was NOT the best GSP
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
So who was it that finished Hughes at 79 and Serra at 83?
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 7:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If that were so
Big Nog was a shitty fighter in PRIDE…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
You're not going finish anyone with a jab??
What did Anderson finish Forrest with??
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
Silva is a freak, that's why.
I knew that was coming, lol. Now, that just helps validate my point that Silva is the best. He’s something special to pull that off.
Obviously not
and clearly, Anderson was looking to knock out Forrest with that punch.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Lord have mercy.
Oh give it a rest, stop trying to make a fight out of that. IT was the first round, and Silva obviously has the technical prowress to do something like that. GSP had Koshcheck in a wonded position. I mean he was bascially holding out a sign saying “Finsish me”.
Who's trying to make a fight?
I don’t think it’s ridiculous to ask that you actually, you know, use facts and logic. The bottom line is he repeatedly caught Forrest, and Forrest gave up. Was it an awesome display of striking? Absolutely. But quit acting like it was a 1-ton jab or something.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What facts are you looking for?
I was making a point that jabs don’t knock people out usually. What argument are you trying to make out of this
And Forrest wasn't knocked out
watch the fight again. He got knocked down because he was coming forward, and he quit after realizing he wasn’t going to be competitive.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Oh , so you're now arguing whether he was actually knocked out cold or not. That's the argument we have stuped down to? LOL.
Have you read his record. It says Loss KO(punch). Why are you making petty arguments?
My point is
the jab didn’t KO him. You’re saying jabs don’t KO people, unless they’re thrown by Anderson Silva. That jab didn’t KO him. I think it’s pretty clear what I’m saying. As I’ve stated multiple times, that was the 3rd time in the fight Forrest had been put down. He realized he wasn’t going to be able to compete. So he quit.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The jab KO'd him
It’s not a medical term.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
When I think KO
I think Danzig-Stevenson, Evans-Liddell, Gonzaga-Cro Cop, or any other example you can think of. I don’t think of a fighter ending up on the mat, putting his arms up basically giving up. Then getting up and running to the locker room. My bad
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Well, it's not subjective
It’s a combat sports term and it’s what happened. The finish was ruled a KO.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
It means that the fight was stopped conclusively and not because of the refs involvement. It doesn’t mean he was sleeping.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Well in that case
Aleks E. KO’d Bengtsson with a jab. You can argue terminology all you want, it’s the result we’re after.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
Okay Brock, So Anderson moved up to LHW, and knocked down the former Light heavy weight champion, forcing the former light heavy weight champion to quit, which Rampage, Shogun, Rashad couldn't do. And every fighting stat has it ranked as a KO,
but since poster Brock, doesn’t see it as a KO, and because he knows better than everyone else in the world, we’ll just call it something else. DOes that make you feel better?
Jesus
maybe you could just try understanding what my original point was. But eh, whatever, I’m fucking done here. Yes, go ahead and talk about how you “ran me off” or whatever other forum speak you choose. I’m tired of repeatedly explaining myself. The bottom line, as I’ve stated before, is that I really don’t even know where I stand on the issue, but the tired logic of GSP “not trying to finish fights” is played out. You want to argue that Anderson’s resume is better or that his performances have been more impressive, go ahead. But don’t try to make some excuse like Anderson has a magical jab that knocks people out.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
I'm not a little kid, so I don't look at arguments in that way, like running someone off, or what ever.
YOu think I’m not tired of arguing this? I feel like you tried to drag me into arguing about something that I wasn’t even initially debating. And I didn’t say Anderson had a magical jab. I did say he was special though. Shit, i ended up in that conversation with another kid anyway.
Dude he wasn't KO'ed
Brock8144 is right, Silva broke Forrest’s will rather easily and he Forrest just gave up.
Why are you arguing this?
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
It is a KO by definition. Do you watch MMA?
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
KO in MMA is when your lights go completely out. That’s why there is other things like TKO to end a match as well, I don’t see why you can not understand this.
Forrest was conscious when the fight was stopped, he even lifted his arm as Silva was coming in to signal “no more”.
So your argument is that he was technically knocked out. Fair argument, but Sherdog has it listed as a KO, so does every other stat sheet, but I guess you know better than them?
You know better than one of the top MMA sites that is sponsered by ESPN.
SO if you want to argue with someone about it, argue with them.
Thanks
I’ve now determined, for the future, that you have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Dec 12, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
yeah that was like the third or fourth knock down.
plus Anderson is the grim reaper. Its not fair to compair mortals to him.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
compare*
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Needs updating, but awesome.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 12, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Those 2 fights were his ONLY decision wins in the UFC.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
LOL, Silva hasn’t fought like a champ in a MW title fight in forever. If that’s your catch phrase, the evidence doesn’t support it.
by Hardcharger on Dec 12, 2010 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
IS that a joke.
Yeah, knocking out the former Light heavyweight champ in 15 seconds isn’t fighting like a champ. Neither is getting pounded on from a roided up freak while you have an injured rib, to pull off the most incredble comeback submission in ages. I guess finishing 10 out of 12 UFC fights in spectacular fashion doesn’t equate to fighting like a champ either. PLease shut up little boy.
I'd like to know
when he knocked out the former LHW champ in 15 seconds. Sounds like it would be a pretty awesome fight.
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
So Forrest was not a light heavyweight champion?
What are you debating here, the time? It couldn’t have been much more than 15 seconds.
It was over halfway through the round
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
If you’re going to sensationalize everything it doesn’t give you much credibility
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sonnen on roids isnt a freak ,
He is a heavier , mouthier , no guard passing Jon Fitch.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 12, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Eh
Dominating your division is one thing. And amazing.
But Pac-Man isn’t goat cuz he stayed in his division and/or beat up a smaller guy (Penn). Boxing is different from MMA of course, but there needs to be a new challenge.
GSP still has plenty to prove.
You look at guys like Fedor and Silva and they dominate men who are bigger than they are.
by DoubleHeadedEagle on Dec 12, 2010 4:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Also.
Silva has done more and won more in a row than GSP for his own division. If you just want to look at stats like winning a lot of rounds.
by DoubleHeadedEagle on Dec 12, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Tallest maybe
Certainly not largest. He fights at 185-188. Sonnen was 20 pounds heavier that night.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 12, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Can you give me a source? Soares has gone on record saying Silva cuts from 230….its hard to believe he only rehydrates 2-3 lbs. And Silva used to cut to 167 in Shooto!!
He has had a reach advantage over all his previous opponents and thats what really matters to Silva as he is a striker.
I call bullshit, Silva is easily over 200 on fight night.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
by ufc4 on Dec 12, 2010 8:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Thats what im saying, some guys have this cutting weight thing down to a science haha. Silva is 6’2-6’3! Just look at the weigh in pics for the Griffin fight.
That is true, but
Anderson is not one of them as he really doesn’t cut at all in the correct sense of the word. Even thought the prep process starts as much as 7 days prior to weigh-in, the actual cutting itself (i.e. rapid dehydration) starts around 24 hours prior to weigh-in.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
Except he's not
see below
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
Obviously not when he fights at LHW
I was speaking, and I assumed ufc4 was as well, about his fights at MW.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
That pic is just to contrast how big he is. His tricep is bigger than Griffins haha..and Griffin is one of the largest light-heavys.
I’m not familiar with Griffin’s weight cutting or lack thereof, but if that is a weigh-in pic and he does cut, he would be “deflated” by 20-30 pounds, most of it water at roughly 8.35 pounds (and 231 cubic inches) per gallon, so he will look considerably different at fight time.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
No, Ed said he walks around at (220 I think actually) 230
That has no bearing on what he enters the cage at.
Prior to the Maia fight:
He noted on the Countdown, filmed nearly two weeks ago, that he was already down to 192 and would be 185 before even getting on the plane to Abu Dhabi.
From http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/4/8/1410763/reflections-on-anderson-silva
If what they claimed is true, and I have no reason to doubt them, then Anderson weighed somewhere in the 185-188 range in the cage.
Sonnen was reported to enter the cage at 207 IIRC, meaning he was roughly 207 48 hours prior to weigh-in as well.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
You’re saying he cut 22 pounds in 2 days? Sorry but I’m not buying that one either.
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
That is how true weight cutting works
GSP, Sonnen, Maynard – guys who truly use scientific weight cutting – that is how it works.
I’m not going into too much detail in a forum like this because of the potential for someone really screwing it up and causing organ damage, but the process starts about 7 days out, and much of it is counter-intuitive for those with a fair degree of knowledge about physiology (such as sodium loading), but it involves ‘tricking" or “fooling” the body’s systems to accomplish what is needed.
Intentionally dehydrating one self for an extended period of time would be far more dangerous and counterproductive as it would screw with training abilities.
Look around on google, I am sure there are others with less worry about misleading people than I have who go into more detail about it.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
Proven weight cutting methods and science, much like proven powerlifting methods
are very counter-intuitive to those who have a fairly strong knowledge base in physiology and training methods.
They were closely held in many cases for a long time, but they are out there if you know what to look for or who to ask.
What is funny is that so many guys, even pros, don’t really understand either part. While I’ll admit it is difficult to tell from images alone, the Diaz brothers for example look like they just diet/train down to 155/160 for the most part, when they could easily enter the cage at 170-175 if they did it right.
If I had to guess, I would say Maynard for example fights around 180.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Here is a link
that gives you a different look at it.
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/01/18/how-to-cut-weight/
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
But Pac-Man isn’t goat cuz he stayed in his division and/or beat up a smaller guy
Pacman isn’t the GOAT, and jumping divisions in boxing is a very, very different thing due to the far greater number of weight – classes, and contrasting athletic demands.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 12, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I friggin love GSP and all that he has done
but have a very hard time saying somebody who tapped to strikes and admittedly plays it safe is the GOAT. Not just yet.
He's the GOAT
If he stepped in to brawl he might get more knockouts or he might get knocked out. He’s not a coward, just incredibly patient and strategic. Plus, he broke Koschek’s face, used the swollen eye to mask left hooks and high kicks, and threw power shots all in an attempt to finish the fight. I don’t know what more people want from the dude.
Plus, the whole tapped to strikes thing is irrelevant now. Anyone who smashes or dominates Fitch, Serra, Alves, Penn, Hughes, Sherk, Hardy, and Koschek is not a wuss and has nothing to be ashamed of.
Finishes Don't Matter.
What matters is domination. No other champ right now gets in the octagon and makes the very best competition in their weight class look like they don’t belong there. What does the finish matter? If GSP had Ko’d or subbed Kos in the at some point in that fight, would that have made it any more one sided? The answer is no.
It's easy to dominate a fight when you fight like GSP. (SAFE)
Sure, Fedors confidence caught up with him, but he won more than 30 fights in a row fighting like a champ. That’s why he’s considered legend. That’s why Shogun will be remembered. That’s why Silva is the best right now. They fight like champs. And you’re bound to take some damage when you fight like that.
by barpower on Dec 12, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It must be pretty easy to dominate Fitch, KOS,…..Others have had so much luck. Dumbest thing I’ve heard in a long time. Thanks.
The criteria of being more reckless might make for one of two more highlight reel clips, but it doesn’t have anything to do with showing what is most important – how much better are you than your competition.
by 1Mandos1 on Dec 12, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Why do you call it reckless?
Is Jose Aldo reckless?
Is Jose Aldo wreckless? 18 wins, 12 knock outs, 2 submissions, only 4 decisions in his entire career. 1 loss. Current champion. Always fights his heart out. Is he reckless? I can give you many more examples. Is Cain reckless, he’s the only guy that has dethroned Brock Lesnar. Would he have been able to do that if he played it safe like GSP? You can fight like a champion, and actually fight, and still be smart about it. Stop trying to equate reckless with actually going out there and fighting.
Glad you decided what "fight like a champion" means....
The problem is that you equate fighting like a champ with finishing fights. I’m not sure why.
A finish is just one way to win a fight. It isn’t even all that indicative of dominance over your opponent. There are numerous cases where a fighter gets pummeled over a fight and gets fortunate to steal a win with a KO or Sub in the late rounds (often BECAUSE their opponent takes chances that aren’t worth the cost).
What is important to, if we’re trying to decide on a fighters legacy, is whether they fought the best, and how dominant they were over their competition. The WW division in the UFC is certainly one of the least fractured talent pools in MMA (unlike say heavyweight where there is a case to be made for fighters outside the UFC) Against this talent pool, GSP has made the very best look like they don’t belong in the octagon with him. He takes the fight to them and punishes them – whether its out wrestling them or out striking them. No one has mounted a serious threat to his title. These are opponents who have made other top fighters look helpless (KOS over Daley, Fitch over Alves, Alves over KOS, BJ over Hughes etc. etc.)
Silva/Fedor/GSP are all in this conversation and ultimately this isn’t something that we’re going to easily pinpoint in a thread debate. But its clear all of these fighters deserve to be in the conversation (not Aldo yet. Sorry, give him some more fights).
Once again, Bloody Elbow has the best analysis.
I really agree with this post. Silva and Emelianenko have not faced the level of competition that Georges has on a consistent basis. He’s the best fighter in the short history of MMA. I wonder though, what his secret is. Sure he’s got the great genetics, that’s always talked about. He’s also got crazy discipline, perfectionism, and a personal code of ethics. That’s all significant and helpful, but I wonder how much his style of decentralized training has to do with it though. It seems like he’s one of the few who travels all over the world (New York, the Phillipines, Brazil, New Mexico, etc.) for one fight. He also tends to focus on immersive training with specialists in individual disciplines before putting it all together prior to a fight. Is this sort of thing as uncommon as I think it is? I guess a lot of fighters wouldn’t have the money to do that sort of thing.
He already told you what his secret is. He fights safe. He doesn’t take chances. And I’m sorry, but saying his competition is better on a constant basis is kind of silly. I don’t think Matt Serra Hughes or BJ count seeing as one was past his prime, one was a natural lightweight, and one shouldn’t have even been there, (even though he won the first fight).
Silva moving up to LHW and knocking out the former champ in 15 seconds trumps anything GSP has done.
Except it wasn't 15 seconds
Nothing happened for the first minute of that fight. It was actually more like 3 minutes.
The point still stands, however.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
And it still required Forrest coming forward
I don’t remember too many of GSP’s opponents wildly rushing at him flailing wild punches, and then quitting after realizing they couldn’t hit him
"There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy." -Mark Rippetoe
by Brock8144 on Dec 12, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think so. Yet.
In my opinion, GSP and Silva’s careers have yet to truly be played out. (Fedor’s too, but I think we’ve had enough time to evaluate his career in a logical manner) They have many fights left in them, and until history sorts out what kind of competition these men really faced it’s hard to choose a GOAT.
We should just be thankful we’re fans in this era with such unbelievable talents.
And who knows? Maybe they’ll fight one day and just settle the damn thing.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
“and Jake Shields is the only fighter in the division with some attractiveness for fans. Unfortunately, he’ll need to produce an impressive victory to get his shot,” —→ How did you manage to write this with Dana White confirming Shields will get the title shot right away three posts down in a post-fight-interview?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
at fitst i was inclined to agree
But on second thought I don’t think gsp has a more impressive resume than Anderson. Gsp although fighting in the shark tank that is the ww div has fought quite a few ppl multiple times. Hughes 3x, Penn 2x, Serra 2x, & koscheck 2×. All impressive wins but not more impressive than Anderson in my opinion who has wins in 3 different weight classes, has a 13 fight win streak(including names like hendo, Franklin, marquardt, griffin, maia etc.) Holds the ufc record for consecutive wins & title defenses & finishes fights! Silva is the goat
by liquidation247 on Dec 12, 2010 6:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I understand why people say MW isn’t stacked, but I think that’s do to the fact that Anderson is head and shoulders above everyone else at MW. Take out Anderson and suddenly MW looks like LHW, a stacked division where each top ranked match is a real pick-em fight. And I know this has been said so many times but the Griffin fight? That was just brutal and sad and amazing all and the same time. His finishing rate is the icing on the cake as far as being the best ever for me. It separates him from GSP. GSP says he tries to finish, he just fails. Anderson finishes when he wants to finish. When he doesn’t wan to finish his fights, are clear cases of complete domination and humiliation.
Silva or GSP as GOAT
i don’t care. they share in greatness what other fighters (champs) lack. at the end of either a Silva or GSP fight the opponent feel mentally defeated. KO and sub be damned. these two men take something more than a victory when they leave the octagon, they take the other fighters spirit.
now, they do it in different ways and both can be frustrating to behold, but damn if it’s not effective. Silva torments and toys w/ his opponents in what many see as an arrogant way. perhaps, but it is effective. GSP is IMHO, trying to make his opponent see that after he is done being dominated, he never wants to step in to the octagon again. KO and subs leave excuses available. i.e. Flash KO, Lucky Submission. Look back at the eyes of all of GSPs last 7 opponents. they are done, mentally finished. look at Sonnens face after dominating a man for 24.5 minutes and then losing, same thing
these men are the tippy-top of the food chain. that is all we need to know.
Fedor is the GOAT
But St. Pierre and Anderson make compelling cases for the UFC Goat. I think that is an undecided question. They need to fight eachother. Maybe the winner could be moved past Fedor. Unless Fedor gets through Overeem and Werdum in a rematch(the best striking and submission HW’s of all time pedigree/skillwise).
Then good luck ever convincing me Fedor isn’t the greatest of all time.
Wolfgangsta @ www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Dec 12, 2010 7:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
while the GOAT arguement to me is pointless
I concede that Fedor does both mentally and physically defeat his opponent..
by F'n Clownshoes on Dec 12, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Wow.
Reading your post just made me realize SF has the best of the best as far as HW goes.
Striking-Alistair, newly crowned K-1 champ
Submission-Werdum, current and multiple time ADCC champ
Wrestling-Cormier, Olympic level wrestling and uses it effectively to finish fights
And lastly, best all-around HW- Fedor……needs no explanation
I would argue that
Cain Velazquez has the best all-around game of all the HW’s right now…but that’s me.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
Ehhh...i see where you're coming from but
Cain is much too green at the moment, and his striking has only looked so good because he has mostly battled guys with mediocre stand-up. We still need to see his sub def and sub off, as well as a lil bit more of his striking.
But you can definitely argue for him. Cain has a very strong argument going his way.
Which is precisely why my dream fight is Fedor vs. Cain
As far as I see it, Fedor is the only HW who also has a well-rounded enough skill set to push Cain.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
Especially in the striking and submission department. Cain would have his hands full.
Cain has also said his dream fight would be Fedor btw.
Cormier would beat any UFC HW IMO,
probably excepting Cain.
I think Cain is the best right now, with his MMA wrestling, but we really need to see his submission defense to say for certain.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
I may be too high on his hype train
but I agree with you. And Cormier might beat Cain. He certainly hits harder and has better wrestling credentials. Could put Cain down on the feet. I’ve been saying for awhile that Cormier could beat Brock or Mir, he has all the talent to be a top 10 heavyweight, it’s just about his level of competition right now.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I'll be honest
I fell for the bigger, stronger, faster hype that was Lesnar and underestimated Cain and what people I trust said about him, but I would love, love, love to see Cain and Cormier go at it.
Having said that, I totally agree and would love to see him move up a notch in competition level although he is still quite green at MMA. Even a loss to a top-15 guy wouldn’t hurt him right now, much like a loss to a top-3 guy would only improve Jones in the long run.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
I never totally believed is Lesnar.
I don’t think I’ve ever totally believed in a heavyweight besides Fedor, and even with him I expected him to lose ever fight. I called the Werdum loss right when the bell rang (but I also called him to lose to Sylvia and Arlovski, so I was bound to be right eventually). Still though, I never believed in Brock as much as I disbelieved in his opponents. The win over Carwin was fucking epic though And I didn’t believe in Cain until he beat Nog.
Still, Cormier has dynamite in his hands and better wrestling credentials than anybody else at heavyweight. He is yet to be tested in any aspect of the game. Based on what I’ve seen there’s no reason to doubt him aside from lack of opportunity. Cormier should fight Bigfoot and gain a top ranking off that win next.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I agree
and that would be an excellent next fight for Cormier. Even if he somehow loses, and I can’t really see how aside from the proverbial “puncher’s chance”, its not that big of a set back for one so new to MMA.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
Right. Plus, it's heavyweight
and his transition game has looked good on top of having an exemplary wrestling base. His standup is still rudimentary, but at this weight class who cares? I hope he gets a shot at the big time before his athletic prime has passed.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
As do I
and unlike many around here, I am not generally down on Strikeforce per se, but their ability to essentially force guys into fights doesn’t seem to match zuffa’s.
Bigfoot might well take that fight, but I seriously doubt the other top guys would – its much like Jones at LHW, far too much risk for too little upside.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 2:14 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't you pick Kos to knock out GSP?
GSP jabbed him to death and didn’t finish a guy with one eye, and now you think he’s the best ever?
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 7:13 PM EST reply actions
Here’s another example of someone who doesn’t read very well. Both my preview and prediction pointed out that GSP had every advantage. I picked Koscheck simply because I like his demeanor toward the fight game and just like him in general. It was a biased pick. My preview stated GSP should win handily, which he did.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
And even so,
it’s not like you’re never allowed to change your mind about things ever. It IS okay for people to look at things with a different perspective after the fact.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
Well… people must think I have to pick intelligently in the prediction post. I don’t have to. I can pick however I like. I made that pick a fun one.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
A prediction is what you think will happen. You thought Kos would win by knock out, did you not?
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Dec 12, 2010 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
No. I thought he’d get his ass kicked. My prediction was purely fanboyism, which is what I stated. I wanted Koscheck to win via KO, but did I actually think it’d happen? It was a very, very small chance.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
I think the clearest argument against Silva
Is that I can envision a fighter who beats him handily, and that is an elite wrestler (Chael Sonnen) with better sub defense than Chael Sonnen. I can’t think of any kind of fighter who beats GSP, let alone handily.
If Silva gets past Vitor, we will see him against a great wrestler with good sub defense in Okami, but I wouldn’t call Okami an elite wrestler. Still, I’m pretty excited for that fight, given the long amount of time Okami will have to really shore up his takedowns before facing off with the Spider.
That's not the clearest argument, that's your argument, and your opinion.
And that’s fine, but it’s not a clear argument. It’s speculation. The counter to that hypothetical is that, Sonnen already lost to Silva. He was on steroids, and Silva had an injured rib and was told not to fight, by his doctor which we will see in the documentary. Who knows what will happen the next fight, but my opinion is Sonnen loses pretty badly this time, and quickly. But it’s all opinion. Using hypotheticals, or speculation as your criteria to make an opinion is no good. You just have to use the facts in fron tof you now. I mean, could we have expected Serra to knock out GSP when he did? No. So, using hypotheitcals is a no no. You shouldn’t do it.
I thought the fact it was my opinion was implied
In the fact that it’s a comment on a post on an mma blog, the subject matter of which is the “opinion” that GSP is the GOAT. There is no way to define a GOAT in any sport without speculative “opinion”, except for maybe a sport like Track & Field, where you could say the GOAT in any particular event is the world record holder, but even that is debatable.
How exactly, do you propose, that we define a GOAT without any speculation? At some point in your argument, you’re going to bring rankings into the equation, because quite frankly, in arguing about the GOAT you have to. Rankings are inherently speculative and opinion based. Ipso facto, any discussion of the GOAT in mma will involve speculation and opinion. You speculate that Silva would badly beat Sonnen in a rematch. I speculate that Silva is vulnerable to elite wrestlers with good submission defense. The point is to base your speculation on some bit of reality. I think we have both done that here. I know Silva claims a rib injury, and I know Sonnen tested positive for elevated testosterone, but its still all speculation on how a rematch would come out. I suspect you’re right in that Silva would win, but I think again it would be a sub from the bottom, as that has always been Sonnen’s achilles heel. Because of Sonnens performance though, it showed me how an elite wrestler could take down Silva without too much trouble, and keep him there for the better part of 25 minutes. Since the Serra fight, GSP hasn’t even shown a hint of weakness. He hasn’t lost a round. And I can’t think of what kind of fighter would give him problems, other than an elite wrestler with elite standup, or basically, a better version of GSP. So unless future GSP hops in a time machine to come back and beat current GSP, I can’t think of anyone who could beat him.
by IWillPartyHard on Dec 12, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So wait, yesterday you were predicting the upset
Today, GSP “certifies status”?
You sir, have flip-flopped.
That seems like a bit of a stretch
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 12, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
You sir… are illiterate. Try reading the preview first, then come back and debate this legitimately.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Oh please
Yes I read your preview, about how even though you’re “picking” Koscheck you still thought the odds were that GSP would win. But by picking Koscheck from a betting perspective, you’re suggesting there were holes in GSP’s game Koscheck might exploit.
What were those holes? Have you forgotten them in your rush to embrace GSP’s low-hanging fruit?
by Organ-Donor on Dec 12, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
What does predicting a GSP loss before the fight have to do with his P4P placing after the fact?
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
From a betting perspective? Huh?
There were holes in GSP’s game. His wrestling is a particular hole when going up against Koscheck, but GSP has the ultimate counter to that. A quick jab and speed, which he used effectively for the entire fight, taking the wind out of Koscheck’s sails. The one time that Koscheck shot, got the clinch, and the body lock, GSP was on his back.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 12, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
That, and
GSP kept working on those leg kicks, esp the inside leg kick, so Kos’ shot would be weakening as the fight went on.
I was still surprised to see he didn’t open the 2nd trying to take GSP down, even by then he had to know that was his only real chance…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 13, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
"one time that Koscheck shot"
The one time Koscheck shot…? He landed 1 out of 4 takedown attempts. You’re kind of downplaying how well GSP defended, I think.
Oh, and GSP got 4 out of 9 takedown attempts. Well below his average, but 4 ouf ot 9 isn’t bad against a Division 1 champion. Also, in their first match, Koscheck also had only landed 1 out of 4 takedown attempts, while GSP had landed both his tries.
Fedor fought much bigger men and has a very high finish percentage
nuff said
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Dec 12, 2010 8:20 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
finish rates are not the litmus test.....
to greatness.
by F'n Clownshoes on Dec 12, 2010 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
I still believe Fedor is the GOAT for multiple reasons but I wont argue against the idea that it is GSP – it is legit.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach
by vivero on Dec 12, 2010 8:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??
and agree that GSP, while maybe not being the GOAT, is at least the most well-rounded fighter we’ve ever seen?
We all know about his wrestling, his striking is super-tight, and he’s got submission skills.
Forget it Donny. You're out of your element.
gsp is a paradigm shift on the past present and future of MMA
and the greatest sanitation engineer-turned-fighter EVAH
You must defeat me to stand a chance.
Good write up. My only argument is that Askren could challenge GSP. Maybe in the future, but he’s no where near GSP’s level yet. I don’t want to sound like I’m down on Ben because I have trained with him and he is a really good guy and freakishly talented but he is still pretty new to MMA and not anywhere near as well rounded as GSP or even Koscheck. If they fought now I think GSP would simply destroy him on the feet. We all know Ben isn’t a guy with a blast double which means he would have to be able to close the distance on GSP and get the clinch to take GSP down. Right now I feel like his striking isn’t good enough and he would get lit up on the way in. I’d say lets give him 2 or 3 years to become a more well rounded fighter then have this discussion again.
I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!
It’s funny that people really get hardcore on arguing who is best of all time when the person they at arguing for or against is still in the middle of an active career. Gsp could lose is next two or get injured or he could win 3 titles in 3 divisions. It’s a liminal argument.
by troutki on Dec 12, 2010 10:35 PM EST via mobile reply actions
This argument can/will never be settled. It’s just too difficult to be objective and compare fighters in a sport like MMA. Different weight classes, different opponents who all have their own individual skillsets – there is just no way to settle the argument fairly, but it makes for interesting discussion. GSP is an amazing fighter, but I still believe that Anderson Silva is the best fighter in the sport.
MMA Memorabilia & Collectibles from the best fighters in the world
by CSC Memorabilia on Dec 13, 2010 7:20 AM EST reply actions
I still have Fedor above GSP
Fedor made a living dominating guys much larger than him in a weight division that can leave you with a 60+ pound weight differential. Fedor has dominated his opponents and is willing to take the fight to his opponent’s strength, which can be dangerous at times (Werdum); however, this is what makes him so much fun to watch. He goes in their every time looking to finish, and puts himself right in the pocket. GSP tends to pick his opponents apart, but plays it safe if he knows he’s got a victory in the bag. Whether this strategy can be attributed to GSP or his trainers, it still reflects negatively on GSP if we’re having the “Greatest of All Time” debate".
Anderson’s antics and taunting bjj fighters who wish to take the fight to the ground also disqualifies him from the “Greatest of all Time” discussion. While GSP and Silva are both amazing fighters, they both have a knack for playing it safe. I’d still rank Fedor as the “Greatest of all Time”.
by Stroma on Dec 13, 2010 11:15 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Fedor dominated the weakest division in MMA.
at the top levels.
I am not a huge GSP fan, but beating Hughes twice, Penn Twice, Koscheck Twice, as well as Fitch, and Alves is much more impressive, even though I don’t really enjoy all of his fights.
"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."
by Broke Lesnar on Dec 13, 2010 11:32 AM EST reply actions
Fitch and Koscheck are good fighters, but I could never categorize them as “great” fighters. GSP beat a true lightweight in Penn, and used his size/strength advantage to wear him down. A good example of GSP using his size advantage where more often than not Fedor is undersized in his fights. Then there’s the whole argument where GSP plays it safe, a very smart strategy, but hurts him when having the “Greatest of All Time” discussion; Fedor still holds that title while GSP and Anderson are both two of the sport’s greats.
Opponents
I don’t understand this argument that WW is so much better than MW. Jon Fitch is considered second to GSP (I have Shields) but what does FItch do?? He’s not that good of a fighter. He doesn’t even fight; he just lays on people and then can’t even submit them. In his last 5 fights, this guy has been on the ground for the majority of 75 minutes and still can’t submit one person?? Thiago Alves is just overrated. I’m sorry, beating John Howard and an over the hill Matt Hughes is not impressive. Koscheck is just hot garbage. Whoever thought he changed or evolved fell into the Dana White hype instead of just watching his fights.
GSP has faced NCAA Wrestlers and that’s great. Koscheck was a beast, Matt Hughes was an All-American (even though the highest he placed was 5th).
Did Anderson not face an Olympian in Dan Henderson and a juiced up Olympic Alternative (All-American, NCAA Champion, and 2nd in World Championship) in Chael Sonnen???
Fitch and Demian Maia have NO standup but I would take Demian Maia in a grappling match any day of the week skill wise. Chael is a straight up better fighter than Koscheck (using Koscheck because he’s the only person whose NCAA resume is better than Chael’s to my knowledge). Thiago Alves would not beat Nate Marquardt nor Yushin Okami.
As far as his victories over BJ Penna and Sherk along with his 1-1 against Matt Serra……..I’m sorry to break to you guys but those are lightweights.
The reason the MW division gets crapped on is because Anderson MADE IT LOOK THAT BAD!!!
by Dane Robertson on Dec 14, 2010 10:04 AM EST reply actions
The reason the MW division gets crapped on is because Anderson MADE IT LOOK THAT BAD!!!
Funny, I was going to say the exact same thing as a rebuttal to you saying the WW division sucks… GSP’s making everyone else in the division look bad. The difference is that GSP’s been making the division looking bad for three years now while never even being close to losing while Anderson has struggled more than once… Dan Henderson gave him problems, Lutter gave him problems, and more recently, Chael Sonnen gave him a ton of problems and I’d probably favor him in a rematch. GSP dominates his division a lot more than Anderson Silva does, and that, despite being in a much deeper division than Silva is. IMO, of course.
Interesting
The only way you can use a rebuttal to me saying the WW division sucks, is for me to have first said it sucks……..which I didn’t.
I find it interesting you bring up Travis Lutter even though that was around the time GSP tapped to punches from basically a Lightweight.
I’m not saying GSP is a bad fighter. He’s been on a heck of a run. Of course I would pick Anderson. However, both of them have dominated their division. If they didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
My point is that the thought of the MW division being garbage or below the WW division and St.Pierre having this ridiculous quality of opponents is blown out of proportion.
As you can see in my post……I only focused on those two interesting opinions that are starting to be purported as fact.
by Dane Robertson on Dec 14, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
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