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K-1 Running Out of Time for Dynamite 2010

The days when Bob Sapp vs Yoshihiro Takayama could draw enormous Japanese TV audiences are long gone.

The blockbuster Japanese MMA New Year's Show is a tradition going back nine years to Antoni Inoki's Inoki Bom Ba Ye in 2001. Since the fall of Pride, K-1/FEG have had the field to themselves. Traditionally all the stops are pulled out to present the biggest MMA and kickboxing spectacle humanly possible. 

Dave Meltzer talked about the tradition a couple of years back:

That was significant because one of Japan's great television traditions is the NHK network's New Year's Eve concert. Unlike in the U.S., where people go out to celebrate New Year's, in Japan nearly everyone stays home for what is the most important television night of the year, and the concert is their version of the Super Bowl, the show that everyone watches.

After the televised success in 2001, the 2002 Inoki Bom Ba Ye on New Year's Eve was headlined by Sapp against Yoshihiro Takayama. The two finished first and second a few weeks earlier for Pro Wrestler of the Year in Japan, and were put on as the headline event on television. The closest thing to a U.S. equivalent would be if Hulk Hogan and The Rock were put in the ring and fought (for real) on a show that was presented by UFC and featured stars from HBO boxing all on the same night. Sapp-Takayama did a 24.5 rating, with Sapp winning quickly via armbar. From that point on, the biggest fighting show of the year became traditional for New Year's Eve.

By 2003, the success of the Sapp-Takayama show was such that three different networks wanted the show. Pride and K-1 split, and Inoki went his own way. The three shows drew 25,000 to 35,000 fans each. It turned out to be the most important night in Japanese MMA history, and not because Sapp and Akebono, for the three minutes of their fight, beat the concert in the ratings.

This year it appears that the tradition may be sputtering to a halt. Zach Arnold breaks it down:

The deadline is approaching for K-1 this week to get everything in order if there is going to be a Dynamite show taking place at Saitama Super Arena. December is already approaching and there is still no official word regarding a television contract between Tokyo Broadcasting System & K-1 for what has been traditionally Japan's biggest yearly fighting show. If TBS does not offer substantial money to K-1 to produce a NYE event, the question is not whether the Dynamite show will lose money... but just how much will be lost.

There are multiple scenarios on the table. The worst of all worlds would involve K-1 paying TBS for television time. Another bad outcome would be K-1 receiving little or no money (bartering), which would prohibit the promotion from being able to spend the kind of money needed to book big-name talent to pop a big TV rating. If a deal between K-1 and TBS falls apart, K-1 could very well find themselves in a scenario where they run a DREAM-type no-TV event.

(This is the current conventional wisdom amongst some Japanese insiders I've talked to over the weekend.)
...
The long-term survival prospects for K-1 will be largely determined by how well the 12/11 Ariake Colosseum and 12/31 Saitama Super Arena shows do business-wise. If they are money losers, the promotion will be on its last legs. If the shows can somehow break even or make a little money, then life goes on.

This could be a very sad end to a glorious decade of Japanese MMA. 

DREAM Dynamite!! 2010 coverage

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the more i learn about japanese MMA's past

the less sorrow I feel for its current struggles. meh beh, they are paying for all their shadiness.

by thecockroach on Nov 29, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions  

yeah

but the thing about the shady years is that is was a big win for fans and fighters.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Nov 29, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

fixed
but the thing about the shady years is that is was a big win for fans and some fighters.

by truck on Nov 29, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

This sums it up for me.

by Mike Fagan on Nov 29, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Attaboy

This is the correct way to look at it.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 29, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

whatever way u look at it, it is all our loss

by zuffazombie on Nov 29, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Aww

We lost watching roided out, painkiller using fighters that haven’t been checked by a doctor fighting people twice their size.

I’m not shedding any tears.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 29, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

only in a few cases, more fights than not were legit. Plus, i like the japanese rules. it encourages more exciting fights, with taking away elbows and adding knees on the ground. This means alot more transitioning and sub attempts, plus those are encouraged since they are awarded by the judges. Only rarely do u have lay n pray fights in japanese mma.

by zuffazombie on Nov 29, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I hate it when these hyped up UFC shows turn out to be boring and I think it has something to do with the unified rules and judging criteria. If Rampage vs Machida would have went down in Pride, it would have been epic. With yellow cards and judging that encourages going for the finish…WE ALL LOSE!

by zuffazombie on Nov 29, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

This card had so much promise to me.

But, that’s a result of getting sucked into the rumors. From Fedor’s group stating in August that he might fight on the card, to Barnett vs Overeem for the Dream HW title, to the now dead Melendez/Aoki II bout. I hope they put something special together so even if it goes down it goes down with a bang. Sad. Let’s hope World Victory Road can keep it together.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 2:05 PM EST reply actions  

This has been coming for years

It started with the yakuza story then there was Zuffa’s failure to keep PRIDE going and now FEG’s last ditch PUJI campaign has turned up sod all. This is a sad day for global MMA on the plus side if the UFC can eventually return to Japan with Cro Cop, Gomi, Big Nog etc maybe we can have a nice nostalgia show.

by MattParker117 on Nov 29, 2010 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

Japan seems to still have the fanbase to support mma – they still draw 10,000 a show and 10 million viewers when in primetime – they just don’t have the large viewership on TV or gate crowds that they had in the past. Without a different business structure that can compete with PPV – or a new massive breakout star – there is no way they can compete with the UFC or even Strikeforce in revenue or fighter pay. That’s the the never ending cycle they’ve found themselves in where more and more of the attractions jump to America meaning less interest and less money so more attractions go to America.

Theoretically Strikeforce could benefit from this. With Coker’s contacts he could negotiate something with FEG to take over Dreams spot and air 4 cards from Japan. It would financially beneficial for everyone because he could also air those on Showtime doubling his license fee. Unfortunately, the Japanese fight business is such a labyrinth of Yokuza-clan ties, no outsider is ever going to be able to jump into the business, no matter how much sense it makes. Perhaps the UFC, but they’d only succeed at a show at most per year. I don’t think they could do more then skim the surface of the lucrative Japanese market.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 2:42 PM EST reply actions  

Ishii’s star just didn’t rise fast enough. That first bout loss set him back so much.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s not signed to FEG.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 3:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yet, he just fought for them a few weeks ago and has been rumored to fight Mousasi on NYE.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

He was loaned to FEG by WVR because they can’t afford to put him on their cards.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL?

He’s signed to Sengoku. It’s very common knowledge. They don’t have fights for him and are farming him out. Started with his Dynamite debut against Yoshida last year.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Ishii is NOT signed to WVR any longer, his contract ran out.

He IS signed with FEG now.

by exzacht on Nov 29, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, maybe I spoke too soon. After his D.16 fight with Minowaman, he only had one fight left on his WVR deal. I assume that his fight at the MAX show either fulfilled his WVR contract, or he has a concurrent deal with FEG.

by exzacht on Nov 29, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

I was about to say this… It’s a weird situation, but it doesn’t change my point (that his initial successes or failures effectively had nothing to do with whether or not DREAM was successful over the last year).

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

And my point was his star just didn’t rise fast enough. He is gaining popularity with each fight in Japan and if he was further along you might be able to sell out a larger arena with Ishii against someone like Reem or Barnett in Japan. He has the most potential in JMMA today.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 7:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It’s amazing though that the ratings for the Shibata fight were so shitty. I guess just the shitty opponent.

by exzacht on Nov 29, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think the people are taking to him like they probably should, despite his loss to Yoshida. Maybe Japan just isn’t interested in finding the next big thing anymore. He doesn’t exactly have a “look” either, which seems important to their culture (Kid, Sapp).

I still think he can be great, just maybe not in Japan.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

He got torn apart by the crowd at K-1 Max. They thought it was a disgrace that he was fighting on a show he didn’t belong on.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

He was given permission by WVR to take other fights, and has signed one-fight contracts with FEG. Similar to Omigawa.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up. So if he indeed does have one fight left with WVR, what fight could they even do at this point with their depleted roster. Blagoi Ivanov?

by exzacht on Nov 29, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they’ll just let the time expire and not use him. He costs too much, and like you said, they don’t have a viable opponent for him.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

It's like their last remaining asset

Assuming he’s still under contract, they’re basically trying to control him even the least little bit as their last stand. Kinda sad, really.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

This is all sad.

The thought of not having a big JMMA promotion and possibly losing K-1 is fucking tearing apart my insides right now.

by exzacht on Nov 29, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

There’s only so many old tapes I can watch. If top-flight JMMA dies, it will be a terrible time.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m sort of with you on that. I hate and I mean hate the idea of Dream possibly folding. But it may clear the way for some thing healthier and more vibrant to spring up.

FEG has always had it’s foot on Sengikus head. But if Dream folds up then the Dream fans will likely migrate to SRC. That could make for a stronger promotion and maybe they can get some traction.. Or may some of the smaller orgs band together and make a run for the brass ring.

by fitefan on Nov 29, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Link?

Last anyone heard, he was threatening to go the US and fight Tito if he didn’t get an FEG contract.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Uh, that says he still has one more fight on his WVR contract.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

That is what I'm unclear on

Some reports say that his Minowa fight counted as the last fight. It’s unclear, but he didn’t sign a deal with FEG either way.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah sorry wasn’t trying to be a dick before, just wish things could be a little more clear with the dude. He’s such a fucking flake.

by exzacht on Nov 29, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

It's cool.

Well, it’s cool to me. Blackout is going to poop a rainbow on you.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah, I’m pretty sure he’s just free to fight in other places since he only has one fight left on his deal. The Minowa fight didn’t count towards his contract. I’m sure if he’s offered a long-term deal by another promotion, WVR will just let the time portion of their deal without using him. But he’s not signed to FEG.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

What I read at the time was poorly translated, but it seemed to clearly state that in getting permission some new clause was added. It’s possible that it means he can just book any fight anywhere with permission. Who knows..

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

He was "borrowed" on that fight

Sengoku, in being unable to pay his fee/schedule him to fight, agreed to add a clause in his deal that he could use his contracted fights elsewhere as long as they would be allowed to match.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Dynamite barely resembles its past glory as it is. It pains me to say it, but Japanese MMA isn’t currently viable and the fighters are being hurt by it, not helped by its existence. Time to pull the plug, Japan. Thanks for the good times.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 2:44 PM EST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

I somewhat disagree.

Not with the observation that is a shadow of its former self, but that it isn’t viable. Dream shows still draw around 10,000 a card, no matter how crappy. Sengoku drew 6-8 K last year. Dream still pulls in 10-12 million in Primetime. And that’s with the watered down cards they’ve been presenting.

The problem is that FEG needs huge returns to work, They apparently have massive debt. All the Japanese promotions are stuck in the catch-22 where the returns they get can’t afford to put together the cards they need to draw.

If a more financial stable and conservative promotion could come along and pair up – not just co-promote – with Strikeforce or work as a franchise to the UFC, I could see it succeeding. 4-6 solid cards a year with a much bigger portion of the revenue coming from oversees. They could then put the cards together that would capture the Japanese audiences imagination again, but not be completely dependent on TBS, Don Quixote, or a NYE show.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

10-12mm viewers in Primetime is more than Strikeforce or UFC have been able to find here in the US on CBS or Spike.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

yes, but if it’s not enough to survive it doesn’t matter.

Also, comparing network TV in Japan to network TV in the US to basic able in the US to premium cable in the US is like comparing apples to oranges to monkeys to basketballs.

Everything is completely different, and it’s time for people to stop ignoring the writing in the wall and acting like everything is going to be ok.

by Phildo on Nov 29, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not comparing US to Japanese TV (although they are not too dissimilar). I’m making the point that there is still interest in MMA, there is just no direction from the companies in Japan like there was in the past to turn that interest into bigger gates.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Different culture with different viewing habits and completely different business models. Lets face it the whole network pay for tv content model doesn’t work for MMA unless you can generate huge ratings numbers on a regular basis and the PPV market in Japan is just not at that level. You just can’t do MMA at the current level on a single revenue stream from putting a product on network tv.

Japanese pro wrestling has historically had better ratings and live gates than US pro wrestling too but the WWE just plain makes more money and even in their current downturn they are much more financially stable. PPV buys and merchandising fill the coffers not just licensing fees from tv networks.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but NJPW isn’t going anywhere. They have a direction and have maintained their fanbase over the years. They don’t need to be the WWE, they do fine as who they are. The MMA orgs in Japan have not been able to do that since the Pride days. There is interest, just not a devoted following to get them into the arenas and K-1 will put on their GP in its smallest venue in ages.

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That is the real qestion, is the interest in MMA or seeing big stars like Bob Sapp in off the wall fights against other big names from Japan? The interest doesn’t seem to be in the sport but in seeing guys like Ishii and Kid fight on tv(and even that is fading pretty hard). What is the actual level of interest in the sport of MMA as opposed to interest into the spectacle of big NYE shows like Dynamite?

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems that since their TV model is flipped that thu rely on big gates to keep profitable. They are getting the viewers but they aren’t filling up Saitama like their predecessors did. I checked to see where NJPW’s next event is and it’s in the TokoyoDome. While K-1 has had to move to smaller and smaller arenas for the GP. It seems they can get fans to watch on TV as the DREAM ratings show, but can’t get them to come out live. I think, just my opinion, that is because there is a lack of cohesiveness in their matchmaking. We are weeks away from Dynamite and every rumored bout has fallen thru. How do you sell tickets for it?

by memitim on Nov 29, 2010 7:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Japanese orgs have always been shady and last minute on the booking but for this one Dream can’t even come up with a list of fighters that will be on the card, more/less actual matches. That scares me more than any of the other rumors, it’s starting to look like they may not even get a show together in time.

Long term I just don’t think the audience is there for “real” MMA on a network level and it doesn’t even look like it’s big enough for spectacle MMA to survive either. The future is with the smaller organization working with smaller audiences and smaller expectations.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

That's just plain wrong

Without either of us knowing what the exact financial picture is, we know for certain that fighters aren’t getting fights OR paid and that DREAM is desperate for financial backing. They haven’t spiraled into financial hell over nothing, and you’re inferring this is the same road paved with gold that had been there all along.

TBS wouldn’t consider making them pay to air if viewer interest and profitability were existent. They don’t share FEG’s debts.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 3:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think you are misreading what I wrote

I wrote that there is still an audience in Japan so that we shouldn’t completely write it off. The problem is that the way the industry is built they need huge returns from TV to succeed. The numbers they get aren’t big enough to pay for the cards they need to put together to get those cards. Throw in the fact that FEG has piled up massive debt and its a disaster.

Japanese MMA still has an audience they just can’t finance it on their own anymore.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The writing really is on the wall for FEG

#1, holding back to back events in seoul. They booked out a place for 2 events and both drew very, very poorly (something like 6k for a 12k venue).
#2. dream fighters (and even champions) not getting paid for months and months.
#3. extremely weak matchmaking. The last MAX final didnt even have any superfights, which I dont think has ever happened before.

  1. downgrading of venues, FEG hasnt been able to book the tokyo dome for at least 3-4 years now for the K-1 final.

FEG is broke, and their admission that in the last few years they basically coasted on the money TBS gave them for Dynamite! means that if they dont get it this year, we can probably say bye bye to DREAM and K-1.

by destructivist on Nov 29, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The Japanese MMA audience is casual enough for the most part that they won’t pay for the product but that’s about the only way for it to survive. This model just doesn’t work unless the shows are big time events and that just doesn’t happen in Japan unless you have a big time star and in Japan those tend to be freakshow fights; people tune in to watch Bob Sapp fight sumo wrestlers or stand up commedians or cartoon characters but they don’t always stick around to watch the actual mma fighters fight nor would they actually pay to watch those guys on tv. You have to wonder just how many of those people only watch it because it’s on network tv.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

The Japanese MMA audience is casual enough for the most part that they won’t pay for the product but that’s about the only way for it to survive.

That about sums it up. Although I think there’s evidence that there is some kind of serious fan. Look at Dream 12, it drew a 12.9 share on TV (13 million or so) with a card that didn’t have a freakshow or heartthrob. They also draw 2 or 3 million for middle of the night broadcasts and paying gates of 10,000 plus. All they’re missing is step 3: profit.

That and don’t run up massive debt.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

MMA in Japan isn’t going to go away but I think we can all agree that it isn’t going to be what it used to be. Obviously the UFC will try to move in but Strikeforce may want to consider getting a new partner (if FEG goes away like it seems it may)and sticking it’s foot in the water there too. Still you are talking about cleaning the slate and starting back at the bottom again and not trying to recapture what Dream was(that was trying to recapture Pride). WVR seems to be taking the smarter route with smaller shows and smaller expectations and just trying to keep their head above water and building a bit of momentum(sort of like pre-Showtime Strikeforce).

I do wonder what is going to happen with K-1 kickboxing. Dream was always sort of been a disappointment compare to Pride but K-1 always seemed to be MMA’s bigger and more stable brother.

That and don’t run up massive debt

Organizations like the Yakuza don’t care about thinks like long term stability and measured growth, they are in it to suck all the money out of it they can. Obviously the future of the sport in Japan will involve trying to marginalize criminal influence.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

There definitely going to have to take a step back before they take a step forward. There also going to have to think of new ways to generate revenue besides being dependent on sponsors and TV.

The Dream/K-1/FEG disaster is a great cautionary tale for American MMA fans. Dream has collapsed because their source of revenue has collapsed. Doesn’t matter that they can still draw, they just cant generate the profits to pay off their debt. What happens with the UFC if the ppv market dries up? It’s Kid Nate’s Armageddon come to fruition.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing’s guaranteed, it could all end up a fad in the US too or legislation and popular opinion could turn against the violence of it all. Nothing is secure but at least the UFC has been exploring multiple income streams and building a foundation. For that matter Strikeforce has done a better job than FEG has too.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Not at all

You’re arguing that the market is viable.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 4:54 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Time to pull the plug

when there is still a sizable audience? Wouldn’t it be better to try maybe looking into a new way of doing business? Such as not spending like drunken sailors or depending solely on TV revenue?

Japan’s mma market is down, no doubt. But its biggest problem is that they haven’t found a way to monetize what they still have. Having been there and having a few from the islands, I know the general publics interest in mma is stronger than it is in the US. They just need to find a better way to make money of it.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

You're such a sympathizer

You have no evidence that they can be profitable in this market. You’re just being a needless devil’s advocate. If you’re going to take task with something that is self-evident, at least come well prepared.

I love Japanese MMA, but it’s not working. Period.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you bother to read my comments or do you merely go into rebuttal mode. It isn’t viable? Drawing 10,000 plus fans and 10-13 million viewers with subpar cards must mean there is no fanbase right? That the Japanese have abandoned mma completely, right? Or is it that FEG has no real interest in DREAM and are as fiscally responsible as Bernie Madoff?

Go to Japan and I bet you’ll still find more “casuals” on the street that follow mma then you would here in the US.Someone besides Dream – as much as I loved their production – would be a great step in the right direction.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you know what viable means?

This is ridiculous. I can give t-shirts away until my bank account runs out and people will take them, but can I sell the same apparel?

I thought you owned a business. If ifs and buts were candies and nuts….

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll let you know I run it poorly.

You don’t think FEG or DSE’s shitty business deals have anything to do with the current predicament? You don’t think a more fiscally responsible company could be surviving instead of one that spent millions over the years on some non-existent expansion plan and was dependent on big TV paydays to stay afloat?

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems nearly impossible right now

And I’m of course talking about DREAM and Sengoku, being the two big dogs (if you can still call them that) in Japan.

Someone will undoubtedly try again, but not now. It’s just a bad time. Maybe Japan needs a break. Distance makes the heart grow fonder.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

The children always cry when we're fighting.

I think JMMA is going to have to take a step back and try and rethink their business mode. The audience is there. There is money there, just not as much as they’re used to. I just hope someone can step up to the plate and eventually resurrect it because it will have died for no reason but incompetence otherwise.

Still, the idea of K-1 going under makes me sadder. If think they have a harder road back than MMA.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

K-1 going down would be sacrilege. I think they will always find a way to keep it alive.

People think I’m crazy to believe this, but I think that Zuffa will make some good money in Japan, starting as soon as late 2011. Not a permanent presence, but an annual show would be ripe for the picking with the demise of SRC and/or DREAM. If they play their cards right, they could gradually increase their presence there. It starts with a toothbrush, you know?

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't go with crazy

But it’s a very, very tough proposition. They just don’t understand how the Japanese run business. And they’re too stubborn to co-promote, so it’ll be tough to make a go of it on their own.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s why I believe plunking in and out could benefit them.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

How do they even get in once though?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean, some of you guys talk about it like it's North Korea

WWE does business in Japan. Bands tour there constantly.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

WWE doesn’t run Japan. They took a beating there and pulled out. And that was with a co-promoter, I believe. Bands use a local promoter most of the time. It’s a different game. It’s certainly not North Korea, but you’re talking about a company that refuses to give up any control of anything.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually I take that back. WWE is running Japan again. I’d be curious to see how. I might have to check out some back issues of the Observer or something.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

Saw that, too. Has a lot to do with why I mention it. I don’t know— I think the UFC would expect to lose money at least once or twice in Japan to make it worth their while. I mean, they’re losing money in England and that doesn’t bother them. They’re willing to put in the work.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I think there is a huge issue with getting stadiums in Japan without the contacts. But if they could, a card with BJ vs Gomi, Okami vs Silva, Akiyama vs Wandy, and Big Nog vs Cro Cop could be a big hit.

I think Strikeforce makes more sense, but Coker has got his hands too full in the US to take advantage of it,

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t agree that Strikeforce makes more sense, particularly because they seemingly still owe FEG a few favors. Maybe if they invited them in to co-promote, but they wouldn’t be reaping the benefits the way Zuffa would if they were to come in and put on a big production.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right that the UFC would profit more. They could come in book the Tokyo Dome and make millions off the gate and Japanese TV (if they could cut a deal). They’d lose on domestic ppv so I don’t know if they’d make that big of killing. And it would be a one-time thing.

For Strikeforce, they would definitely have to co-promote. If they teamed up with WVR or took over Dream’s spot for FEG, the could book 4 shows a year in Japan. The local promoter would handle the venue, the prelims and half the main card. Thus, Strikeforce could get a license fee from Showtime – which isn’t dependent on live broadcast – at half the normal labor cost, the local promoter would get some free a-level fighters, and Showtime would get a better card than they’d normally get for their money.

Unfortunately Coker is in no position to even worry about Japanese expansion.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The idea of SF running four shows in Japan is way further fetched than Zuffa doing the same

I mean, they have enough trouble putting on double digits in the US as it is. I just don’t see that as a possibility.

And I hope that by the time Zuffa enters Japan that they learn their lesson about doing international PPV and airing it LIVE. I think that’s gotta happen soon.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

For Strikeforce it would be incedibily easy if they didn’t have their hands full doing basic stuff like trying to get guys to fight or answer texts from other promoters. All they’d have to do is send six fighters over that the Japanese promotion wanted and their announcing crew, slap their name on it, and they’d have a Strikeforce event from Japan.

For the UFC, a live ppv and a 17 hour time difference means they go from 500 k or 600 k with BJ and Silva down to 350,000. Do they make up that $10 mil with the Japanese audience? Maybe they make it back by getting the Japanese market to buy more UFC events. I don’t see the Japanese fans as accepting as a UK or German crowd with regards to second tier shows, so I don’t think they can cut costs to make it work.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the UFC can do early shows to make the US time more appealing. Foreign cultures seem generally more accepting of that.

Alternatively, they should do a “buy live” option for Spike Per Views.

Also…. I think a Japanese MMA card is inherently more attractive than a British/German/Australian one. Just like Brazil will be.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh

And there’s no way I’d expect them to do a second tier show.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

One thing Strikeforce and the UFC have over FEG here is that they aren’t dependant on the Japanese market to make the money back, they can lose money in Japan and still make money by airing the show in the US too (much like the UFC does with British shows). Obviously the time difference will be an even bigger issue in Asia but the extra income streams are there. Heck there may be more of an opening to just get UFC and/or Strikeforce programming on Japanese tv without actually having to barrel into Japan headfirst.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re comparing it to how the US views it and thinking it’s profitable because of the numbers they’re drawing. Unfortunately, it’s not an apples to apples comparison. 10k and 10 million viewers is not a profitable venture in Japan. This has been proven by the failure of Dream and (mostly) WVR as well.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not saying they’re profitable. I’m saying there is still an audience there. I discussed it up above, any new major Japanese promotion is going to have to work with an American promotion if they want to do the big shows. If Dream disappears WVR might not struggle as much but they’ll need another major source of revenue to besides domestic to succeed as a major promotion. There isn’t enough money in Japan right now to do the Dream type shows.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

They need the Yakuza. Straight up. I’m not sure MMA was ever a profitable venture in Japan without the underbelly of corruption.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

No one believes me when I tell them you can’t have any MMA (or basically any business) in Japan without Yakuza influence. It’s like trying to do business in Naples without having to deal with the Camorra – it doesn’t happen. You still can try and set it up that they don’t siphon too much out.

by John Nash on Nov 29, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s such a weird system. When the system is in place, it’s totally obvious to everyone. It works for most people. The general public absolutely knows what’s going on. But…when it goes “public”, THE HORROR! We can’t deal with that! Even though we all knew about it all along!

I’ll never understand the Japanese system.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I know this isn’t what you’re talking about, but MMA isn’t dead or dying in Japan. It’s only hurting at the largest stages. All the smaller promotions that have been the workhorses of the industry (Shooto, DEEP, etc) are doing just fine without all the pomp and circumstance that’s come to define big-time MMA in Japan. I still hold out hope that bare bones, legit MMA will be able to grow into something the average Japanese wants to see. The separation from pro-wrestling theatrics will be painful, but I think it has a chance to resurface as a viable TV product. WVR is doing it right. Shooto is doing it right. FEG is doing it wrong.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 29, 2010 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Shooto will never go away because they have an intelligent business model, predicated on promoting more modest cards. My tearful farewell (at least, for the foreseeable future) is to Japanese mega-MMA cards.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 29, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Shooto is just “mostly” MMA but it’s still different. They have also found a way to keep going since the 1980’s so they must be doing something right.

by who me on Nov 29, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I heard FEG will pay TBS to broadcast

I wouldn’t say this is the very end of Japanese MMA but it seems like the end is coming.

Nothing but RESPECT for Matt "The Terror" Serra
http://gotmma.org/ - Korean MMA blog

by DK_Monster on Nov 29, 2010 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Nov 29, 2010 6:07 PM EST reply actions  

seriously

where do you get all these gifs?

Nothing but RESPECT for Matt "The Terror" Serra
http://gotmma.org/ - Korean MMA blog

by DK_Monster on Nov 29, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Teh Interwebz

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Nov 29, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Japan is kakutougi country.

Whether Dream & K-1 rises and falls, there are tens of thousands of fighters and millions of fans.
MMA will not disappear. This is a transitionary period.

Be water, my friend.
http://www.scramblestuff.com (Imported Japanese MMA goods!)
http://www.thegrapplingdummy.com (my Blog)

by Martial Farts on Nov 30, 2010 4:11 AM EST reply actions  

Exactly

This is what I’ve been arguing the whole time. People act as if Japan has completely abandoned the sport. The fans are still there – more so than even in the US – it’s the promotions and their business models that have fallen apart. Sougou kakutougi is not dead yet.

by John Nash on Nov 30, 2010 10:21 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I stated basically the same. It’s a matter of whether top-flight MMA has a place in Japan anymore.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 30, 2010 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm tired of this kind of articles

Nothing against Kid Nate, I appreciate what you’re bringing, but it’s been years since I started reading “omg Japanese is gonna soon die !!!”. And they are still here. Talk about the fights instead.

by Omigawa on Nov 30, 2010 9:44 AM EST reply actions  

This is a serious situation that’s definitely newsworthy man. Dynamite’s never been in trouble like this before, it’s obvious from the article. I respect the idea that the media cries wolf about the demise of JMMA sometimes, but this is legit.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 30, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

People were saying similar things about Pride right up to the point where it did die, FEG being in trouble and the very important Dynamite show being questionable are big issues for two sports. Just because you are tired of reading it doesn’t mean that this isn’t newsworthy. Japanese MMA may not be dying completely but that doesn’t mean that the biggest MMA companies there dying isn’t very important news in the sport. Heck for a fan in the US without Dream on HDnet our access to fights from Japan will be seriously limited to the point of it might as well be dead.

by who me on Nov 30, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

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