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CSAC to Deal With Chael Sonnen and Josh Barnett Tomorrow

Photo by Jon Kopaloff/Zuffa LLC/Zuffa LLC via Getty Images

The California State Athletic Commission will deal with Josh Barnett's request to reinstate his MMA license and Chael Sonnen's appeal of his suspension tomorrow before lunch according to this PDF. Barnett was refused a license in California when he failed a drug test in August 2009 ten days before his scheduled bout with Fedor Emelianenko at Affliction: Trilogy. Sonnen tested positive for elevated levels of testosterone after his middleweight title fight at UFC 117. 

MMA Fighting has some new info regarding Sonnen's case:

According to the documents, on Aug. 6 -- the day of his drug test -- Sonnen admitted to event supervisor Frank Munoz that he had taken testosterone as recently as the day before. In fact, Sonnen listed the substance on a section of the urine sample form in which the party to be tested is asked to divulge any medications or substances he has taken in recent days, including vitamins or minerals.

On the forms, the 33-year-old Sonnen listed "1 shot" of testosterone, which he stated he took on Aug. 5, just two days before his title match with Silva.

...
On Sept. 2, the lab informed the CSAC that Sonnen's testosterone to epitestosterone ratio (T/E) tested at 16.9. Though testosterone is naturally occurring in the human body, that number is well above the T/E threshold ratio of 4.0. A follow-up carbon isotope analysis was conducted on Sept. 7, with the finding that the test results were consistent with the administration of a steroid. The lab subsequently sent the CSAC 66 pages of documentation with the intent of scientifically supporting their findings, establishing chain of custody of the specimen and proving the sample's integrity was maintained throughout the process.

Zach Arnold comments:

Who knows how the political winds have changed in California and whether or not this will be a forgiving appeals panel to one Chael Sonnen. What I do know is this - after Thursday's hearing, we may find out some new angles to usage of PEDs in MMA. A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned publicly that I thought it was curious that all of a sudden we are starting to hear reports about fighters allegedly using TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy). TRT is not exactly something that you associate with healthy guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. Yes, I realize that 2010 became the year that lots of potions and infomercials for "Low T" (testosterone) got pitched to the public to buy the latest and greatest invention to give your sex life a boost and make you more active again like you used to be. However, we're talking about MMA fighters here who are viewed by many fans as tremendous athletes. (More on a TRT defense here.)

Hormonal replacement therapy and TRT can, in some instances, be credibly explained. In other cases, the usage of such methods should raise a lot of red flags. If guys are hurting their bodies allegedly through bad weight cutting procedures or through the usage of PEDs, then it's hard to say with a straight face that this is somehow a safe sport. After all, what is the purpose of TRT? It's used when someone has a damaged endocrine system and has to synthetically boost their testosterone levels in their bodies. For most sports fans, this is not a topic you think much about. For pro-wrestling fans who have witnessed many public scandals involving online pharmacies and mark doctors, TRT is not a new revelation.

Cage Side Seats broke the news that Sonnen hadn't notified the Nevada State Athletic Commission of any therapeutic use of TRT before his fight against Yushin Okami in February 2010 a few weeks back. That news blew a major hole in Sonnen's expected claims that he'd been on TRT for several fights preceding UFC 117 and therefore thought he could simply put "testosterone" on a form for substances he'd taken prior to the fight and be fine. 

Sonnen has hired Howard Jacobs, the lawyer who represented Sean Sherk and Antonio Silva before the CSAC a few years back. We'll see if they succeed in shaving any time off Sonnen's suspension.

As for Barnett I have no idea if this will be a routine hearing to reinstate his license or if some public belly-crawling will be expected of the notorious heavyweight. He has signed a new contract with Strikeforce and presumably will fight for that promotion in 2011 if all goes well at the hearing. 

UPDATE: S.C. Michaelson has a look at the details of the CSAC paperwork dump. It's a must read. 

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Chael is innocent!

He is Republican, how can he do any wrong?

by GirlsBeatMeUp on Dec 1, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

don’t bring your troll bs here. We work hard to avoid this place sounding like the CNN comments section.

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Dec 1, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i dunno, i’m angry. grrrrr.

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Dec 1, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone’s got no sense of humor (but if you were joking with your statements I’m guessing I’m referring to myself)

by nevergoasstomouth on Dec 1, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I think its more than it wasn’t funny or clever or original than it being a joke – basically if you can imagine Jay Leno saying it to get a laugh out of people who remembered when Steve Allen hosted the tonight show – probably not gonna do well here

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Dec 1, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Amadeus, I’m sorry. What exactly do you work at to prevent trolls? Do you put in long hours on BE to monitor what goes on?

Chillax good buddy. I’m a BE newbie transplanted from another site and I find BE ten times better. I was just testing my trolling boundaries. Now I know where I stand and I will be much more cautious.

By the way, Cowherd has got to be the most annoying person on the face of the planet. We can agree on that.

by GirlsBeatMeUp on Dec 1, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Everybody is innocent in the eyes of god

I mean it’s not like he didn’t kill anybody or anything, right? And we need a DNA test to see if it was the Spanish Sonnen who failed the test.

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by SheepleBuster on Dec 1, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Depends

Did he get that testosterone…. the gay way?!?

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not even touching that

There has got to be a natural way to boost testosterone though.

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers

by SheepleBuster on Dec 1, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I hear horse meat helps too. No?

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers

by SheepleBuster on Dec 1, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I have no idea.

That blows the TRT thing out of the water. No sane doctor would prescribe at those levels.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

What was his total testosterone level? Doctors don’t prescribe a ratio. I’d like to know more details on the test results.

by Hardcharger on Dec 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Not sure if they'll release that.

But the best information we have says that while taking TRT under a doctor’s care, Hendo tests under the normal levels and within the expected ratio.

Do we have any evidence that or even statements from Chael that he was prescribed testosterone? I’ve only heard rumors and hearsay from people “close to his camp.”

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

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by DJ Pullout on Dec 1, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

That is not true. Men everywhere are prescribed test by their doctor if their levels are below normal or even on the low level of normal. And the range for normal is large, so people on prescribed test can have levels on the uppermost end of the range. I was just curious as to what his level was, as it’s certainly relevant.

by Hardcharger on Dec 1, 2010 2:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

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by DJ Pullout on Dec 1, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Haven't you heard?

You can’t tell if somebody uses steroids by looking at them.

It’s what I hear around here anyway…

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you cant tell if they arent on steroidhs by looks....BUT

Looks are one indication of use of steroids, but not definitive proof by any means.
There’s a reason body builders take them. They make your muscles larger. Which you can kinda notice. I always hate when people act like looks mean nothing in that reguard as well.

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by the-gentle-way on Dec 1, 2010 5:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The version I'd heard was

Faster recovery time so that they could more often work out.

As for pro wrestling, enhancement and appearance… the infamous “buyers’ list” that came out after the Chris Benoit incident (and hilariously included the syncophant Ken Kennedy/Anderson) also included Sho Funaki and William Regal, neither who looks like a stereotypical abuser.

by Chortles on Dec 1, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

It's true that a guy with a lousy build can be on Vitamin S.

But it’s hard to believe that some physiques are natural in any sense.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, it is "natural" only

in the sense that it is not AAS or hGH enhanced.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

There are certain signs for sure

But it is only in the most extreme cases (i.e. Mr. Olympia competitors) can it be completely discerned from pictures…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Im a Matt Hughes fan...

His fight with Carlos Newton was a few years back…when testing was a little more lax…But, he did have the same Backne that Chael displayed at weighins…Rewatch the Hughes/Newton fight…You can see it when Hughes is in Newtons guard…

by cardiackids on Dec 2, 2010 3:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Backne can certainly be a side effect, although it also occurs unrelated to AAS use.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

He took a shot the day before (according to the documents)

which opens a whole nother can of worms

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

mmm, canned worms......

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by Chris Hall on Dec 1, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Which is already kind of fishy.

Unless he had the levels you so aptly described above, it’s more likely that he’d be taking androgens by pill, patch or tablet. Injections? DAMN.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Injections would be the preferred and most appropriate method for many guys on TRT, especially guys doing extensive amounts of grappling (no transfer like with gels).

by Hardcharger on Dec 1, 2010 2:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

You think? Why not a pill?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That's just not the way its done

Its gel, occasionally patch, very seldom implanted pellets or injections…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea,

a friend of mine was dating a guy who had to put gel on his chest every morning.

by Sqwibbs on Dec 1, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Nandrolone is and has been available as a pill for a long time.

Other androgens as well.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

But those aren’t prescribed in the US as TRT.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

aren’t typically

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Injections are more efficient and would keep the levels more stable. Doctors only prescribe injections or the gel.

by Hardcharger on Dec 1, 2010 3:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What am I missing?

Just because he disclosed that he took a shot the day before it makes him less guilty? I don’t get it. DId he fail the test or not? What’s to appeal?

by Daveyboy on Dec 1, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

People are suggesting

…but not anybody here… that if he disclosed it on the form, he must have thought it was okay. And if he thought it was okay, it must be because he had assurances from the CSAC that it was okay. And if he had assurances from the CSAC and they still suspended him then the problem is that they’re corrupt or incompetent or both, and Chael is just another poor sufferer – like that little lamb Nick Diaz who needs his pot for – and I’m trying to type this with a straight face – ADHD.

But of course, that’s all CRAZY.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That has nothing to do with it

If you have very low natural levels of testosterone, and therefore by definition similarly low levels of epitestosterone (produced at approximately a 1:1 ratio with natural testosterone), then the ratio would be greatly skewed by an injection.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

Because the doctor wouldn’t be treating you based on on your actual levels. They’d just find the biggest syringe they could…

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Reply fail perhaps?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, you do keep replying....

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Your reply didn't make any sense to me

given my comment, so I thought perhaps it was intended for another…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

He's saying...

that a prescription would be to bring you back up to natural levels, not to put you an incredible amount above.

Just like someone who has a legitimate prescription for something like valium would not be expected to show enormous levels of it in their system.

It’s more than being prescribed something, it’s using it in acceptable levels.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 1, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Except that test doesn’t check for levels, it only compares the ratio of natural test to synth test in your system via the test:epi-test ratio.

Only a blood test can determine the absolute level at any given time.

Someone could have testosterone levels almost 4x the upper limit of the “normal” range and, if their natural level was already at the upper limit (prior to supplimenting), still pass the test:epi-test ratio of 4:1…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Right...

but…

A follow-up carbon isotope analysis was conducted on Sept. 7, with the finding that the test results were consistent with the administration of a steroid.

Changes that quite a bit.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 1, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

That sentence doesn’t tell is anything. TRT with injections of testosterone would be administering yourself a steroid. TRT just isn’t intended to raise your test levels to supra- physiological levels. Again the ratio alone doesn’t give the full picture here.

by Hardcharger on Dec 1, 2010 3:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

That says nothing except that it was unnatural

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

“Isn’t obvious? Mr. Anderson Silva and or his representatives or persons of association put these drugs in my meals!”

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Anderson laid on the ground for 4 1/2 rounds trying to inject something into Chael :D

by nevergoasstomouth on Dec 1, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably.

I mean, I don’t usually break it up into rounds, but I have had to retire to a stool at one point.

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by James Brady on Dec 1, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

what i dont get is why he would deliberately take a testosterone shot two days before his scheduled test??? If he were trying to cheat thats about the dumbest thing you could do.

by frosnt1 on Dec 1, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

That is my question as well

Unless he is on a legit program, for legit reasons, in which case I’m sure he thought it wouldn’t have mattered…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

What on earth can he possibly say to defend a 16.9 T/E ratio?

 It wasn’t him, it was some mexican guy who sounds like him.

by who me on Dec 1, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

It must have been some Mexican...

Yeah...protect you thumb...it's the only thing that differentiates you from the monkey...

by dancingChicken on Dec 1, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

“I’m taking supplemental testosterone…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, you’re not allowed to take as much as you want. If you’re on TRT it is to bring you to a normal level. There are methods that are taken to ensure that you’re not suddenly at an incredibly high level.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 1, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Completely agree

But the test:epi-test ratio has nothing to do with that.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

If I’m understanding the way TRT works correctly, he wouldn’t even get popped on a test if he was actually on a TRT regiment right?

by Sqwibbs on Dec 1, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It would still likely show up on the

test:epi-test ratio, because the initial level would have to be very low to have a medical need in the first place.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing and he already was caught is a lie about the whole thing. See ya next year Chael.

by memitim on Dec 1, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I personally feel as if

Cheaters should not be allowed to get time shaved off. If a penalty is enforced then you deal with it. Fight this in court if you must. But if they still say you cheated then no time off. You take the penalty. It’s only fair. Dont award cheaters with a six month vacation. If I get caught at work with drugs in my system i get fired.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 1:09 PM EST reply actions  

I personally don’t feel like everything is so black and white but I would ask for more consistency when they’re handing out punishments

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

How can it not be so black and white? It’s not like there isn’t a listing of band substances and a description of testing methods out there. Ignorance is not an excuse.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

that list is heavily politicized your gonna tell me Nick Diaz smoking weed is the same as Chael Sonnen popping for obscene levels of testosterone? i agree ignorance is not an excuse but athletic commissions need to continue to look at everything by a case by case basis and quit reducing someone’s sentence on the grounds that they payed a lawyer to fight the case.

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s exactly what my original post said.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

oh it sounded so extreme though like, “They’ve popped they’ve brought shame on themselves and their family sentence them to exile on the same island they sent Napolean to.”

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

lol nah

I was basically saying if you get caught do the full year and stop giving reductions.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

well said that really irked me that Hermes Franca served out the full sentence and Sherk got his reduced

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah it wasn’t right. Hermes admitted his wrong doing and didnt want a reduction. He was a man about it. Sherk cried until he got his way. Sherk is a great fighter but he made a mistake and shoulda took it on the chin….

Karma…BJ gave it to him on the chin.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You guys have no idea what you're talking about

Sherk’s whole testing and case was fucking BOTCHED. They tested a glass of WATER positive. Get your shit straight.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 2:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

please provide proof. Thanks.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Here you go. Search for “water blank” for the fun bits

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because he left so much residue of nandrolone on the equipment from his sample...

…that it didn’t wash off for 6 months….

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

We have bigger problems if Quest Diagnostics aren’t washing their testing equipment for that long. Forget fair play and drug testing, that shit’s just nasty

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately I can’t see your link due to work site blocker. Give me a gist of what it says?

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll just quote the part I was referencing

"The Muscle Shark" responded by going through the appeals process where he asserted that the Quest Diagnostics was negligent with his samples. Citing Yves Reznik et al., The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, concentrations could be raised by as much as a four-times-multiplier without a correction for the decrease in volume dieresis. Without taking proper precautions, as Sherk had suspected, his Nandrolone levels could have been within the accepted threshold. Sherk presented stronger evidence of misconduct when, in a subsequent visit to Quest Diagnostics, a "water blank" was also shown to test positive for Nandrolone.

Emphasis is mine

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Because you're uneducated on the matter?

I’m not the one making protestations of karma striking down the unjust, Batman.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 2:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Can you say with 100% certainty that Sherk didn’t cheat? The fact that he served a fine and suspension means the powers that be think other wise. My mentions of Karma is that I saw Sean Sherk take 4 vicious knees to the Jaw from a powered up Hermes and keep coming forward….for 25 minutes. Here’s where Karma comes into play, one knee from a shrunken BJ put him on his ass and out.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

You think steroids give you a chin?

You’ve got other problems.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 2:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

nope

but a steroids effect everyones body differently. preventing or minimizing injury has been noticed on more than one occasion in sports.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I've never heard of that

not even anecdotally… I have heard of guys using to try to speed healing though…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Batman

huh?

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Dec 1, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry d00d

Called off the signal.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 3:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Dude....

Calm down…

Take a breath.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I WILL NOT

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 2:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Would you like some hot cocoa?

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe a spot of tea

Or a bucket of cold water.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 3:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Crap, we're out of water.

We have all of these buckets of excuses for Chael… no water.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s also worth noting that the incoming head of the CSAC after Armando Garcia (Under whom Sherk, Franca and I believe Bigfoot Silva tested positive) suspended all drug testing pending a revamp of the drug testing system

I’m not saying these guys are hard-and-fast no argument innocent (Franca in particular admitted to his usage), but I also don’t think you can say Sherk or Bigfoot Silva are hard-and-fast no argument guilty, either.

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I can.

It’s not that hard. I just said it five times fast. “Sherk or Bigfoot Silva are hard-and-fast no argument guilty” has nothing on “the sixth sheik’s sixth sheep’s sick.”

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm here.

For you.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with you. Blackout acts like I’m attacking him lol. My opinion is Sherk Cheated. Whether he did it intentionally or not, he was stripped of his belt, suspended, and came back a different fighter.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

A different fighter that got injured in a really bizarre and convenient way when he was scheduled for a random drug test.

Which isn’t what most people mean whey they say that… I don’t think.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Right,

and let’s not forget Sherk saying that he didn’t know you could walk into GNC and buy a banned supplement, that it was just by luck he wasn’t accidentally juicing.

Like I said, I don’t think it’s hard-and-fast either way, but it’s shady enough that I lean toward Sherk not having juiced in this specific instance.

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

He got a giant fucking cut across his forehead

that made him pull out of the fight. Did he blade himself to avoid a test?

Also, a 35-37 year old with significant ring rust losing to the most elite fighters in his division isn’t so bad. And certainly explains the “different fighter” thing in a less speculative sense.

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by pdl on Dec 1, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Unbelievable

Face it: people made their minds up about him before seeing it all unfold.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 3:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It's true

People are being irrational.

There’s no reason that anyone ever had to think Sherk might have been guilty.

I’m just gonna leave this over here….

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Utterly meaningless

if you are trying to imply anything steroid-related from that pic.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I dunno...

He’s pretty humorless if you look at the rest of the thread.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Is that smoke?

I wonder what’s causing it.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel like the same could be said about you

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking about the tear he got that prevented him from attending a random drug screen, not the cut.

It’s the series of problems that looks suspicious, not any one.

And combined by his – can we all agree on this term? – FREAKISH PHYSIQUE, it’s natural to call into question his training methods.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing freakish

about his physique…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. That's why they call him "the normally muscled fish."

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha!

Few would disagree that he has a muscular physique, but I have seen many that were more impressive naturally (i.e. non-AAS).

Don’t misunderstand, I am not saying there is no way he used as I am firmly in the camp that a significant majority of pro athletes in contact sports use or have used PEDs, its just that physiques such as Sherk’s or Duffee’s are attainable without their use.

Now, if someone who is 24+ years old and already trains regularly puts on 20+ pounds of lean mass over a few months, THAT is definitely not natural.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I think a lot of people say conflicting things.

If you’re willing to admit that far more athletes are using than some might think, how do you know that these kinds of results are possible through natural means?

And with Sherk: I don’t want to get Blackout off on a rant, but Sherk’s argument itself was enough to convince me of his guilt without worrying at all about his freakish physique, his unusually thin skin, the spots on his body that look like injection sites, or his constant backne. To whit, Sherk claimed:

  • That he didn’t do any steroids, but the testing equipment was tainted.
  • That he may have done steroids, but they were in tainted supplements
  • That none of that matters because the test was bogus anyway.

Really? So you didn’t test positive, but you did? And you didn’t take any steroids, but you did? And the lab was bad, but it correctly identified the steroids from the supplements that you didn’t take? WHAT?

This is like an old jewish folk story about a man who borrows a dish from his neighbor. One day he brings it back broken and the man questions him. He says: “It was broken when I got it, I never borrowed it, and when I brought it back it was fine.”

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Would that be considered "Goulding"?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 2, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

You bet your ass it would.

And we hate that shit.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

results like that are certainly possible naturally, but

that is not meant to imply Sherk (or Duffee) didn’t use, simply that it can’t be determined from that.

Not sure what spots you are saying look like injection sites, but AAS given deep IM are given in the glutes and (generally outer) quads, although I have seen people inject in their delts as well.

The circumstantial evidence is certainly compelling in Sherk’s case, and, given my views on the widespread usage anyway, it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he used.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and I should add:

I’m not really intending all this a commentary on the Sonnen case per se; we’re going to get all the facts tomorrow, but if Sonnen is stating he was taking a banned substance, the false positive argument holds no water. I’m getting into all this purely because I think the Sherk and Silva cases are really interesting.

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

The only real questions appear to be whether he was taking them legitimately, for a legitimate medical purpose, and whether he filed the paperwork attesting to that.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Which it's pretty clear that he didn't.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Which part?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn't file any paperwork.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Then he is screwed

If he had a legitimate medical need and was prescribed and using accordingly, that helps him somewhat in public perception, although it also speaks volumes about his intellect and professionalism IMO, unless it was somehow a legitimate oversight on his part (ie paperwork emailed but “never received” and never followed up on).

It still makes no sense why he would use it just before the fight unless he thought it was all approved, but then again much of what he does and says makes little sense to me…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t want to make any assumptions on his innocence rather I was irked by the athletic commissions conduct the guilty verdict stood so he should have been forced to serve the entire suspension.

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

This is such a narrow stance it hurts

You expect the CSAC under that regime to admit fault, opening themselves up to worse criticism than they were already receiving?

Do you people also think everyone on death row did it?

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Dec 1, 2010 3:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

hahaha are you always so extreme with your examples the fact is the guilty verdict stood and Sherk accepted it if someone was on death row and didn’t continue to appeal the decision then yes I could assume that he did it

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, considering pot is not a PED, I don’t think it should be treated the same. It’s a recreational drug that if anything is probably detrimental to both fighting and training (although I assume that Diaz doesn’t generally toke up right before practice). Yes, since it is technically illegal he shouldn’t get away completely, but it’s not the same as “cheating.” There is no benefit to it. Anything above a six month suspension for pot I would consider excessive, and honestly I don’t even think they should test for it before making sure they aren’t high while during the actual fight (for the same reasons people shouldn’t fight while drunk).

by Chromium on Dec 1, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I would think he does in fact chief right before practice.

I’ve heard that smoking weed before bjj class is like….not even fair. I haven’t done it personally (because I get so paranoid when I smoke) but I’ve heard that more than once.

by Brandon Starr on Dec 1, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

If it’s not a danger to himself or others, and doesn’t give him an athletic advantage that goes beyond the period while he’s high, I don’t think it’s big deal honestly. Interesting that weed could make you better at BJJ. I don’t smoke weed for the same reason you don’t, so I wouldn’t know.

by Chromium on Dec 2, 2010 2:48 AM EST up reply actions  

In a sport that's about enduring the pain of submissions long enough to escape them...

…pot can definitely help.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh I most definitely smoke weed. I love it.

I just can’t do it in public. I also never smoke until I am 100% certain there is nothing else I need to accomplish for that day because it’s a major motivation killer. Except mowing the lawn. I seem to enjoy mowing the lawn when I’m stoned……and weed whacking…..but yeah, I could never smoke right before bjj. It would freak me the fuck out.

by Brandon Starr on Dec 2, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to get into the giant pot debate again, but marijuana is used to treat ADHD and as a pain killer, for just two examples.

There are tons of other ADHD and pain killers on the banned list, for that reason alone, pot can be banned.

I don’t know enough of the details to make a completely informed decision, but there is actually a discussion to be had, not just, “it’s recreational, let them do it.”

by Phildo on Dec 2, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah... but there are only clinical studies on its use for a particular kind of pain relief.

It’s use for ADHD treatment is… Well, irresponsible at best and a sham at worst.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I bet.

“I get anxious when I don’t know how I can get some weed without being arrested.”

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by jemaleddin on Dec 3, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

There is nothing in the info given to draw this conclusion...
as Chael Sonnen popping for obscene levels of testosterone

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

your right, I was speaking hypothetically but that was pretty dumb considering it was in the comments section of a post about Chael Sonnen

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

"If I get caught at work with drugs in my system i get fired."

And this is why some fighters would rather fight than work for a living.

by Chortles on Dec 1, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

What is this like Barnett's 4th scheduled appearance for this?

And I’m 99% positive Sonnen is guilty

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by II SMASH II on Dec 1, 2010 1:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

the previous scheduled appearances

were to appeal the decision to not renew his license. This is a hearing regarding his application for a new license.

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by Nate Wilcox on Dec 1, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh details

I should pay attention to them

Whatever. Just ban me. You're all gay. - Josh Grant
Thisredengine and Marta Gallo happily married June 2012

by II SMASH II on Dec 1, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

This should be a lot less of a farce than Margarito’s hearing, correct? Barnett needs to be able to fight in CA if he’s going to be a Strikeforce guy. He can’t just wait out the hearing then run off to Texas.

by Tedd Welch on Dec 1, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Barnett supplied no documents

Who knows if he shows.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

does he even have to show? he’s just applying for a new license, he’s not appealing a pending ruling/suspension

by BeeTrain on Dec 1, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a license reinstatement hearing

All failed testers have to go through it

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

by going “through it,” does it mean he has to show up in person? have his attorney show for him? or can he just submit the app?

by BeeTrain on Dec 1, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I would think that a sample would be required.

by fitefan on Dec 1, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Not showing up in person is one of the things that derailed his appeal of them not granting him a license last time.

by who me on Dec 1, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

He has to go do the grovelling thing before the CSAC.

by memitim on Dec 1, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Poor guy

Oh wait, he’s a thrice-caught steroid user. Fuck that guy.

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Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

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by Derek Suboticki on Dec 1, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

HELL YES.

Also, howdy!

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Barnett Fan here...

Its been increasingly difficult to follow his career after his testing “blemishes”…hopefully he’ll get his license and he can keep fighting in the US…I’m trying to stay away from the obligatory “and of course here’s to the hope that he figures out how to cycle off in time to test celan”…but I failed!

"45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly"

by capt1911 on Dec 1, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

my spelling is also a failure

“clean”

"45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly"

by capt1911 on Dec 1, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm more shocked your a Barnett fan

the spelling didn’t even catch my eye till you mentioned it

by SeanyD on Dec 1, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

I thought Barnett had many fans here in the US…No?

"45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly"

by capt1911 on Dec 1, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

You're only allowed to disappoint your fans by getting caught cheating so many times.

Then people start to reevaluate.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I would probably feel that way about any other fighter.

But like I said, I wouldn’t have ever known about MMA before TUF if it wasn’t for that absurd little indian casino in Washington State holding a Pancrase fight featuring Barnett. I will watch every single time he fights until he retires. I do recognize that I am a rare case.

by Brandon Starr on Dec 1, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh sure.

I’ll always love BJ – I don’t care about his excuses, I don’t care about his performance on any given night. But I have the good sense to lie low and hang my head in shame when he does something dumb.

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

"I will watch every single time he fights until he retires"

I feel the same way….

"45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly"

by capt1911 on Dec 1, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree 100%

with your sig btw…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

In all fairness

a double-tap should always be used, its just much better with the .45 ACP…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a few problems with .45.

1) it’s super expensive, so most people practice less often with it. That means they are less likely to actually hit their target the first time.

2) If you don’t hit your target the first time, the recoil means it will take longer to reacquire the target for a follow up round.

3) One shot drops with pistol ammunition is not a sure thing with any caliber.

4) +P HP for .40 or 9mm is often as effective as .45 with less recoil and high capacity.

by Sqwibbs on Dec 1, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the only reason .45 is so popular is because 1911’s are such awesome guns. Even I want one, and I don’t like .45.

by Sqwibbs on Dec 1, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Several thoughts on these

There’s always 1911s in another caliber (mainly lower caliber, but I know of at one in .50 GI), and there’s other .45 pistols with a more recent design, i.e. USP variants, the HK45, the SIG P220 variants, or the FNP45 —good lord that became my favorite ever since I saw a suppressed one with a Docter mini red dot sight (MRDS) installed in place of the rear sight. Is it me, or is such a set up becoming more common?

Oh yeah, Magpul Dynamics’ position on training with handgun ammo: Bite the bullet, not (just) because of accuracy training, but because YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT THAT AMMO WILL CYCLE THROUGH THAT HANDGUN WHEN YOU NEED IT TO.

by Chortles on Dec 1, 2010 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I don’t mean to imply that the 1911 is the only cool .45, or that it doesn’t come in other calibers. However, as far as .45’s are concerned, the 1911 is the king.

1911’s in other calibers are relatively rare.

by Sqwibbs on Dec 2, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Aside from the expense part

The Glock Model 21 addresses all of the other issues. I like some of the tricked out 1911s, but I can use a 21 almost right out of the box (14 shot cap).

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

because it is a big, slow, fat cartridge, the .45 ACP has little danger of over-penetration and it lends itself well to suppressed use…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not a huge fan of the Glock Grip,

but the XD45 is another example of a .45 that resolves most of the issues with the round. Sure when compaired to a standard 1911, these guns show a great deal of improvement. However, when you compair the .45 variants to the 9mm variants (G17 or XD9) the recoil especially is still quite bad. Two 9mm JHP +P rounds are better then one .45.

Overpenetration is not something I worry too much about. If you are using JHP rounds in any caliber, and you are hitting your target, you don’t have too much to worry about. But, if you don’t get enough practice because the ammo for your gun is so expensive, and you are MISSING your target, then you have something to worry about.

by Sqwibbs on Dec 2, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

.45 ACP is definitely not for everyone, no argument there from me.

As for the 1911, for all the love they still get, while a worked over version is a great gun, using one right out of the box is…questionable…IMO

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I anxiously await subo and jemaleddin's balanced and reasonable commentary on this issue.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Dec 1, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

Like what?

That science works? That the evidence tells us that he cheated and should serve out his suspension? What else are you expecting?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Science?! Chael Sonnen does not approve oh such witch craft.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Just taking the piss, dude.

Pun intended.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Dec 1, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

:-)

Oh, no – IT’S ON.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

but he COULDN'T have cheated!!! after what he said about Lance!!

/////////

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Dec 1, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I'm sure that's true.

I mean, it just makes good sense.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't have to wait long

Where Fagan at, he’s always fun in these.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

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by Neil Manich on Dec 1, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Needs some Snowden to set it off correctly.

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Dec 1, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Sadly, there isn't much to argue about.

The facts are clear. He took steroids. His tests show that clearly. He wrote that he took steroids on the form. There’s not doubt about any of that.

The only thing to debate is how much of an idiot he is and whether or not he should get 6 months off his sentence because he had the money to hire a lawyer.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh there will be much to argue

There will be those trying to spin a narrative

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I hinted at one above - the CSAC is out to get him!

But the shocking thing about this debate is that other than the general “should steroids be legal or not” argument, there hasn’t been much to talk about with Chael. Dude clearly cheated.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Choose your own narrative

1. The CSAC is incompetent, remember Sean Sherk?

2. TRT is valid and Chael is sick, this was a paper work issue

3. Steroids aren’t that bad, we should legalize them

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m of the opinion that steriods aren’t that bad, we should legalize them, Chael isn’t a bad guy for using them, and that Chael should serve whatever sentance the CSAC hands him.

I also think that saying what he did isn’t “cheating” for either reason 1 or 2 is insulting. He’s a man, he did what he did, he should live with the consequences.

When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON

-Joell Ortiz

by The Lethal Haze on Dec 1, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait....

It isn’t cheating to break the rules?

What IS cheating in your mind?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

IF he knowingly broke the rules, by definition he cheated.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

To clarify: in my mind, Sonnen cheated, intentionally, and should pay whatever price is set.

At the same time, him using steroids doesn’t diminish his accomplishments as a fighter. In my mind.

Trying to excuse Sonnen because the CSAC is incompetent, or because he didn’t fill out the right paperwork is insulting.

When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON

-Joell Ortiz

by The Lethal Haze on Dec 2, 2010 10:04 PM EST up reply actions  

They don't diminish his accomplishments?

Do they enhance the accomplishments of those who competed fairly? How long has he been cheating? In what other ways does he habitually cheat?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 3, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

not in my eyes, no

I’m of the opinion lots of guys juice, very few get caught. Even fewer get some ridiculous TUE.

So excuse me for not caring when a guy gets popped.

When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON

-Joell Ortiz

by The Lethal Haze on Dec 4, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh hey guys!

I would like someone to explain to me why TRT is even allowed in the first place, if general steroid/PED use is not.

Get ’em.

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

From my limited understanding...

…it’s only allowed if they stay in the normal range. The reason for allowing it is that it’s a serious – kinda – medical treatment.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

(I mean, the symptoms are "fewer erections" - that's a medical necessity if ever I've heard of one...)

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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, I understand that. And I don’t particularly care because I don’t think steroids are the Worst Thing Ever in Professional Sports.

It just seems odd that if people want athletes to compete “naturally,” why there’s no outrage over TRT.

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's because, when done correct, they test within normal levels

My point is, that’s nature. If you lose testosterone, you lose it. Randy Couture losing testosterone is nature.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s the Devil’s Advocate I’m suggesting.

The problem with that argument is that you would have to ban any sort of surgery to repair damaged ligaments, etc. For instance, Tommy John surgery in baseball has been proven to add velocity to fastballs. Laser surgery “unnaturally” improves eyesight. Where does one draw the line then?

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

And I would further argue that

corticosteroids and glucosteroids (anti-inflammatories) have enhanced the careers of more pros through the years than AAS’

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no "slippery slope" in TJs

Who would go under the knife and be out for a year for a surgery that “might” add mphs to your fastball?

Same with Lasix. The risk for Lasix are high.

With testosterone, there’s little risk, a lot of reward and a lot of room for abuse.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s not really the point I’m making.

by Mike Fagan on Dec 1, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I know what the point you're making is

I’m responding with the reasons why people would object to TRT rather than TJS or Laser Eye Surgery

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

DUDE

What part of “fewer erections” do you think fails to stir the sympathy of the internet keyboard warrior?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Its just that

there are many more symptoms caused by low testosterone…decreased sex drive is just one…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

The point.

You miss it.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 1, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Then by all means...

enlighten me…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You do it so often that I can't tell if it's deliberate...

…or hopeless. All over this thread you miss everyone’s sarcasm. Sheldon Cooper: is that you?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps, but

When sarcasm is blended in with clear misinformation I tend to assume it is all misinformation, rather than a touch of sarcasm thoughtfully blended into a pile of misinformation…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Where is Subo I just went over to fightlinker and found an article about the MFC promoter calling out Dana White and a bunch of MMA clothing brands doesn’t he usually link that stuff here?

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Great read. I just love the fact that steriods and a cracked rib still didnt keep Superman from doing his thing. :)

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This is an awesome article I can’t believe that 303c rule though you mean to tell me someone could walk into a fight on meth and no one could do a thing

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I think there's a difference between "not being in the condition to fight"

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

so if you held your shit together and walked into the ring there would be no way to stop you? It’s a pretty irrelevant point since you would have to be out of your mind to do something like that and not to mention ignore all the consequences that would follow but it is weird to know that the rules would allow it.

by drano on Dec 1, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

If you admit to taking a drug that alters your mental state, I don't think you'll be considered in condition to fight

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Fuck that

Mescalin makes me SEE things, man. I know when you are gonna throw a punch before you do; just like I know that the unicorn you are riding around the cage on is just in it for the publicity.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Dec 1, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

im curious about this

chaels a politician, hes no idiot but from the sounds of this he royally fucked up. im hoping he has some really good story tomorrow cause right now i have a hard time believing he screwed up this bad without even realizing what was gonna happen

but barnetts a scumbag, he should have a lifetime ban his behavior is unexcusable

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Dec 1, 2010 1:56 PM EST reply actions  

From what I've read

Weight cutting can screw with your testosterone levels if you do it since an early age so thats why hes taking it presumably. The high level can be because its still so fresh in his system and making the weight cut itself may up it a little as well.

Thats my guess but will see what happens tomorrow I guess.

by SeanyD on Dec 1, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Chaels been fighting for how long?

How many times has he cut to make 185? He’s done it pretty regularly since coming back to the UFC. He’s never been caught before. But in this fight he showed signs of Bacne and a 16.9? I think it’s pretty obvious that Chael and CO. are far from innocent.

by Spider_Vemon on Dec 1, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Well hes a life long wrestler too

Hes been doing weight cuts from probably 15 or younger for school.

by SeanyD on Dec 1, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

NO NO NO

That’s false science.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 1, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

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by Thats It For you! on Dec 1, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That is simply untrue

or, if it is true, it is completely undocumented…idk where that idea came from, but its BS.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

barney needs a lifetime ban

how many times has he popped now? when do you draw the line?

by fontgangsta on Dec 1, 2010 2:07 PM EST reply actions  

The line is officially set

at 15 failed tests

Its safe to say that without Playboy we wouldn't have MMA as we know it today. - Jonathan Snowden

by Chris Hall on Dec 1, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe SF is waiting on Barnett’s reinstatement in order to make the Fedor-Barnett fight happen. no one has really talked about it.

by goodbadugly16 on Dec 1, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

Actually...
After all, what is the purpose of TRT? It’s used when someone has a damaged endocrine system and has to synthetically boost their testosterone levels in their bodies.

The medical purpose of TRT is to treat low testosterone levels, whether coming from endocrine system damage, low natural levels, or other causes…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 1, 2010 2:42 PM EST reply actions  

I wish this was on TV.

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding." - Sun Tzu
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Dec 1, 2010 2:47 PM EST reply actions  

Wow – totally agree, although I think it would be a lot more boring than we hope.

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Dec 1, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

chael should just ditch this TRT line and suddenly announce

that he suffers from the rare biological imbalance of posessing 16 separate testicles, all of which pump vast amounts of testosterone into his system, making him a supercharged ground guy who is occasionaly schizotically possessed by guys with espanyol accents… problem solved. no?

'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'

by rohedron on Dec 1, 2010 7:19 PM EST reply actions  

This is going to be pitiful.

I mean, the proof is in the pudding people.

A follow-up carbon isotope analysis was conducted on Sept. 7, with the finding that the test results were consistent with the administration of a steroid.

Case closed.

by destructivist on Dec 2, 2010 12:49 AM EST reply actions  

Except

He already acknowledged taking it, the pertinent question is whether he was allowed to be taking it or not.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Dec 2, 2010 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Allowed by whom?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.

by jemaleddin on Dec 2, 2010 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

That really proves nothing that he didn't already admit, that the testosterone was synthetic

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by S.C. Michaelson on Dec 2, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

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