Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Ryder Hesjedal Wins Giro d'Italia

Alistair Overeem Responds to Dana White, Says Brock Lesnar Shouldn't Be Ranked in Top Five Among Heavyweights

Photo

Strikeforce heavyweight champion Alistair Overeem is busy preparing for the K-1 World Grand Prix Finals, but had enough time to respond to Dana White's claims that the Dutch fighter doesn't belong in any top-10 rankings for MMA heavyweights. In an interview with MixFight.nl, Overeem responded in full to all of White's comments, how he believes rankings should be compiled, whether Strikeforce or the UFC has better heavyweights and more. This interview has been translated from Dutch for BloodyElbow.com. Enjoy:

Dana White made comments about you not being ranked in the top 10, what’s your take on his comments.

Dana is entitled to his own opinion and has some valid arguments to claim his case but I don’t feel that they are that strong.

What do you think of those arguments he makes

You know, he’s claiming that I didn’t defeat anybody that’s in the top 10 so why should you rank me. That’s true but the fact of the matter is that I’m a very active fighter and you can see that I’m a different fighter then I was at 205lbs. I’m undefeated since 2008 when I became heavyweight and even more important I have finished all the fights in the first round but then again Dana is president of a company so he’s going to say stuff like that. To be honest it doesn’t bother me because I can make a good case for being in the top 10.

And what are your arguments for your case?

First of all he was telling that I didn’t fight anybody in the top 10, that’s not entirely true. When I defended my title against Brett Rogers, Rogers was considered top 10 after he defeated a former number 2 or 3 fighter Arlovski. I was not in the top 10 at the time and when I defeated Brett Rogers I enter the virtual rankings. Now everybody is saying that Brett Rogers shouldn’t have been in the top 10 in the first place but that’s the same as saying Brock doesn’t deserve a spot on number two. After what Cain did to Brock it’s silly to give Brock a top 5 spot, but that’s my opinion. He’s still a good fighter but having a 5-2 record and almost losing to Carwin and having wins over Herring, Couture and Mir (which he lost to as well) is not something that I’m very impressed about. I’m not going to call the media stupid like Dana but let me put it this way; how can a real M.M.A. insider put a Brock Lesnar above Fedor Emelianenko or even JDS. The fact of the matter is I like that people are debating the rankings but I don’t take them that seriously. 

Why don’t you take them seriously?

You know when I heard that Brett Rogers was a top 10 fighter and I wasn’t ranked I thought he was the favorite going into the fight. Then a friend of my called and told me that he was going to bet on me but that I was the favorite and the odds where in my favor. So if the bookmakers don’t even use the ranking then you can say that they don’t mean that much. The same thing before the Brock vs Cain fight. I saw a preview article and most of  the fans and other fighters thought that Cain was going to win the fight, that’s strange if the ranking put him number one and the organization calls him the ‘baddest man on the planet’.

If you can make the ranking yourself what does the ranking look like?

I’m not going to make my own top 10 because that will create just more room for the debate and that’s not necessary. People have to define first which criteria comes into play when creating a ranking system. Some people use only their last fight and what opposition they have fought. Other people look at skill set, talent, way of fighting and popularity. Now people tend to use both criteria and therefore you have ranking that can be heavily debated. That’s why Dana White is saying that I don’t belong in the top 10 because he doesn’t take into account my K-1 fights and doesn’t think that beating one top 10 fighter is good enough for entering the ranking. On the other hand you have Bas Rutten that says that I’m the number one heavyweight in the world. He uses my experience, potential, skill set and the way I finished fights against opposition that is not considered top 10. He also knows that my striking is improved very much and therefore uses my K-1 experience.  So let’s say that the truth is somewhere in the middle. I’m fully aware that I have to prove myself, I know I can defeat anybody so it’s my job to prove it to my fans and to my doubters.

What do you think of Dana’s claim that the best fighters fight in the UFC and fight each other 3 times a year?

It’s not strange that Dana is making such a claim but if he really thinks that his heavyweight division is the best in the world he should let  5 heavyweights of the UFC fight 5 heavyweights from Strikeforce otherwise he can’t never justify his claim that UFC has the best heavyweights in the world. My opinion in this one is that Strikeforce have a good chance of winning. They tried it when Pride was there so it’s not something new. If Strikeforce is going to have tournament format they should reserve a spot for a UFC fighter, that would be awesome. About the fact that they fight each other 3 times a year, I can only say that he has a valid point but Strikeforce is a young organization and give them the time to prove themselves. They have a great roster of fighters so I’m confident that they will make the fights happen very soon. I’m ready  to fight 2 or 3 times in 2011!

It's clear Overeem, and frankly most fighters, don't know how rankings are compiled. It's not about potential, subjective measure of skill or any other criteria. Bas Rutten couldn't possibly be more wrong. Still, I do think it's fair to rank Overeem in the top 10 and I suspect he does have the potential to enter the top 5 if not top 3 with some key wins in 2011. I hope he gets the chance to prove definitively he belongs. Let the debate continue.

Comment 398 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Exactly, all ranking systems have at least one aspect of subjectivity whether it be fighter speculation, assumed relevance or even certain myths (i.e. superheavyweight myth) and for that, they should not be taken too seriously.

We should commend Overeem here for such a well thought out analysis; he makes Dana’s rant seem positively idiotic in comparison.

"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri

by andrew861 on Nov 17, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Since I agree 100% with your post, I thank you for getting it in first, and I will not read any further.

I wish threads were this easy:)

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin

by Snatchl on Nov 17, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I love and defend the Metas as the best possible system because it balances out sane people like me against insane people like Jesse Holland and Jim Genia.

If Brock had the cupcake resume at HW that Overeem does, he’d be ranked about 30th and treated like an utter freak show.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:07 PM EST reply actions  

Listen

We all know Couture is a bum. Carwin is a bum. Herring was a bum right after Brock smashed him. Frank Mur? He has always been a bum but it was confirmed after Brock beat him. Heck. Cain was going to be a bum but he decided not to follow the script.

Anyone who loses to Brock == BUM

*please note the sarcasm here or not…

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock has a cup cake resume? Derek wft man.

Brock fought top ten, top five guys from the beginning of his career. I’m not a huge fan of Brock but I will give him that. Overeem has been fighting in MMA against guys that would def be out of the top ten.

by Lil_Machete on Nov 17, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he suggested he did.

Did he?

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

haha. egg on my face. you are correct sir. I think he and I have the same view point then. haha.

by Lil_Machete on Nov 17, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d love to hear why you think Holland is insane.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
Cageside Seats
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko

by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

He has Mr Overeem as the #1 heavyweight on Earth, and Eddie Alvarez as the #1 lightweight.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The only reliable way of ranking people is by taking an average of bookmaker and betting exchange website odds.

Based on that, matching all HWs up against all HWs, either Overeem or Fedor would have the lowest average odds – this is without question.

by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Uh, no. That’s not a good way of measuring anything.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yest it is. Money talks and it’s impartial.

by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Lines aren’t set like that though. We went through this a couple of days ago on another post. Lines are set to make money for the linemaker, that’s it. It’s about balance.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Notice that I said betting exchanges, too.

Also, they can’t differ much (outside of the US – where exchanges are illegal) from the market price, or no-one will use them. They’re a far better indicator than the ‘opinion’ of a ‘journalist’ desperate to please the (insert name of promotion / fighter).

I’m a professional gambler – concentrating on tennis, cycling, athletics & mma. I do have some background in this and statistics generally.

by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Math guys always think their way is the best. The problem is that it has no real world application in terms of how good a fighter is compared to the others, because there’s not enough data to make direct comparisons. And like I said, you know how lines are set as well as I do – it’s not indicative of a fighter’s skill level. It’s indicative of a fighters value. It’s apples and gorillas.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with you

as an economist by training (if not by trade) and a part-time gambler, the best indication of how any given person really feels about any given fighter is how they bet their own money on them.

They may not be able to articulate exactly why they feel as they do (some combination of history, style, track record, projection and all the other factors) but who they put their money on, everything else being equal, shows who they judge to be the better (and therefore more highly ranked) fighter.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa whoa whoa...

betting lines are anything but impartial. They’re not set at a representative line of the odds of one fighter to win. They’re set at a value that will entice the gamblers into the most even action and ensure the most returns for the bookmaker.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

See my comment re: betting exchanges ..

and I know exactly how bookmakers operate … I have the displeasure of knowing several of them :D

by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

think of it this way

In the LHW consensus rankings, Bader is #6 and Jon Jones is #7. Almost no one truly thinks Bader is the better fighter it seems, and you can rest assured that Jones will be a -250 or more favorite in that one.

Were someone to be such a huge Bader mark that they were willing to wager straight up with anyone, they would be over-run with bets on Jones before the first full day of business was done.

Hell, Rampage (2-2 over the last 3 years) is #4, Forrest Griffin (2-2 over last 3 years) is #5, and Anderson Silva, in 1 of the 3 most one-sided UFC fights ever against Forrest is #9. Does anyone seriously think Anderson doesn’t win at least 19/20 against Griffin?!?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

AND

.. they are completely impartial in terms of anything besides money.

The reason bookmakers’ odds are sometimes so shit (particularly in MMA) is that there’s imperfect knowledge of the market among consumers, few bookies covering MMA and very little competition / no betting exchanges in the US.

by papardelle fettucine on Nov 17, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

So

because you don’t agree with him, he is insane?

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
Cageside Seats
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko

by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Do we now the man’s methodology? Maybe he has an algorithm that he doesn’t deviate from. At least he’d be consistent.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean we don't know

But it seems fairly obvious that he ranks on hypothetical matchups. That’s the only way a guy coming off of a win over Huerta is ranked higher than a guy coming off of two wins over Bj Penn.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I just what him to explain it before I rush to judgement. Maybe he’s got a huge chart on his wall and somehow Alvarez comes out 1 along with Overem. Who knows?

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

9/11 truthers have charts too

That’s a fucking insane chart if it exists.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you have any idea of how poor taste that is?

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Jesus Christ

I think Jesse Holland’s rankings are insane. Insane! I said it! Pass around a jar for the victims of my crime!

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey Guys! Just got back! What'd I miss?

Holy shit I’m under siege! Take cover!

It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.

by Jesse Holland on Nov 17, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

lol

If you could handle this with more levity than the people I’m NOT talking about, I’m willing to downgrade your rankings to “unstable”.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't even "unstable"

be an upgrade from insane?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you explain why you have Dan Henderson at 19th? Behind Bisping and Paul Harris?

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

THAT'S INSANE

INSANE

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

And coming off a loss to a guy he ranks as the #2 MW.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

He has Shields at number 2?

Really? Wins over Henderson and Lawler shoot him all the way to two? Somebody needs to just sit and pick Subo’s rankings apart.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s justifiable. Shields beat # 3 and # 7, and # 1 beats # 2. Shields takes 2.

Either way though, Subo won’t give you a straight answer. If he’s defending Shields, he’s a top MW. If he’s not, he’s a blown-up WW.

The joys of delusion.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a hard time putting him over the UFC’s big three, which I guess Okami just broke into, but that’s just me.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

He won big fights at both classes, Sonnen fell creating a void and I can’t reflexively put Belfort at #2 just because he’s up for a title shot.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Where did you have Shields and Hendo respectively

Just before they fought?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Lulz

Yep, we’ve got a few of those “moving the goalposts” guys around here…y’all know who you are…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

His ranking of Hendo makes sense once you realize that Hendo is a much worse fighter since he left the UFC and pissed Dana off.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

No no no

Dana knew that Hendo was done as a fighter and dismissed him because Zuffa knows when to cut them.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

hellz no

Hendo was coming off of a TUF coaching season and a devastating KO of the Brit. Why would Zuffa put all of that time, money, effort into someone that they knew was “done as a fighter,” as you put it?? c’mon man

“White, though, said he wanted to re-sign Henderson but couldn’t agree on the money in a new deal.”

"We have a good relationship with Henderson, and there are no hard feelings," White said. "He had a figure he believed he was worth, and we had our own figure, and we weren’t able to get together."

by BeeTrain on Nov 17, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Can you tell me

where you found that? Or let me borrow/rent yours? Sure would come in handy around here…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I forgot.

I must always remember to celebrate the losses of any highly ranked fighter outside of the UFC, because then all the top fighters will be in the UFC and they are preventing that from happening.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

And then any big name signing that comes to the UFC and loses is just proof of Zuffa’s superiority.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell ya what

Dana caught a lot of heat for letting him go and then no credit whatsoever when he looked fucking prescient.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

because he can't defend takedowns to save his life

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

Yeah, that’s it.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure – he’s had exactly one fight since and was dominated by a welterweight. Inactivity hurts you quite a bit in my rankings – I reward victories in the interim (Bisping beat Akiyama). Dan also fell because it appears his next fight will be outside of the division.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

And he beat Kang

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe its like the Geico caveman

in the fantasy football league whose brilliant program deduced that a long snapper (iirc) was the player to pick #1 overall…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

x-1,000u+1,000,000~u=r

Whereas x is the fighter’s actual value, u is if he is with the UFC, and ~u is he is not.

Geno – I disagree with some people over some rankings, and nobody’s 175 fighter ballot is exactly like mine, but I find Overeem at #1 (and Fedor at #2!) and Edgar at #1 to be completely indefensible. I wrote, like, a bunch of stuff about it.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope you meant his ranking of Alvarez at # 1, not Frankie.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

(facepalm)

My kingdom for an edit button.

So in conclusion, yes. Jesse Holland is insane until i hear him defend Overeem at #1 and Alvarez at #1.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think those two should be number 1 either but just because I don’t agree with him doesn’t mean he is insane. If someone said Frank Edgar was really the number 1 fighter in the world before he ever fought Penn people would have said this same shit you’re spouting now. Then he beat Penn twice and now it’s okay. Maybe he’s ahead of the curve. Maybe Overeem would beat the number 1 and maybe Alvarez would as well.

Point is, it’s stupid to call someone insane just because you don’t agree with them.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
Cageside Seats
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko

by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

You're calling Subo out for being blunt?

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

No it isn't

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not libelous, it’s just rude and unnecessarily dismissive.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Basically Subo's style.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve tried numerous times to engage Jesse about it, but the closest I got to a defense from him was “Brett Rogers = Shane Carwin”. My pieces about the rankings weren’t rude at all.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

No...they weren't at all...

but repeatedly calling him insane is rude. But whatever. I’m just saying…

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not a term I use lightly. I mean, #1? And Fedor right below him, above Werdum and JDS and everyone else? And Alvarez too?

I mean, “curious” is more diplomatic, but it doesn’t really encompass the spectrum of my disbelief here.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not a tem you use lightly

and yet you are applying it to MMA rankings? Are you fucking serious with that?

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
Cageside Seats
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko

by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I read it as "It's not a term I use lightly, but this guy has Overeem at number 1, it applies"

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

What I’m saying is I don’t call everyone that disagrees with my rankings “insane”. Putting those two relatively unaccomplished fighters at #1 speaks to a complete ignorance of the only way prizefighting rankings have ever been determined (see Luke’s comment below). This isn’t God v Allah or Democrat v Republican, it’s black v white.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Full disclosure.

Now that I work for MMA Mania, I’ve gotten to know Jesse a little bit and talked to him damn near everyday. He is also my boss. Is he insane? Yes, but not in the way you are implying. If he put them there, then he had a damn good reason to do so. There are any number of reasons I or anyone else who has ever read your shit, could call you insane. But I won’t do it because that would be fucking stupid.

You can think what you want about these rankings, which I can’t say enough are utter and complete bullshit, but seriously, it’s sad that you just pass off anyone who doesn’t agree with you and kind of sad that you would call someone that and get all passionate over some stupid ass rankings that are going to change in about, oh, I don’t know, the next ten minutes.

Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
MMA Mania
Cageside Seats
Follow me on Twitter at GenoMrosko

by Geno Mrosko on Nov 17, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve been called much, much worse. I also consider myself the dispassionate one in most discussions. I’ve written at length about the absurdity I find in Holland’s rankings (and he was hardly the only one I questioned), and I’d love to hear a response from him through whatever channel he pleases.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish the different SBNation bloggers started a brawl

not unlike that seen in Anchorman.

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Judging by Brookhouse's boxing pieces

He’d dance around and piece me up.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I was gonna say

‘Brent, where did get that grenade?’

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

You, dispassionate?!?

Seriously? You should go back and re-read some of our back-and-forths about rankings in general, and the whole Overeem’s record, Carwin/Rogers comparisons and the like. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your panties get knotted rather easily on certain topics…

Seriously though, at some point, I hope someone will give a logical, intelligent rebuttal to some of these points…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not how rankings work

You don’t use them to fucking be “ahead of the curve” and show everyone how smart you are. You do them as a reflection of the accomplishments of the fighters. Hypothetical matchmaking is, at most, a tiebreaker.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel there is.

I feel you’re either doing them to accurately reward fighters for their performance against quality opponents, or you’re using them to show off. One is right and one is wrong.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Since you like to claim subjectivity has no place in the rankings

What, specifically is your detail criteria that you use?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

detail = detailed

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Hypothetical matchmaking is, at most, a tiebreaker.

Subjectivity breaks ties. It doesn’t determine the landscape.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Again

What, specifically is your criteria? Or at least what, specifically, are your parameters?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, but not a hard fast rule.

Anybody can make rankings based on opinion, “insanity”, etc., Consider someone who isn’t part of the BE meta rankings and just espouses their opinion. Again, no hard fast rules.

by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait...what?

So you are saying if Brock was 8-0 at HW over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy and another “NC” against a top-10 guy (Cro Cop) where he was almost Jonesian in his domination prior to the nut crack, he would somehow be ranked #30?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

That's another thing

How should that CroCop fight be ranked? I tend to give it weight.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

but guys like Subo, who argued that the Hamill DQ should actually count against Jones (in another thread obviously) rather than be treated for what it was – a domination that (in Jones’ case should have been stopped long before) wasn’t credited as a win because of a rule violation at the very end. For the official record, of course they don’t count as wins (although Jones’ should have been NC), but for rankings and future match-up purposes, those with sense count them for what they saw actually happen.

If reggie bush’s usc teams had to give their title back, does it make them any less of winners or less dominant in anyone’s eyes besides the historians?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm completely consistent there

Jones doesn’t get credit for what he did to Hamill and Overeem doesn’t get credit for what he did to CC because neither could keep their dick in their pants long enough to avoid cheating.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

orrr.. you’re just wrong with jones. He hit him with a SINGLE “illegal” strike and the fight was stopped due to a misunderstanding with a deaf fighter. But you go on with that diatribe, i’m sure you’re going to get a lot of people pissed off still.

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s because Jon Jones is treated like the fucking love child of Minerva and that hot chick from Grown Ups around these parts. He’s a kid, he’s a prospect and his toughest test is upcoming.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That's true

But that doesn’t mean he didn’t demolish Hamill.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I completely agree with you.

On the comparison btw Reem/CC and Jones/ Hamill, i definitely DO NOT.

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't use illegal strikes!

It’s very, very simple! If you do and the fight ends on them, all I remember about the fight is that you couldn’t control yourself long enough to get the victory, and that is a Key Goddamn Component of being a good MMA fighter.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Not all wins are created equal

Not all losses are created equal. We should be able to look at them and take more than just a W or an L from the fight.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly!!!

Neither all wins nor all loses are, or should be weighted, equal.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

but they aren’t what ended the fight!!! it was all miscommunication because of Hamill’s elbow!!

That fight should’ve already been stopped, Jones was in mount and raining down elbows.

i don’t want to argue. we aren’t going to change each others opinion so there is no point.

Agree to disagree, Steve Mazzagatti SUCKS though.

Colin Cowherd is more annoying than the Progressive radio commercials.

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

FINALLY

You admit your own subjective bias, that was plain for all to see, yet you tried to hide behind an illusion of impartial objectivity.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm a Jones fan, but it was more than one elbow

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

You say that, and

I can agree on Overeem, and I would on Jones too if it was a NC rather than a bullshit DQ loss.

And yet you have argued, repeatedly, that the DQ loss should actually count against Jones, rather than for him or, more intelligently, completely neutral.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, the only thing I’ve ever said is that Jon Jones lost to Matt Hamill. And he did.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

No, iirc

In a discussion regard Jones and Bader, you argued that Jones’ DQ loss should count against him for rankings purposes because of the idiocy involved (my words there), whereas I argued that both Bader and Jones were unbeaten (which they are).

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

No. Jon Jones isn’t being punished by being lower than Ryan Bader. Ryan Bader IS undefeated and has a more impressive resume. Jones sure as hell didn’t get to advance up the rankings on a LOSS.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Ironically

I think Joe Rogan or Dana said he actually would.

it was right after the fight, either in the ring or during the press conference.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Jones should have advanced on the basis of dominating his opponent in all aspects of the fight – a fight which continued well after it should have been stopped due to referee error. The fact he was given a technical loss has little bearing on the facts of the fight as they apply to rankings, and Hamill himself has said as much.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Real talk
I’m not going to call the media stupid like Dana but let me put it this way; how can a real MMA insider put a Brock Lesnar above Fedor Emelianenko or even JDS.

"Josh was not very sportsmanship."

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

Overeem is killing them softly with logic oops his opinions.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

rankings suck,,,,PERIOD!

by higgledy-piggledy on Nov 17, 2010 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

rankings suck and people are stupid

styles make fights, who cares whose top 10. overeems talented and i wanna see him in the UFC

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Nov 17, 2010 2:11 PM EST reply actions  

Rankings are tools by bloggers and the media who need some attention

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

Rankings are valuable talking points and provide a general overview of the top end of a division that provides for a snapshot in time of where the division stood. Of course we could all argue fighters should move x spots up and y spots down but that doesn’t make them totally without value.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I respectfully disagree

Ranking in tennis maybe do matter? Maybe in basketball? But not in MMA when top fighters often end up not fighting each other. It’s a lot of speculation and what you have you done for me lately. That’s what bloggers love. Something to grab on and stir the pot .

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

They seem meaningless until you’re trying to remember where the division stood in June 2003 and trying to unpack the value of a fighter’s wins at that time. Divisional snapshots have value.

Of course we love a good controversy that gets page views and discussion going, but rankings can provide both of those.

Does that mean that they’re the end-all-be-all of a fighter’s relative worth? Absolutely not.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Brent

I am a tech blogger and my colleagues love nothing more than to just compare Android phones vs. iPhone and rank them. So yes. The controversy art does sell. Here is the thing though. In tennis, nobody doubts, Nadal is #1. In MMA, half the people say Werdum should be #1, half say Cain should be. Or worse, some have Overeem as their #1. The same at light-weight.

Also, wasn’t it just a short while ago that Couture was #2 heavyweight behind Fedor. Then he lost to Lesnar and he was considered a bum for doing so. Just saying

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Couture was #2 when he was going to fight Fedor, then magically became “a natural LHW” after Brock put the stamp on him. The systematic denigration of Brock’s victims is worse even than the systematic inflating of Overeem’s accomplishments at HW in MMA.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The denigration of Brock's victims and the pumping up of Fedor's future opponents

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The Grim!

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you suggesting Arlovski was not beating Fedor? :-)

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you implying that

Nog was shit during his prime because he always looked like he was getting his ass handed to him, right up until he submitted them?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it happens

with every fighter who has a large, loyal following – and it happens with both wins and losses…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

The fact that people are stupid and love to revise history based on the current doesn’t devalue rankings to me, it just means that they’re used incorrectly.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

this is one of the most important reasons for rankings, I think. It helps provide good evidence against the revisionists out there.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I totally agree

I caught myself literally laughing out loud researching the info for this discussion upon realizing that Mir was #3 when Carwin destroyed him (and Brock, at 3-1, was #5).

BTW, can you please have the link fixed to the pre-2010 rankings on BE, its been down for some time.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Searching for them is easy.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course I can go to the trouble to google them, but

when the link at the bottom (Showing 1 – 10 of 20 Older) – with the older being a link, the linked page returns this message:

SB Nation
404: The page you were looking for doesn’t exist.

This page may have moved, or you may have mistyped the address or followed a bad link.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

No, use the search thing in the top right corner.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Good idea, but by searching for heavyweight rankings 2009 I got:

Results 1 – 10 of 122 for “heavyweight rankings 2009” in Bloody Elbow

    * Stories (122)
    * FanPosts (102)
    * FanShots (3)
    * Comments (17)

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:37 AM EST up reply actions  

For anything older than a year or so, try “metarankings” or “meta-rankings”.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 18, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Still gives way too many to wade through, going 10 at a time

Thanks for the help, but I’m going to have to hope that at some point they will see fit to fix the link.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

My question is not whether they exist somewhere,

but why the link is broken on all weight class pages.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t you have to know history to revise it? I guarantee the guy making all the noise about other people’s rankings hasn’t seen half the PRIDE or numbered UFC events. He certainly doesn’t have an understanding of the lighter weight classes.

His broader point that the electorate might be more carefully considered is a good one. Of course he’s talking himself out of a job.

by Jonathan Snowden on Nov 17, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Because PRIDE fights are so relevant to today’s rankings, amirite?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Who says Werdum should be Ranked #1?
I know JDS never said anything like that.

I always thought Couture as the #2 heavyweight was laughable. See Tim Sylvia’s bad back.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll believe it when I see it.
I’m ready to fight 2 or 3 times in 2011!

"Josh was not very sportsmanship."

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:12 PM EST reply actions  

Said the same thing for 2010. He will fight once for SF next year. That I will bet on.

by Cpt Mason on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Could very well prove correct

but there is only so much control a fighter has over that. In fact, what are the odds based on 2010 that any top Strikeforce HWs have more than 2 fights?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I was very impressed.

"Josh was not very sportsmanship."

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

He's well spoken.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He sounds more like a man

who should be running a top organization than Dana does…then again, PR is not the only part of the job…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Absolutley

I had to go and make sure this interview wasn’t given in English.

But yes, running a company is more than the PR element. I personally have no idea how good a strategist or negotiator Dana White may be. I assume he’s pretty good at both, but there’s just no way for me to tell.

by Schwizzles on Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

At some point, when the

growth moderates, Dana will have to either evolve himself, or give way to a David Stern type to continue the mainstream growth.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

He's a smart cookie.

And a scarry man.
Dana needs to sign him asap.

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not American

It’s a plus

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely, he’s a smart guy who knows how to speak. Whether you agree with him or not, this is a good example of him at least being reasonable and constructive in what he’s saying. Love me some Reem.

by Horselover Fat on Nov 17, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Money on his mind

Ask him a question, and he’ll will tell you the answer that leads to the most money.

How much do you think he made last year fighting cans? Or this year is Strikeforce/K-1?

He stands to gain millions more in the US if he can develop a mainstream following and a good relationship with Dana. He has it all. The talent, the looks, the body, the mind, the mouth. If Overeem can’t blow up in the UFC no one can. The only thing that could be better is if he was American.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sensible answers from Overeem. Good to see he didn’t fly off the handle like some people do when talking about rankings.

by nastyem on Nov 17, 2010 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

Nothing really seems to bother Overeem

He never really loses his cool.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

“I’m not going to call the media stupid like Dana but let me put it this way; how can a real M.M.A. insider put a Brock Lesnar above Fedor Emelianenko or even JDS.”

Ding ding ding….we have a winner!!!

by BeeTrain on Nov 17, 2010 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

Quick, hide this post before Josh Thomson sees it...

Yeah...protect you thumb...it's the only thing that differentiates you from the monkey...

by dancingChicken on Nov 17, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

Ha, good point. Why do they sign these guys to just sit around?

"Josh was not very sportsmanship."

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m going to start a promotion tomorrow and sign the first five fat people I see. Until Dana lets five of his heavyweights fight my guys, he can’t never (sic) justify his claim.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Can I head up the lightweight division? I think that “#1 Lightweight In the World” would be an excellent addition to my resume.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Nov 17, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

This is the second time you made me laugh in a short period!

Starting to like you Memitim.
But don´t worry, not all people from Amsterdam are gay!

Let´s see what Overeem does after the K-1 final.
K-1 is still more important in Holland than MMA, but i hope he will join the UFC soon. Waiting for Werdum is not a good option now he said he first want to fight outside Strikeforce.

It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)

by Sanderman on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

With the popularity of K-1 over even the UFC’s brand of MMA, I don’t blame Reem at all.

Having said that, should he win the K-1 title, I would fully expect him to head for the UFC asap unless SF starts making things happen, matchmaking wise…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I love Amsterdam. Top 5 city for me.
Last I heard Reem wasn’t going to fight in the US till May. I think Fedor will fight Werdum before The Reem does. Which will stay in line with fighters getting title shots coming off losses.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

In an earlier interview....

Alistair already said it is more logical for Fedor to first face bigfoot before getting a shot at the winner of Werdum vs Overeem.

It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)

by Sanderman on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s when The Reem starts driving me a little nuts. He starts telling other fighters who they should be fighting when he only shows up in the US with the frequency of something like the Olympic Games.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

You really can’t blame ‘REem. He’s trying to get his money and looking for challenges. Apparently Strikeforce doesn’t have their things together. Most of the HW have some issues.
It’s not AListair is not fighting, sitting on the bench. He’s staying active.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve gone down this road before but fighting in the US, defending his title, once every four years is really not acceptable. Especially when he is fighting a ton of cans in Japan.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Fighting K-1

is not the same thing as fighting cans with all respect.
Coker is the one who needs to put it together, not Overeem.
Overeem challenged Fedor and Werdum, what could he do more, fight Herschel Walker?

Despite the fact that i think Dana is a dickhead, i think Overeem should go to the UFC to prove who he is.
I like Coker but he acts like a pussy, he should decide what happens in Strikeforce and not the fighters.
Talking about that, i need to give some credit to Dana for this, because i know he will finally gets what he wants. Dana knows it, Overeem knows it and also Coker knows it!

It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)

by Sanderman on Nov 17, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

When I say cans I mean the MMA cans like Fujita and Thompson, not K-1 fighters.
My primary objection is he should have given up the belt last fall once he entered K-1. Brett v Fedor should have been for the title and Werdum should be the champ right now. That’s how it should have went down and things would be so much simpler right now if it was done that way. But, like you said, Coker is a pussy. No way Dana would let his HW champ disappear for four years and let him keep the belt.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

There was, for all intents and purposes, no SF HW division during much of that time. And Overeem wasn’t under contract for much of that time as well.

If it weren’t for M-1 trying to play their matchmaking games, Fedor’s first or, at worst, second fight in Strikeforce should have against Overeem for the belt.

But M-1 wanted to be the shot-callers and insisted on a lay-up fight against Werdum after Rogers, being lured in by the siren call of the PPV $$$ they saw by having the third fight against Overeem….and here we are, still waiting for SOMEBODY to fight SOMEBODY in SF…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said

"A man that does not fall, does not stand up."

by CROOKS on Nov 17, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand that Overeem wasn’t under contract for about two of the four years we are talking about. But, if you are a MMA champ, you defend the belt or you lose it. Overeem was under contract for all of 2009, he did have an injury, but he still should have fought at some point for SF. The title should have been vacated.
Also, the plan was for Reem to face Rogers and Fedor to face Werdum on the CBS show. No one here in the states knew who Overeem was and he was barely top 10. He needed a fight before Fedor in the US against real competition. Someone who the fans knew. Thus, the Rogers fight. But, M-1 was renegotiating and Reem was still doing K-1 at the time so it never happened and you have that crap CBS card as a result.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

He has been the Strikeforce HW champ

For 3 years and 2 days, not 4 years. Otherwise, I agree in principal with what you are getting at – Overeem, Fedor/M-1 and particularly Strikeforce got together to not just crap the bed, but to turn it into a public toilet…

Damn frustrating as a fan, that is for sure…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Acceptable? He should vacate his title?

You sound more sour as a fan than anything else. You also sound sour about M-1 and Scott Coker’s inaction. It is frustrating as a fan but am going to be mad at Overeem for getting injured? Werdum just recently said that he would like to fight in Japan before a rematch with Fedor. That’s not cool for fans who want fights that “really matters” blah, blah, blah but I guess this is what happens when you allow your fights room to breathe.

I’m still not mad at Overeem. We’re still getting some cool cross-promotional fights. Coker may be a pussy but it is looking great for the sport. Overeem is right in my book, Dana White can talk about having the best HW till he’s blue in the face but he’s not trying to sully his product with cross-promotional fights. I care little about that talk about how that doesn’t make sense business wise. I’m just a fan.

Did I get to see him fight? Check yes. That’s acceptable.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 18, 2010 5:51 AM EST up reply actions  

When I say it is unacceptable and he should have vacated the title this is my reasoning. He puts K-1 over defending his belt two years in a row. Either you are the champ and a MMA fighter first or your not. If your not, then don’t gum up the works, if you are defend your belt twice a year.
And when I say 4 years I’m including the time he says it will take before he returns to Strikeforce, which last we heard isn’t till May at the earliest.

by memitim on Nov 18, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

And who is he supposed to defend it against

after Rogers? And when? Overeem is not completely without fault in this of course, but what else could he reasonably be expected to do seeking a SF fight?

I can’t imagine that he particularly cares one way or another who he fights for at any given time, nor should he, just that he is fighting…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

He should get away with whatever he can get away with. Strikeforce should have had him fighting last fall. They let him go do K-1 and keep the belt. It should have been simple. You can go fight in K-1, but you have to vacate the title.
As far as who to fight, Strikeforce could have offered Werdum, Arlovski (who he was supposed to fight in June of ‘09), Bigfoot, Rogers. It’s such a joke and a pain in the ass in matchmaking that he holds the belt. Werdum should be the champ right now and the question should be whether Fedor gets a rematch after losing the belt or who the real #1 contender is, Overeem or Bigfoot, and probaby should face each other for the right to be #1 contender.

by memitim on Nov 18, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I really think that if Coker would nut up

the fighters would fall in line and fights would get made – its like there is this paralysis by analysis throughout the org.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

rec’d

Before anyone starts talking about Strikeforce vs UFC how about we get Strikeforce vs Strikeforce first.

by who me on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

People said that I am skeptical. I doubt that
. The Ratings are nothing more than an attention grab for the media. It gives them something to write\argue about. It’s the P4P and even weight class rankings = The BCS.
If the NCAA had a playoff system then college football writers would have half of their material gone.

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

It’s not strange that Dana is making such a claim but if he really thinks that his heavyweight division is the best in the world he should let 5 heavyweights of the UFC fight 5 heavyweights from Strikeforce otherwise he can’t never justify his claim that UFC has the best heavyweights in the world.

He has a point, but JDS and Big Nog both did beat Werdum…

And the HW division is the ONLY division that seems to have any real merit in Strikeforce. But I guess they’ve got to start somewhere.

"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

“any real merit” = “more than three fighters”

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I was trying to be nice… you can try that sometime.

"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Part of your sig is dedicated to my benevolence, so whatevz.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess that means I’m special.

"You are correct. I suck." - Derek Suboticki to me
"It's meaningless to just live. It's meaningless to just fight. I want to win!" - Ichigo Kurosaki

by Keren on Nov 17, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't worry Keren

Once Reem is in the UFC Subo will be all over his nuts.

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Overeem's record at HW over the last 3 years compared to the UFC's Big 4:

Cain certainly has a better resume, and it could be argued that Lesnar does as well despite the losses (and if you don’t look too closely at the Carwin fight), but JDS’ is at best equal to Overeem’s and Carwin’s, no matter how vivid Subo’s imagination is, just doesn’t match up:

Overeem is is 8-0 at heavyweight over the last 3 years, with one victory over a top-10 heavyweight (Brett Rogers, #8). His only other ranked opponent (Cro Cop at #9) was ruled a NC after Overeem completely dominated the fight on the ground and on the feet before "cracking" Cro Cop’s nads…

Shane Carwin is 5-1 at heavyweight over the last 3 years, with one victory over a top-10 opponent (Frank Mir).

Cain Velasquez is 7-0 over the last 3 years, with 2 wins over top-10 guys (Lesnar, Big Nog).

JDS is 7-0 over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Werdum).

Lesnar is 4-2 over the last 3 years, with 3 wins over top-10 guys (Couture, Mir, Carwin)

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

That is all that I included.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

The person who let Fujita, at this point in his career, fight Overeem should have whatever credentials and license taken away from them. Fujita had no business being in that fight and The Reem damn near killed the guy.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, but

can you honestly say, were you in Reem’s shoes that you would rather not fight than take the fight that was offered to you?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

He was offered Arlovski and turned it down and took Fujita.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Or FEG decided to have Fujita fight him instead on their New Year’s show since he’s a bigger name in Japan.

But don’t let the truth spoil some good bs.

by nastyem on Nov 17, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

No. Bas Boon confirmed that they declined Arlovski because Reem fought in K-1 that month. FEG then offered Fujita and they took the fight. I’l try not to let that truth spoil any other bs you want to bring up.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That being the same Bas Boon

you are always saying can’t be trusted? But seriously, even if that’s the case, it makes sense if they were insisting on having Overeem fight on NYE – Overeem would need a legit camp to prepare for Arlovski…Fujita, he could probably take on a days notice.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, the same Bas Boon that can’t be trusted. He lies and pulls just as much crap as M-1.
I don’t have a problem with Reem taking an easier fight after competing in K-1 earlier in the month. I have a problem with FEG more for putting Fujita in their with him. That was downright reckless.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

It has never been revealed how or why that played out like it did

IIRC, Arlovski’s people said they were notified by DREAM that Overeem was fighting Fujita instead at the NYE show.

I have no direct, personal knowledge of the situation and, who really knows, maybe Coker nixed it hoping to have that fight in SF?

You can’t seriously imagine Overeem would try to “duck” Arlovski, unless your hate for the Reem has grown since we last discussed this topic…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Reem was honestly remorseful after that

I think he may be done taking squash matches like that. Since then he’s fought Rogers and K1. ITs become unsafe for him to fight the James Thompsons of the world.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Whatever Overeem is taking...

makes his brain grow.

 A lot of UFC fighters haven’t really struck me as academic folks. Sure, there are guys like Florian that come across as intelligent. But Overeem has a very calm awareness of rational thought that most fighters don’t use.

Rankings currently don’t consider potential. Jon Jones is probably a better fighter than most if not all the fighters above him. But He won’t be ranked that high until he beats someone higher up. But magically that same fighter now has a higher ranking with the same potential.

I think Overeem would give fits to most of the UFC guys. I could really see him knocking Cain out too.

by dr cagelove on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

Well, that’s the thing, you have to kind of prove your potential. I think it is easy to look at Reem’s physique and his dominance over the cans of cans but you put him in the cage with someone as technically proficient as Cain and then we will see. Could he knock him out? Sure. If Cain stands in front of him with his hands at his side and does his best Rocky impression versus Clubber. But, that’s not going to happen. Cain is going to take him down and The Reem is going to have expend energy and get oxygen to those inflated muscles. Then shit gets real.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I largely agree with this

At some point you certainly have to prove it, and I think Cain is the HW that is the most likely to beat Reem. Probable even.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

WORD!

I completely agree with everything REEM says here. He’s not full of shit like Dana is.

by Andreaz on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

Straight up, Alistair is the MAN

he may not be number one, but then again some rankings had Chael over Anderson when they fought. All rankings are awful. Overeem would be top 10 in my book because of his experience, skills, and the small amount of tape we have on his top 10 performances. Say what you want, but he completely obliterated the Brett Rogers hype and made him look childish in the process.

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:23 PM EST reply actions  

What I take from this

Overeem doesn’t give a shit about rankings.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:25 PM EST reply actions  

I really liked this comment:

I’m fully aware that I have to prove myself, I know I can defeat anybody so it’s my job to prove it to my fans and to my doubters.
The man has definitely won me over.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Yep, that statement pretty much did it for me.

None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"

by alicks on Nov 17, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm a fan.

He actually seemed really apologetic after he knocked out Fujita. And how public he is about his support of Marloes Coenen. I like him.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, good on Uber for feeling bad about destroying a guy that had no business being in the ring with him.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

WIN!

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Overeem said he was really upset.

He put the man in a coma and nearly took his life. Not only that, it was a guy a lot of people(including Alistair) looked up to.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Then do your job, Reem. Stop fucking talking about it and sign a contract for the Fedor fight. Carry it around and ask everyone you see “have you seen Vadim? I need to speak to Vadim.”

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Lulz

Kind of hard to sign a contract you have never been offered, don’t you think?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Demand it, then. Don’t show up to defend your title ONCE in TWO YEARS, then disappear to K-1 again, then cry about how other fighters (that were more consistent with diverticulitis than you were healthy) are ranked.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

He's crying?

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

No

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He seems pretty chill about it all to me.

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

He doesn’t really seem that upset at all, and he ends by saying he has to prove it.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

“Crying” is kind of ridiculous.

Let’s see any of these guys go up against other fighters in their disciplines. Not happening.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Haw. He forgot to add that Bas has him as number one largely based on the fact that he is Dutch. Bas does not care if you disagree with his rankings, they are based on his opinion and his whims, at least he’s upfront and honest about them.

by bigstupidsmile on Nov 17, 2010 2:25 PM EST reply actions  

The Reem reads Bloody Elbow

http://twitter.com/#!/Alistairovereem/status/4979483341758464

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Nov 17, 2010 2:32 PM EST reply actions  

i don’t have twitter, what’d he say?

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

@Alistairovereem
Alistair Overeem
Bloodyelbow.com translated a dutch interview I gave in reaction to Dana White check out the link http://bit.ly/aDNiyn

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.

by Damon O. on Nov 17, 2010 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

niiiice luke should tweet back about getting alistair on his show

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Nov 17, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Make it happen Luke!

"A man that does not fall, does not stand up."

yeah just calm down about the big ape.

by CROOKS on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome!

Hope you get it done, looking forward to it.

by Horselover Fat on Nov 17, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Why wasn’t I invited?

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you The Reem? No? Then you’re just as useless as all the other untermensch.

by Horselover Fat on Nov 17, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Who are you to ask if he’s the REEM?

If he is, then you’d be feeling pretty dumb, huh?

I have it on good authority that ufc4 is, in fact, Jon Jones.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Jon Jones would pray for ufc4’s soul if he knew of him.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

No way

Look at his pic, ufc4/Bones Jones is posing next to a Mexican dude with a sweet stache.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You are if you bring a bottle of Jameson

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I ain't bringing shit

My presence is all that is ever required.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey man

I clearly said BYOB.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Looks like this all degenerated as expected.

But one thing is undeniably true: people are afraid to fight overeem. Bas was 100% right about that, I dont care if you agree with him/like/dislike etc., People are definitely afraid to fight overeem.

Number 2, just use your imagination to simulate an overeem vs lesnar fight. Brock would be asleep after a jab.

by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting Fedor Theory

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.valetudo.ru/&ei=Au3iTOijO4S8sQOm-bRm&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://valetudo.ru/%26hl%3Den%26site%3Dwebhp%26prmd%3Div

"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"

by DamnSevern on Nov 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

That's quality.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s the most interesting thing I’ve read about the situation. If true it confirms most my wild theories.

by John Nash on Nov 18, 2010 3:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed

And, based on the bits and pieces we have heard elsewhere, it certainly sounds plausible on several fronts…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 3:57 AM EST up reply actions  

After what Cain did to Brock it’s silly to give Brock a top 5 spot, but that’s my opinion.

WIN!

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

Uhmm yeah. I felt that way when he defeated Couture and he was shot all the way to the top 3. Lesnar ranked higher than Emelianenko?!? OK. I never brought that load of crap and I never thought Lesnar was ranked higher than Velasquez, Carwin* or JDS. (* that was prior to their fight)

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Note, I don’t have sense because I still think Carwin is better than Lesnar . . . even though he loss.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

BUT BUT BUT

Brock is so BIG!
And he’s got lots of FANS!

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

After Werdum tapped Fedor in less time than I can hold my breath underwater

it’s silly to give Fedor a top 5 spot.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

…I have him sixth.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

What do 33 fights have to do with "recent"ness?

What Fedor did 10, 5 or even 3 years ago isn’t a reflection of the fighter he is today.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree somewhat.

But now we’re getting back to the methodology behind rankings like we discussed above. Most people think its all about right now, but for me and some others I prefer if it’s more subjective and you can actually grasp a fighters abilities. But by that system yes, that is true. The only problem is you’re then throwing werdum aside.

by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it kind of says that loss, especially the way it happened, was a mistake and that he is likely still the fighter who before wasn’t beaten for a decade. He took his hit in the rankings but if he wrecks Werdum in a rematch then what?

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Then he avenges his loss like Lesnar did

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

And, prior to the Cain demo

Lesnar was #1 in the rankings. IMO, should Cain lose and Fedor win his rematch, Fedor is back at #1.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly. If he avenges his loss in the same decisive fashion as Lesnar did Mir then he is right back. Except instead of being 4-1 Fedor will be 33-2.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

He fought 35 fights in the last couple years?

Because according to the way you want to look at things, the Bulls are the favorites to win the championship because they won 6 a few years ago.

But if he beats Werdum and Lesnar doesn’t beat a top 10 fighter, I would rank Fedor above Lesnar….if that win comes before Spring.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but the Bulls are a bad analogy because they have spent the past decade mostly in and out of the lottery. Fedor lost once. It’s more like Ali losing to Norton. He avenged that and went on to finishing a career as the Greatest.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Unlike most others who feel this way i'm fine with fedor getting beat.

I mean he got beat. there aren’t any stars or appendices beside that result. brock lost. fedor lost. thats it. The second part I do agree with. If Fedor would win a rematch what happens? I can see it now, people dropping werdum out of the top 10 and not moving fedor…..oh the ignorance.

by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Over the last 3 years

Fedor is 4-1, with 3 wins over top-10 guys. During that same period, Lesnar is 4-2, with 3 wins over top-10 guys.

This, in a nutshell, is my beef with the “objectivity” of the rankings.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock wins on strength of schedule

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

To me

Brock was #1 because his most difficult fights were his most recent, whereas the rankings of Fedor’s opponents has been on a steady downward trend over that 3 year period.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess when he dispatched 2 UFC heavyweight champions who were marketed as the SH*T it really didn’t matter because Dana White quickly dismissed both fighters as being anything special.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Who marketed AA and Sylvia as "the shit"?

Maybe you added “the” incorrectly. Sylvia was 1-2 and bounced out. AA was left to die on the vine.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

They were UFC heavyweight champions, it kind of goes with the territory.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

The diffence is

Brock got outclassed.
Fedor got caught.
Not the same.

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

umm.....

Brock got caught, with like 10 shots to the face

by F'n Clownshoes on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock got caught by a bunch of punches

Fedor got outsmarted and outclassed. See how that works.

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

Honestly, not very well. Rollo has you on that one.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

thank you

don’t argue with SC about Brock.
He’s usually very reasonable, but when it comes to Brock he’s a hopeless mark.

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

i was gonna do that next.

by F'n Clownshoes on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock got caught?

No. Brock got hiss ass whooped plain and simple.

by davidm1122 on Nov 17, 2010 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Moreover

Fedor got caught in a way that is highly unlikely to be repeated, and in a rematch Werdum will still be a +500 or worse dog. Any of the truly top guys at HW beat Werdum 8/10 or 9/10 times. Is he a can? Not at all, but he is in no way top-3.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

If the Fedor/Werdum fight happened again, I don’t think Werdum would be the favorite.

The Brock/Cain fight looked like if that fight was fought a hundred times Cain whoop destroy Brock the same way exact 75 times.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

So that makes Fedor's loss worse, right?

He lost to such an inferior fighter

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Its MMA

Jens Pulver beat BJ Penn. WTF???

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You're missing my point

I find this whole line of thinking facetious

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Bro, you bashed Fedor +10 times in just the last 5 minutes. I thought people were done bashing Fedor…

by ontite on Nov 17, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm facetiously "bashing" him by turning people's own "logic" against them

How you could not see this I don’t know?

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

huh?

It only counts as turning it against them if your point holds weight or wins he debate.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

And it does

Reppin' the NYMMAI.
Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun . Imma write til the wheels fall off.

by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

To whom?

No wonder you found that train of thought ‘facetious’. You didn’t actually understand my line of thinking and were being facetious yourself. Way to project. Defense Mechanisms Activate!

Ryo Chonan submitted Anderson Silva, who would you take in a rematch?

How about Mir/Lesnar 1? What did Mir/Lensar 2 look like?

Conversely, Rampage beat the shit out of Chuck, people Called it a fluke, until he did it again.

Brock looked out classed in every way during his fight with Cain.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I've got add

Fedor’s arm was going to break, he forced himself to tap one time.

Brock was being punched and scream “NO. NO. NO.”

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Cain takes broke 9/10 times, Fedor takes Werdum 9/10 times. Aside from those who might quibble and say 8/10, I don’t think anyone serious would seriously disagree with that…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely not intentionally

I’m being straight forward.

For that particular reason, I find Brock’s loss a bit more damning than Fedor’s. Cain’s win seemed much more logical or methodical, for the lack of a better word. Not to say that luck/probability isn’t always involved.

The other factor is their records, Fedor fell to 31-1. Brock is now 5-2. A loss counts a lot more statistically to Brock.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Completely agree

Fedor got overconfident after his first escape and jumped back into Werdum’s guard adjacent to the cage and got caught…no way he makes the same mistake again.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

And who do you have ahead of him? Cain, JDS, and Werdum are the only three who I could rate about him based on accomplishments over the last 3 years.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Brock and Carwin. Fedor is 1-1 in his last two fights, defeating Brett Rogers (1-2 in his last three with a squeaker over Warpath) and Werdum (whom was 2-1, losing to JDS and beating Mike Kyle and Bigfoot). Carwin’s only loss is to Brock, Brock’s only loss in that span is to the current #1 and he beat Carwin.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't buy this at all

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

In the last 3 years – which seems to be everyone’s magic timeframe – Brock is 4-2 with a loss against an unranked opponent and the #3 HW and wins against #12, #7, #3, and #3.
Carwin is 5-1 with wins against #9 Gonzaga and #3 Mir and a loss to #2 (going into the fight) Brock.
Fedor is 3-1 with wins against #5, #2, #8, and a loss to #9.
But I’m sure you can find a way to delude yourself that you’re not being partisan when you say you that there are 5 fighters that deserve a higher ranking.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, Sherdog bumped Brock to #1 between Fedor’s loss and 116.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Since we “love and defend the Metas as the best possible system” I generally stick to the BE consensus instead of cherry picking one ranking that gives me the results I want.

by John Nash on Nov 17, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

They simply hadn't updated yet

Fedor wasn’t keeping that spot after a loss. Brock Lesnar became #1 that night, and the fight between he and Carwin was for the #1 spot.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m waiting for Belfort to defeat Anderson Silva and then to be launched #1 rankings.

Mean while Dan Henderson is still screaming BUT I BEAT THAT GUY!! And Jake Shields would be more than happy to turn Belfort into pretzel.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't know if overeem is top 10

but what he did to rogers was scary. the way he threw him down reminded me of jon jones. i don’t know if it’s steroids or what but he really looked to be at a different level.

so frustrating they couldn’t just make him fight fedor. that fight should have happened this month. who cares if he was getting a title shot off a loss? how can you let such good fighters sit on the shelf for so long.

by Clifford J on Nov 17, 2010 2:47 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, I thought Luke kind of totally ignored what Overeem said.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Nov 17, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

"and others (such as myself and some other members of instrength.com tend to use) incorporate talent, ability, skill-set and experience with that same ladder system."

This is like saying:

Luke, it sounds like you’re proselytizing this theory of gravity, but I prefer a theory of the bloofer monster keeping everything glued to the planet. In prizefighting, there is only one way rankings have ever been compiled in history. Period. If the fact that a large number of fans or even insiders or ignorant of this makes you think there are competing theories, not sure what to tell you.

Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

That’s fine, you can consider me to be wrong, I expected that. But Alistair was not. There are different ranking systems being postulated and he recognized that. He understands how these differing systems (even if you view them as being compared to a bloofer monster, how is that not trolling?) work and gave his opinion on them.

What I don’t understand is why you would censure Alistair for it, I understand the inflammatory response towards me but AO?

www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.

by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not censuring anyone

But I’m not going to say he’s right when he isn’t. It’s beyond strange fans think “experience, skills and potential” are even coherent criteria much less what’s been used in prizefighting. It’s not a system, never has been and never will be. It shouldn’t even be mentioned, most notably because Overeem’s argument for being in the top 10 doesn’t require it.

Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I think it’s more a matter of you chastising someone’s opinion, and that opinion is no more right or wrong than yours. You don’t believe that to be the case, obviously. You think there is one, best way of doing things. That’s your prerogative. But many, many people don’t subscribe to that theory.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Most people don't believe in evolution

But modern biology thrives. I’ll live.

Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That’s not a good comparison at all. You have modern science on your side in that case. How do you defend a ranking system? It’s all theory. There’s no proof of anything.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

A nerdy conspiracy nut. How original.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, so THIS we can summarily dismiss. Word.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not clear what you’re getting at.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I bet, if we explored really hard, we could find somewhere that wasn’t a subject of debate for you even though people disagreed with you.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

That didn't make sense either.

Did you mean something instead of somewhere?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not sure what to say now, since you butchered your approach so bad. Are we supposed to be talking about something here?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

How is modern science bullshit?

"Josh was not very sportsmanship."

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Nov 17, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Fertilizer

It's official. Les Miles DOES NOT have a deal with the devil. He beat him Nov. 6th, 24-21.

by DayGeaux on Nov 17, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC, most people do accept evolution. Just not in America.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Or Iraq or Iran or India or Italy or Brazil or Japan or China or Mexico or Pakistan or Somalia or

Afganistan or Turkey or Venezualla or Costa Rica or…….

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Those populations don't amount to much

Then again, I could have been reading about first world countries only. I’m not sure now, it was a while ago.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you look at the population count of Pakistan?

by Rufford on Nov 17, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

China?

India?
Pakistan?
Are
you
high?

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Those aren't first world countries...

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

So?

they still have BILLIONS of people in them.

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you see the part where I said

the study could have been about first world countries? And to sort of shut this down, the study done by the British Council in 2009 indicated that 74% of the Chinese accept evolution.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't see that.

Did you see the Indian population has over 1 Billion people in it?
Or Pakistans near 1 Billion?

"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on Nov 17, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't have the numbers

but India isn’t a big hater on evolution. I am clueless about Pakistan, although I would assume they don’t know much about it. That could just be my bias.

In general, the worlds perception of evolution tends to be better than Americans realize.

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if a majority of your population is Muslim, like Pakistan, evolution is not even taught.
But, you are correct. The post below details how few Americans believe in evolution in western industrialized democracies.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Darwinian evolution, to clarify.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe this is what Batman was referring to,
A comparison of peoples’ views in 34 countries finds that the United States ranks near the bottom when it comes to public acceptance of evolution.

Only Turkey ranked lower.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,207858,00.html#ixzz15ZqlEhq5

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Those people are wrong.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t mind me if I’m willing to give AO the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Hypothetically, would you have Overeem in the top ten?

For everyone that thinks I hate him: I have him 9th! In the division, there’s really no where else to put him.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I think I've got him at 8 or 9, personally, but haven't compiled recently

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s just no way I’m putting him over a guy like Big Nog. Not until he beats somebody.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

not until he actually fights MMA?

I mean fighting once every 2 years and the rest in K1 is not exactly worth of getting someone ranked in top 10

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you truly unaware of his record?!?

Overeem is 8-0 in MMA over the last 3 years as a HW, with 1 win over a top-10 guy and 1 NC after dominating another top-10 guy.

Yes, the Fujita fight will show on fight finder or where ever as a K-1 dynamite match, but those were MMA rules (Aoki won the same night IIRC).

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

How many times does Big Nog have to lose?

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

How’s the last guy that beat him doing?

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Nog is 1-2 over his last three

And Mir isn’t exactly setting the world on fire.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.

by Neil Manich on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

no. I object to that

Mur dominated Crocop and Koed him in the most exciting fight of the century

"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMAdot.com

by SheepleBuster on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

THIS is what I keep talking about with rankings reality vs. perception

Nog is 2-2 over the last 3 years, with 2 wins over top-10 guys (Sylvia, Couture).

Mir is 4-2 over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Big Nog).

Overeem is 8-0 at HW in MMA over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Rogers).

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

ooh,ooh

i know this….he’s champ right?

by F'n Clownshoes on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Nogueira is my favorite fighter of all time. I’ve covered that time and again. but Overeem’s 8-0 run over questionable competition PROBABLY gives him the slight nod on my rankings which get seen by no one but me over Nog who is 1-2 in his last 3. Not because Overeem has been great but because Nogueira has picked up losses.

And now we go to the argument over if losses to tough competition are worth more than wins over barely mid-tier fighters which is a question that everyone has to have their own answer to and one that I am not going to debate here.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

In my own private idaho...

A loss to someone ranked 2+ spots above you shouldn’t significantly affect one’s rankings – it is exactly the outcome expected were the rankings perfect.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Chances are the guy two spots below him won his last fight, so then you just switch them.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is that

if #6 loses to #1, it is simply the expected outcome, and should not hurt #6’s ranking in the slightest, provided both gave a good account of themselves.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Ok. You’re speaking of ladder-rankings, that’s fine and empirical. Not all ranking systems are meaningful or substantive. They don’t determine #1 contenders and from what I can tell, promoters give little if any credence to them. It’s a nice way of understanding the meaning of someone’s record, but someone using a ranking system based on fighting-ability doesn’t make it intrinsically worthless, it just makes it a different format of ranking. Ranking based on fighting ability and good ol’ conjecture of who would win the fight, which has been used for a long time in boxing as well. May not be the standardized form of boxing rankings that you’re referring to (because there is more than one format for rankings in Prizefighting, may not be as prominent but there are, see Beer Monster’s post below) but a ranking system nonetheless.

Apples and oranges. Apples might be your favorite fruit but just because people say an orange is a fruit is well, and a damn good fruit, doesn’t mean that it’s trying to be an apple.

www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.

by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

We're never going to agree

But to be on the safe side, I adjusted my language to be a little softer in the post.

Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I applaud that

Most would never take opinions into consideration (looking at you, subo). I’m glad you do. That’s what’s great about this place.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I let them censor the Fuck Strikeforce headline. Not like I got a vote, but hey, it happened.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you.

www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.

by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, and to censure means: harsh criticism or disapproval.

“It’s clear Overeem, and frankly most fighters, have no idea how rankings are compiled. It’s not about potential, subjective measure of skill or any other completely silly criteria.”

You’re saying that he has no idea of what he is speaking of and that some of his purported methods are “silly”. How is that not censuring?

www.instrength.com Pretty decent MMA forum.

by Super Dingus on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m a BEER Monster. Not a bloofer monster. Come on.

But what you’re saying about combat sports ranking system isn’t exactly true. The alphabet soup of boxing promotions doesn’t use your system of ranking at all. They all use different systems based on…well, whatever they please. Even Ring rankings aren’t all laddered.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

the sanctioning bodies do play fast and loose

But that’s even more reason to be suspicious of THEIR rankings, not the idea that what we are establishing is divisional hierarchy to position a leader and a line of contenders. THat’s what rankings is about.

Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.

by Luke Thomas on Nov 17, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I should make it clear that I’m not criticizing BE’s ranking system or your belief that’s it’s the best way to do things. I personally think it works, overall. I’m saying that your idea isn’t the only valid one out there. There’s no one correct way to deal with something so subjective.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Nov 17, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And that would work well enough

if it were separated for each organization.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, rec'd.

Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Nov 17, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

And in the absence of

head-to-head matches, or even common opponents, what exactly are the detailed criteria of that system?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the rub

The rankings systems are all nothing more than a blend of methods. The rankings are a mix of record, reputation, "lifetime achievement", bullshit and pure speculation. How else do you explain the rankings of Rampage, Griffin or Thiago Silva as compared to a Jon Jones?

If Jon Jones were treated on potential like Brock Lesnar (top-10 at 3-1), where would he rank? There is no realistic reason for Rampage, Griffin or Bader to be ranked ahead of him, and certainly not by some of the idiotic criteria I have heard given as reasons.

Jones hasn’t fought anyone in the consensus top 10, but he has absolutely destroyed everyone in his recent fights. The only LHWs who would be even with or perhaps very slightly favored against him are probably Rua, Machida, and possibly Rashad (at +200 or so). That’s it.

Same thing at HW. How does Werdum jump to #2 on many rankings, based on one fluke win. If he had been top-5 already and on a long winning streak, sure, but he had neither.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

How does Werdum jump to #2 on many rankings, based on one fluke win

The first step to figuring this out is understanding that Werdum’s win wasn’t a fluke.

by JRN on Nov 17, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Fluke might be a little strong, but lets start by defining our terms here

a fluke is a lucky or improbable occurrence, with the implication that the occurrence could not be repeated.

If you removed the “luck” from that (and any implication of luck) then it fits perfectly.

Fedor had survived the supposed most dangerous guard of Big Nog repeatedly, and had already easily escaped Werdum’s initial sub attempt and therefore in a fit of overconfidence dove back into Werdum’s guard trying to pound him out, not realizing a trap had been set and Werdum either wasn’t rocked or had recovered.

My question for you then is do you think Fedor so foolish as to make that mistake again, or do you think Werdum so skilled he can pull guard on Fedor at will?

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s likely to happen again, but by that standard, an unacceptably high number of fights could be deemed “flukes.”

Is Gabriel Gonzaga catching Cro Cop with a head kick again? Is Carlos Condit landing that hook on Dan Hardy again? Would Jose Aldo knock out Cub Swanson with a double flying knee again? Are both of Mike Brown’s wins over Urijah Faber flukes, because the first time Brown caught him throwing an improbable elbow, and the second time Faber improbably broke both his hands?

I would answer “no” to all of these, and I wouldn’t consider any of these wins flukes, either.

Werdum caught Fedor overcommitting and locked up the perfect submission at the perfect time. He exploited both the physical situation and the particular psychological weakness that his opponent brought to the ring that night (trigger-happiness/overconfidence). To me, that doesn’t sound like a fluke. It sounds like Werdum was the better man that night. Ultimately, that’s all a fight can really tell you.

by JRN on Nov 17, 2010 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And, by definition,

Werdum was the better man that night…my point with the “fluke” remark is that Fedor wins that match-up at least 8/10 times, regardless of the outcome of this one.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 1:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Rankings are still blunt instruments and subject to whim

I agree with everything Overeem said more or less.

"One thing I will never do is I will never say never." -Dana White

by Symbul on Nov 17, 2010 2:54 PM EST reply actions  

Gotta love Reem

He’s well spoken and made his case well. The man is a serious fighter in general. He’s constantly in competitions, and constantly winning. I think he’s a beast HW, and exactly right about the UFC vs SF HW matchups. I think SF has a better overall HW division, but I’d give anything to see that go down. Regardless, rankings are definitely silly, but still fun to talk about. I really can’t wait to see Reem and the rest of SF’s HW’s get into action next year.

by MBeamer32 on Nov 17, 2010 2:57 PM EST reply actions  

Allister Overeem has been fighting lower level HWs in MMA.

that’s a fact. Rogers is probably was the highest ranked MMA HW he’s fought lately.

1. Cain
2. JDS
3. Werdum
4. Fedor
5. it’s a mess from here on.

by Lil_Machete on Nov 17, 2010 3:08 PM EST reply actions  

1. Cain

2. Its a mess from here on

by Mandalore on Nov 17, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Eventually this will all truly be SUBJECTIVE

that is once SF folds and the upper crust talent goes to Zuffa… then let he rankings begin.

by RECE ROCK on Nov 17, 2010 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

I like what he has to say. Good stuff.

I also am in full agreement with his comments about oddsmakers… money means a heck of a lot more than what most rankings mean. If the odds in a fight between two guys are on one fighter, then that fighter should be ranked higher than the other, no matter what else. I’m not saying the person with odds always wins, but I wonder if the person with odds wins more often than the person listed higher in rankings when they aren’t on the same page? (and when the skill level isn’t greatly different)

by JeremyShane on Nov 17, 2010 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

There's no doubt Overeem would be a contender if he were in the UFC right now

No matter where he fights, he has the abilities and skills to dominate in any organization. Guy is a beast.

by daftshadow on Nov 17, 2010 3:37 PM EST reply actions  

Let's resolve all of this by taking the 8 best heavyweights in the world, however we each rank them,

and let’s have a tourney to determine who is #1 at that moment (Cain, JDS, Carwin, Lesnar, Fedor, Overeem, Werdum, Barnett).

There we go, black with white stripes – dilemma solved…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:08 PM EST reply actions  

Rankings + Reem=Tons of comments

320 comments in two hours. Fascinating.

by memitim on Nov 17, 2010 4:10 PM EST reply actions  

Mhmm

The new Fedor, indeed.

by TheFilt on Nov 17, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

the new Fedor

without so much animosity from both sides. With the possible exception of BJ Penn, I can’t think of anyone more polarizing in MMA than Fedor…where I have often found myself at odds with both sides.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Allistair’s brain may be as big as his traps. He showed excellent analytical skils parsing through the various arguments — he’s definitely top 10 in that regard. He would have been a good debater or lawyer.

On the other hand, I don’t understand this:

It’s clear Overeem, and frankly most fighters, have no idea how rankings are compiled. It’s not about potential, subjective measure of skill or any other completely silly criteria. Bas Rutten couldn’t possibly be more wrong.

Since people like Bas are compiling their own ranking systems using subjective measures, it is, as a matter of fact, one way in which ranking are compiled (and clearly one of the ways that p4p rankings are compiled). Given that there isn’t a uniform body deciding the “silliness” or the necessity of ranking factors, I don’t see how anyone can be so riled up over this or can make a statement like the one quoted above. I’d bet that such subjective factors do constitute a non-insignificant part of most people’s ranking systems, which is why fighters such as Penn are still ranked as highly as they are.

"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.

by The Darkness on Nov 17, 2010 4:15 PM EST reply actions  

Where have you been?

And, as usual, you are spot on. When there is no way for winners to be determined “on the field” as it were (due to different orgs), subjectivity is a necessary component of any valid rating system that has its roots in reality.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Working incredibly long hours.

Your posts remind me of another user I frequently agreed with — BigDNotDallas. Have you changed your name (or been banished and reborn)?

"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.

by The Darkness on Nov 18, 2010 9:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Shoot me an email (added to my profile page temporarily) if you can. Gracias.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Nov 18, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

This is what I could have posted if I wasn't at work at the time.

P4P rankings are a perfect example of subjectivity. There are people who commented here that you couldn’t do rankings that way who probably publish p4p lists. oh the irony.

by destructivist on Nov 17, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Overeem

using logic. One might say MMALogic….

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Nov 17, 2010 4:16 PM EST reply actions  

Reem's answer is respectful and correct

What a great response.

"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.

by IKilled007 on Nov 17, 2010 4:20 PM EST reply actions  

Overeem knows whats up.

"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."

by VelociAldo on Nov 17, 2010 6:18 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Would LOVE to see the Top 5 in UFC vs SF in HW Division!

Granted it’s a pipedream, but Alistair’s idea is fantastic. Can you imagine the audience size? That could be the highest viewership of any MMA event ever if it were to happen. Initially, one would think that UFC would never take that risk. But…considering the extra $$$ to be made, a HW showdown once per year would be an interesting business case.

In trad’l martial arts, there are open comps, wherein fighters from many sanctioning bodies compete against one another, but they aren’t credibly recognized. This is disappointing. In each major form of sport, there should be a globally recognized comp each year. Every 4 years at the Olympics is not enough, and excludes several worthy sports, such as MMA.

What a thoughtful reply by Alistair. This is the type of insight that builds credibility. I am more of an Overeem fan for having read it.

Luke, thank you for sharing another great interview!

Twitter: http://twitter.com/FightSpectator
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/FightSpectator

by @FightSpectator on Nov 20, 2010 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

"I'm working on the intricacies of details of maneuvers that he still doesn't even know the names of." - Frank Mir

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Wario_small
BECW3 UFC 146 Live Post
Me_2_small
Farewell Frank Mir
Lebowski_excited_grin_small
A Paean to the Korean Zombie, Chan Sung Jung: My New Favorite Fighter
Elty_small
What Every MMA Fan Should Remember
Bv_small
The Top-250 of 2012: BV Wants YOU!

Recent FanPosts

Wario_small
BECW3 UFC 146 Recap & Live Post discussion
220px-johnnycash1969_small
Fighters you aren't sold on ?
Small
Duane Ludwig's chasm...ouch
Rousimar-palhares-picture_small
An Appeal to SBNation
Lebowski_excited_grin_small
Top 5 Potential Replacements for Vitor Belfort Against Wanderlei Silva
Obp_small
Help me get a job
Madmen_icon_small
Dan Hardy: The Outlaw (Short documentary film)
Ck1_small
Glory world series livepost
74471_small
UFC 146 'Primetime' video for 'Dos Santos vs Mir' on FX (Final Episode)

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

MMA Rankings

USA Today / SB Nation Consensus MMA Rankings