UFC Referee Herb Dean Working to Improve the Sport
by Nate Wilcox on Nov 29, 2010 3:48 PM EST
in UFC News
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Until he left the Octagon in December of 2007 for a brief career as a broadcaster, "Big" John McCarthy was unquestionably MMA's alpha referee. "Big" John McCarthy wasn't the first man to ever ref a UFC bout, but by the end of his tenure he was a universally admired authority on the rules of the sport and how to enforce them.
But once McCarthy left the Octagon amidst a flurry of controversy around his role in a proposed set of changes to the unified rules and some ill-advised criticisms of the Nevada State Athletic Commission and the UFC, there hasn't been a leading referee.
Now it looks like Herb Dean is making moves to claim the mantle. Kevin Iole talks to Dana White's favorite ref about his efforts to train better MMA umpires:
A former fighter with a black belt in jiu-jitsu and a 2-3 pro-MMA record, Dean has begun a school to train referees and judges, the MMA Referee School, in Pasadena, Calif.
The school is certified by the Association of Boxing Commissions and recently graduated its first class. The second session will be held Jan. 8 in Pasadena, Calif.
"The sport is growing and there are so many fight cards being held all over the place and there is always a need for additional good officials," said Dean, who was trained to officiate by Larry Landless and began refereeing in 1999 in King of the Cage. "There's no such thing as too many good officials and even the officials who are currently working need to consistently work to make sure they're up to date with the techniques that are being used."
Thanks Herb, every little bit of effort to improve the officiating of MMA helps.
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I thought
BJM didn’t come in to ref UFC’s until UFC 2.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Sorry
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
The most heard phrase at Herb's school
“Come on, guys. Let’s work!”
"A lot of people in this country still believe that he who has the most things when he dies, wins. Well, you're dead fucknut. So, you didn't win." - Lewis Black
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 29, 2010 3:52 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Herb is kind of behind the boat a little....
Big John already has his own Ref school. So do a lot of other Refs. I know a Ref out here in Boston that does the same thing.
Big Johns http://www.mmareferee.com/
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High-five Herb.
I think Herb is probably the best ref in the biz now, but sometimes I think he stands up/separated guys too quickly. Sometimes. But it’s all good.
"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki
agreed
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"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Nov 29, 2010 4:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Herb Dean
has made his share of mistakes too. Hard to be perfect in this business. I still think Big John does the best.
www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Nov 29, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry, buddy. Not anymore. Big John seems to have lost it. He seems to be making a lot of bad decisions lately.
It kills me to say that.
"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki
Mario "Finish him!" Yamasaki?
Heh, nah. He does make some miscues when stopping fights, but overall he’s one of the best. Top three, probably.
"Who are you and how the hell did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith... and i'm a locksmith."
You mean early stoppage rosenthal?
People started giving him props for not stopping the Carwin-Lesnar fight but generally yea….not a good look. Way too jumpy.
BIG NOG for Life
One Step closer to Gleison Tibau @ 145
If the round is too close, it's 10-10, NOT flip a coin 10-9 or late takedown FTW.
by NNR (formerly NameNotRequired) on Nov 29, 2010 5:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I disagree
Rosenthal is in the top three IMO. Guy’s been making nothing but good calls lately. Absolutely one of the best out there.
Redding is definitely a thankless job
Herb Dean doesn’t get the credit he deserves.
by KenCanFightBear on Nov 29, 2010 4:01 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Probably because he does a good job that we don’t really notice. Everyone knows Mills Lane from boxing but no one knows Kenny Bayless or Joe Cortez. No one notices you until you botch up a call like Ed Hochuli
Kenny Bayless has reffed some very high profile fights.
I rarely watch any boxing and I know who he is. He has a very distinctive movement and style of reffing.
Hochuli probably isn’t the right example. Everyone has always known who he is.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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herp.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not. | SB Nation Bay Area
Good for Herb Dean, and while this isn’t much, it does help MMA. Dean has had his share of bad calls, but it isn’t a consistent thing with him unlike some other refs out there, and they are few and far between. Also, it’s really funny/strange to me how popular some MMA referees are.
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IMHO, the easiest, quickest, and most painless “fix” for the judging (not reffing) problems MMA continues to face is to make it a requirement that a prerequisite for certification to judge pro MMA bouts is a minimum rank of purple belt in BJJ. most of these judges are clueless about the ground game; to them, having top position always means you’re winning, which anyone who’s trained bjj knows isn’t true. besides, I’ve never met an avid bjj enthusiast who wasn’t also a rabid mma fan. one cannot help but become familiar with MMA when immersed in bjj culture.
You would eliminate a lot of potentially good judges with this approach. It would make more sense to require MMA fighting experience, but even this is going to credit some bad judges and eliminate some good ones. Achieving a BJJ purple belt is a lengthy and expensive process. Plus there will be many judges who can’t train for some physical reason. What is needed is a specific body of knowledge and standards that judges will be expected to master. If one of the major boxing commissions assembled a group of people to define those standards and then tested judges on their knowledge of them, other states would follow. What obviously isn’t enough is agreeing on the wording of the rules and then pretending that all judges will understand them, and will understand them the same way.
by Finian1 on Nov 29, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
this approach wouldn’t eliminate a single good judge. in fact, once the crappy judges are no longer qualified per this new rule, what would happen is you’d have an influx of bjj purple, brown, and black belts get certified to judge and just like that we’d have quality mma judges. the free market would quickly and efficiently take care of any sort of temporary shortage of judges caused by my new rule.
requiring mma fighting experience isn’t the best fix. trust me, I’ve reffed and judged plenty of mma cards (all amateur) before, and I would implore you to believe me that not all mma fighters know much about mma fighting. if you want the requirement to be that the judge has PRO mma fighting experience, you run into a littany of other problems. on its face it sounds like a good idea, but what you would find is that it would be hard to find a completely objective, unbiased judge who doesn’t have a stake in the outcome of the fight. most pro mma fighters don’t fight a few times and then walk away from the sport. they stay involved with their teams, their camps, and their training partners…many of whom still fight. I’m sure you can see the conflict of interest here.
who cares if the judges “can’t train for some physical reason”. these are precisely the kinds of people we don’t want judging!! that’s the whole point! if you can’t train for some physical reason, then you probably don’t know much about what it’s like to be in certain positions, their inherent advantages and/or dangers, the degree of skill required to get into those positions, etc.
you said it yourself: “a specific body of knowledge and standards that judges will be expected to master”. EXACTLY RIGHT. it’s called: at least a purple belt.
pro fighters have too much on the line and train way too hard to be judged by dummies who don’t know what half of the mma game is about.
by Rexx Goliath on Nov 29, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
i like this idea
but it seems like there should also be some minimum level of kickboxing, wrestling, and possibly judo training as well. Kickboxing: to understand damage from things such as jabs and leg kicks (everyone understands power shots). Wrestling: I’m not a top-control fan, but a lot of people who are think it demonstrates a lot of skill. Judo: how hard are those throws to pull off? How much damage does a throw inflict?
BJJ isn’t the only art that I think judges should have to understand. I also agree with the previous poster that training all of this stuff may be too intense and time-consuming to be practical. And someone who, say, has a heart condition may well be able to get a decent understanding from seminars specifically for judges that explain more about what’s happening.
Use more judges.
Here's another problem with this idea
If you’re going to impose a BJJ purple belt requirement for qualified referees, you’ve also got to find a way to regulate what qualifies as a legitimate purple belt. Are you going to have a list of “approved” schools that are certified? What if it’s a foreign purple belt? It’d be a logistical nightmare.
Now someone needs to start up a MMA JUDGING school...
And book Cecil Peoples for the first class.
by BKdroid on Nov 29, 2010 4:22 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Don't call him a UFC referee
He’s a referee. The UFC doesn’t have referees. The athletic commission do.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 29, 2010 4:25 PM EST reply actions
- does
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 29, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
UFC is in the title for search engine hits.
It isn’t entirely inaccurate to call him a UFC referee since he does referee for them.
When a ball goes into a net, it only means something because we decide it means something. When somebody punches somebody in the face it always means something.
by lowellthehammer on Nov 29, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Damn you, SEO
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 29, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
also, I don’t think it’s accurate to call Herb Dean “UFC Referee Herb Dean”. the referees are assigned and controlled by the athletic commissions, not the promoters. Herb Dean was reffing on Affliction cards if I remember correctly (which I’m sure Dana White was none too happy about), and I’m quite certain he was reffing on the PRIDE cards that were held in the States before the UFC’s acquisition. he reffed the Frank Shamrock vs Renzo Gracie fight…the list goes on.
I must be in the minority
I think Josh Rosenthal is the best. No ref will ever be perfect, it’s just not possible.
Herb Dean for President!
I would LOVE to see one of his pro bouts just to say i’ve watched one of his fights.
First person to link a Herb fight gets to make a sig for me.
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
http://www.mmatko.com/herb-deans-first-pro-mma-fight-against-randy-halmot-video/
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
Your vid don't work!
I win. ;)
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
I’m thinking for the sig:
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
Ok, since you were both close I’ll let you both create a sig.
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Awe man you didn’t have to do that. Now when you make an argument no one will take you seriously. :)
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
When i’m stoned, (which I am always when i’m on here, basically always) you should never take me seriously.
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Your a stoner?!?!?!
I never would have guessed mr. 420 ;)
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
Shit
my ways have been revealed..
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
Ha I’m only on here when I’m at work (high 10% of the time) :(
But I do like to get relaxed when I get home
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
Getting high is my occupation, & I take my job very seriously.
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Herb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKQL9SdHiaU
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 29, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was first!!! GODDAMNIT!!!
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
Rollo you win, good try though Day.
Now bless me with your creative wordings for a sig Rollo!
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Damnit! My Sig is waaaaay better than anything Rollo can come up with
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
Done. Your turn Rollo.
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
I say leave it.
Don Frye is perfection.
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 29, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, i’ll throw the Frye sig back in.
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Done
Best Fighters: 1.Brock Lesnar 2.Nate Diaz 3.Tito Ortiz 4.Tank Abbot 5.Jamie Varner
Best Camps: 1.Team Punishment 2.Death Clutch 3.Cesar Gracie
Dana White is the MAN!!! He should fire more wrestlers!
I'm Don Frye and you're not - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Nov 29, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, it only took 16 years!
Not bad.
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
herb "scrunchee" dean
he is the man, but someone please tell him to just use a regular hair band. srsly.
Maybe they work for his dreads better
I imagine those other kind might be painful.
or maybe you just can’t appreciate his style. Scrunch on Herb, scrunch on.
www.ninjasplace.com
by Urijah Bieber on Nov 29, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
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