Is Yakuza Related Corruption Killing MMA in Japan?
Yes. That's the short answer. For a comprehensive introduction to the interconnections between Japanese MMA and organized crime read Fight Opinion's Yakuza section. Pride's tragic fall is directly related to their use of Yakuza fixers to try to intimidate rival promoters who briefly stole Fedor Emelianenko away from them. This post tells that sordid story.
Now it appears that FEG, the parent company of Dream and K-1, is sinking into the same abyss. From Fighter's Only:
Japanese mega-promoter Fighting Entertainment Group, parent company of K-1 and DREAM, has suffered a new setback, according to a long-established Japanese agent. The agent says that the much-trumpeted deal with investment bank PUJI has come to naught and that the investment bank has said that it can do nothing for FEG.
...
Unable to obtain loans or capital from investors FEG has, according to our souce, gone to the ‘black market' for loans with which to pay its fighters. This of course raises the spectre of the Yakuza links which killed PRIDE FC, but FEG has always been fastidious about avoiding such links (or at least, having any such links made public). Seeking capital from ‘unofficial' sources is a very risky move.Despite the difficulty FEG and PUJI have had in raising investment, there are several interested parties hovering in the wings if the company is put up for sale.
We'll look at the Dynamite! NYE card and hear from HDNet's Andrew Simon, Zach Arnold, Fightlinker and Dave Walsh of Head Kick Legend in the full entry.
Fightlinker breaks down how the annual New Year's Eve spectacular Dynamite 2010 is shaping up for FEG:
Is it just me or has FEG spent the better part of the year having all it's best laid plans fall apart? When your biggest fight of the year after Aoki / Kawajiri is a last second freakshow between Minowaman and Satoshi Ishii, then you know you've had problems putting shit together. And those problems continue into the promotion's year end Dynamite!! spectacular, which still isn't very spectacular a month away from showtime. Here's what's solid thus far:
- Bibiano Fernandes vs Hiroyuki Takaya
- Melvin Manhoef vs TBA
And here's what's on the more hopeful / speculative list:
- Kazushi Sakuraba vs Akebono
- Gegard Mousasi vs Jerome LeBanner
- Shinya Aoki vs Gilbert Melendez
Unfortunately, as of now LeBanner hasn't agreed to the Mousasi fight or even what kind of fight it would be. The Gilbert Melendez fight has officially been scuttled because of some weak sounding excuse about Gil's contract negotiation with Strikeforce. And unless FEG's TV partner TBS is willing to pony up the boatload of cash required to get Akebono back in the cage, there's no way that fight will happen.
Sherdog is more optimistic:
At this point, we still have no way of knowing whether Dynamite will shape up the way Dream EP Sasahara has claimed it will, but we should be skeptical that FEG and TBS would abandon the chase for mainstream viewers on such an important day for television viewing. All FEG programming could use a ratings boost these days -- particularly so for their year-end effort -- and thus, we'll have to wait and see whom FEG and TBS will tab for Dynamite and just how exactly they'll rationalize each bout as having serious implications in the greater scheme of fight sport. However it turns out though, expect FEG and TBS to go all out and put on a great show, as they really have no other choice for New Year's Eve.
Andrew Simon of HDNet (which airs DREAM and is planning on airing Dyanamite! 2010) responds to the doubters on Twitter:
@andrewhdnet MMA websites for past 3 years said Japanese MMA orgs are on verge of bankruptcy.How long is the verge? Can you predict demise for years?
Zach Arnold responds to Simon:
I was the one who spelled out the troubles of PRIDE starting in November 2005 up until the promotion crumbled and even on its final days people were still in complete denial about it.
There is no textbook to understand about the Japanese fight business. There's a lot of mafia elements to it and you have to understand the structure of the gangs. This isn't kid's play and this isn't some cute movie where mobsters are glorified.
Combine that with the fact that you have lots of dummy companies, shadow alliances, and many moving parts and you have to be a lifer or at least have a fundamental understanding of what's happening to really understand why things operate the way they do.
I'm not surprised that people are still in the dark but I'm disappointed by it because given past history with PRIDE, you can educate yourself relatively well on the warning signs of things to come.
And Dave Walsh of Head Kick Legend adds:
Andrew Simon is a good guy, but from what I've seen he tends to believe his business partners. He flipped out at me and called me a liar when I said DREAM.17 wasn't happening on the HDnet planned date, told me to talk to Mike Kogan and get my facts straight. I told him this was direct from Kogan.
At this point, they still had everything ready to go, crews waiting to go to Japan, travel, etc. That should be a sign, but he is still trusting. Kogan has admitted he has no clue if he will have a job in 2011 and there is some rumors pointing towards him possibly helping It's Showtime with their US shows coming up, so he might be angling to work with them (total speculation, btw).
I think the easiest way to explain (a lot of) Japanese companies to people is that they are a front for money laundering operations.
The scale and popularity of DREAM shows means they should be not only turning a profit, but flourishing, even with less ratings than before. But the truth is, they are set to be profitable after a certain amount is skimmed.
Here's hoping for the best for Japanese MMA. American UFC fans seem to be pretty complacent about the collapse of Japanese MMA, but that is a foolish response.
Modern MMA was born almost simultaneously in the U.S. and Japan in the 1990s but for the first decade of the sport, Japan was by far the larger and more developed market. It's no exaggeration to say that it was the blockbuster success of the Japanese market that really propelled MMA's growth from 1995 to 2005. Hopefully, the U.S. market can carry the mantle of world-wide MMA leadership without a brutal collapse of its own.
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I’m unfamiliar with what happened to Pride’s collapse but should I assume it’s the same thing as what’s going on right now?
With the amount of craziness that happens in Japan, MMA doesn’t appeal to them? They make robot women, cars out of briefcases, have a show where you get bitchslapped for laughing in class (which I enjoy), yet they can’t pull people to watch fights?
Pride’s collapse was different. There was plenty of fan interest in their product, but despite their strong ratings, broadcasters wanted no part of them because their alleged yakuza ties. They were still doing a bang up business at the gate, but without TV revenue, they could not compete financially with the UFC for talent.
FEG’s problem on the other hand, is that fan interest is dwindling. Their ratings are down, their attendance is down, their sponsors are bailing, etc.
Its not that simple.
what the public wants to see is not always what fight (kakutougi) fans want to see. And in most cases thats a japanese star, of which there are few. Not to mention no one has emerged within the last couple years other than Aoki and maybe Maxi blanco but he’s a gaijin.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Even though they’ve getting handled in the UFC, do you know if they at least have any interest in the States? At this point now all they have is Yushin Okami.
That would be a question for dave walsh.
But I believe from what has been said the UFC airs programming on a japanese equivalent of spike, a cable channel. And there is interest amongst kakutougi fans, but im not so sure about the general public. I think the UFC strategy is much the same as the UK: introduce the product on TV, build a following, then plunk it on PPV.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
it's much harder in Japan
where PPV has never taken off as a major market.
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Well correct me if I’m wrong but they haven’t been doing a good job with Okami cause I think they’ll have a hard time selling this fight unless they make the winner of A. Silva/Belfort the bad guy. Maybe easier for Belfort cause it’s “You wanna see the man who defeated Silva fight again?!” approach.
I think they will give okami a buffer.
Theyll put okami’s title fight on a card with jose aldo or cain or something like that. they arent dumb enough to try and sell a card with just that fight at the top.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I think it is the lack of interesting
Japanese fighters that is killing MMA in Japan…
Ontop of that, most importantly, it is the lack of NON Japanese fighters that are
choosing to fight in the US or Canada instead of Japan.
Also, the lack of structure in their promotions.
But, I think the #1 reason why the more popular/skilled US/Brazilian fighters are not choosing to fight in Japan is because they are not sure if they are going to get their PAY DAY!
With fighters like Nick Diaz and several others complaining about it…who wants to take the risk?
well to point out once again, FEG does not equal the JMMA sphere. you’ve got all the other promotions who I so far have not heard bad things about aside from sengoku’s judging. And yes as we alluded to earlier, there are no real homegrown stars at the moment. Aoki is popular for a kakutougi fighter but I wouldnt call him mainstream like sudo or masato.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Well, here is the thing.
UFC airs on WOWOW, which isn’t exactly a widespread cable station, and they are basically an infomercial.
Nobody in Japan cares about Yushin Okami, either, sadly. His UFC stint has helped him a bit, but not much. He actually won PRIDE’s version of ‘TUF’ if you can imagine that, which shows how little anybody cared about that or him.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
That was pretty clutch comin in like that.
Damn well…damn. With that being said it sounds like even if the UFC acquired Satoshi Ishii and built him up it still wouldn’t matter. Unless this guy became a dominating force like Jon Jones. But we haven’t had an international star since Lyoto Machida.
speak of the devil and he shall appear...haha
So in other words the UFC is paying to be on cable. thats pretty ironic.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
The devil is just out of frame.
UFC has little penetration in Japan, although they are picking up some steam.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
Hmmm.....
I can’t say why but this reminds me of Dana White and Co. selling 15% of the UFC to some sheik in The Middle East.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
for starters, it was 11%
secondly…. no, its nothing like that at all
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 30, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah
the ruling elite of a middle eastern dictatorship is corrupt almost by definition. I am NOT a fan of that move at all.
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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 30, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Krmt is right.
This is not like allowing for some investment money. this is borrowing cash from crazy powerful ninjas who have a lot of pull even in 2010 japan.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
like the sheiks of abu dhabi don't have crazy powers?
it’s not like you can take them to court.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
their influence in the US
aka, the home market, is minimal to none. At the one event per year in Abu Dhabi, it is perhaps different. Basically their power in the UFC compared to the problems the Yakuza can wield to Dream and what they did wield to Pride are two completely separate things.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 30, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
For me
it’s less about who wields more power or that the Sheiks are shady, it’s that mob money is always going to be perceived as shadier than a public investor. Especially when it involves Yakuza and Japan.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 30, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
haha, very true.
I guess the difference is just legitimacy. yakuza wield that immeasurable secret power, just like most societies where a power vacuum existed.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you nate.
as much as people want to hate or just disparage the JMMA scene, at the end of the day you have to realize that this will effect global MMA. If the market sinks over there we will have tons of unemployed fighters probably even worse than just after pride was purchased. this in turn shrinks the talent pool and means that salaries are less competitive. you gotta look at the big picture, and failure in Nippon land means nothing good for anyone.
it's the loss of those millions of fans
more than anything that hurts. If Japan were a more transparent market place I’d be excited about the prospect of the UFC or another competitor jumping in but that seems pretty impossible.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yeah, dana would have to give out some vanity front row seats and make some new friends.
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Larger sign of the poor global economy
Probably reason #1 why the UFC is looking to expand into China. For all their problems, their economy is relatively good right now.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 30, 2010 2:49 PM EST reply actions
Wait until China can no longer hide their problems behind an under valued and self deflated currency.
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Nov 30, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
oh i'm not saying
the shit won’t hit the fan eventually. just saying right now and in the fairly immediate future, China is looking fairly good economy-wise compared to most of the rest of the world.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 30, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Good thing Warren Buffett bought BNSF
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Nov 30, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
i have no idea what the
Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway has to do with my statement, but OK.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 30, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
BNSF depend heavily on Chinese imports aka shipping Wal-marts merchandise around the country. Shit hits the fan it’s better to have an owner with deep pockets and the right connections that made purchased the company on the cheap.
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Nov 30, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
you could not be more correct. Chinas economy is one huge time bomb just waiting to blow.Anyone with any understanding of Communist economies and financial institutions know that history has taught us that socialist economies just plain old don’t work for the long haul. All China is doing right now is that old saying robbing Peter to pay Paul.
At the end of 2007, bank debt in China stood at $5 trillion – about twice the size of its GDP. That’s the highest proportion of any economy in the world
I be interested to see how a UFC card resembling this one would be recieved in Japan
MW Championship: Silva vs Okami
Gomi vs Sherk
Wanderlei vs Leben
Akiyama vs Miller
Big Nog vs Cro Cop
The UFC can get back to Japan if they try (UFC 53 was nearly Cro Cop’s Coronation as UFC HW Champion)
I guess i could also point out
That the yamaguchi-gumi is not having a good time right now either. the head of kodo kai which is the 2nd most powerful sub family just got locked up for a bunch of political murders and the head of yamaguchi-gumi shinobu tsukasa is still behind bars i believe, so we might even see their influence also diminish a bit.
yeah
although the leadership vacuum has given a younger and more violent generation of gangsters an opening to really go apeshit.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I have been wondering if this is true for the vast majority of gangs / organized crime the younger are more violent and are more deadly. Or everything is the same the only difference is that these violent acts have more avenues of getting to the public now more than ever. Think about Miami in the 70’s and 80’s.
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Nov 30, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Myself and nottheface were talking about this in the dynamite thread yesterday, and we basically came to the same conclusion, which is the opposite of the one here:
The Yukuza isn’t killing JMMA. JMMA can’t exist on a top-flight level WITHOUT the Yakuza.
It’s as simple as that. There’s no profit in it without corruption. Just making a go of it without involving them will not work. It’s wrong and evil and all that, but it’s just a fact of life. Everyone knows what the Yakuza is involved in over there, but people just pretend it’s not happening. When it breaks as a “scandal”, who does it surprise? No one. At least no one over there.
The entire rise of the big promotion(s) in Japan functioned with a corrupt underbelly, this is pretty well-known. Same with pro-wrestling. Saying that JMMA rose on it’s own and can survive on it’s own ignores that the Yakuza has always been involved at some level, haven’t they?. When they got flushed out, it all went downhill. I don’t think it CAN rise again on the level.
http://www.instrength.com
I dunno about that
the yakuza made some things easier like booking arenas but they also took a huge skim off the top that is forcing FEG into bankruptcy despite running shows that should be profitable.
And it’s naive to think they’ve been flushed out.
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The Yakuza was also involved in ticket selling in a lot of promotions, MMA and pro-wrestling. They’d buy a huge chunk of tickets, then go to businesses and make them buy them. Sure they took their cut, but they also made the org’s a lot of cash.
http://www.instrength.com
here's a good capsule history
of the yakuza from the FightOpinion comments:
At the end of World War II it was feared that the Japanese would become Communists. So our government (U.S.) let a bunch of low level gamblers and whore-runners (the Yakuza) execute the professors, ex-army officers and labor-types who were Pro-Communism. The Yakuza was smart enough to insert themselves into every aspect of business life and haven’t been removed yet. Unlike in the U.S. where the various mafia groups, Italian, Irish, Jewish, Russian, Chinese, etc, were immigrants on the outside of the system trying to work their way up, in Japan the gangsters were the system. They were at the ground floor so to speak, the way people in the U.S. that can trace their roots back to the Mayflower are usually well off.
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Right
This is why I never understood why exposing them in MMA was so scandalous. Everyone knew what was going on, ask Antonio Inoki. It’s just the honor system that made it hush hush. TV networks couldn’t handle their reputation being sullied (despite not having much of a non-Yakuza rep to begin with), so they were forced to pull their deal from Pride. It’s all ridiculous, but I’ll never understand the nuances of Japanese culture.
http://www.instrength.com
That’s a slightly embellished of history. The yakuza, or gokudō, have been around since the Edo period. The US government didn’t really have to do anything for them, they stepped in to fill the void left in the wake of the surrender.
I’m critiquing the idea that the US government helped establish the Yokuza to eliminate the communist party. The same US government that legalized the party that was outlawed under imperial Japan? The Yokuza where well entrenched before Supreme Commander General Matthew Ridgway started purging the party in the 50’s.
no one is disputing that.
The US just gave them a boost, just like they did in chile, argentina, bolivia, italy, etc., etc., (see Pinochet, Franco, etc.,)
by destructivist on Nov 30, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I think the original quote did just that:
At the end of World War II it was feared that the Japanese would become Communists. So our government (U.S.) let a bunch of low level gamblers and whore-runners (the Yakuza) execute the professors, ex-army officers and labor-types who were Pro-Communism. The Yakuza was smart enough to insert themselves into every aspect of business life and haven’t been removed yet.
I disagree.
There is plenty of money to be made even in today’s modest returns compared to JMMA’s heyday. It’s just that there are too many people who have to get paid to put on an event to make it attractive to outside investors. The Yakuza aren’t going to put up their own money to put on the shows but they are going to take a ton out on the promotion so there is a nothing left at the end of the day for the people who actually put up the money. That’s the gap they are facing.
The Yakuza have always done that though, and it was profitable before. My point is that, while the Yakuza are obviously still involved on some smaller level, what they did for the promotions in their heyday is an important piece of what made them so popular. Yes, they take cash from investors, but they always did that. They did a lot of other (shady) things that made the venture profitable, so investors were willing to look the other way.
I’m not sure I explained that very clearly.
http://www.instrength.com
Fuck you, pay me!
Yeah, they were able to do that because there was lots of money to go around. The mob, doesn’t matter which one, doesn’t adjust to weakened economies. Their take is the same, no matter what. So with less revenue there is no money for the investor. This line from Goodfellas illustrates it properly:
“Now the guy’s gotta come up with Crowley’s money every week, no matter what. Business is bad? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? Fuck you, pay me. The place got hit by lightning, huh? Fuck you, pay me.”
The Yakuza doesn’t adjust to economic shifts necessarily, but they’ve always understood the difference between big business and the corporate world. For instance, they;d force all businesses to buy tickets to shows, but only make small businesses buy 2 or 4 because that’s what they could afford, while they made large companies buy hundreds. Right now, they can’t make anyone buy hundreds because no one can afford it. So there’s not much in it for them.
Besides my little tangent there, I was actually referring more to the other things they do to make a venture profitable, as opposed to just collecting cash. The Yakuza doesn’t really operate like most organized crime syndicates. It’d take way too long to get into here though.
http://www.instrength.com
Right, but no matter what there is a fixed cost. It doesn’t matter what the show does, their cut is the same. They don’t care if JMMA takes off or not, they have plenty of avenues for revenue. But, if there is going to be a JMMA show they are not going to change their take to adjust to a weakened economy. It’s going to be the same and investors be damned. That’s not their problem.
by memitim on Nov 30, 2010 4:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Again, it’s a whoooole lot more complicated than them just taking a percentage of anything. Zach’s quote above covers it quite well: I’ve studied a lot about it and I barely understand the ins and outs. All people keep telling me is “you have to be Japanese to fully get it”.
http://www.instrength.com
Of course it is more complicated but that is the jist of it. I’ve spent a lot of time over there, not for MMA, but I understand that there are fixed costs to do certain things in Japan that might make it impossible for me to bring in investors into the market directly. So, you have to have a partner and that partner has fixed costs. So, you kind of give up on Japan even though they are a huge economy. The UFC and Strikeforce both have the stars to put on big shows there but it just isn’t worth it at the end of the day. That is why it becomes so insular unless you are a major corporation distributing a mass product.
I’m not going to go as far as you do and say that they need the Yokuza to make money. But from my experience and discussions with my Japanese friends I think it’s unrealistic to think you can completely get rid of the Yokuza. They are an integral part of Japanese society and the Japanese fight business. It’s like saying you’re going to do business in Naples without having to deal with the Camorra. Or do business in Moscow or Mexico City without some sort of payoffs. The best you can hope for is to limit the amount of leeching they can do.
japanese mma hasnt been relevant since pride fell
mma will continue its growth with or without the japanese market
my real question though is whats gonna happen to k1?
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
relevant, I don't know, but fun surely
A lot of my favorites fighters are down there. And there is a special atmosphere in those events, you cannot find it in America.
o sure
they’re great to watch and i definately enjoy them. but in the scheme of mmas growth worldwide dreams death isnt really that huge of a deal, that markets been gone for 4 years now
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
not entirely
lots of good American fighters have gotten their first paychecks or major exposure in Japan since the fall of Pride. King Mo, Joe Warren, Dan Hornbuckle etc.
Also non-Americans like Zaromskis have become known. And veterans like Nick Thompson and Jorge Santiago have found some nice paydays there.
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The Yakuza could never control Fedor because
His Russian mafia buddies would totally kick the crap out of a bouncha dudes missing portions of their fingers running around with 1950s rockabilly hairdos.
by Psychic Octopus on Nov 30, 2010 3:23 PM EST reply actions
Yakuza has more skillz than Russian mafia.
Besides you’re gangsta tactics, they can physically whup that ass and they are bound by honor. That goes a long way.
And your name is badass.
Thanks
They may be bound by ‘honor’ but the RBN would fill up their inboxes with more viagra ads than they could handle and they’d be forced to commit seppuku.
by Psychic Octopus on Nov 30, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Son, my mafia is top of the line.
They made a video game about Yakuzas. It’s called Yakuza. And it’s about Yakuza. Russians are just NPCs in Mercenaries.
Respect the Armani!
They made a video game about Yakuzas. It’s called Yakuza. And it’s about Yakuza
This cracked me up.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 30, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
same lol.
"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."
by Broke Lesnar on Dec 1, 2010 5:10 AM EST up reply actions
This.
The scale and popularity of DREAM shows means they should be not only turning a profit, but flourishing, even with less ratings than before. But the truth is, they are set to be profitable after a certain amount is skimmed.
There is no reason DREAM should not be able to function and put on profitable shows. The only reason is there are too many hands in the till, Yakuza or not. It makes it impossible to bring investors in. It’s like investing in movie; it all seems cool and the premiers are fun for the investors but then when they look at the cash waterfall and how much actually makes it back to them it is a nice write off and a bad investment. DREAM has that problem time ten.
Nate the only reason I'd disagree with your final line about American UFC fans
Is that Japan is a fad based market. The only thing that truly has survived the years is Pro-Wrestling and that could be attributed to people constantly taking up the mantles of the masked wrestlers (see Minowaman taking up the mantle of Tigermask V).
The American market is less fad based. Sure, it could be argued that the WWE was once strong and has faded but that also could be attributed to the rise of the UFC and poor scripting along with shifting from the Attitude era to a more family friendly product. Of course, it’s still a young sport but it has fought off near collapse in the US and is now at an all time high. I think it’s okay to be optimistic about the UFC surviving. I’m not sure about other leagues as none have shown an ability to maintain long term growth and at this point there is no way that Strikeforce could go back to being niche show in San Jose.
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I don't like being one promotion in one market away from death
I don’t mean to say I’m actively worried for the UFC, I’m just trying to explain to TUF n00bs and haters why they should care. Losing the 54 million people who watched the biggest NYE events in Japan is a loss for MMA no matter how you slice it.
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It's not good for the fighters
But the markets never crossed. So what happens in japan won’t affect the strength of the sport in the USA.
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Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Nov 30, 2010 4:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
except that what's good for teh fighters is good for the sport
having an additional market for fighters to make money, get exposure & experience means you have more highly skilled and compelling fighters emerging. It also means you attract a higher grade of athlete to mma because there are more ways for them to make money.
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Flip side is that fighters aren't getting paid
In a timely manner or ever.
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Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Nov 30, 2010 5:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It also doesn't help that this one promotion is based entirely around one strong personality and one (currently) wealthy family.
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
I'm going to go with the label blackout gave me and play devil's advocate here
MMA is only a fad in Japan? In a country with less than half the population of the US, mma is still drawing 10,000 crowds with weak cards. And when it airs on TBS it draws 13 million viewers. Twice what the UFC or Strikeforce draws on Spike or CBS. It isn’t that the Japanese public has given up on sougou kakutoug, it’s that they’ve given up on the promotions.
As for the US market, what happens if the ppv market drops off? You could just as easily argue that the UFC ppv market is a fad as well. The UFC is trying to expand overseas, but until that starts showing results, where do they get the revenue to pay off their loans without ppv? I wouldn’t lay odds that it happens, but it is not an impossible scenario.
The question is whether those fans tuning in in Japan are doing so because they are fans of MMA or that they are just watching the big special events on network tv. Would they follow the sport if it wasn’t on network tv? In the US we know that there are plenty of fans who will follow the sport to where it goes and even pay significant money for broadcast. There is a market in Japan for MMA but it’s such a different culture and there are real differences in how the entertainment markets work between the two that it’s hard to directly compare them.
Myself I don’t think the sky is falling in Japan (well the K-1 sky may be but not the MMA one). Dream may go the way of the dinosaurs but the market is there enough that the sport will survive. Big time MMA may be on it’s way out but someone will try to fill the market gap in some way. Of course without Dream showing on HDnet it might as well be dead as far as US MMA fans are concerned. It’s always been hard for US fans to get ahold of, without the big grand promotions it’s going to get even harder.
The US pro wrestling market is like a roller coaster, it’s never experienced flat constant growth just big spurts and drop offs followed by big spurts and drop offs. There is a fad based element to that kind of market movement.
In the UFC and WWE's case
They both “benefit” from the lack of a clear #2 promotion — just look at Strikeforce’s failure to break out as “THE challenger,” while TNA… let’s not go there. (Note re: ROH — it is NOT considered a challenger due to its explicitly declared niche.)
Yes and no, the WWE was both hurt and helped when the WCW made it’s big move and in the end they came out of that a stronger company than before. I do agree that TNA isn’t really worth mentioning although it is funny that they do try to act the role and they are a fixture on Spike.
I think the UFC is helped more by this due to being a real sport and they may not be stuck in such a fad based roller coaster business model but they do need stars to draw and there will always be a spot for a number two promotion behind them to take the slack and build up fighters. Strikeforce may never challenge as a true business contender but they(or whatever company comes after them if they fail) do have a real niche to fill in the market.
Why the fall of the Japanese MMA scene doesn't matter...
Historical importance doesn’t equate to present necessity. Japanese MMA back in the 90s and early 00’s was essential to the growth of the sport. They have been a non player for the past 5 years though, and enough time has passed that their demise does nothing to hinder growth of the sport elsewhere in the world. Hell, their terrible record of paying fighters, yakuza influence, and more has actually HURT mma more than it has helped. This may be an apt analogy: Imagine japanese mma is the gracie family. Now imagine everyone in the gracie family just upped and disappeared tomorrow. Would MMA take a beating? Nope. BJJ is too widespread and the information has been disseminated already. It has evolved beyond the gracies.
This actually speaks to network theory, specifically the Fax Effect. Once a movement/idea/force has reached a certain critical threshhold, the originating source cannot stop the growth because it has become too widely distributed and self-reinforcing. Losing a few nodes here and there, even a huge one like the original, does not have profound effects on the rest of the network.
Finally, Japanese MMA is not a sustained model. The huge shows they put on are few and far between. The Japanese mma scene is sporadic and splotchy, it doesn’t have cultural momentum. Its like a gangrenous arm. Cut it off before it does more damage.
you're conflating
the market and the promoters. your gracie analogy sort of works if i was talking about FEG, DreamStage, etc. But I’m talking about the approx. 70 million Japanese fans who’ve tuned in to see MMA at one time or another. That’s a huge loss to the MMA community no matter how you slice it. Even with it being less profitable per fan than the States because of no PPV and even with the Yakuza cutting themselves in for an unearned 20% (wild guess) that’s a shit ton of money to take out of the global MMA economy.
The US fanbase has grown enough to more than offset it, but we’d be much better off if MMA were to boom in both countries at once.
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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 30, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Bingo.
Is it better for MMA or worse that potentially there will be no NYE show? I would very much like to see matches like Melendez/Aoki II, Mousasi v LeBanner, The Reem vs Josh Barnett. Matches that take a lot to happen here in the States. It’s a loss to the entire industry that it’s probably not going to happen. JMMA, when properly cultivated, can be a big business and make the MMA industtry even more healthy.
I don't know
It might be better that it dies completely. At least as far as a big show. I really don’t want more orgs snatching up top fighters so we have a bunch of spread out guys, never knowing who is best.
I think if JMMA “died” and the legion of fans of MMA there really want MMA still, the will find it. Same way we did during the Dark Ages, only they’ll have way better resources than we did.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 30, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
If it does die we lose out on seeing so many fighters that can entertain us. I don’t want MMA to be without fighters like Aoki, Kawajiri, Gomi, Hata, etc. Not to mention getting more opportunities to see fighters like Mousasi, The Reem, Hansen etc fight. We lose if it dies, and their legion of fans aren’t going to turn to the US product because the US promotions aren’t going over there to put on shows, so the industry suffers overall. It’s bad all around.
What makes you think
that if JMMA goes those fighters would just retire? Or that viewers wouldn’t tune into overseas shows if they had no other choice? Or that orgs wouldn’t try harder to break or re-break into the JMMA since there wouldn’t be a bigger org there cockblocking them?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 30, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying they retire. What I am saying is where and how are those fighters going to get exposure early in their career to make their way over here. How are they going to get better to the point where they can compete on a global stage if JMMA dies? Like I said in another post, the UFC could go there today and put on a huge show. They don’t because the cost is prohibitive. If the indigenous companies die, the whole industry will.
Shooto
DEEP
Pancrase
ZST
…and so on.
JMMA IS NOT DYING. It’s only top-flight JMMA that’s in trouble.
http://www.instrength.com
Where does DEEP/ZST go without DREAM? When was the last Pancrase event? These are all feeders to the top-flight JMMA. If the top-flight dies then I think it is a very long time before we see top MMA competitors come out of Japan and that would be a shame.
Where does DEEP/ZST go without DREAM?
They did just fine before Dream even existed. Look at the Deep 50th Impact card. It was full of stars.
When was the last Pancrase event?
3 weeks ago or so. Shigeki Osawa picked up a win.
If the top-flight dies then I think it is a very long time before we see top MMA competitors come out of Japan and that would be a shame.
The void will be filled. There will always be plenty of places for Japanese MMA fighters to ply their trade.
http://www.instrength.com
Yeah, DEEP 50 was full of stars because of their relationship with DREAM and it was an anniversary show. If they aren’t basically the DREAM developmental league they are going to struggle without that deal. Pancrase is operating out of a venue that is smaller than the old ECW Arena. That’s about where the level of JMMA will be. If WVR and DREAM go under it is going to be a long time before we see the level of talent come out of Japan that we have. Do you think a fighter like Hansen is going to fight in the Differ Ariake Arena? That is what makes them better fighters, not only fighting their best, but some of the best from around the world.
Again, DEEP existed before Dream. It’s become a bit of a developmental group, but it exists just fine on it’s own. Pancrase drawing 1900 isn’t bad considering the shows they run. There’s nothing wrong with that.
I find it funny that you’d mention Hellboy. Where did he come up? Shooto. He fought in arenas like Differ Ariake all the time. You’re lookin at it the wrong way. If Dream goes under, a company will step up and run the 5-10k arenas, and find a responsible way to do it.
I just think you’re looking at this the wrong way. The top level needs the lower levels for foundation, not the other way around. JMMA will survive and fill whatever niche demand dictates. This won’t affect up-and-coming fighters much. They’ll still have plenty of opportunities.
http://www.instrength.com
DEEP had Pride and Bushido to highlight their fighters and generate interest. Shooto is a worldwide group, not just Japanese. Pancrase is putting on a show for more like 1,000 people, not 2,000. Hell, you can get friends and family of the fighters and trainers to make that crowd. You sure as hell aren’t getting a fighter like Reem or an org like Strikeforce to send over a fighter to Differ Ariake.
I’m only looking at it this way because we haven’t seen or known JMMA without a the larger organizations to keep it afloat. I don’t know that another org will be able to step up and have the resources to put on a show that draws 10-12k people. Someone will have to finance it and Puji hasn’t been able to find anyone to join them in this venture. Who will? I don’t know if a smaller org will get a TV deal that will help keep them going. It’s an unknown. Sure, the smaller companies can put on small shows and maybe it will take off. Or, it will fizzle out and disappear all together. We don’t know. Especially in an entertainment industry like Japan.
The way Pancrase is set up in Differ Ariake, it seats 1892 people and sells out every show. Here, read HKL’s report of a show in April.
Shooto only branched into other countries in the last few years. DEEP didn’t use Pride or Bushido to highlight their guys, that’s where they got called up to when they were good enough.
Again, you’re looking at this completely differently than I am. You’re jumping around, going from a place where prospects get a big stage, and now it’s somewhere SF might send Overeem? That’s a HUGE difference and a whole other conversation. I’m not saying they’d stay in Differ Ariake. Without a top flight promotion, there’d be more demand for what they’re offering.
As for the rest of it, we’ll have to see, like you said. I’m saying that you don’t necessarily need to have shows that draw 10-12k for the sport to survive and thrive in Japan. But only time will tell.
http://www.instrength.com
What I am saying is where and how are those fighters going to get exposure early in their career to make their way over here.
Okay, that’s a lot more reasonable than what you has said before. My answer to this is simply “anywhere else”.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 30, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I understand your point
but I don’t see it as a zero-sum scenario, where any Japanese MMA is better than no Japanese MMA. I was trying to illustrate that with my gangrene example. The current state of Japanese MMA is, imo, actually hurting the fans, the culture which sustains it with its viewership and money. Its like watching Jens…no Ken Shamrock fight again and again and again. Each time it just infects and weakens and saddens the MMA base.
I’m all for MMA in japan to boom, but its not going to in its current implementation. Better to be done with it as it stand, and allow it time to regrow organically through smaller promotions which will be more MMA oriented than business oriented.
they've been putting on some great fights
santiago vs misaki was one of the best fights i’ve ever seen.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Oh no doubt, it was a fantastic fight
But that’s one fight out of how many? Japanese MMA used to put out a ton of great fights. Now it seems to be few and far between. And more far each year. The infrastructure just strikes me as almost totally corrupt and failing. That, overall, its doing more harm and good. Let the existing systems come crashing down. They will get rebuilt by newer, fresher people.
This story is in direct violation of
Betteridge’s Law of Headlines. It should really just be called, “Yakuza Related Corruption is Killing MMA in Japan.”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Nov 30, 2010 4:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This.
Change the headline to an assertion and take out the first two sentences.
When a ball goes into a net, it only means something because we decide it means something. When somebody punches somebody in the face it always means something.
by lowellthehammer on Nov 30, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
"Yakuza Related Corruption is Killing MMA in Japan. Should the UFC be Worried?"
Imagine an African white christ from space
by Barack Lesnar on Nov 30, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word "no". The reason why journalists use that style of headline is that they know the story is probably bullshit, and don’t actually have the sources and facts to back it up, but still want to run it.
When a ball goes into a net, it only means something because we decide it means something. When somebody punches somebody in the face it always means something.
by lowellthehammer on Nov 30, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
when you're aggregating
online discussions you have to reflect the opinions expressed.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Either way
I think you could have spun a way to put the “UFC” title in there ;)
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 30, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"... Is Dana White Involved?"
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I do think it’s funny that Zach writes a shitload of good info about the situation, and people comment on it about 10 times…then start talking about boxing. What the hell?
http://www.instrength.com
There are only about a dozen high volume responders at FightOpinion, and everyone fills their own little niche. One of those niches is ‘contrarian boxing guy’. He is probably the heaviest commenter on the site, and therefore a lot of comments sections get derailed into boxing talk.
Ahh, okay. Kinda sucks for Zach. The fall of JMMA has hurt his business apparently, he’s a really knowledgeable guy and a good writer.
http://www.instrength.com
Super Six's clusterf*** is more interesting than most MMA talk
@TylerTreese on twitter
check out my site @IWannaPolka
Do you at least agree it's a clusterf***?
Cause it was a good idea in January. And it has it’s ups and downs (BadLeftHook said it was imperative I watch Kessler-Froch) but it just couldn’t stay together.
Yeah, but I think anyone that expected it to play out the right way was being naive. There have been some great fights, but injuries, bitchy promoters, and the fighters they picked made it almost guaranteed that it was gonna go off the rails at some point. Not to the degree it has though…it’s been nuts.
I was just saying that I disagree that Super 6 talk is more interesting than MMA talk.
http://www.instrength.com
Super Six....
Super Six as an event is becoming a failure, but it has built 2 names up (Froch and Ward), killed one (Abraham) and gotten some great exposure for the division as a whole; so I think as much as it was a cluster-fuck, it was one of the better things boxing has done in awhile… Wait a minute, why the hell are we talking about boxing? damn it!
I think any American fans who are even mildly familiar with Japanese MMA probably want it to survive
Are you saying
a Chinese company screwed over its partner? Noooooo waaaaaaaay
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Dec 1, 2010 3:19 AM EST reply actions
Do you doubt the power of PUJI money?
Actually I don’t know if you can blame the lack of investors on PUJI, if you had money would you invest in FEG? I doubt even a good investment bank could generate investors for this mess.
lol
yes i do
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Dec 2, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions

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