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Judo Chop: Phil Davis Invents a Hammerlock Variation Called the 'Mr Wonderful'

Phil Davis forces Tim Boetsch to submit with a modified hammerlock Joe Rogan called the "Mr. Wonderful". Photo by Esther Lin for MMA Fighting.

No one who's been paying attention to his career should be surprised at how well Phil Davis is doing in the UFC. Before he entered MMA he was the 2008 NCAA division 1 wrestling national champion. Before he entered the UFC he went 4-0 with one TKO and two submissions. 

It's obvious just from seeing Phil Davis flex at the weigh ins that this is a rare physical specimen. But the thing that has those of us who really fiend for fine MMA technique pump is neither Davis' wrestling pedigree nor his athletic gifts. No, it's the way Phil Davis has dived deep into BJJ and submission grappling that makes him a very special talent and one who promises to accomplish great things while also advancing the sport as a whole.

Davis described the way he approaches training MMA to Dan Stupp before his bout with Tim Boetsch at UFC 123

"When you go from a sport where you know what you're doing and beyond that can kind of use your imagination to make things happen where they probably shouldn't and then you go to a sport like MMA where you're not good at all and you leave the gym and you haven't landed a punch or a takedown because you're busy getting punched it's just hard to deal with, to go from a high level of precisionary to the very bottom and staying positive everyday."
...
"It took a little while," he said of his MMA progression. "Once I started getting comfortable, I worked with a new group of much better guys, and it's just gotten worse. I'm never really comfortable. I work with a good group of strikers back home in San Diego at Alliance, and everyone once in a while, I'll train for three or four months on end at AKA in San Jose, and they have a quality team there of strikers and grapplers. I'm never really comfortable. I'm always learning, constantly."

That's an amazing amount of humility for someone who already has mastered one of the most demanding aspects of the martial arts. Think about it, an NCAA 1 national champion has easily mastered as much information as any black belt and yet he's coming to the gym everyday with the attitude of a white belt. 

Sure he's got a great deal to learn about the game, especially the striking aspects, but he has already shown a real knack for combining jiu jitsu with his wrestling. In fact I'd go as far as to say that Davis is very near the state-of-the-art for a wrestle-grappler.

The definitive example of a wrestler-grappler is currently Jake Shields, although Matt Hughes is probably the pioneer of that style of MMA. Davis' is likely well-ahead of Ben Askren. See this post on Askren for more of my thoughts on wrestler-grapplers. Also see Jonathan Snowden's post about the approaches to MMA taken by amateur wrestlers (thanks to BE reader lowellthehammer for finding that link).

So it should have come as no surprise to see Phil Davis pull off a very sweet hammerlock variation on Tim Boetsch. Announcer Joe Rogan had no idea what to call it so he named it the "Mr Wonderful. I think Mr Wonderful is a perfectly good name for the hold but I understand while many observers with a wrestling background were screaming at the screen since hammerlock is the term used in amateur and submission wrestling for any hold that twists the arm back that way. 

In the full entry we'll hear from Phil Davis' BJJ trainer Lloyd Irvin, Jake Shannon of Scientific WrestlingCage Side Seats' K.J. Gould and Watch Kalib Run's S.C. Michaelson and we'll look at some gifs. 

Ufc_123_event_button_medium

Star-divide

Animated gifs by Grappo

Phil Davis' BJJ coach Lloyd Irvin sent out the following email to his list:

Well in our school we call it "The One Arm Bandit" now known Worldwide as "The Mr. Wonderful".

I first started doing this back in 1997 when I was madly in love with the Kimura. I'm a true believer in finding ways to make moves that people say can't work. Conceptually this is a old school 'chicken wing' what we used to do in grade school.

I have a complete arsenal of weird moves most people think won't work in real life but they do but unless you prove it you'll never convince the population.

I have my guys on video doing this move in competition and when I first showed Phil this move he fell in love with it. If you look at his last fight against Rodney Wallace you can see Phil going for this move over and over and over, plus you can hear me tell him to avoid other logical movements to go for this. Why?

Because I promised him that if he pulled this off in the UFC he would win submission of the night and he promised that he would show the World my move and do it in the UFC.

Well he did and won $80K because of it.

I asked Jake Shannon of Scientific Wrestling to comment on the submission and here's what he had to say:

It's disappointing to see modern MMA commentators struggle to identify a common technique only because it isn't a part of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu lexicon. Even a decent junior high-school wrestler will recognize the hammerlock from a mile away.

It's a great maneuver in itself, especially for submission as Phil Davis has most recently demonstrated, and was so memorably shown by Sakuraba against both Renzo and Royler Gracie. It's also great as a set up to pinning techniques, like the double bar arm.

The main difference between Davis' hammerlock and Sakuraba's double wristlock is not the position of the person being submitted but the position of the person applying the submission.

When you compare the two, you can see that the anatomy of the loser is similar: the arm is bent at a 90 degree angle behind the back and the wrist is push away from the back, applying pressure and pain to the shoulder. It's mostly different in the way it's applied by the winner.

I suppose the most disappointing thing about the lack of care shown by most modern English-speaking MMA commentators is that there is a rich lexicon of grappling terms available from the English-born catch-as-catch-can tradition. I've included photos, many that predate the birth of Helio Gracie, showing the very move that Davis won with at the last UFC.

The last thing I want to do is drag the whole nomenclature debate into this post but Shannon does have a valid point. Rogan trains BJJ with Eddie Bravo which means he's more informed about the terminology of a somewhat eccentric subset of one grappling community (BJJ) but there are other communities who have different terms and I think it would be cool if Rogan learned more wrestling terminology. If Rogan and Bravo weren't actively dismissive of catch wrestling as a valid style there would be much less animosity coming back at them from the catch guys.

Here's K.J. Gould and S.C Michaelson to walk us through the gifs and add their own takes to the nomenclature debate:

Gould: It's a type of Hammerlock. It's also maddening to hear a lot of people butcher the name and call it everything but what it is (but that's an aside).

Davis1255251_mediumIf we just go straight wrestling (and not exclusively Catch) Davis started with a Double Wrist Lock. People often wonder as there's a Double Wrist Lock. if there's a Single Wrist Lock and the answer is yes. Often names in wrestling refer to the grip or method of control, so Davis switched from a DWL to a SWL. In wrestling the names of moves often refer to the grip used rather than the joint being worked.

Michaelson: Forget the "Mr. Wonderful", that move was called the Pistol Grip. First thing you'll notice is that it will be hard for Davis to get a traditional kimura because Boestch is too close to the cage. There doesn't appear to be room enough for Davis to bring his free horse leg and step over Tim. Another thing starting off Phil didn't have the arm of Tim flexed at that right angle, so that when he applied the grip, Tim's arm wouldn't unfold (which it did). Also, while you're applying the grip, you need to post up and put some space between your bodies to make it easy to make Boestch as perpendicular to the floor as possible. But enough about what didn't happen, let's talk about what DID.

Davis2240234_mediumMichaelson: It's clear that Davis realizes he won't be able to get a traditional kimura on Boestch for all of the obvious reasons.because at one point Davis pulls his trapped leg out of half-guard and mounts Boestch (which barring massive upper body strength from Davis, won't finish the sub). He chicken wings the "kimura" arm with one hand (a la BobBacklund) which shows incredible strength as he is doing a bicep contraction against Boestch's tricep contraction in trying to control the arm and we all know the tricep is the stronger muscle..While doing this, he snakes his right arm in-between Tim's legs and just rolls him off his back and makes him perpendicular to the ground. This allows Davis the chance to wretch around there and grab his other arm (still controlling Boestch's arm) in the proper kimura grip and pull. PISTOL GRIP.

Gould: S.C. has said the next part requires a lot of power but it's actually technique and leverage. Davis uses his weight to pin Boetsch's arm to the mat, moves to side control and uses a cradle to over rotate the hips which causes Boetsch to turn and moves the pinned arm up his back to a Hammerlock position. The cradle did all the work and doesn't require a great deal of strength.

With one arm over Boetsch's shoulder holding the Hammerlock, Davis snakes his other arm under Boetsch's waist and shuffles to get a second grip. Based on his position it's too akward for Davis to get a figure-4 frame up so he would have to double grip and pull the arm up and away to get the tap.

Davis3220215_mediumMichaelson: How could Tim not get caught up? Simple, don't sign to fight Phil Davis. But seriously, Boestch's fatal mistake was posting up with his right arm while Phil had the left one locked up at the beginning of the kimura attempt. By doing that, he allowed Davis the space to chicken wing his arm behind his back. If he doesn't do that, Phil isn't going to be able to finish the kimura. Like I said, he didn't have the space to get his big horse leg over Boestch's head to isolate the arm nor was the arm bent enough of a degree to try and put pressure on the shoulder to create space to get the arm under. Phil would've either a) continued to try the kimura and likely fail, b) attempt a straight armbar and fail because Boestch's arm wasn't turned in the right way to get the fulcrum in the right spot, or c) use that distraction to escape half guard and get into side control or mount.

Boestch's second error was Tim allowed his free arm to be too latent. I mean it just sat there and did nothing. When Davis snaked his legs and hoisted him like a father does his son, Boestch should've stopped rubbing Phil's lower back and gotten his arm to his right side to at least try and keep Phil from using his second arm to grip the kimura. Or punch Phil in the ribs and claim a moral victory. Something.

Gould: Hammerlocks are still used in amateur wrestling today as it's a great assist to getting a pin. Because of this usually the guy isn't already on his back, but with no pins in MMA you can adapt it like Davis has done. In Am. Wrestling as long as you're not over torquing the shoulder it's ok to use (similarly to DWLs and Top Wrist Locks.)

Here's some Catch legends showing variations of the Hammerlock from Gnarlmaster's Catchwrestling (thanks to K.J. and Jake who both sent them along):

George Hackenschmidt-- "Arm up the back with a bar (a Forbidden Hold)"

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Hackenschmidt -- "Hammerlock with the bar on (now a prohibited hold)"

B5q205556942_medium

Below is Earle Liederman as taught in The Science of Wrestling and the Art of Ju Jitsu:

Hammer Lock and Half Nelson

B5q205556950_medium

Jake Shannon sent along this video of the hammerlock being used to secure a pin in an amateur wrestling match:


 

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that move kept it really real!!!!

I am gonna use this alot!!!

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Nov 23, 2010 3:03 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

i doubt it, that submission relied more on athletic ability than technique, very unlikely u could do that to a stronger, heavier opponent

that was a mark coleman stlye submission, he just grabbed ahold of something and kept yanking

by zuffazombie on Nov 23, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

your right i came off as ignorant, it is true there is technique applied in this submission but i guess i can say it wasnt a “pure” sub meaning factors like the cage helped phil keep control. In the second gif where phil was in a mounted position with 1 knee up, boetsch had plenty of space to escape his hips and pull guard which could have nullified the control over the arm, but the cage stopped him. I just feel phil wouldnt have had the same leverage and control in the center of the cage. i train in bjj and even though they dont teach us this specific hammerlock i understand its mechanics and see it as low percentage. At one point even phil is only using one hand to control the arm which is another hole in this sub. The grip phil had with one arm could have been broken also with that cage not in the way.

this sub is like a peruvian necktie, it works and looks cool but has weak bjj fundamentals

by zuffazombie on Nov 23, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I get your point that this was more of a strength/cage location type sub rather than pure technique

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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't Aoki do something similar to this?

Not the same position but a variation of the hammer lock and it’s called an Aoki or something?

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by doonerthesooner on Nov 23, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

The hammerlock on Mizuto Hirota is most likely what you’re referring to; no special name was given to it. There’s also the Aokiplata, which, if I remember correctly, was a gogoplata from mount, and one of the coolest subs ever.

by Hummus5989 on Nov 23, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

That's right

Drink to remember, drink to forget.

by doonerthesooner on Nov 23, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions  

actually aoki named it

the “Keichi Sasahara 2010” we did a Judo chop on it.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That name is going to catch on for sure…

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by Kefka on Nov 23, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Bravo calls it the “Locoplata”. The sub on Hirota was a “Police Hammerlock” if I’m not mistaken.

BTW on the discussion, dudes its useless every body is different so on some ppl it will work and some wont. Its the succes rate you have with the submission that counts tbh

by STEVENvanGEEL on Nov 24, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

the difference was aoki was glued to hirota, zero space, complete control as he maneuvered into a position to apply leverage to the shoulder. iirc aoki started in guard, controlled the hand while maneuvering towards the back, someone correct me if im wrong

by zuffazombie on Nov 23, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Aoki took Hirota down, was in an open guard of some sort, isolated the arm and then steadily worked to get Hirota face down on the mat by applying the hammerlcock.

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by Ben Thapa on Nov 23, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a catch wrestling move

Slightly different set of fundamentals between BJJ and catch wrestling, as has been pointed out several times.

by Hummus5989 on Nov 23, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

that's why you'll see more catch guys do it

BJJ isn’t the only way to the tap.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

no its not. its a technical move for sure.

Its more about grip strength and long arms. I have both.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Nov 23, 2010 6:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

not too mention the cage kept boetsch from scooting his hips out to safety, davis had some but not complete control over his opponent and his base could have been exploited without the cage, boetsch could have bridged over his left shoulder but the cage was in the way.

by zuffazombie on Nov 23, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, that's what I touched on

If boestch isn’t against the cage, he kinds of gets out easy or at least doesn’t get subbed.

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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s a Question Mark Kick you *&^(%)$#!

by KAN0 on Nov 23, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I have to say, that was one of the weirder discussions I’ve had so far on Twitter.

Sergio Non,
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by Sergio Non on Nov 23, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

yes that was

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Excuse me

This is insensitive to stupid people.

by Lauren J Darkbloom on Nov 23, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

why do you have to go on an insensitive anti-moron rant?!

Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.

by Stanlee on Nov 23, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

ok thats worth a rec

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by Cory Braiterman on Nov 23, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

HAHAHA

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 23, 2010 4:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I was waiting for this Judo Chop. Good job guys!

by KAN0 on Nov 23, 2010 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks Nate I’ve been praying nightly that you’d Judo Chop this. Pretty fast too! I thought there’d be a lot of research for this one.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Nov 23, 2010 3:15 PM EST reply actions  

there was

I hope you liked what we were able to do. If I missed a key source please let me know.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

If I missed a key source please let me know.

Yeah right. I learned more terms and moves from Judo Chops then I did for two years of High school wrestling. I get all of my catch wrestling\BJJ knowledge from you and the comment section. And I know you consider yourself green. So if you’re green then I’m the Jolly Green Giant.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Nov 23, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I learned this technique (in bjj) as a follow-up to a guard pass where you pin one of your opponents wrists to the ground, stand up, and then feed that arm underneath the other guy’s body and grab his wrist with your other arm. After you open the guard and then pass, you’re in a perfect position for this.

by zorba on Nov 23, 2010 3:18 PM EST reply actions  

yup me too

i learned it in a seminar from Fredson Paixaio at Yamasaki.. I’m pretty sure Lloyd Irvin trained at Yama from white to blue belt.. although I think he has extensive Judo experience.

by waldog on Nov 23, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

any videos?

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I know that both Marcelo Garcia and Mario Sperry show the guard pass I described in their dvd sets. I’m not sure if they show the follow-up armlock, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. I’ll take a look when I get home later tonight.

by zorba on Nov 23, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I just got home and found the Sperry technique, and he definitely shows a hammerlock finish once you pass the guard and have the guy’s arm pinned behind his back. Once he’s in side control with control of the arm, he mounts, and then falls to his back and finishes from full guard.

Here’s MG showing the guard pass. Note that he ends up on the other side of the opponents body compared to where you would end up if you did it the way Phil Davis did. He doesn’t show the hammerlock finish, but it’s not too hard to imagine how it would work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEcKADdLko&feature=related

by zorba on Nov 23, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks!

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Your previous “explanation” of the technique you learned from Fredson was so bad that I ran it by five or six of my friends and none of them could make heads or tails of it.

Want to give it another shot?

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by Ben Thapa on Nov 23, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I prefer discover (or rediscover more likely) to invent.

by penxv on Nov 23, 2010 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

I prefer Dos Equis

"We have all had to watch Brock Lesnar fart around. That guy is an embarrassment. God damn, you get to hand pick his opponents for him for a while then someone who is a half way decent athlete comes along and hits him once and he pisses his pants and runs. If he wasn't in a cage he would still be running."
-Don Frye

by dgonz on Nov 23, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

that's a very very

apt point. the human body is fairly limited from a physics perspective and a lot of smart people have spent a lot of time working on these issues. It’s fun to think about “lost techniques” that have only been discovered a few times and forgotten but the best grapplers have all probably seen most of the basic concepts that are possible with the human body. but it’s all about the variations and the blend of the athlete and the techniques.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

"There's nothing new under the sun"

 - Guru Dan Inosanto, who more then likely heard it from someone else and probably someone before them.

by KJ Gould on Nov 23, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Was there an angle that showed what Davis’ right arm was doing? It looked like as soon as he reached behind Boetch with that second hand was when he was able to wrench it… in the above gifs you can see the cameraman directly behind the fence, but I don’t remember that angle being shown in the broadcast.

Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.

by Stanlee on Nov 23, 2010 3:26 PM EST reply actions  

you know what's funny..

a white belt caught me with that move last night!!! I totally didn’t see it coming and moved in the wrong way out of it. I laughed to myself about it after class when i thought about how i just posted about it that day.

Still though.. I’m not so sure why this always has to be a debate about which martial art since.. BJJ is not the root of grappling arts.. its actually the EVOLUTION.

BJJ uses all wrestling judo catch all of the arts.. but they focus on the ones that make sense from a one on one fighting perspective.

I find it funny that Phil Davis’s coach is Lloyd Irvin and that he also trains at Alliance. Both schools are founded on Old school new school jiujitsu and pushing the the envelope on what works in a practical sense. BJJ is founded on the evolution of putting them all together.. you should have that in your judo chops instead of getting away from that fact.

Of course amateur wrestling (I watch the #1 school in the country practice) uses hammerlocks and it is very technical on the highest levels.. But that doesn’t mean the “holds” are being developed actively to defeat high level submission grapplers.. just saying there is a big difference.

Jiujitsu isn’t about “holds” it is about the transitions that happen and how to deal with that by flowing. I think this was a really good example of that.
  
I enjoy these articles they really make me think hard about what these sports mean as they combine and it reflects on their sport in return.
      

by waldog on Nov 23, 2010 3:27 PM EST reply actions  

thank you

very good commentary although i don’t recall denying that BJJ was evolving. new school new school BJJ is one of my big interests I thought quoting Lloyd Irvin’s take pretty well covered the BJJ side I certainly don’t have much to add to his take.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Actual question.

waldog referred to “old school new school” BJJ and now you mentioned “new school new school” BJJ. Are these confusing typos, or are they actual terms? Does this mean there are also “new school old school” and “old school old school” BJJ?

by Finian1 on Nov 23, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

i was thinking of guys like Robert Drysdale

Demian Maia, Marcelo Garcia, Ryan Hall, Roger Gracie as new school new school also Eddie Bravo although he’s more of a grappling for MMA guy than a BJJ guy IMO.
and was assuming that he meant the 2000s era new school guys like saulo ribeiro, fabricio werdum, the nogeiras as the old school new school guys but i could be wrong again.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Roger and Maia i think are throw back /old school guys

There aren’t too many “tricky” things they do they just do the basics better than everyone.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Nov 23, 2010 7:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

this is true

but they’re so good that they sometimes seem avant garde

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you. So who’s old school old school? Royce Gracie?

by Finian1 on Nov 23, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

from my perspective anyhow, Royce, Renzo and Royler. Plus guys like Mario Sperry, Bustamante, Ismail. Basically anyone who did Kid Pelligro book.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Is this the piece you’re referencing?

When a ball goes into a net, it only means something because we decide it means something. When somebody punches somebody in the face it always means something.

by lowellthehammer on Nov 23, 2010 3:28 PM EST reply actions  

yes

thank you!

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

BOOO at the editing that made it look like back and forth between me and KJ

LOL. It was NOT people. I didn’t get a chance to rebut

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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

PISTOL GRIP BIATCH

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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It's worth noting why this was banned

You can get a forearm break with it. I can see it being banned from most sub grappling competitions too before long, though they’ve likely never seen it happen (but have seen a short arm scissor bone shattering explosion. There’a a video of that on youtube.)

by KJ Gould on Nov 23, 2010 3:46 PM EST reply actions  

yeah i see the slicer there, he basically has an rnc on the guys forearm, with enough pressure that forearms breaking, i would think he would wanna grip his bicep for more leverage but that would cost the control he has over the shoulder.

by zuffazombie on Nov 23, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah. If done from another angle it can provide one with a gentle pop accompanied by a spiral fracture of the humerus. I can still feel the bump from the bone fusing back together.

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by Rundownloser on Nov 23, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is everyone so up in arms about not knowing what it was called ...

… when Phil Davis didn’t know?

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by James Brady on Nov 23, 2010 3:51 PM EST reply actions  

More incidental than innovative.

As Michaelson hints in the article, Boetsch made defensive mistakes which put himself into an awkward position. He deserves as much credit for this Submission as Davis does.

One of the black belts at my gym and I were working on a setup for a similar hammerlock attack, a couple weeks ago (though ours attacked the near-side arm, rather than the far-side arm).

While I don’t know of any hard and fast rules defining the attacks, I’ve always considered the position of the defender’s elbow to be the difference between a hammerlock and a Kimura. In a hammerlock, the forearm and elbow are behind the defender’s back, and the attack forces the forearm “up the back” (see old-school Catch terminology). In the kimura, the elbow is further out from the body, and the attack on the joint results from chicken-winging and rotating the arm in the shoulder socket.

Very similar attacks, which both focus on the same joint.

by Kung-Fu Joe on Nov 23, 2010 3:53 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

brace yourself for a lot of "incidents" happening as gifted and well trained American folkstyle wrestlers

get into MMA and look for submissions. You’ll see a lot of BJJ fundamentals violated and yet taps will be had.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a video interview by Jake Shannon with Neil Melanson recently

where Neil said there’s at least two principles or moves he’s picked up from Billy Robinson that he’s really drilling into his guys, and mentioned Gray Maynard in particular. I long for the day when Maynard becomes a submission finisher!

by KJ Gould on Nov 23, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

nice

that is good to hear

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I have to disagree.

Not with the idea that gifted folkstyle wrestlers will start getting more subs, but I disagree with your assertion that they will do so while violating fundamental principles of BJJ.

I’ve taught and trained with a ton of very talented folkstyle, freestyle, and Greco-Roman wrestlers (not the least of which being my coach, Kurt Pellegrino). Yes, guys with wrestling experience tend to transition to submission grappling more easily than others, but that’s because of the fundamentals which are shared between the styles— not because of their differences.

Are there talented grappling competitors who learned outside of the auspices of BJJ? Absolutely! I have a ton of respect for guys like Gene LeBell, Jimmy Pedro, Billy Robinson, and Stephen Koepfer. However, not a single one of them teaches things which “violate” BJJ fundamentals, when teaching sub grappling.

by Kung-Fu Joe on Nov 24, 2010 9:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think maybe what KidNate meant is you'll see subs come from unorthodox positions

Ones BJJ guys simply don’t think about because it’s not taught as a fundamental within BJJ unless the New School of players start picking it up. Robson Moura has a section on Side Control in one of his DVDs where he explores the stockade position and that simply wouldn’t have happened had wrestlers not begun using it to start with and those smart enough within BJJ start incorporating it themselves. I’ve even seen Demian Maia use the Indian Death Lock counter to the ‘Lockdown’ half-guard in his Science of Jiu Jitsu 2 set as well.

When a BJJ guy takes the back they’re taught to get both hooks in as that is believe to be optimum control, but wrestlers have several positions from the back they can still have control but opens up other submission and breakdown opportunities.

by KJ Gould on Nov 24, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought the sub was sick!

"I'm Feel Good"

-Wandi

by *thriive* on Nov 23, 2010 3:57 PM EST reply actions  

Phil Davis is good.

"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen

by Charles Awad on Nov 23, 2010 4:49 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

any of you guys think falcao would have gotten sub of the night if that glitch with the clock didnt happen?

I think possibly only because he was an underdog and expected to lose.

by zuffazombie on Nov 23, 2010 4:52 PM EST reply actions  

it wasn't as novel as Davis'

and really came after he’d more than battered Harris silly.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

he shouldn't have.

This was flashy and different. I enjoyed this move alot.

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Nov 23, 2010 6:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

What is S.C. Michaelson’s background in submission grappling?

"Everytime I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out of their ass!"

by Brian Mayes on Nov 23, 2010 5:11 PM EST reply actions  

Who knows? Who cares?

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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

he took a free tae kwon do class once

"I wish Anthony Pace was my father just so I could claim to be the fruit of his loins."

"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."

by the-gentle-way on Nov 23, 2010 6:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I know what Lloyd Irvin’s background is, I know what K.J. Gould’s background is. Was just wondering what your background in grappling is. No malice in the question, just curious.

"Everytime I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out of their ass!"

by Brian Mayes on Nov 23, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

3rd degree Black Belt under Ralitosis Gracie

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I wouldn’t want to roll with that cat. I hear he’s got bad breath.

"Everytime I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano out of their ass!"

by Brian Mayes on Nov 23, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

One Armed Bandit!

NICE!!!!!

"If Greg Giraldo is cremated will that be the Greg Giraldo Roast?" - Gilbert Gottfried

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by Earl Montclair on Nov 23, 2010 6:56 PM EST reply actions  

A wrestling double arm bar is somilar but not like this move nor set up like Davis got this submission. Doesn’t really look like any of the other pictures are either.

by mouse9379 on Nov 23, 2010 7:14 PM EST reply actions  

I thought he said it can be a set up for a double arm bar pin

I think wrestlers now call it ‘bar arm’ to stop the confusion with the straight arm lock armbars are now referred to. It’s Pro Wrestling’s fault, again.

by KJ Gould on Nov 23, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

they're all hammerlocks

the point was to show the wide variety of grips used to get the hammer lock in catch

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing I really like about Phil Davis

That makes him one of my favorite up and comers…

Aside from his undefeated record, his awesome personality, and his humble-always eager to improve mindset.

It’s that he is a top level wrestler who is fully embracive of learning offensive BJJ and submissions.

I mean, there are loads of wreslting-based MMA fighters that are almost flawless when it comes to getting guys down. But Davis seems so in control and focused on going for a submission finish once he gets there, it just makes him exciting to watch…he doesn’t ‘relax’ after getting the takedwon, which I like.

CPG

by Chris Groves on Nov 23, 2010 7:57 PM EST reply actions  

yup

that’s what i was struggling to convey.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I am slightly bemused at the debate over naming this...

Had I watched the broadcast, I’d have shrugged and called it an arm entanglement, just as people here probably did the same and called it a hammerlock. I’m more used to seeing it where the uke is on their front, but from the post I gather that is the same in wrestling.

Surely Rogan’s confusion was over trying to name a specific application of the technique, which was clearly executed differently from all the video and all the pictures in this post?

by ToffeeA on Nov 23, 2010 8:44 PM EST reply actions  

yeah

that’s why I like Mr Wonderful for this specific name. but i also understand why it’s a beef with wrestlers. many catch guys don’t even accept kimura as legit terminology. use that term with billy robinson some time.

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by Nate Wilcox on Nov 23, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Tiny note on a great article.

“which shows incredible strength as he is doing a bicep contraction against Boestch’s tricep contraction in trying to control the arm and we all know the tricep is the stronger muscle.”

Beotsch wasn’t just extending his tricep, he had to externally(possibly internally) rotate the shoulder first. From that position, the muscles of the rotator cuff we’re basically neutralized. He would need great explosive strength in his tricep and middle/anterior deltoid, along with very good flexibility in his shoulders to escape.

Davis was flexing the elbow(with his bicep), but the majority of the strength came from his back(which was adducting the scapula), his pecoralis minor and his lats which were adducting his shoulder joint.

In summary, from that Pistol Grip position, the attacker use able to use much more large muscle groups than the defender, who has to only one large muscle group and has to rely mainly on flexibility

by TheFilt on Nov 23, 2010 9:27 PM EST reply actions  

Have you guys ever heard of

Igor Kurrinoy? He’s like an 8X world combat Sambo champ. I was lucky enough to get an opportunity to train with him and he shows a rolling shoulder lock that’s essentially the hammerlock but with your leg instead of your arm. Just a side note, he’s one of the absolute best grapplers I’ve ever seen in my life. He was schooling Judo and BJJ black belt heavyweights like it was nothing. Serious business. Here’s a link to a video of the move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxiq3Zxp4lI

I catch it all the time now and nobody ever sees it coming!

by mictlantechutli on Nov 24, 2010 12:32 AM EST reply actions  

wow.

That was nice. I’m no grappler, but it looks kinda like an inverted omoplata

"In this fight, Anderson showed he was human," Nogueira said. "He showed he could be weak. But he showed he is a fighter and he brings something from his heart. It was beautiful."

by Broke Lesnar on Nov 24, 2010 6:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks!

I haven’t seen the gifs or read all the comments but that was a great Judo Chop, for me right now, Catch is number one and I look forward to its resurgence more than anything else in MMA right now, and it’s the Chops that are spearheading my enthusiasm. Shit’s getting biblical, keep it up guys, wrestling is going to get a lot less boring :)

by jwalker on Nov 24, 2010 4:37 AM EST reply actions  

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