Cage Side Seats talks to Keith Kizer of the NSAC who says Chael Sonnen was never approved for testosterone replacement therapy -- blowing a hole in Sonnen's anticipated defense at his appeal for the UFC 117 failed drug test that he'd been cleared for HRT at his three fights previous to UFC 117.
-- photo by Esther Lin
UFC 117: Silva vs. Sonnen coverage
over 1 year ago
Nate Wilcox
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Comments
Unsurprised.
Question: Does HRT give you backne?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Does Keith know about the Spanish Sonnen?
Maybe that guy had permission.
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by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That explains why the form said, "el testosterone-o"
…and “yo quiero nandrolone!”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
HRT can refer to multiple hormones
but if it is testosterone then yes, backne is a not uncommon side effect.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Isn’t he Keith Kizer?
And someone needs to ask the CSAC about it at as well.
http://www.instrength.com
Thats my thing to
Why would the NSAC have any say in it
Whatever. Just ban me. You're all gay. - Josh Grant
"I remember some things.. I'm just not too clear on being so old.. and black. Why am I black? And where did I get this suit? It's ridiculous." - Carl
by II SMASH II on Nov 17, 2010 4:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kizer was contacted by Cageside Seats for his take on Sonnen's intended defence
Since HRT is an ongoing treatment, Sonnen has to declare it in every state he fights in (except Texas, probably). By not declaring it to NSAC, and only once declaring to to CSAC blows a whole in his claim he’s actually on it for legit reasons.
This is Copp’s take on things though. Why is there no official word from the CSAC? Have they been contacted? Do they refuse to respond? What’s the deal?
http://www.instrength.com
Copp
seems to be inventing a story to let Sonnen off the hook that doesn’t really align with reality.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
The funniest part to me is that Copp is EMPLOYED BY THE UFC. What the fuck is he posting supposed insider info on Meltzer’s messageboard before? Haven’t enough media guys learned that info’s not gonna stay on the board anymore?
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wondered about that too. WTF? Could it be some planned PR move to try to get word around that Chael isn’t so bad?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
According to rovert, he said essentially the same stuff on the Angry Marks podcast, so it’s not the same type of situation as when he posted about WWE trying to hurt UFC in Europe.
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by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
It would depend on when he started such a treatment. If it was after the Okami fight, he would not yet have had to address it with Nevada.
Actually read my post at Cageside before you comment. The Marquardt fight was in Nevada.
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by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Shock me, shock me, shock me.
"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki
He DOES have a way with words but I don’t think he can get away with this one now. How much is this gonna hurt the division?
It won't hurt it
much, if at all.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Man, how long is that going to go on:
“UFC 117: Silva vs. Sonnen coverage”
When will our long national nightmare finally end?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
the hell you been
Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 5:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Got a new job - been spending a lot of time in transition,
Also, MMA has been as interesting as an Okami fight and as controversial as a Marquardt interview.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
But the jist of this ultimately for the average fan is...
Sonnen medically needs the testosterone? So in effect he wasn’t cheating in the classic sense?
www.ninjasplace.com
If he legitimately needs testosterone replacement therapy, then he wouldn’t have stopped in February for no apparent reason. Also, as I mentioned in my post, Kizer noted that fighters who damaged their natural production of testosterone via steroid abuse (which I’m not saying applies to Sonnen but is relevant in a reply to a question about TRT in MMA) will not be given therapeutic use exemptions (TUE). In a Nevada, synthetic testosterone with an exemption still can’t go past normal drug test failure levels. Ditto for Adderall, which he also mentioned because those are the two drugs with the most requests for TUEs.
CagesideSeats.com
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by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Even if the exemptions are granted
the drugs can still be abused as PEDs YET still fall within the normal range at pre-fight testing, under the current testing protocols. If the exemptions are to be granted in legitimate need cases – and I would argue they should be – then a condition of that acceptance has to be much more extensive testing that currently required (to be paid by the fighter and done at approved labs).
That is the only way it can work.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
At the end of the day
Any body with money can have a dr give them the treatemt for “legit” reasons…so I don’t see how that’s a good policy to begin with?? Shit anybody Can do that… Here mr commissioner I have my dr note and legit medical records thanks for giving me the pass on having some super testosterone levels… 2sweet.
Not exactly
A criteria for “legitimate need” is showing that levels fall outside the normal range initially, and a condition for AC acceptance is that even with the TRT they still must fall within the normal range.
Determination of “legitimate need” generally requires two sets of testosterone level blood tests to be near or below the lower bound, which varies by laboratory (the accepted range for Quest Diagnostics for example is 250-1100 ng/dl).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:30 AM EST up reply actions
Guess there's no shady dr.'s where u live
i live in NYC if you got a couple bucks you can get or do whatever your heart desires…if you go to a high end private practice your lab work doesn’t go out to quest it’s done in house and well if the dr has no morals whose to say he doesn’t falsify med docs for financial gain?? This isn’t rocket science it’s expensive cheating and alot of athletes do it
Just like the California and weed license
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 18, 2010 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
Every single one of my friends who still smokes
Has a card now. I even have one friend who is a mechanic – he went to one of the weed doctors and said he needed a license for arthritis. The Dr. said “no you’re too young. Stress Relief sounds better.”
The law is a joke. The only thing that is a bigger joke are potheads who point to the card as some validation of their habit. Look, you like weed and it’s ok; I used to smoke too. Just admit it. Don’t try and convince me as a 28 year old you NEED the dank.
BOOSH
True, and the use of PEDs is widespread across almost all sports, and at all levels
but throughout the country there are various clinics (usually anti-aging places) where such products are widely available for those with a legitimate (or even quasi-legitimate) medical need, but aside from truly high-end (read: cash only) private practices, they are not readily available to others with no obvious need and, even then, it is very difficult to get them for PED purposes (as a competitive athlete) because of the enormous legal, financial and career risk to the doctors if/when they are caught.
Now, if you’re the over-worked, over-stressed CEO of a local business, sure, a medical need can probably be found if you are willing to look hard enough, but for pro, collegiate and high school athletes those places are generally not an option because of the potential for bad publicity inherent when testing is involved.
As an aside, I’m sure there are modern day BALCO’s (I don’t run in those circles), but if they are the real deal, that knowledge stays within their close-knit, referral-only circles. If you’ll recall, it was a revenge/falling-out that led to BALCO’s product being discovered.
Of course, just as I could go into any decent sized city and score coke or heroin within a few days (if not hours), I could do the same thing with most PEDs. However, as with all drugs bought outside the mainstream controls, at the end of the day one has no idea what they are actually buying – what strength it really is, where and how it was made, how it has been stored/handled and what it has been cut with.
Along those same lines, it is my considered opinion that many of the athletes we see busted for steroids and think "WTF was that idiot thinking…how did they imagine themselves NOT getting caught for something so obvious" are actually a result of them not getting the product they thought they were buying (i.e. either getting a steroid with a far longer half life than the one "labeled" on the vial they thought they were getting or, more commonly, getting a steroid variant when they thought they were getting (considerably more expensive) hGH…).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
Then why didn’t Sonnen even apply for an exemption before the Marquardt fight?
CagesideSeats.com
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by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Because there’s no evidence he’s even on TRT, except for Copp saying there is?
http://www.instrength.com
I meant if he was (or claiming he was) undergoing TRT.
CagesideSeats.com
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by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
I know what you mean. I believe TLow is referring to the entire idea being speculative.
http://www.instrength.com
Well, yes, but one of the reasons I posted it ties into what S.C. says below: It might be a campaign of misinformation. Even if Sonnen’s not claiming what Copp says, the German voice of UFC/a UFC.com writer/a UFC marketing/PR rep who helped them break into Europe claiming it is newsworthy, especially if its blown to pieces. I was going to do a post about it anyway, because it’s still a pretty high level UFC employee (regardless of how he tries to downplay it himself) talking about what he’s been told Sonnen’s defense will be.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter @davidbix.
by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
It’s a story no matter how it plays out. Understandable, and thanks for providing the info.
http://www.instrength.com
No problem. To clarify: I was already writing a post about that thread, realized something sounded fishy, and decided to call the NSAC.
CagesideSeats.com
Follow me on Twitter @davidbix.
by David Bixenspan on Nov 17, 2010 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
The full article is interesting.
“A lot of guys who have cut weight from an early age develop testosterone deficiency. The exact mechanism isn’t fully understood yet but dehydrating your body badly and rehydrating over an extended period of time increases the chances of doing damage to your endocrine system by as much as 5,000 percent.”
5,000 percent is insane. I wonder what this does to them in their older age as well.
I found that interesting as well
I would like to know the source for that information, as I have never heard those figures before.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. I talked to an endocrinologist yesterday and that is some wonky science
She told me there has been a small amount of research that shows that dehydration can temporary lower test levels and affect someone during competition (i.e. test levels falling instead of rising like normally), but nothing like what is being said.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 18, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
It could be that
during the weigh-in/weight cutting cycle, which largely uses the bodies systems contra what they are normally used for those levels change considerably, but nothing like 5000%…then again, I’m not a physician and, while quite well versed with the practical aspects and basic medical systems and testing aspects of these subjects, I lack the expertise to tackle that one on my own. If you do come across anything cited, I would greatly appreciate a link if you think of it.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
I held out on writing anything about this when I first heard a couple weeks ago that this was his possible "defense"
I think it’s speculative because Copp (or whoever he is) isn’t Sonnen. That said, I didn’t hear this from Copp, so there might be a small amount of merit to it. It just might also be a part of a campaign of misinformation.
The HRT story has many holes.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 7:09 PM EST reply actions
What an anticlimax.
Sonnen’s perfomance – then juicing.
Its like coming and laughing at the same time because your lady friend bump her head. Fucking frustrating.
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