UFC 124 Preview: Josh Koscheck Battles Georges St. Pierre for the UFC Welterweight Crown
by Leland Roling on Dec 11, 2010 10:52 AM EST
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In what could be considered one of the most highly-anticipated title showdowns in recent memory, current UFC welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre (20-2, 15-2 UFC) will aim to defend his crown as he battles fellow The Ultimate Fighter season twelve coach and #1 contender Josh Koscheck (15-4, 13-4 UFC). The bout's anticipation level has exploded over the past few days due to a weigh-in that saw Josh Koscheck booed with discontent by Montreal fans while Georges St. Pierre received a hero's welcome. Many of the interviews in the lead-up to the event have also been pure gold in producing a storyline that may make this one of the most significant love-hate relationships we've ever seen between a fighter and the fans. Whether you love or hate Josh Koscheck, he has single handedly created an atmosphere for success in a business sense for the UFC.
But that's only half of the intrigue in the match-up. While producing incredible revenues from a single event is something the UFC strives for, Josh Koscheck will be hoping that he can shock the world on Saturday night by dethroning the champion and walking out of the arena smirking with the UFC welterweight belt around his waist. Most fans don't see that happening, and the bookmakers have tabbed Koscheck as a near 4-to-1 underdog.
The line of thinking that goes into those odds seems a bit skewed toward the dominance that Georges St. Pierre has put on display in the Octagon over the past three years, and it's hard not to agree with that logic. St. Pierre has defeated Dan Hardy, Thiago Alves, Matt Hughes, Matt Serra, B.J. Penn, and Josh Koscheck since UFC 69 in April of 2007, and he's done so in impressive fashion. While St. Pierre has defeated the who's who of his division, Koscheck has slowly gained popularity, not because of his strength of competition, but his more exciting style since losing to St. Pierre at UFC 74.
While popularity versus skill normally ends badly for the fighter who's been pushed to the top by antics other than performing well in the Octagon against solid competition, Koscheck is a top flight NCAA Division I wrestler who has burst back onto the scene with knockout power. He's by no means a 4-to-1 underdog.
Koscheck's wrestling, at least in this rematch, should be much more effective. As Jon Fitch alluded to in a few recent interviews, Koscheck apparently didn't take St. Pierre's wrestling seriously in their first match-up. He's also added knockout power to his stand-up game, something that became more prominent after his first loss to St. Pierre.
Can Koscheck legitimately threaten St. Pierre's reign at the top of the division? I think he can, but the safe bet in this match-up is Georges St. Pierre. His skill-set should give him the advantage in all areas of this showdown, but Koscheck has the all-mighty "unpredictability" factor in his powerful hands. While most believe St. Pierre crushes Koscheck in this rematch, we've seen a similar style match-up on the feet in the past that ended in Georges St. Pierre being upset.
In the predictions post, I went with Josh Koscheck, and I'm still rooting for him to pull off the upset. The safe, objective pick here is Georges St. Pierre. And in a five round fight, he's definitely the pick if you feel this fight will go the full twenty-five minutes. He should be able to wear down Koscheck and out point him in this fight, but I'm banking on Koscheck's heavy hands to do most of the talking tonight.
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Koz has power but no chin.
I’ll bet the left and right testicles here on GSP. Im saying via TKO round 2. Gonna take more than a lucky punch to beat the P4P best fighter in the world.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Dec 11, 2010 10:57 AM EST via mobile reply actions
What makes you think Koscheck has no chin? The well timed uppercut-hook combination from Paulo Thiago? That’s his only loss by stoppage and indicates nothing save him being sloppy. Don’t jump to the conclusion of him having no chin unless he’s been stopped repeatedly in similar fashion.
That’s hilarious logic since Kos has been dropped numerous times by numerous fighters with single shots. GSP never has. Serra only knocked him down after several shots to the chin after the original shot to the back of the head.
I know being wrong is something you’re used to, but this claim of yours isn’t just more GSP hating, its patently false.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 11:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Are you my shadow?
I find it funny that you have to refute my opinion every single time regarding GSP. My opinion won’t change the fact that they’re going to fight tonight. My being “wrong” won’t change the result of the fight either. So it’s truly hilarious that you try to tell me my opinion is wrong. By the way, if you read between the lines, I was being sarcastic regarding both GSP and Kos’ weak chin. They both have a good chin. Any good punch or kick right on the button by anyone with power will knock a fighter out regardless of good chin or not. The ability to recover from a punch is the difference.
I hope you have a friend or a counselor nearby in case GSP happens to lose tonight. I’d hate to see something bad happen to you.
by cyph on Dec 11, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn’t refuting your opinion, I was pointing out factual errors. There’s a difference. I realize you’re still sensitive on being wrong every time in discussions with me, but that’s not my problem.
I appreciate your attempt to backtrack on you glass chin statement, though. Maybe there is hope for you.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 12:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
BTW, personal differences aside, I agree that both guys have fine chins. I’m looking for a very good fight.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 12:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t see how that was hating. He was just saying if Kos’ chin is bad, GSP’s chin shouldn’t be good either. A knockdown is not really the proof of a glass jaw IMO. If you manage to survive shots from good strikers (Alves) I consider a guy’s chin good.
Sarcasm or not, however you want to rate the chin on Kos, GSP has shown to have a superior one. No offense intended to anyone.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 12:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You're right...
I forgot how Thaigo has such great KO power. I mean he is practically the Mike Tyson of mma with his 2 career KO victories. Koz has been dropped more than that. You don’t have to always go out cold to have a weak chin. I think Koz is a good fighter but, not good enough to beat a great fighter.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Dec 11, 2010 12:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That’s not what I was alluding to, you know that. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no Koscheck fan, I’m just trying to look at this objectively. Getting stopped or stunned by the power punchers of the division is nothing to scoff at. Alves, Johnson, Daley… Koscheck really is a tough guywhethere you like him or hate him. Anybody can get knocked out when hit with a good shot on the button and with the right amount of power
Koscheck recovered quickly from that combination from Thiago
He has a hell of a chin if you ask me
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."
by fr8nk the tank on Dec 11, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
i know this may sound lame but...
im not 100% certain on who takes this match. instead i just wanna see a really good fight!
It doesn't matter if Kos took GSP's wrestling seriously the first time.
By the time someone has finished competing in the NCAAs, he has drilled his moves 100s of thousands of times. He’s wrestled thousands of hours. If he gets in a fight with St. Pierre and starts losing the grappling game, it’s not like he shouldn’t be able to just make the adjustment right there on the spot. If he lost in the grappling department in the last fight, it’s not because he didn’t train enough in wrestling prior to the fight. It’s because GSP is the superior wrestler. Admittedly, that’s a tough pill for us wrestlers to swallow — that a guy with no high school or college wrestling experience is a better wrestler than someone who finished 2nd in State in High School (Pennsylvania, no less — a great HS wrestling state) and who was a collegiate national champion — but it is simply the case here. GSP, somehow, is a wrestling prodigy. God knows what he could have done if he had competed in his youth.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
I think
to add a little to your point, MMA wrestling, and actually wrestling are two very different things, GSP is a master at setting up shots. something you don’t train for in your thousands of hours at high school and college. GSP throws punches and kicks, faints and fades, all to set up the shot, for ever keeping you thinking, whats coming next, am I gonna eat a jab, or is he going for a single. Not something you can train for. I’m not a huge fan of Kos, but no one can take away his wrestling past, but it’s just not the same. Add to the fact that GSP is training with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team (insert your Canadian joke here) and it’s almost the perfect storm, or at least has been for the last three years.
Say What?
You drill for hours on setting up shots in high school and college wrestling. You rotate, change direction and level, feint, shuck the head, drag arms, lock up… I mean, I can’t believe you wrote that.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
whats so hard
to believe? do you throw punches and kicks in high school and college wrestling? the answer is NO, I don’t care what level of wrestler you are before going into MMA, at the level that these guys are fighting at, it’s a whole different game. There are things you most certainly can’t train for in wrestling, and everything I said above is just that.
I think what he meant was
MMA Wrestling is so different than college wrestling, in large part because of the striking and feigned striking used to set up moves and punish certain positions. Guys that GSP would dominate in an MMA fight (Kos, Askren, Hendricks, Rosholt) might look a lot different if done under folkstyle rules.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
thats
exactly what I’m saying, I just don’t understand how IKilled007 got a different impression at all, I included kicking and punches in my previous statement, so….
Right,
that’s how I took what you said to mean, but once people get an idea in their heads, sometimes…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I always agreed with this point, but never having wrestled, I didn’t want to speculate. It has to be muscle memory right?
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
i disagree
If you wanna stay sharp you have to drill and spar. To believe otherwise is silly. Kos will always be good with no practice but to be his best and improve he will need to practice.
That goes for anyone.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 12:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
it’s more about implementation than practice, in a standing wrestling match I’m sure Ben Askren would beat GSP, probably kos too, but in a MMA fight they are probably thinking more about avoiding getting punched in the face or kicked in the leg, so it depreciates their skillset, to be the best wrestler in MMA means you have the strategy of being of an offensive mindset and letting your opponent think about what you are going to do next, instead of what they are going to do next and in that, you can implement your wrestling to its fullest potential while they think about where you are going to hit them next.
I strongly disagree
When you are talking truly elite vs elite in any athletic competition, the difference between winning and losing is tiny. Look at what happens in almost any sport with a guy coming back from missing time, whether due to injury or suspension, and they at least get the benefit of full practice/prep time in most cases.
As if Kos hadn’t already learned that once, then he tried taking Alves on 2 weeks notice…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
''As if Kos hadn’t already learned that once, then he tried taking Alves on 2 weeks notice''
he didnt try to take him on. He did take him on. Did that prove Kos was dumb??? Maybe?
I think it proved he was a Fuckin Tough Guy.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
I don't disagree at all about that
Merely that he should have known that taking a tough guy on short notice would end up far more difficult than it should have.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
Every athlete will get rusty without practice or competition
Just because you’ve practiced something for years in the past doesn’t mean your skills won’t deteriorate over time if you don’t keep them sharp. At the highest levels, one year away from top competition might be enough to ruin a career. Kos hadn’t wrestled the nation’s best in 10 years. Now he’s got some of the top wrestlers in America working out with him everyday.
In an actual wrestling match, GSP probably wouldn’t stand a chance against Kos. MMA is completely different. Just as others have pointed out, GSP’s wrestling is based on striking.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
It's not like he wasn't grappling at all prior to the fight.
He obviously was still rolling around on the mats. Period. He was in great shape. You don’t just lose your ability to shoot for a takedown or to sprawl simply because you don’t drill it all day every day anymore.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
Wrestling and BJJ are night and day.
They are not even similar.
For one, wrestlers never lay on their backs. Two, in BJJ TD’s are way less important; there’s no slamming allowed. BJJ mainly takes place on the ground. In wrestling a match can end as soon as one person touches his shoulders to the mat.
The really important part that you’re overlooking is how small the difference between and good and a great athlete really is. It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve practiced something, if you don’t continue competing against top level athletes your skills and abilities will diminish.
If Kobe played in Italy for 3 years, he would suck for a while when he came back. He would get used to the shitty competition and adjust his game accordingly.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I just can’t bring myself to care about this one. Just feel it’s a foregone conclusion.
Naturally come tomorrow morning if I wake up to find “Koscheck demolishes GSP” I shall kick myself, but meh I just don’t see it being anything other than a routine GSP win.
by Superstitiousmma on Dec 11, 2010 11:20 AM EST reply actions
the alves/doomsday fight has KO written all over it
and struve always comes out looking like he survived a plane crash
should be a good night imo
by sittingbull on Dec 11, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
The card is reasonably solid, but I just don’t care for the main event and ultimately it’s the excitement of watching the big fights live that tends to be the deciding factor in staying up to watch a card (uk here so it doesn’t start till 3am etc)
by Superstitiousmma on Dec 11, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
The line on this is gross
If I were a betting man, I would pick Kos just for the ridiculous line.
This is the AKA camp. Kos is defending take downs against the likes of Cain Valasquez. I would not give GSP the advantage in take-downs, if anything it’s a wash.
GSP is a smart fighter, and he should have the advantage. But the + line on Kos right now is grossly out of place.
I agree the line is a bit skewed
And even though Kos brought the best pure wrestler in MMA in to train (Askren), GSP has the best takedowns in all of MMA. He will soften Kos up on the feet, then start taking him down.
Having said that, Kos still has a better shot at winning than any other UFC WW.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
The only guys Kos has beat in the stand-up in the last 2 years are Trigg and Yoshida. He lost the stand-up to Alves ( badly) and Paul. He didn’t strike with Daley.
GSP did more than fine in the stand-up with Penn and Alves, who are both more powerful and technical than Kos.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 12:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I am unsure if it is marketing, or selective memory
but I am surprised how many people have been convinced by the UFC and Josh Koscheck that the latter has a more than a puncher’s chance in this fight. I am most surprised that you are somewhat swayed Leland, as your analyses are generally on-point.
The crux of this match-up is wrestling, and for all AKA’s collective blathering about Kos’ renewed interest in it, I am supremely unconvinced: as I said elsewhere, he was 50% for take-downs against both Daley and Johnson, and he was quite obviously refocused on wrestling for the Brit at the very least. That obviously does not bode well for Koscheck whatsoever, particularly considering that neither of those fighters possess near the TD defense of GSP.
So, to buy the kit and caboodle about Koscheck’s wrestling challenging GSP’s, we would have to believe the following: in seven months, Josh Koscheck has improved from being a wrestler with a 50% success rate against fighters with average TD defense, to being capable of both stuffing and taking down (one of) the best wrestlers in MMA.In order to bring clarity to the match-up, repeat that line until it sinks in.
As for the striking, Koscheck’s hands are only ‘unpredictable’ in the sense that one can never predict whether he will connect or not – given that he is 1/3 as accurate as his opponent, and gets hit twice as often. Objectively speaking, this match-up truly is not going to be a hotly contested one.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 12:58 PM EST reply actions
Where exactly am I swayed? The analysis is that St. Pierre is probably better in all areas, and for the most part — I think that is true. I only pick Koscheck because I personally like him as a fighter. Sure, he can be a giant moron when it comes to calling out male nurses, but I think his simplistic methodology to the fight game is attractive. He doesn’t seem to over think things.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 11, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but
for whatever reasons (probably since he essentially abandoned his wrestling for a time) he is about as far from seemless in his transitions from striking to wrestling as one can get.
I agree he is the most dangerous WW for GSP, but I can’t give him with his rudimentary striking any more than a puncher’s chance.
SIDE NOTE: Are you aware of any video of Kos training with Askren? I suspect Askren is emboldened after that, and is probably considering the best way to get to the UFC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Picking a guy who is worse in every area just because he’s also not as smart or innovative is an interesting choice. Anything can happen, though.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 4:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Leland, the section below is what i am referring to:
Can Koscheck legitimately threaten St. Pierre’s reign at the top of the division? I think he can, but the safe bet in this match-up is Georges St. Pierre. His skill-set should give him the advantage in all areas of this showdown, but Koscheck has the all-mighty “unpredictability” factor in his powerful hands. While most believe St. Pierre crushes Koscheck in this rematch, we’ve seen a similar style match-up on the feet in the past that ended in Georges St. Pierre being upset.
In addition to allusions to Koscheck’s improved wrestling, I am under the impression you feel he poses enough of a threat grappling to allow his right hand to come into play – and that is where I disagree most vehemently. Koscheck, as odd as it sounds, is vastly overrated as a wrestler, and his statistics attest to that. He will be unable to stifle GSP’s wrestling, I think, which leaves us at his hands.
In that sense, I think he has little chance, if any, to upset St. Pierre. I have said elsewhere that, in addition to his pawing left, looking down while he strikes, leaping into that right hand, and other indicators of poor striking technique, Koscheck’s leg kicks are sloppy and he is seemingly unable to check one. There is a big opportunity there for GSP to land the left-jab outside leg-kick combo he throws so well, which can serve a few purposes: a) leave Kos more susceptible to leg kick feints, allowing GSP to land superman punches, hard shots to the face (ala Kid Nate’s Judo Chop with GSP/St. Pierre) or b) leave Kos open to TDs and put him off balance should he decide to defend against GSP’s takedowns.
I look for GSP to effectively use kicks in this match-up, which is something most are not speaking about. While Kos has undeniably developed his boxing, he is ineffective with kicks (other than the Hazelette kick), both in terms of offense and defense. That is a gaping hole in his striking offense, giving GSP to exploit him in several ways.
I personally think the bout is going to be less competitive than the horror show of Fat Kid v Chocolate Ice Cream Cone II.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
The amount of typos here is epic.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
In addition to allusions to Koscheck’s improved wrestling, I am under the impression you feel he poses enough of a threat grappling to allow his right hand to come into play – and that is where I disagree most vehemently. Koscheck, as odd as it sounds, is vastly overrated as a wrestler, and his statistics attest to that. He will be unable to stifle GSP’s wrestling, I think, which leaves us at his hands.
Allusions to Koscheck’s improved wrestling? There are no allusions at all. Koscheck didn’t train one minute of wrestling according to Fitch when he fought St. Pierre, so any training in that department is an improvement.
And I can’t read the rest because I’m on zero sleep.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Dec 11, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree. Let me explain.
Given that Fitch, Velasquez, Javier Mendez, Bob Cook, Dave Camarillo, anybody associated with AKA, and Josh Koscheck himself have said as much, we can safely say he began training wrestling again far before this fight. Evidence of this can be found in both his most recent fights against Johnson and Daley, as well as attempts against Alves, etc.
To be fair to Koscheck, I’ll focus only on the two most recent fights. Guess what Koscheck’s wrestling success was in those bouts? 50%. He was 2-for-4 against Johnson, and 3-for-6 against Paul Daley, and as I said, these are great fighters but do not offer the same TD defense that Georges St. Pierre does. If 50% success rate is the result of his new training regimen, I would hardly call that improvement.
So, I stand by the statement: your focus on his training is, at best, an allusion to an improved MMA wrestling game that does not bare out. He will be soundly outwrestled tonight.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Kos has great wrestling but it doesn’t translate to MMA against a beast like GSP. GSP can phase shift, Kos cannot — Kos is either striking with his eyes looking at the mat or shooting in — he is one dimensional that way. Kos is a wrestler with heavy hands, and his wrestling is useless against GSP, we know that. So the wrestler is going to want to keep this standing — and really, does he?
I think Serra, BJ, Alves, Hardy are all superior strikers to Kos — sure he has heavy hands but I think the aforementioned hit as hard if not harder and more technically than the fuzzy haired mouthpiece.
GSP does everything better — including striking, Kos needs to land some heavy hands to win, if he doesn’t its going to be a long (or short) night for him.
As a Canadian, and a GSP fan, I will admit I am nervous though — Kos does have one tool to finish GSP. No dismissing that.
Curious to see how it shakes out.
Half the year in Canada, Half the year in Thailand.
the x factor here is....
Can Josh nullify gsps wrestling? I think he has the best chance to do That out of everyone in his last 5 fights.
Now does Josh punch harder than gsp? Yes.
Will gsp be able to out strike him in this fight ?yes, I think so.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 1:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
1. I think we know Josh can’t stop GSP’s TD’s — no one at 170 can, if BJ can’t no one can.
2. He punches harder but with terrible accuracy and his chin out there.
3. Yes, and from all angles.
Josh wins this if he catches GSP standing — aside from that he is fucked.
Half the year in Canada, Half the year in Thailand.
BJ, like Machida, has very unorthadox, yet effective TDD, but it is not wrestling-based like Kos’ is. Kos will likely stop more of GSP’s takedowns than anyone ever has, but I think he will still be above 50% in TD success rate.
Kos’ penchant for closing his eyes and/or looking down with his head will be his undoing. If GSP wasn’t significantly faster than Kos, I would give Kos a decent puncher’s chance, but I think both BJ and Alves hit harder, possibly excepting that wind-up-to-the-butt haymaker Kos throws, but there is no way that connects
Kos’ best chance at winning – via acting-based DQ.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I actually thought that Penn had the best shot to nullify the TD of GSP, as well as have even better stand-up than Kos. Alves also looked to be a tough match on paper. But Penn is the gold standard for tough matchups, imo.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Penn is the toughest
But I thought gsp would take him down. I also thought Penn would sub him when he did. I was only right about one of those things.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 1:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Do you think Kos could beat Penn in either a 3 or 5 round WW fight? I think it would be very difficult for him.
by Hardcharger on Dec 11, 2010 2:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
honestly, penn would ko him or sub him inside of 3 IMHO
But I am a hopeless Bj nut hugger.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 2:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have my
doubts that being a nut hugger has much to do with your train of thought, I’m not much of a fan of BJ, but I think your right, Kos would make the mistake of either trusting his new found striking and stand and bang with BJ, which I’m sure all agree wouldn’t end well for Kos, or, he’ll use his wrestling to put Penn on his back where he’d be far more dangerous. Basically what I’m saying is that you’re not the only one that thinks that, and Kos would be choosing where he loses that fight.
idk...
As great as BJ’s BJJ was back in day, I can’t recall him ever submitting anyone off his back in MMA.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
who said off his back?
sweep , mount , back transitions or guard.
I didnt say how he would sub him. Just that he would. But since you brought it up. I think he would go to his back and choke him or armbar him.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
I just assumed that since you said when he was taken down
Since its not like he is going to sweep or reverse GSP.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Dec 11, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
and Btw his BJJ is still great. He still trains with Camerrillo and other greats.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Heres a question I want answered
If Kos is this supremely talented wrestler, with a new found striking game, can he string it together to be as effective as GSP? I think most would agree that he can’t do both at the same time, like GSP. So with that being said, why wouldn’t Koscheck do the one thing that would at the very least increase his odds against a man who is very quickly becoming the most dominant champion since Hughes? If Koscheck was as serious as he is tying to make everyone believe, why didn’t he go to the one person on the planet that could have put together a plan, and implement a training program, that would give him at least one more tool then "the punchers chance. Matt Hughes, yeah I said it, Matt Hughes has had more success then Koscheck could have wet dreams over, and possibly the only person that understands better the Greg Jackson how to set up a game plan to take down GSP, again, beyond the punchers chance. In this day and age, it is becoming increasingly important to train with the very best in the world, regardless of where you’re based out of. AKA has only one champion, and lets be honest, it wasn’t that impressive of a feat. Koscheck should be training anywhere and everywhere possible. If he is actually serious about this. Look at GSP, kick boxers from France, Olympic wrestling team in Canada, Jackson in the states, and correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t he do some training with Anderson Silva? Koscheck says he wants to be the best, but if you only train with the same people time and time again, how good can you truly become? I’m sorry this was so long, but thanks for reading it.
That is just it though,
Josh is most likely unable to nullify GSP’s wrestling. As I said above, Josh Koscheck went 2-for-4 against Paul Daley, and in the scant months since then he has improved enough to nullify (one of) the best wrestler(s) in the sport?
As the British would say, “Ain’t ’appenin, ’bruv.”
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 1:26 PM EST reply actions
This was supposed to be a reply to the-gentle-way.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
just so we are clear.
I am putting no money on the fraggle.
"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Dec 11, 2010 1:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Definitely.
I see that you are just confident that Koscheck will make the bout competitive. I am just of the opposite camp, and cannot bring myself around to seeing anything else other than a TKO or 50-45/44 decision.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 2:02 PM EST reply actions
No one wants to see the rest of the card
I’ve 3 friends from work that we go in with and split every UFC card, and none of us want to buy this one. Other than seeing GSP v KOS, there is nothing else on this fight that we want to pay to see.
Totally disagree.
Alves vs Howard will be lightning, Miller vs Oliveira is a phenomenal match-up with divisional relevancy, and Danzig vs Stevenson should have some nice grappling acumen on display.
If you are judging the fight on name value alone, which you may be, then I can see your point. But in terms of competitiveness and excitement, the card is just fine on paper.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well
There’s always the Hello Kitty’s Island Adventure video game for you and your friends if you’re bored tonight.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
Nice.
Haha.
Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one, if you can't lend your hand - for the times they are a changin'. - Bob Dylan
by Jonathan Snowed In on Dec 11, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
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