Alistair Overeem Responds to Dana White, Says Brock Lesnar Shouldn't Be Ranked in Top Five Among Heavyweights
Strikeforce heavyweight champion Alistair Overeem is busy preparing for the K-1 World Grand Prix Finals, but had enough time to respond to Dana White's claims that the Dutch fighter doesn't belong in any top-10 rankings for MMA heavyweights. In an interview with MixFight.nl, Overeem responded in full to all of White's comments, how he believes rankings should be compiled, whether Strikeforce or the UFC has better heavyweights and more. This interview has been translated from Dutch for BloodyElbow.com. Enjoy:
Dana White made comments about you not being ranked in the top 10, what’s your take on his comments.
Dana is entitled to his own opinion and has some valid arguments to claim his case but I don’t feel that they are that strong.
What do you think of those arguments he makes
You know, he’s claiming that I didn’t defeat anybody that’s in the top 10 so why should you rank me. That’s true but the fact of the matter is that I’m a very active fighter and you can see that I’m a different fighter then I was at 205lbs. I’m undefeated since 2008 when I became heavyweight and even more important I have finished all the fights in the first round but then again Dana is president of a company so he’s going to say stuff like that. To be honest it doesn’t bother me because I can make a good case for being in the top 10.
And what are your arguments for your case?
First of all he was telling that I didn’t fight anybody in the top 10, that’s not entirely true. When I defended my title against Brett Rogers, Rogers was considered top 10 after he defeated a former number 2 or 3 fighter Arlovski. I was not in the top 10 at the time and when I defeated Brett Rogers I enter the virtual rankings. Now everybody is saying that Brett Rogers shouldn’t have been in the top 10 in the first place but that’s the same as saying Brock doesn’t deserve a spot on number two. After what Cain did to Brock it’s silly to give Brock a top 5 spot, but that’s my opinion. He’s still a good fighter but having a 5-2 record and almost losing to Carwin and having wins over Herring, Couture and Mir (which he lost to as well) is not something that I’m very impressed about. I’m not going to call the media stupid like Dana but let me put it this way; how can a real M.M.A. insider put a Brock Lesnar above Fedor Emelianenko or even JDS. The fact of the matter is I like that people are debating the rankings but I don’t take them that seriously.
Why don’t you take them seriously?
You know when I heard that Brett Rogers was a top 10 fighter and I wasn’t ranked I thought he was the favorite going into the fight. Then a friend of my called and told me that he was going to bet on me but that I was the favorite and the odds where in my favor. So if the bookmakers don’t even use the ranking then you can say that they don’t mean that much. The same thing before the Brock vs Cain fight. I saw a preview article and most of the fans and other fighters thought that Cain was going to win the fight, that’s strange if the ranking put him number one and the organization calls him the ‘baddest man on the planet’.
If you can make the ranking yourself what does the ranking look like?
I’m not going to make my own top 10 because that will create just more room for the debate and that’s not necessary. People have to define first which criteria comes into play when creating a ranking system. Some people use only their last fight and what opposition they have fought. Other people look at skill set, talent, way of fighting and popularity. Now people tend to use both criteria and therefore you have ranking that can be heavily debated. That’s why Dana White is saying that I don’t belong in the top 10 because he doesn’t take into account my K-1 fights and doesn’t think that beating one top 10 fighter is good enough for entering the ranking. On the other hand you have Bas Rutten that says that I’m the number one heavyweight in the world. He uses my experience, potential, skill set and the way I finished fights against opposition that is not considered top 10. He also knows that my striking is improved very much and therefore uses my K-1 experience. So let’s say that the truth is somewhere in the middle. I’m fully aware that I have to prove myself, I know I can defeat anybody so it’s my job to prove it to my fans and to my doubters.
What do you think of Dana’s claim that the best fighters fight in the UFC and fight each other 3 times a year?
It’s not strange that Dana is making such a claim but if he really thinks that his heavyweight division is the best in the world he should let 5 heavyweights of the UFC fight 5 heavyweights from Strikeforce otherwise he can’t never justify his claim that UFC has the best heavyweights in the world. My opinion in this one is that Strikeforce have a good chance of winning. They tried it when Pride was there so it’s not something new. If Strikeforce is going to have tournament format they should reserve a spot for a UFC fighter, that would be awesome. About the fact that they fight each other 3 times a year, I can only say that he has a valid point but Strikeforce is a young organization and give them the time to prove themselves. They have a great roster of fighters so I’m confident that they will make the fights happen very soon. I’m ready to fight 2 or 3 times in 2011!
It's clear Overeem, and frankly most fighters, don't know how rankings are compiled. It's not about potential, subjective measure of skill or any other criteria. Bas Rutten couldn't possibly be more wrong. Still, I do think it's fair to rank Overeem in the top 10 and I suspect he does have the potential to enter the top 5 if not top 3 with some key wins in 2011. I hope he gets the chance to prove definitively he belongs. Let the debate continue.
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There is no ranking system. They all suck. Fighters and promoters having issues with rankings is ridiculous because every ranking system is inherently flawed.
Is Overeem a great fighter? Yes. Could he beat the top heavyweights of the UFC? We don’t know. And that’s the point. So it’s a waste of time to try to give these guys spots on a list that in the end means nothing.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:04 PM EST reply actions 14 recs
Exactly, all ranking systems have at least one aspect of subjectivity whether it be fighter speculation, assumed relevance or even certain myths (i.e. superheavyweight myth) and for that, they should not be taken too seriously.
We should commend Overeem here for such a well thought out analysis; he makes Dana’s rant seem positively idiotic in comparison.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
Since I agree 100% with your post, I thank you for getting it in first, and I will not read any further.
I wish threads were this easy:)
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I love and defend the Metas as the best possible system because it balances out sane people like me against insane people like Jesse Holland and Jim Genia.
If Brock had the cupcake resume at HW that Overeem does, he’d be ranked about 30th and treated like an utter freak show.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:07 PM EST reply actions
Listen
We all know Couture is a bum. Carwin is a bum. Herring was a bum right after Brock smashed him. Frank Mur? He has always been a bum but it was confirmed after Brock beat him. Heck. Cain was going to be a bum but he decided not to follow the script.
Anyone who loses to Brock == BUM
*please note the sarcasm here or not…
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by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Brock has a cup cake resume? Derek wft man.
Brock fought top ten, top five guys from the beginning of his career. I’m not a huge fan of Brock but I will give him that. Overeem has been fighting in MMA against guys that would def be out of the top ten.
I don't think he suggested he did.
Did he?
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by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’d love to hear why you think Holland is insane.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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He has Mr Overeem as the #1 heavyweight on Earth, and Eddie Alvarez as the #1 lightweight.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
The only reliable way of ranking people is by taking an average of bookmaker and betting exchange website odds.
Based on that, matching all HWs up against all HWs, either Overeem or Fedor would have the lowest average odds – this is without question.
by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yest it is. Money talks and it’s impartial.
by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Lines aren’t set like that though. We went through this a couple of days ago on another post. Lines are set to make money for the linemaker, that’s it. It’s about balance.
http://www.instrength.com
Notice that I said betting exchanges, too.
Also, they can’t differ much (outside of the US – where exchanges are illegal) from the market price, or no-one will use them. They’re a far better indicator than the ‘opinion’ of a ‘journalist’ desperate to please the (insert name of promotion / fighter).
I’m a professional gambler – concentrating on tennis, cycling, athletics & mma. I do have some background in this and statistics generally.
by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Math guys always think their way is the best. The problem is that it has no real world application in terms of how good a fighter is compared to the others, because there’s not enough data to make direct comparisons. And like I said, you know how lines are set as well as I do – it’s not indicative of a fighter’s skill level. It’s indicative of a fighters value. It’s apples and gorillas.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with you
as an economist by training (if not by trade) and a part-time gambler, the best indication of how any given person really feels about any given fighter is how they bet their own money on them.
They may not be able to articulate exactly why they feel as they do (some combination of history, style, track record, projection and all the other factors) but who they put their money on, everything else being equal, shows who they judge to be the better (and therefore more highly ranked) fighter.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Whoa whoa whoa...
betting lines are anything but impartial. They’re not set at a representative line of the odds of one fighter to win. They’re set at a value that will entice the gamblers into the most even action and ensure the most returns for the bookmaker.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
See my comment re: betting exchanges ..
and I know exactly how bookmakers operate … I have the displeasure of knowing several of them :D
by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
think of it this way
In the LHW consensus rankings, Bader is #6 and Jon Jones is #7. Almost no one truly thinks Bader is the better fighter it seems, and you can rest assured that Jones will be a -250 or more favorite in that one.
Were someone to be such a huge Bader mark that they were willing to wager straight up with anyone, they would be over-run with bets on Jones before the first full day of business was done.
Hell, Rampage (2-2 over the last 3 years) is #4, Forrest Griffin (2-2 over last 3 years) is #5, and Anderson Silva, in 1 of the 3 most one-sided UFC fights ever against Forrest is #9. Does anyone seriously think Anderson doesn’t win at least 19/20 against Griffin?!?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
AND
.. they are completely impartial in terms of anything besides money.
The reason bookmakers’ odds are sometimes so shit (particularly in MMA) is that there’s imperfect knowledge of the market among consumers, few bookies covering MMA and very little competition / no betting exchanges in the US.
by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
So
because you don’t agree with him, he is insane?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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Do we now the man’s methodology? Maybe he has an algorithm that he doesn’t deviate from. At least he’d be consistent.
I mean we don't know
But it seems fairly obvious that he ranks on hypothetical matchups. That’s the only way a guy coming off of a win over Huerta is ranked higher than a guy coming off of two wins over Bj Penn.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
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I just what him to explain it before I rush to judgement. Maybe he’s got a huge chart on his wall and somehow Alvarez comes out 1 along with Overem. Who knows?
9/11 truthers have charts too
That’s a fucking insane chart if it exists.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Do you have any idea of how poor taste that is?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Jesus Christ
I think Jesse Holland’s rankings are insane. Insane! I said it! Pass around a jar for the victims of my crime!
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Guys! Just got back! What'd I miss?
Holy shit I’m under siege! Take cover!
It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.
by Jesse Holland on Nov 17, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
lol
If you could handle this with more levity than the people I’m NOT talking about, I’m willing to downgrade your rankings to “unstable”.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't even "unstable"
be an upgrade from insane?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
THAT'S INSANE
INSANE
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
He has Shields at number 2?
Really? Wins over Henderson and Lawler shoot him all the way to two? Somebody needs to just sit and pick Subo’s rankings apart.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I think it’s justifiable. Shields beat # 3 and # 7, and # 1 beats # 2. Shields takes 2.
Either way though, Subo won’t give you a straight answer. If he’s defending Shields, he’s a top MW. If he’s not, he’s a blown-up WW.
The joys of delusion.
http://www.instrength.com
He won big fights at both classes, Sonnen fell creating a void and I can’t reflexively put Belfort at #2 just because he’s up for a title shot.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Where did you have Shields and Hendo respectively
Just before they fought?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Lulz
Yep, we’ve got a few of those “moving the goalposts” guys around here…y’all know who you are…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
His ranking of Hendo makes sense once you realize that Hendo is a much worse fighter since he left the UFC and pissed Dana off.
No no no
Dana knew that Hendo was done as a fighter and dismissed him because Zuffa knows when to cut them.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
hellz no
Hendo was coming off of a TUF coaching season and a devastating KO of the Brit. Why would Zuffa put all of that time, money, effort into someone that they knew was “done as a fighter,” as you put it?? c’mon man
“White, though, said he wanted to re-sign Henderson but couldn’t agree on the money in a new deal.”
"We have a good relationship with Henderson, and there are no hard feelings," White said. "He had a figure he believed he was worth, and we had our own figure, and we weren’t able to get together."
Can you tell me
where you found that? Or let me borrow/rent yours? Sure would come in handy around here…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
I forgot.
I must always remember to celebrate the losses of any highly ranked fighter outside of the UFC, because then all the top fighters will be in the UFC and they are preventing that from happening.
Tell ya what
Dana caught a lot of heat for letting him go and then no credit whatsoever when he looked fucking prescient.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
because he can't defend takedowns to save his life
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Sure – he’s had exactly one fight since and was dominated by a welterweight. Inactivity hurts you quite a bit in my rankings – I reward victories in the interim (Bisping beat Akiyama). Dan also fell because it appears his next fight will be outside of the division.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
And he beat Kang
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe its like the Geico caveman
in the fantasy football league whose brilliant program deduced that a long snapper (iirc) was the player to pick #1 overall…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
x-1,000u+1,000,000~u=r
Whereas x is the fighter’s actual value, u is if he is with the UFC, and ~u is he is not.
Geno – I disagree with some people over some rankings, and nobody’s 175 fighter ballot is exactly like mine, but I find Overeem at #1 (and Fedor at #2!) and Edgar at #1 to be completely indefensible. I wrote, like, a bunch of stuff about it.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
(facepalm)
My kingdom for an edit button.
So in conclusion, yes. Jesse Holland is insane until i hear him defend Overeem at #1 and Alvarez at #1.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think those two should be number 1 either but just because I don’t agree with him doesn’t mean he is insane. If someone said Frank Edgar was really the number 1 fighter in the world before he ever fought Penn people would have said this same shit you’re spouting now. Then he beat Penn twice and now it’s okay. Maybe he’s ahead of the curve. Maybe Overeem would beat the number 1 and maybe Alvarez would as well.
Point is, it’s stupid to call someone insane just because you don’t agree with them.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You're calling Subo out for being blunt?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
thats not blunt.
thats borderline libelous.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
No it isn't
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not libelous, it’s just rude and unnecessarily dismissive.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Basically Subo's style.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I’ve tried numerous times to engage Jesse about it, but the closest I got to a defense from him was “Brett Rogers = Shane Carwin”. My pieces about the rankings weren’t rude at all.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
No...they weren't at all...
but repeatedly calling him insane is rude. But whatever. I’m just saying…
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not a term I use lightly. I mean, #1? And Fedor right below him, above Werdum and JDS and everyone else? And Alvarez too?
I mean, “curious” is more diplomatic, but it doesn’t really encompass the spectrum of my disbelief here.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's not a tem you use lightly
and yet you are applying it to MMA rankings? Are you fucking serious with that?
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
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I read it as "It's not a term I use lightly, but this guy has Overeem at number 1, it applies"
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Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
What I’m saying is I don’t call everyone that disagrees with my rankings “insane”. Putting those two relatively unaccomplished fighters at #1 speaks to a complete ignorance of the only way prizefighting rankings have ever been determined (see Luke’s comment below). This isn’t God v Allah or Democrat v Republican, it’s black v white.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Full disclosure.
Now that I work for MMA Mania, I’ve gotten to know Jesse a little bit and talked to him damn near everyday. He is also my boss. Is he insane? Yes, but not in the way you are implying. If he put them there, then he had a damn good reason to do so. There are any number of reasons I or anyone else who has ever read your shit, could call you insane. But I won’t do it because that would be fucking stupid.
You can think what you want about these rankings, which I can’t say enough are utter and complete bullshit, but seriously, it’s sad that you just pass off anyone who doesn’t agree with you and kind of sad that you would call someone that and get all passionate over some stupid ass rankings that are going to change in about, oh, I don’t know, the next ten minutes.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
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I’ve been called much, much worse. I also consider myself the dispassionate one in most discussions. I’ve written at length about the absurdity I find in Holland’s rankings (and he was hardly the only one I questioned), and I’d love to hear a response from him through whatever channel he pleases.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I wish the different SBNation bloggers started a brawl
not unlike that seen in Anchorman.
Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Judging by Brookhouse's boxing pieces
He’d dance around and piece me up.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
"Brick, where did you get a handgrenade?"
“I don’t know.”

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You, dispassionate?!?
Seriously? You should go back and re-read some of our back-and-forths about rankings in general, and the whole Overeem’s record, Carwin/Rogers comparisons and the like. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your panties get knotted rather easily on certain topics…
Seriously though, at some point, I hope someone will give a logical, intelligent rebuttal to some of these points…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
That's not how rankings work
You don’t use them to fucking be “ahead of the curve” and show everyone how smart you are. You do them as a reflection of the accomplishments of the fighters. Hypothetical matchmaking is, at most, a tiebreaker.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
No.
Rankings are subjective. There is no right or wrong way to do them, which is part of what makes them bullshit. You act like there is a certain method everyone must follow and if they don’t they are clearly idiots. That’s not the case.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
Cageside Seats
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by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I feel there is.
I feel you’re either doing them to accurately reward fighters for their performance against quality opponents, or you’re using them to show off. One is right and one is wrong.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Since you like to claim subjectivity has no place in the rankings
What, specifically is your detail criteria that you use?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
detail = detailed
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Hypothetical matchmaking is, at most, a tiebreaker.
Subjectivity breaks ties. It doesn’t determine the landscape.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Again
What, specifically is your criteria? Or at least what, specifically, are your parameters?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, but not a hard fast rule.
Anybody can make rankings based on opinion, “insanity”, etc., Consider someone who isn’t part of the BE meta rankings and just espouses their opinion. Again, no hard fast rules.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
Wait...what?
So you are saying if Brock was 8-0 at HW over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy and another “NC” against a top-10 guy (Cro Cop) where he was almost Jonesian in his domination prior to the nut crack, he would somehow be ranked #30?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
That's another thing
How should that CroCop fight be ranked? I tend to give it weight.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I agree
but guys like Subo, who argued that the Hamill DQ should actually count against Jones (in another thread obviously) rather than be treated for what it was – a domination that (in Jones’ case should have been stopped long before) wasn’t credited as a win because of a rule violation at the very end. For the official record, of course they don’t count as wins (although Jones’ should have been NC), but for rankings and future match-up purposes, those with sense count them for what they saw actually happen.
If reggie bush’s usc teams had to give their title back, does it make them any less of winners or less dominant in anyone’s eyes besides the historians?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
I'm completely consistent there
Jones doesn’t get credit for what he did to Hamill and Overeem doesn’t get credit for what he did to CC because neither could keep their dick in their pants long enough to avoid cheating.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
orrr.. you’re just wrong with jones. He hit him with a SINGLE “illegal” strike and the fight was stopped due to a misunderstanding with a deaf fighter. But you go on with that diatribe, i’m sure you’re going to get a lot of people pissed off still.
Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
That’s because Jon Jones is treated like the fucking love child of Minerva and that hot chick from Grown Ups around these parts. He’s a kid, he’s a prospect and his toughest test is upcoming.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
That's true
But that doesn’t mean he didn’t demolish Hamill.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I completely agree with you.
On the comparison btw Reem/CC and Jones/ Hamill, i definitely DO NOT.
Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Don't use illegal strikes!
It’s very, very simple! If you do and the fight ends on them, all I remember about the fight is that you couldn’t control yourself long enough to get the victory, and that is a Key Goddamn Component of being a good MMA fighter.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Not all wins are created equal
Not all losses are created equal. We should be able to look at them and take more than just a W or an L from the fight.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly!!!
Neither all wins nor all loses are, or should be weighted, equal.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
but they aren’t what ended the fight!!! it was all miscommunication because of Hamill’s elbow!!
That fight should’ve already been stopped, Jones was in mount and raining down elbows.
i don’t want to argue. we aren’t going to change each others opinion so there is no point.
Agree to disagree, Steve Mazzagatti SUCKS though.
Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
FINALLY
You admit your own subjective bias, that was plain for all to see, yet you tried to hide behind an illusion of impartial objectivity.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a Jones fan, but it was more than one elbow
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
You say that, and
I can agree on Overeem, and I would on Jones too if it was a NC rather than a bullshit DQ loss.
And yet you have argued, repeatedly, that the DQ loss should actually count against Jones, rather than for him or, more intelligently, completely neutral.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, the only thing I’ve ever said is that Jon Jones lost to Matt Hamill. And he did.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
No, iirc
In a discussion regard Jones and Bader, you argued that Jones’ DQ loss should count against him for rankings purposes because of the idiocy involved (my words there), whereas I argued that both Bader and Jones were unbeaten (which they are).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
No. Jon Jones isn’t being punished by being lower than Ryan Bader. Ryan Bader IS undefeated and has a more impressive resume. Jones sure as hell didn’t get to advance up the rankings on a LOSS.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Ironically
I think Joe Rogan or Dana said he actually would.
it was right after the fight, either in the ring or during the press conference.
Jones should have advanced on the basis of dominating his opponent in all aspects of the fight – a fight which continued well after it should have been stopped due to referee error. The fact he was given a technical loss has little bearing on the facts of the fight as they apply to rankings, and Hamill himself has said as much.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
Real talk
I’m not going to call the media stupid like Dana but let me put it this way; how can a real MMA insider put a Brock Lesnar above Fedor Emelianenko or even JDS.
"Josh was not very sportsmanship."
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:10 PM EST reply actions
Overeem is killing them softly with logic oops his opinions.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
rankings suck and people are stupid
styles make fights, who cares whose top 10. overeems talented and i wanna see him in the UFC
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
Rankings are tools by bloggers and the media who need some attention
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
Rankings are valuable talking points and provide a general overview of the top end of a division that provides for a snapshot in time of where the division stood. Of course we could all argue fighters should move x spots up and y spots down but that doesn’t make them totally without value.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I respectfully disagree
Ranking in tennis maybe do matter? Maybe in basketball? But not in MMA when top fighters often end up not fighting each other. It’s a lot of speculation and what you have you done for me lately. That’s what bloggers love. Something to grab on and stir the pot .
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
They seem meaningless until you’re trying to remember where the division stood in June 2003 and trying to unpack the value of a fighter’s wins at that time. Divisional snapshots have value.
Of course we love a good controversy that gets page views and discussion going, but rankings can provide both of those.
Does that mean that they’re the end-all-be-all of a fighter’s relative worth? Absolutely not.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Brent
I am a tech blogger and my colleagues love nothing more than to just compare Android phones vs. iPhone and rank them. So yes. The controversy art does sell. Here is the thing though. In tennis, nobody doubts, Nadal is #1. In MMA, half the people say Werdum should be #1, half say Cain should be. Or worse, some have Overeem as their #1. The same at light-weight.
Also, wasn’t it just a short while ago that Couture was #2 heavyweight behind Fedor. Then he lost to Lesnar and he was considered a bum for doing so. Just saying
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Couture was #2 when he was going to fight Fedor, then magically became “a natural LHW” after Brock put the stamp on him. The systematic denigration of Brock’s victims is worse even than the systematic inflating of Overeem’s accomplishments at HW in MMA.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
The denigration of Brock's victims and the pumping up of Fedor's future opponents
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
The Grim!
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Are you suggesting Arlovski was not beating Fedor? :-)
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Are you implying that
Nog was shit during his prime because he always looked like he was getting his ass handed to him, right up until he submitted them?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
denigrating of brock's opponents? zombie nog beat randy too. he's not the end all be all of heavyweights. despite what that zuffa paycheque tells you *smh*
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Zombie Nog beat Tim Sylvia too
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think it happens
with every fighter who has a large, loyal following – and it happens with both wins and losses…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
The fact that people are stupid and love to revise history based on the current doesn’t devalue rankings to me, it just means that they’re used incorrectly.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
this is one of the most important reasons for rankings, I think. It helps provide good evidence against the revisionists out there.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
I totally agree
I caught myself literally laughing out loud researching the info for this discussion upon realizing that Mir was #3 when Carwin destroyed him (and Brock, at 3-1, was #5).
BTW, can you please have the link fixed to the pre-2010 rankings on BE, its been down for some time.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Of course I can go to the trouble to google them, but
when the link at the bottom (Showing 1 – 10 of 20 Older) – with the older being a link, the linked page returns this message:
SB Nation
404: The page you were looking for doesn’t exist.
This page may have moved, or you may have mistyped the address or followed a bad link.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Good idea, but by searching for heavyweight rankings 2009 I got:
Results 1 – 10 of 122 for “heavyweight rankings 2009” in Bloody Elbow
* Stories (122)
* FanPosts (102)
* FanShots (3)
* Comments (17)
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:37 AM EST up reply actions
For anything older than a year or so, try “metarankings” or “meta-rankings”.
http://www.instrength.com
Still gives way too many to wade through, going 10 at a time
Thanks for the help, but I’m going to have to hope that at some point they will see fit to fix the link.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 3:17 AM EST up reply actions
My question is not whether they exist somewhere,
but why the link is broken on all weight class pages.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t you have to know history to revise it? I guarantee the guy making all the noise about other people’s rankings hasn’t seen half the PRIDE or numbered UFC events. He certainly doesn’t have an understanding of the lighter weight classes.
His broader point that the electorate might be more carefully considered is a good one. Of course he’s talking himself out of a job.
by Jonathan Snowden on Nov 17, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Because PRIDE fights are so relevant to today’s rankings, amirite?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Who says Werdum should be Ranked #1?
I know JDS never said anything like that.
I always thought Couture as the #2 heavyweight was laughable. See Tim Sylvia’s bad back.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'll believe it when I see it.
I’m ready to fight 2 or 3 times in 2011!
"Josh was not very sportsmanship."
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:12 PM EST reply actions
Could very well prove correct
but there is only so much control a fighter has over that. In fact, what are the odds based on 2010 that any top Strikeforce HWs have more than 2 fights?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
is anyone else impressed with AO's interview abilities?
I thought his responses were well calculated and then properly justified. He makes assertions and even goes on to explain how it could be discounted, but ultimately stands firm on his point.
This gentleman seems even more intelligent and thoughtful than most professional MMA fighters; which says quite a bit, as I find many MMA fighters to be articulate. This above and beyond.
by Schwizzles on Nov 17, 2010 2:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions 14 recs
Yes, I was very impressed.
"Josh was not very sportsmanship."
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
He's well spoken.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
He sounds more like a man
who should be running a top organization than Dana does…then again, PR is not the only part of the job…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutley
I had to go and make sure this interview wasn’t given in English.
But yes, running a company is more than the PR element. I personally have no idea how good a strategist or negotiator Dana White may be. I assume he’s pretty good at both, but there’s just no way for me to tell.
At some point, when the
growth moderates, Dana will have to either evolve himself, or give way to a David Stern type to continue the mainstream growth.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
He's a smart cookie.
And a scarry man.
Dana needs to sign him asap.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
He's not American
It’s a plus
Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.
by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely, he’s a smart guy who knows how to speak. Whether you agree with him or not, this is a good example of him at least being reasonable and constructive in what he’s saying. Love me some Reem.
by Horselover Fat on Nov 17, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Money on his mind
Ask him a question, and he’ll will tell you the answer that leads to the most money.
How much do you think he made last year fighting cans? Or this year is Strikeforce/K-1?
He stands to gain millions more in the US if he can develop a mainstream following and a good relationship with Dana. He has it all. The talent, the looks, the body, the mind, the mouth. If Overeem can’t blow up in the UFC no one can. The only thing that could be better is if he was American.
Pretty sensible answers from Overeem. Good to see he didn’t fly off the handle like some people do when talking about rankings.
Nothing really seems to bother Overeem
He never really loses his cool.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Quick, hide this post before Josh Thomson sees it...
Yeah...protect you thumb...it's the only thing that differentiates you from the monkey...
It’s not strange that Dana is making such a claim but if he really thinks that his heavyweight division is the best in the world he should let 5 heavyweights of the UFC fight 5 heavyweights from Strikeforce otherwise he can’t never justify his claim that UFC has the best heavyweights in the world.
How about we get the Strikeforce heavyweights fighting each other, then we can go from there. Starting with you Mr. The Reem.
by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 2:19 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Ha, good point. Why do they sign these guys to just sit around?
"Josh was not very sportsmanship."
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going to start a promotion tomorrow and sign the first five fat people I see. Until Dana lets five of his heavyweights fight my guys, he can’t never (sic) justify his claim.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
This is the second time you made me laugh in a short period!
Starting to like you Memitim.
But don´t worry, not all people from Amsterdam are gay!
Let´s see what Overeem does after the K-1 final.
K-1 is still more important in Holland than MMA, but i hope he will join the UFC soon. Waiting for Werdum is not a good option now he said he first want to fight outside Strikeforce.
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
I agree
With the popularity of K-1 over even the UFC’s brand of MMA, I don’t blame Reem at all.
Having said that, should he win the K-1 title, I would fully expect him to head for the UFC asap unless SF starts making things happen, matchmaking wise…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
I love Amsterdam. Top 5 city for me.
Last I heard Reem wasn’t going to fight in the US till May. I think Fedor will fight Werdum before The Reem does. Which will stay in line with fighters getting title shots coming off losses.
In an earlier interview....
Alistair already said it is more logical for Fedor to first face bigfoot before getting a shot at the winner of Werdum vs Overeem.
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
That’s when The Reem starts driving me a little nuts. He starts telling other fighters who they should be fighting when he only shows up in the US with the frequency of something like the Olympic Games.
You really can’t blame ‘REem. He’s trying to get his money and looking for challenges. Apparently Strikeforce doesn’t have their things together. Most of the HW have some issues.
It’s not AListair is not fighting, sitting on the bench. He’s staying active.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve gone down this road before but fighting in the US, defending his title, once every four years is really not acceptable. Especially when he is fighting a ton of cans in Japan.
Fighting K-1
is not the same thing as fighting cans with all respect.
Coker is the one who needs to put it together, not Overeem.
Overeem challenged Fedor and Werdum, what could he do more, fight Herschel Walker?
Despite the fact that i think Dana is a dickhead, i think Overeem should go to the UFC to prove who he is.
I like Coker but he acts like a pussy, he should decide what happens in Strikeforce and not the fighters.
Talking about that, i need to give some credit to Dana for this, because i know he will finally gets what he wants. Dana knows it, Overeem knows it and also Coker knows it!
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
When I say cans I mean the MMA cans like Fujita and Thompson, not K-1 fighters.
My primary objection is he should have given up the belt last fall once he entered K-1. Brett v Fedor should have been for the title and Werdum should be the champ right now. That’s how it should have went down and things would be so much simpler right now if it was done that way. But, like you said, Coker is a pussy. No way Dana would let his HW champ disappear for four years and let him keep the belt.
There was, for all intents and purposes, no SF HW division during much of that time. And Overeem wasn’t under contract for much of that time as well.
If it weren’t for M-1 trying to play their matchmaking games, Fedor’s first or, at worst, second fight in Strikeforce should have against Overeem for the belt.
But M-1 wanted to be the shot-callers and insisted on a lay-up fight against Werdum after Rogers, being lured in by the siren call of the PPV $$$ they saw by having the third fight against Overeem….and here we are, still waiting for SOMEBODY to fight SOMEBODY in SF…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
I understand that Overeem wasn’t under contract for about two of the four years we are talking about. But, if you are a MMA champ, you defend the belt or you lose it. Overeem was under contract for all of 2009, he did have an injury, but he still should have fought at some point for SF. The title should have been vacated.
Also, the plan was for Reem to face Rogers and Fedor to face Werdum on the CBS show. No one here in the states knew who Overeem was and he was barely top 10. He needed a fight before Fedor in the US against real competition. Someone who the fans knew. Thus, the Rogers fight. But, M-1 was renegotiating and Reem was still doing K-1 at the time so it never happened and you have that crap CBS card as a result.
He has been the Strikeforce HW champ
For 3 years and 2 days, not 4 years. Otherwise, I agree in principal with what you are getting at – Overeem, Fedor/M-1 and particularly Strikeforce got together to not just crap the bed, but to turn it into a public toilet…
Damn frustrating as a fan, that is for sure…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
Acceptable? He should vacate his title?
You sound more sour as a fan than anything else. You also sound sour about M-1 and Scott Coker’s inaction. It is frustrating as a fan but am going to be mad at Overeem for getting injured? Werdum just recently said that he would like to fight in Japan before a rematch with Fedor. That’s not cool for fans who want fights that “really matters” blah, blah, blah but I guess this is what happens when you allow your fights room to breathe.
I’m still not mad at Overeem. We’re still getting some cool cross-promotional fights. Coker may be a pussy but it is looking great for the sport. Overeem is right in my book, Dana White can talk about having the best HW till he’s blue in the face but he’s not trying to sully his product with cross-promotional fights. I care little about that talk about how that doesn’t make sense business wise. I’m just a fan.
Did I get to see him fight? Check yes. That’s acceptable.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 18, 2010 5:51 AM EST up reply actions
When I say it is unacceptable and he should have vacated the title this is my reasoning. He puts K-1 over defending his belt two years in a row. Either you are the champ and a MMA fighter first or your not. If your not, then don’t gum up the works, if you are defend your belt twice a year.
And when I say 4 years I’m including the time he says it will take before he returns to Strikeforce, which last we heard isn’t till May at the earliest.
And who is he supposed to defend it against
after Rogers? And when? Overeem is not completely without fault in this of course, but what else could he reasonably be expected to do seeking a SF fight?
I can’t imagine that he particularly cares one way or another who he fights for at any given time, nor should he, just that he is fighting…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
He should get away with whatever he can get away with. Strikeforce should have had him fighting last fall. They let him go do K-1 and keep the belt. It should have been simple. You can go fight in K-1, but you have to vacate the title.
As far as who to fight, Strikeforce could have offered Werdum, Arlovski (who he was supposed to fight in June of ‘09), Bigfoot, Rogers. It’s such a joke and a pain in the ass in matchmaking that he holds the belt. Werdum should be the champ right now and the question should be whether Fedor gets a rematch after losing the belt or who the real #1 contender is, Overeem or Bigfoot, and probaby should face each other for the right to be #1 contender.
I really think that if Coker would nut up
the fighters would fall in line and fights would get made – its like there is this paralysis by analysis throughout the org.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
People said that I am skeptical. I doubt that
. The Ratings are nothing more than an attention grab for the media. It gives them something to write\argue about. It’s the P4P and even weight class rankings = The BCS.
If the NCAA had a playoff system then college football writers would have half of their material gone.
It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.
It’s not strange that Dana is making such a claim but if he really thinks that his heavyweight division is the best in the world he should let 5 heavyweights of the UFC fight 5 heavyweights from Strikeforce otherwise he can’t never justify his claim that UFC has the best heavyweights in the world.
He has a point, but JDS and Big Nog both did beat Werdum…
And the HW division is the ONLY division that seems to have any real merit in Strikeforce. But I guess they’ve got to start somewhere.
"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki
“any real merit” = “more than three fighters”
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I was trying to be nice… you can try that sometime.
"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki
Part of your sig is dedicated to my benevolence, so whatevz.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Don't worry Keren
Once Reem is in the UFC Subo will be all over his nuts.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Overeem's record at HW over the last 3 years compared to the UFC's Big 4:
Cain certainly has a better resume, and it could be argued that Lesnar does as well despite the losses (and if you don’t look too closely at the Carwin fight), but JDS’ is at best equal to Overeem’s and Carwin’s, no matter how vivid Subo’s imagination is, just doesn’t match up:
Overeem is is 8-0 at heavyweight over the last 3 years, with one victory over a top-10 heavyweight (Brett Rogers, #8). His only other ranked opponent (Cro Cop at #9) was ruled a NC after Overeem completely dominated the fight on the ground and on the feet before "cracking" Cro Cop’s nads…
Shane Carwin is 5-1 at heavyweight over the last 3 years, with one victory over a top-10 opponent (Frank Mir).
Cain Velasquez is 7-0 over the last 3 years, with 2 wins over top-10 guys (Lesnar, Big Nog).
JDS is 7-0 over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Werdum).
Lesnar is 4-2 over the last 3 years, with 3 wins over top-10 guys (Couture, Mir, Carwin)
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions
That is all that I included.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
The person who let Fujita, at this point in his career, fight Overeem should have whatever credentials and license taken away from them. Fujita had no business being in that fight and The Reem damn near killed the guy.
Agreed, but
can you honestly say, were you in Reem’s shoes that you would rather not fight than take the fight that was offered to you?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Or FEG decided to have Fujita fight him instead on their New Year’s show since he’s a bigger name in Japan.
But don’t let the truth spoil some good bs.
No. Bas Boon confirmed that they declined Arlovski because Reem fought in K-1 that month. FEG then offered Fujita and they took the fight. I’l try not to let that truth spoil any other bs you want to bring up.
That being the same Bas Boon
you are always saying can’t be trusted? But seriously, even if that’s the case, it makes sense if they were insisting on having Overeem fight on NYE – Overeem would need a legit camp to prepare for Arlovski…Fujita, he could probably take on a days notice.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, the same Bas Boon that can’t be trusted. He lies and pulls just as much crap as M-1.
I don’t have a problem with Reem taking an easier fight after competing in K-1 earlier in the month. I have a problem with FEG more for putting Fujita in their with him. That was downright reckless.
Agreed
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
It has never been revealed how or why that played out like it did
IIRC, Arlovski’s people said they were notified by DREAM that Overeem was fighting Fujita instead at the NYE show.
I have no direct, personal knowledge of the situation and, who really knows, maybe Coker nixed it hoping to have that fight in SF?
You can’t seriously imagine Overeem would try to “duck” Arlovski, unless your hate for the Reem has grown since we last discussed this topic…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Reem was honestly remorseful after that
I think he may be done taking squash matches like that. Since then he’s fought Rogers and K1. ITs become unsafe for him to fight the James Thompsons of the world.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Whatever Overeem is taking...
makes his brain grow.
A lot of UFC fighters haven’t really struck me as academic folks. Sure, there are guys like Florian that come across as intelligent. But Overeem has a very calm awareness of rational thought that most fighters don’t use.
Rankings currently don’t consider potential. Jon Jones is probably a better fighter than most if not all the fighters above him. But He won’t be ranked that high until he beats someone higher up. But magically that same fighter now has a higher ranking with the same potential.
I think Overeem would give fits to most of the UFC guys. I could really see him knocking Cain out too.
Well, that’s the thing, you have to kind of prove your potential. I think it is easy to look at Reem’s physique and his dominance over the cans of cans but you put him in the cage with someone as technically proficient as Cain and then we will see. Could he knock him out? Sure. If Cain stands in front of him with his hands at his side and does his best Rocky impression versus Clubber. But, that’s not going to happen. Cain is going to take him down and The Reem is going to have expend energy and get oxygen to those inflated muscles. Then shit gets real.
I largely agree with this
At some point you certainly have to prove it, and I think Cain is the HW that is the most likely to beat Reem. Probable even.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
WORD!
I completely agree with everything REEM says here. He’s not full of shit like Dana is.
I think the truth is somewhere in between both of their views.
Reem is def top ten but not top 5.
Straight up, Alistair is the MAN
he may not be number one, but then again some rankings had Chael over Anderson when they fought. All rankings are awful. Overeem would be top 10 in my book because of his experience, skills, and the small amount of tape we have on his top 10 performances. Say what you want, but he completely obliterated the Brett Rogers hype and made him look childish in the process.
Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?
What I take from this
Overeem doesn’t give a shit about rankings.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I really liked this comment:
I’m fully aware that I have to prove myself, I know I can defeat anybody so it’s my job to prove it to my fans and to my doubters.The man has definitely won me over.
by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm a fan.
He actually seemed really apologetic after he knocked out Fujita. And how public he is about his support of Marloes Coenen. I like him.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Well, good on Uber for feeling bad about destroying a guy that had no business being in the ring with him.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
"Yes, that's it! Let the hate for 'Reem flow through you."

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Overeem said he was really upset.
He put the man in a coma and nearly took his life. Not only that, it was a guy a lot of people(including Alistair) looked up to.
Then do your job, Reem. Stop fucking talking about it and sign a contract for the Fedor fight. Carry it around and ask everyone you see “have you seen Vadim? I need to speak to Vadim.”
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
kinda hard if he hasn't been offered a contract. especially when the other guy is undergoing CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
exactomundo!
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Lulz
Kind of hard to sign a contract you have never been offered, don’t you think?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Demand it, then. Don’t show up to defend your title ONCE in TWO YEARS, then disappear to K-1 again, then cry about how other fighters (that were more consistent with diverticulitis than you were healthy) are ranked.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
He's crying?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
He seems pretty chill about it all to me.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Yeah
He doesn’t really seem that upset at all, and he ends by saying he has to prove it.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
“Crying” is kind of ridiculous.
Let’s see any of these guys go up against other fighters in their disciplines. Not happening.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
The Reem reads Bloody Elbow
http://twitter.com/#!/Alistairovereem/status/4979483341758464
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.
i don’t have twitter, what’d he say?
Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
@Alistairovereem
Alistair Overeem
Bloodyelbow.com translated a dutch interview I gave in reaction to Dana White check out the link http://bit.ly/aDNiyn
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.
niiiice luke should tweet back about getting alistair on his show
Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?
by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Make it happen Luke!
"A man that does not fall, does not stand up."
yeah just calm down about the big ape.
Awesome!
Hope you get it done, looking forward to it.
by Horselover Fat on Nov 17, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Sup Reem
You want to come to my party Saturday? Its BYOB but a few of the girls will be fairly hot. Its going to be an Intergalatic Keggar, like from Men In Black so wear a costume. Its cool if you don’t though, you’re the Reem.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Are you The Reem? No? Then you’re just as useless as all the other untermensch.
by Horselover Fat on Nov 17, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Who are you to ask if he’s the REEM?
If he is, then you’d be feeling pretty dumb, huh?
I have it on good authority that ufc4 is, in fact, Jon Jones.
Jon Jones would pray for ufc4’s soul if he knew of him.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
You are if you bring a bottle of Jameson
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Hey man
I clearly said BYOB.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Looks like this all degenerated as expected.
But one thing is undeniably true: people are afraid to fight overeem. Bas was 100% right about that, I dont care if you agree with him/like/dislike etc., People are definitely afraid to fight overeem.
Number 2, just use your imagination to simulate an overeem vs lesnar fight. Brock would be asleep after a jab.
Interesting Fedor Theory
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.valetudo.ru/&ei=Au3iTOijO4S8sQOm-bRm&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://valetudo.ru/%26hl%3Den%26site%3Dwebhp%26prmd%3Div
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in Mother Russa fail links you
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
by DamnSevern on Nov 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That's quality.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the most interesting thing I’ve read about the situation. If true it confirms most my wild theories.
by John Nash on Nov 18, 2010 3:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
And, based on the bits and pieces we have heard elsewhere, it certainly sounds plausible on several fronts…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 3:57 AM EST up reply actions
After what Cain did to Brock it’s silly to give Brock a top 5 spot, but that’s my opinion.
WIN!
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VEe is ANIMated!
Not after cain, always. brock has never been top 5 to sensible humans.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Brock Lenar: The baddest man on....
the dancefloor!
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
by Sanderman on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Uhmm yeah. I felt that way when he defeated Couture and he was shot all the way to the top 3. Lesnar ranked higher than Emelianenko?!? OK. I never brought that load of crap and I never thought Lesnar was ranked higher than Velasquez, Carwin* or JDS. (* that was prior to their fight)
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by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
Amen brother. I'm glad someone on here has some sense.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Note, I don’t have sense because I still think Carwin is better than Lesnar . . . even though he loss.
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by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
BUT BUT BUT
Brock is so BIG!
And he’s got lots of FANS!
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
After Werdum tapped Fedor in less time than I can hold my breath underwater
it’s silly to give Fedor a top 5 spot.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah cause one win erases what 33 fights of accomplishments?
Ok subo, use your real name.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
…I have him sixth.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
What do 33 fights have to do with "recent"ness?
What Fedor did 10, 5 or even 3 years ago isn’t a reflection of the fighter he is today.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I agree somewhat.
But now we’re getting back to the methodology behind rankings like we discussed above. Most people think its all about right now, but for me and some others I prefer if it’s more subjective and you can actually grasp a fighters abilities. But by that system yes, that is true. The only problem is you’re then throwing werdum aside.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think it kind of says that loss, especially the way it happened, was a mistake and that he is likely still the fighter who before wasn’t beaten for a decade. He took his hit in the rankings but if he wrecks Werdum in a rematch then what?
Then he avenges his loss like Lesnar did
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
And, prior to the Cain demo
Lesnar was #1 in the rankings. IMO, should Cain lose and Fedor win his rematch, Fedor is back at #1.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly. If he avenges his loss in the same decisive fashion as Lesnar did Mir then he is right back. Except instead of being 4-1 Fedor will be 33-2.
He fought 35 fights in the last couple years?
Because according to the way you want to look at things, the Bulls are the favorites to win the championship because they won 6 a few years ago.
But if he beats Werdum and Lesnar doesn’t beat a top 10 fighter, I would rank Fedor above Lesnar….if that win comes before Spring.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Unlike most others who feel this way i'm fine with fedor getting beat.
I mean he got beat. there aren’t any stars or appendices beside that result. brock lost. fedor lost. thats it. The second part I do agree with. If Fedor would win a rematch what happens? I can see it now, people dropping werdum out of the top 10 and not moving fedor…..oh the ignorance.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Over the last 3 years
Fedor is 4-1, with 3 wins over top-10 guys. During that same period, Lesnar is 4-2, with 3 wins over top-10 guys.
This, in a nutshell, is my beef with the “objectivity” of the rankings.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Brock wins on strength of schedule
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
To me
Brock was #1 because his most difficult fights were his most recent, whereas the rankings of Fedor’s opponents has been on a steady downward trend over that 3 year period.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I guess when he dispatched 2 UFC heavyweight champions who were marketed as the SH*T it really didn’t matter because Dana White quickly dismissed both fighters as being anything special.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Who marketed AA and Sylvia as "the shit"?
Maybe you added “the” incorrectly. Sylvia was 1-2 and bounced out. AA was left to die on the vine.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
They were UFC heavyweight champions, it kind of goes with the territory.
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by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
The diffence is
Brock got outclassed.
Fedor got caught.
Not the same.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
umm.....
Brock got caught, with like 10 shots to the face
by F'n Clownshoes on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Brock got caught by a bunch of punches
Fedor got outsmarted and outclassed. See how that works.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Well
Honestly, not very well. Rollo has you on that one.
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by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
thank you
don’t argue with SC about Brock.
He’s usually very reasonable, but when it comes to Brock he’s a hopeless mark.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Brock got caught?
No. Brock got hiss ass whooped plain and simple.
by davidm1122 on Nov 17, 2010 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Moreover
Fedor got caught in a way that is highly unlikely to be repeated, and in a rematch Werdum will still be a +500 or worse dog. Any of the truly top guys at HW beat Werdum 8/10 or 9/10 times. Is he a can? Not at all, but he is in no way top-3.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
If the Fedor/Werdum fight happened again, I don’t think Werdum would be the favorite.
The Brock/Cain fight looked like if that fight was fought a hundred times Cain whoop destroy Brock the same way exact 75 times.
So that makes Fedor's loss worse, right?
He lost to such an inferior fighter
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
You're missing my point
I find this whole line of thinking facetious
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Bro, you bashed Fedor +10 times in just the last 5 minutes. I thought people were done bashing Fedor…
I'm facetiously "bashing" him by turning people's own "logic" against them
How you could not see this I don’t know?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
And it does
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
To whom?
No wonder you found that train of thought ‘facetious’. You didn’t actually understand my line of thinking and were being facetious yourself. Way to project. Defense Mechanisms Activate!
Ryo Chonan submitted Anderson Silva, who would you take in a rematch?
How about Mir/Lesnar 1? What did Mir/Lensar 2 look like?
Conversely, Rampage beat the shit out of Chuck, people Called it a fluke, until he did it again.
Brock looked out classed in every way during his fight with Cain.
I've got add
Fedor’s arm was going to break, he forced himself to tap one time.
Brock was being punched and scream “NO. NO. NO.”
Cain takes broke 9/10 times, Fedor takes Werdum 9/10 times. Aside from those who might quibble and say 8/10, I don’t think anyone serious would seriously disagree with that…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely not intentionally
I’m being straight forward.
For that particular reason, I find Brock’s loss a bit more damning than Fedor’s. Cain’s win seemed much more logical or methodical, for the lack of a better word. Not to say that luck/probability isn’t always involved.
The other factor is their records, Fedor fell to 31-1. Brock is now 5-2. A loss counts a lot more statistically to Brock.
Completely agree
Fedor got overconfident after his first escape and jumped back into Werdum’s guard adjacent to the cage and got caught…no way he makes the same mistake again.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
And who do you have ahead of him? Cain, JDS, and Werdum are the only three who I could rate about him based on accomplishments over the last 3 years.
Brock and Carwin. Fedor is 1-1 in his last two fights, defeating Brett Rogers (1-2 in his last three with a squeaker over Warpath) and Werdum (whom was 2-1, losing to JDS and beating Mike Kyle and Bigfoot). Carwin’s only loss is to Brock, Brock’s only loss in that span is to the current #1 and he beat Carwin.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
I don't buy this at all
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
In the last 3 years – which seems to be everyone’s magic timeframe – Brock is 4-2 with a loss against an unranked opponent and the #3 HW and wins against #12, #7, #3, and #3.
Carwin is 5-1 with wins against #9 Gonzaga and #3 Mir and a loss to #2 (going into the fight) Brock.
Fedor is 3-1 with wins against #5, #2, #8, and a loss to #9.
But I’m sure you can find a way to delude yourself that you’re not being partisan when you say you that there are 5 fighters that deserve a higher ranking.
Actually, Sherdog bumped Brock to #1 between Fedor’s loss and 116.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Since we “love and defend the Metas as the best possible system” I generally stick to the BE consensus instead of cherry picking one ranking that gives me the results I want.
They simply hadn't updated yet
Fedor wasn’t keeping that spot after a loss. Brock Lesnar became #1 that night, and the fight between he and Carwin was for the #1 spot.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I’m waiting for Belfort to defeat Anderson Silva and then to be launched #1 rankings.
Mean while Dan Henderson is still screaming BUT I BEAT THAT GUY!! And Jake Shields would be more than happy to turn Belfort into pretzel.
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by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
i don't know if overeem is top 10
but what he did to rogers was scary. the way he threw him down reminded me of jon jones. i don’t know if it’s steroids or what but he really looked to be at a different level.
so frustrating they couldn’t just make him fight fedor. that fight should have happened this month. who cares if he was getting a title shot off a loss? how can you let such good fighters sit on the shelf for so long.
How Rankings are Compiled
Luke, it’s unfair to say he has no idea how rankings are compiled, in fact it almost makes it seem like you’re trolling. He addresses that some people use just a ladder system, which is what BE proselytizes, and others (such as myself and some other members of instrength.com tend to use) incorporate talent, ability, skill-set and experience with that same ladder system.
He knows how ranking systems work. He knows how your ranking system works (when he addressed that people use opposition quality and their records for ranking) and how other people use ranking systems (skill set, ability, qualitative analysis). I don’t understand how you can rightfully say he doesn’t understand how ranking systems work when he already acknowledged the system and format yours adheres to.
You can make the claim that other mma-sites or people don’t understand ranking systems as you define them to be, but not that Alistair doesn’t. He came off as very lucid and thoughtful during the interview and there’s no need to chastise what he said. Other people will continue to use ranking systems based on things other than their fighting record and will continue to label them as ranking systems. In them doing so, it lends credence to Alistair’s comment that there are different kinds of ranking systems. Which there are.
Sorry, that was a little verbose but I just don’t understand all the bashing and censuring all the time. I especially don’t understand it if you’d like to have Alistair as a guest on MMA Nation.
www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.
by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Yeah, I thought Luke kind of totally ignored what Overeem said.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
"and others (such as myself and some other members of instrength.com tend to use) incorporate talent, ability, skill-set and experience with that same ladder system."
This is like saying:
Luke, it sounds like you’re proselytizing this theory of gravity, but I prefer a theory of the bloofer monster keeping everything glued to the planet. In prizefighting, there is only one way rankings have ever been compiled in history. Period. If the fact that a large number of fans or even insiders or ignorant of this makes you think there are competing theories, not sure what to tell you.
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by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That’s fine, you can consider me to be wrong, I expected that. But Alistair was not. There are different ranking systems being postulated and he recognized that. He understands how these differing systems (even if you view them as being compared to a bloofer monster, how is that not trolling?) work and gave his opinion on them.
What I don’t understand is why you would censure Alistair for it, I understand the inflammatory response towards me but AO?
www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.
by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not censuring anyone
But I’m not going to say he’s right when he isn’t. It’s beyond strange fans think “experience, skills and potential” are even coherent criteria much less what’s been used in prizefighting. It’s not a system, never has been and never will be. It shouldn’t even be mentioned, most notably because Overeem’s argument for being in the top 10 doesn’t require it.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think it’s more a matter of you chastising someone’s opinion, and that opinion is no more right or wrong than yours. You don’t believe that to be the case, obviously. You think there is one, best way of doing things. That’s your prerogative. But many, many people don’t subscribe to that theory.
http://www.instrength.com
Most people don't believe in evolution
But modern biology thrives. I’ll live.
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by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That’s not a good comparison at all. You have modern science on your side in that case. How do you defend a ranking system? It’s all theory. There’s no proof of anything.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'll let you in on a secret: religion and modern science are both bullshit. imagine that.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
never said there was. memory is stored in DNA. maybe try accessing it?
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, so THIS we can summarily dismiss. Word.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I bet, if we explored really hard, we could find somewhere that wasn’t a subject of debate for you even though people disagreed with you.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
That didn't make sense either.
Did you mean something instead of somewhere?
http://www.instrength.com
Yeah.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
How is modern science bullshit?
"Josh was not very sportsmanship."
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
IIRC, most people do accept evolution. Just not in America.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Or Iraq or Iran or India or Italy or Brazil or Japan or China or Mexico or Pakistan or Somalia or
Afganistan or Turkey or Venezualla or Costa Rica or…….
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Those populations don't amount to much
Then again, I could have been reading about first world countries only. I’m not sure now, it was a while ago.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
China?
India?
Pakistan?
Are
you
high?
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Those aren't first world countries...
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
So?
they still have BILLIONS of people in them.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
Did you see the part where I said
the study could have been about first world countries? And to sort of shut this down, the study done by the British Council in 2009 indicated that 74% of the Chinese accept evolution.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't see that.
Did you see the Indian population has over 1 Billion people in it?
Or Pakistans near 1 Billion?
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
I don't have the numbers
but India isn’t a big hater on evolution. I am clueless about Pakistan, although I would assume they don’t know much about it. That could just be my bias.
In general, the worlds perception of evolution tends to be better than Americans realize.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
I believe this is what Batman was referring to,
A comparison of peoples’ views in 34 countries finds that the United States ranks near the bottom when it comes to public acceptance of evolution.
Only Turkey ranked lower.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207858,00.html#ixzz15ZqlEhq5
by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Those people are wrong.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Hypothetically, would you have Overeem in the top ten?
For everyone that thinks I hate him: I have him 9th! In the division, there’s really no where else to put him.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I think I've got him at 8 or 9, personally, but haven't compiled recently
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
There’s just no way I’m putting him over a guy like Big Nog. Not until he beats somebody.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
not until he actually fights MMA?
I mean fighting once every 2 years and the rest in K1 is not exactly worth of getting someone ranked in top 10
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Are you truly unaware of his record?!?
Overeem is 8-0 in MMA over the last 3 years as a HW, with 1 win over a top-10 guy and 1 NC after dominating another top-10 guy.
Yes, the Fujita fight will show on fight finder or where ever as a K-1 dynamite match, but those were MMA rules (Aoki won the same night IIRC).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
How many times does Big Nog have to lose?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
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How’s the last guy that beat him doing?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Nog is 1-2 over his last three
And Mir isn’t exactly setting the world on fire.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
no. I object to that
Mur dominated Crocop and Koed him in the most exciting fight of the century
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com
by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
THIS is what I keep talking about with rankings reality vs. perception
Nog is 2-2 over the last 3 years, with 2 wins over top-10 guys (Sylvia, Couture).
Mir is 4-2 over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Big Nog).
Overeem is 8-0 at HW in MMA over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Rogers).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
ooh,ooh
i know this….he’s champ right?
by F'n Clownshoes on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Nogueira is my favorite fighter of all time. I’ve covered that time and again. but Overeem’s 8-0 run over questionable competition PROBABLY gives him the slight nod on my rankings which get seen by no one but me over Nog who is 1-2 in his last 3. Not because Overeem has been great but because Nogueira has picked up losses.
And now we go to the argument over if losses to tough competition are worth more than wins over barely mid-tier fighters which is a question that everyone has to have their own answer to and one that I am not going to debate here.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
In my own private idaho...
A loss to someone ranked 2+ spots above you shouldn’t significantly affect one’s rankings – it is exactly the outcome expected were the rankings perfect.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Chances are the guy two spots below him won his last fight, so then you just switch them.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
My point is that
if #6 loses to #1, it is simply the expected outcome, and should not hurt #6’s ranking in the slightest, provided both gave a good account of themselves.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions
Ok. You’re speaking of ladder-rankings, that’s fine and empirical. Not all ranking systems are meaningful or substantive. They don’t determine #1 contenders and from what I can tell, promoters give little if any credence to them. It’s a nice way of understanding the meaning of someone’s record, but someone using a ranking system based on fighting-ability doesn’t make it intrinsically worthless, it just makes it a different format of ranking. Ranking based on fighting ability and good ol’ conjecture of who would win the fight, which has been used for a long time in boxing as well. May not be the standardized form of boxing rankings that you’re referring to (because there is more than one format for rankings in Prizefighting, may not be as prominent but there are, see Beer Monster’s post below) but a ranking system nonetheless.
Apples and oranges. Apples might be your favorite fruit but just because people say an orange is a fruit is well, and a damn good fruit, doesn’t mean that it’s trying to be an apple.
www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.
by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
We're never going to agree
But to be on the safe side, I adjusted my language to be a little softer in the post.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
I applaud that
Most would never take opinions into consideration (looking at you, subo). I’m glad you do. That’s what’s great about this place.
http://www.instrength.com
I let them censor the Fuck Strikeforce headline. Not like I got a vote, but hey, it happened.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you.
www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.
by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and to censure means: harsh criticism or disapproval.
“It’s clear Overeem, and frankly most fighters, have no idea how rankings are compiled. It’s not about potential, subjective measure of skill or any other completely silly criteria.”
You’re saying that he has no idea of what he is speaking of and that some of his purported methods are “silly”. How is that not censuring?
www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.
by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’m a BEER Monster. Not a bloofer monster. Come on.
But what you’re saying about combat sports ranking system isn’t exactly true. The alphabet soup of boxing promotions doesn’t use your system of ranking at all. They all use different systems based on…well, whatever they please. Even Ring rankings aren’t all laddered.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the sanctioning bodies do play fast and loose
But that’s even more reason to be suspicious of THEIR rankings, not the idea that what we are establishing is divisional hierarchy to position a leader and a line of contenders. THat’s what rankings is about.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
I should make it clear that I’m not criticizing BE’s ranking system or your belief that’s it’s the best way to do things. I personally think it works, overall. I’m saying that your idea isn’t the only valid one out there. There’s no one correct way to deal with something so subjective.
http://www.instrength.com
And that would work well enough
if it were separated for each organization.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, rec'd.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
And in the absence of
head-to-head matches, or even common opponents, what exactly are the detailed criteria of that system?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
That's the rub
The rankings systems are all nothing more than a blend of methods. The rankings are a mix of record, reputation, "lifetime achievement", bullshit and pure speculation. How else do you explain the rankings of Rampage, Griffin or Thiago Silva as compared to a Jon Jones?
If Jon Jones were treated on potential like Brock Lesnar (top-10 at 3-1), where would he rank? There is no realistic reason for Rampage, Griffin or Bader to be ranked ahead of him, and certainly not by some of the idiotic criteria I have heard given as reasons.
Jones hasn’t fought anyone in the consensus top 10, but he has absolutely destroyed everyone in his recent fights. The only LHWs who would be even with or perhaps very slightly favored against him are probably Rua, Machida, and possibly Rashad (at +200 or so). That’s it.
Same thing at HW. How does Werdum jump to #2 on many rankings, based on one fluke win. If he had been top-5 already and on a long winning streak, sure, but he had neither.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
How does Werdum jump to #2 on many rankings, based on one fluke win
The first step to figuring this out is understanding that Werdum’s win wasn’t a fluke.
Fluke might be a little strong, but lets start by defining our terms here
a fluke is a lucky or improbable occurrence, with the implication that the occurrence could not be repeated.
If you removed the “luck” from that (and any implication of luck) then it fits perfectly.
Fedor had survived the supposed most dangerous guard of Big Nog repeatedly, and had already easily escaped Werdum’s initial sub attempt and therefore in a fit of overconfidence dove back into Werdum’s guard trying to pound him out, not realizing a trap had been set and Werdum either wasn’t rocked or had recovered.
My question for you then is do you think Fedor so foolish as to make that mistake again, or do you think Werdum so skilled he can pull guard on Fedor at will?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it’s likely to happen again, but by that standard, an unacceptably high number of fights could be deemed “flukes.”
Is Gabriel Gonzaga catching Cro Cop with a head kick again? Is Carlos Condit landing that hook on Dan Hardy again? Would Jose Aldo knock out Cub Swanson with a double flying knee again? Are both of Mike Brown’s wins over Urijah Faber flukes, because the first time Brown caught him throwing an improbable elbow, and the second time Faber improbably broke both his hands?
I would answer “no” to all of these, and I wouldn’t consider any of these wins flukes, either.
Werdum caught Fedor overcommitting and locked up the perfect submission at the perfect time. He exploited both the physical situation and the particular psychological weakness that his opponent brought to the ring that night (trigger-happiness/overconfidence). To me, that doesn’t sound like a fluke. It sounds like Werdum was the better man that night. Ultimately, that’s all a fight can really tell you.
And, by definition,
Werdum was the better man that night…my point with the “fluke” remark is that Fedor wins that match-up at least 8/10 times, regardless of the outcome of this one.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:53 AM EST up reply actions
Rankings are still blunt instruments and subject to whim
I agree with everything Overeem said more or less.
"One thing I will never do is I will never say never." -Dana White
Gotta love Reem
He’s well spoken and made his case well. The man is a serious fighter in general. He’s constantly in competitions, and constantly winning. I think he’s a beast HW, and exactly right about the UFC vs SF HW matchups. I think SF has a better overall HW division, but I’d give anything to see that go down. Regardless, rankings are definitely silly, but still fun to talk about. I really can’t wait to see Reem and the rest of SF’s HW’s get into action next year.
Allister Overeem has been fighting lower level HWs in MMA.
that’s a fact. Rogers is probably was the highest ranked MMA HW he’s fought lately.
1. Cain
2. JDS
3. Werdum
4. Fedor
5. it’s a mess from here on.
Eventually this will all truly be SUBJECTIVE
that is once SF folds and the upper crust talent goes to Zuffa… then let he rankings begin.
I like what he has to say. Good stuff.
I also am in full agreement with his comments about oddsmakers… money means a heck of a lot more than what most rankings mean. If the odds in a fight between two guys are on one fighter, then that fighter should be ranked higher than the other, no matter what else. I’m not saying the person with odds always wins, but I wonder if the person with odds wins more often than the person listed higher in rankings when they aren’t on the same page? (and when the skill level isn’t greatly different)
There's no doubt Overeem would be a contender if he were in the UFC right now
No matter where he fights, he has the abilities and skills to dominate in any organization. Guy is a beast.
Let's resolve all of this by taking the 8 best heavyweights in the world, however we each rank them,
and let’s have a tourney to determine who is #1 at that moment (Cain, JDS, Carwin, Lesnar, Fedor, Overeem, Werdum, Barnett).
There we go, black with white stripes – dilemma solved…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:08 PM EST reply actions
the new Fedor
without so much animosity from both sides. With the possible exception of BJ Penn, I can’t think of anyone more polarizing in MMA than Fedor…where I have often found myself at odds with both sides.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Allistair’s brain may be as big as his traps. He showed excellent analytical skils parsing through the various arguments — he’s definitely top 10 in that regard. He would have been a good debater or lawyer.
On the other hand, I don’t understand this:
It’s clear Overeem, and frankly most fighters, have no idea how rankings are compiled. It’s not about potential, subjective measure of skill or any other completely silly criteria. Bas Rutten couldn’t possibly be more wrong.
Since people like Bas are compiling their own ranking systems using subjective measures, it is, as a matter of fact, one way in which ranking are compiled (and clearly one of the ways that p4p rankings are compiled). Given that there isn’t a uniform body deciding the “silliness” or the necessity of ranking factors, I don’t see how anyone can be so riled up over this or can make a statement like the one quoted above. I’d bet that such subjective factors do constitute a non-insignificant part of most people’s ranking systems, which is why fighters such as Penn are still ranked as highly as they are.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
Where have you been?
And, as usual, you are spot on. When there is no way for winners to be determined “on the field” as it were (due to different orgs), subjectivity is a necessary component of any valid rating system that has its roots in reality.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Working incredibly long hours.
Your posts remind me of another user I frequently agreed with — BigDNotDallas. Have you changed your name (or been banished and reborn)?
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Nov 18, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions
Shoot me an email (added to my profile page temporarily) if you can. Gracias.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
This is what I could have posted if I wasn't at work at the time.
P4P rankings are a perfect example of subjectivity. There are people who commented here that you couldn’t do rankings that way who probably publish p4p lists. oh the irony.
by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
Reem's answer is respectful and correct
What a great response.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
Overeem knows whats up.

"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by VelociAldo on Nov 17, 2010 6:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Would LOVE to see the Top 5 in UFC vs SF in HW Division!
Granted it’s a pipedream, but Alistair’s idea is fantastic. Can you imagine the audience size? That could be the highest viewership of any MMA event ever if it were to happen. Initially, one would think that UFC would never take that risk. But…considering the extra $$$ to be made, a HW showdown once per year would be an interesting business case.
In trad’l martial arts, there are open comps, wherein fighters from many sanctioning bodies compete against one another, but they aren’t credibly recognized. This is disappointing. In each major form of sport, there should be a globally recognized comp each year. Every 4 years at the Olympics is not enough, and excludes several worthy sports, such as MMA.
What a thoughtful reply by Alistair. This is the type of insight that builds credibility. I am more of an Overeem fan for having read it.
Luke, thank you for sharing another great interview!
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by @FightSpectator on Nov 20, 2010 2:04 PM EST reply actions

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