Dana White Questions Alistair Overeem's Place as a Top Ten Heavyweight
by Mike Fagan on Nov 15, 2010 6:00 PM EST
in MMA Editorial
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Dana White is a rankings junkie. There's no other way around his obsession over who is and who isn't in the media's various top ten lists. First it was Fedor Emelianenko's place as the number one heavyweight and pound-for-pound fighter in the world. Then it was Benson Henderson, rightfully, missing from most anyone's lists. He rejected any notion of Jose Aldo, his own golden child, as belonging in the pound-for-pound discussion.
Now Dana's found his latest fix in the form of Alistair Overeem. From MMA Junkie:
"Listen, I like Alistair Overeem," he told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) following UFC 122. "I see him all the time. Cool guy. But there's no urgency on my part to get him into the UFC.
"I actually find it hilarious that he's ranked in the top 10 by some of the websites. I find it hilarious. What has he done in MMA to be ranked in the top 10? I'd like somebody here to answer that question. We've got a lot of media guys here; what has Alistair Overeem done to be ranked in the top 10 of mixed martial arts' heavyweight division?"
The Bloody Elbow Meta-Rankings place Overeem eighth among his heavyweight brethren. That puts him right between former UFC champs Frank Mir and Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Is it warranted? Does he even deserve to be in the top ten?
More on Overeem's place in the rankings after the jump.
Let's assume Dana has no issues with the top six - Velasquez, Lesnar, Emelianenko, Werdum, Carwin, Dos Santos. Overeem is the next non-UFC heavyweight on the list, and let's assume that White agrees with that sentiment. Along with Mir and Nogueira, here are the next five UFC heavyweights: Brendan Schaub, Cheick Kongo, Roy Nelson, Mirko Filipovic, and Ben Rothwell. Let's take a look at their records over the last 3 years.
| Fighter | Wins | Loss |
Overeem |
Rogers |
|
Mir |
Filipovic |
Carwin Lesnar |
| Nogueira | Couture Sylvia |
Velasquez Mir |
Schaub |
Gonzaga Tuchsherer Gormley Bojan Spalevic Alex Rozman Johnny Curtis Jay Lester |
Nelson |
Kongo |
Buentello Hardonk Al-Turk Evensen |
Mir Velasquez Herring |
Nelson |
Struve |
Dos Santos Monson Arlovski |
Filipovic |
Barry Perosh Al-Turk Choi Mizuno |
Mir Dos Santos |
| Rothwell | Yvel Chris Guillen |
Velasquez Arlovski |
Yes, Overeem doesn't have any quality wins outside of Brett Rogers (and that's borderline itself), but it's hard to argue any one of those guys has a distinctly better resume outside of Mir. Nogueira's living on his legend. Kongo's best win is a guy who washed out of the UFC (and who Overeem beat just outside the 3-year window). Schaub just beat the ghost of Gabriel Gonzaga. He also lost to Roy Nelson, who is 4-3. And Mirko Filipovic and Ben Rothwell don't have a good win between them.
It's not just human voters that put Overeem in the top ten, either. Fight Matrix, a computerized ranking system based on a modified chess ELO system, ranks the Dutchman at nine, a shade below Nogueira.
If Overeem doesn't belong in the top ten, Dana, who does?
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I’m not saying I believe this to be true, but Overeem’s decimation of Cro Cop before the no-contest is taken into account by a lot of people too.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 15, 2010 6:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
AO is def top ten.
Dana is just being Dana.
by Lil_Machete on Nov 15, 2010 6:05 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
He has no top ten wins so I don't think he's top ten
hypothetically he could beat a lot of guys but I don’t think that matters
Drink to remember, drink to forget.
by doonerthesooner on Nov 15, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Rogers was top 10 when he beat him.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 15, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
rogers is sub par. and that’s putting it nicely.
by kanodogg on Nov 15, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
LOL @ the Rogers excuse
He was never good and got into the top ten by rushing Arlovski. He just went to a decision with FREAKIN’ Warpath!
by William Wilson on Nov 15, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What’s LOL is the fact that you are actually LOL about the Rogers’ win. You are basically saying that since his skills suck, he isn’t top ten. That’s exactly what rankings shouldn’t be.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Um, no
Rogers shouldn’t have been in the top 10 after a 45 second match with Andrei “Glass Jaw” Arlovski. So Overeem’s drubbing of him shouldn’t be constantly used as an excuse to rank him there.
by William Wilson on Nov 15, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would argue that he should have been ranked 9 or 10, but I’d consider a ranking of 11 or 12. In any case, before that fight… Overeem wasn’t even close.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Revisionist rankings
gotta love em. In no way shape or form did Fedor and Overeem scrambling Rogers brains have any effect on him amirite?
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Nah
Rogers wasn’t great before then. He got a perfect matchup in AA to vault him up the rankings but most people knew he wasn’t as good as his rank. That said, at the time, beating AA means you earned a 8-13 ranking.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rogers > Carwin
imo
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Insane
Even if we go beyond his resume and do hypothetical matchmaking, Gonzaga and Mir would flat-out destroy Rogers.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mir folds like a lawn chair at the first sign of trouble
and Gonzaga wouldn’t know how to use his BJJ if his life depended on it
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
I’d pick Heath Herring to beat Brett Rogers.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'd pay to see that fight.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
Shane 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2
Carwin is not very good.
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
If Carwin isn't good
Then there aren’t many heavyweights that are.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Carwin has power
and his defensive wrestling is legit. His offensive wrestling has never impressed me
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Are we still talking about the guy who has one loss
And knocked out everyone else he faced in the first round?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Nov 15, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Compared to Shane, Rogers is garbage.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Compared any semblance of boxing technique
Carwin has the skillset of of a 6 year old
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
And Rogers looked like a Golden Gloves champion when he stood with Overeem.
I’ll say this: Warpath ain’t taking Carwin to a fucking decision.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Im mostly just trolling you
But I honestly do think Rogers pre-fedor/reem beatdown could give Carwin a good fight.
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 15, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Do you know how many fighters you could specualte on using that example. WEll Chris Horodecki pre Ryan Schultz vs. Chris Horodecki Part 2 looked like the future of the LW devision. I mean come on now !
I think you missed the whole point
of what an opinion is big guy. Rogers after Arlovski deserved his ranking based on his win. Thats undebatable. What is debatable is my opinion on whether he beats Carwin which was never stated as fact. So come on now !
'cause the heart that betrays itself willingly, Is like a nation that trades freedom for stability, its so seductive to be cold and corrupted and isolated and try to be an independent republic, But liberty to be loved on the surface is worthless, The sacrifice of revolution with no purpose
by ImmortalTechnique92 on Nov 16, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Carwin also probably hits harder than anyone in the division
And has legitimate wrestling chops.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Nov 15, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
rogers can still kick some ass
he’s not the greatest but he’s got a serious chin and punchin power. at least rogers can go for more than one round. fedor defanged him and changed his whole state of mind
I’m way down on Gonzaga right now, but that’s still probably true. Rogers could Carwin Gonzaga though, but Gabe probably wins that fight 70 percent of the time.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Their respective positions
were almost identical….so using the revisionist BS, now if Carwin’s next fight is against Cain, and Cain crushes him, Carwin is suddenly a has-been or never-was…
The two are almost exactly analogous to one another, aside from the fact one guy is in the UFC…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
uhhh
If “most people” knew this, how do you explain these closing moneylines?
http://bestfightodds.com/events/strikeforce-shields-vs-lawler-152
That
seems to support what I said.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
i hear they’re also giving away nobel prizes for attempted physics
by kanodogg on Nov 15, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
made me think
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
AO could beat....
Lesnar, Carwin, Big NOg, Mir, Kongo, Nelson,
He would lose to Cain, Fedor, and maybe Overeem.
Rankings shouldn’t be about who you THINK he can beat. That’s the problem with rankings overall. Three quarters of the damn rankers rank via subjectivity, i.e. they pit guys against each other in fantasy fights and try to figure out who would win. That’s the ultimate fail.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 17 recs
Kinda tough when he's not with the UFC.
You guys can make all the comments you want about theoretical wins but that’s all we can do right now until he signs with the UFC.
No, you rank on what’s been actually accomplished in the cage/ring, not who you think would win.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Velasquez, Werdum, Fedor, Lesnar, Dos Santos, Carwin, Mir, Overeem, Nogueira, Barnett. In that order.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
my version
Velasquez, Werdum, Fedor, Dos Santos, Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem, Mir, Nogueira, Barnett.
That makes sub-ziggity difference in rankings though. Mir has more and better wins in the last few years than Overeem does. That’s ALL that matters. Their skill set doesn’t matter whatsoever. All that matters is who you beat.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Barnett does not deserve to be on a top 10 ranking unless its a list of steroid junkies.
by alexmullen4180 on Nov 15, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Who has he beaten lately
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Nov 15, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
He’s a heavyweight winning fights. Who do you want me to put ahead of him? Big Foot Silva? Roy Nelson? Brendan Schaub? C’mon.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Holy shit
You two are arguing over a 1 FUCKING POSITION difference in rank. Are you fucking kidding me? Are you really the sort of person who thinks that there is an objective right and wrong answer to which guy should be 7 and which should be 8 in the rankings? Accept it: there’s no such thing as objective rankings, one or two spots is nothing to get angry over, and you’re never going to convince anyone of any position in an argument over the internet.
If that is ALL that matters
please explain Rampage’s ranking. Or Big Nogs. Or Lesnar’s pre-2010. Or Forrest’s… Or Thiago Silva’s…
We could go on and on. Some guys are ranked based on what they have actually done in the cage, some guys are ranked on potential as well, many “name” guys are ranked on reputation and the distant past.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
No, it isn’t.
You don’t put theoretical wins in the equation at all. Ever. Why would you?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The only fight that's a bigger test than what he is getting in SF
Would be Cain anyways.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
So the only good heavyweights in the world are in the UFC? Overeem couldn’t fight a Fedor or Werdum to earn his ranking?
Hey UFC4 go fuck yourself, how about that? Fucking punk, I was just asking for the source that says lesnar gets 5 mill a fight, it’s obvious one does not exist. Bunch of gabronis on a site pulling figures out of your ass.
by Garrett Bennicas
overeem is so good he's the only fighter who could lose to himself
by kanodogg on Nov 15, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
He meant Valentijn Overeem obviously.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
even though he’s an overeem i didn’t think that was who he was referring to. i never thought valejtin beating alistair was plausible
Yeah
I was just making a lame joke. If he actually meant Valentijn he’s insane.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I agree AO is top ten
people tend to not look at his peers. Dispite what Dana will have you believe the HW division is not that great and there is a lot of mediocrity. Outside of Cain V, JDS, and Fedor they all kind of run together and can all beat each other on a given night. I think AO belongs there and in 2011 he says he will do more MMA so he has to prove that spot is no mistake.
Hope he can get it done.
Roman from South Jersey, here for two things chewing bubble gum and kicking ass and I'm all out of bubble gum!
Dana is right (for once)
Overeem hasn’t done anything worth a squat in MMA to justify being in the top 10. Most folks started ranking him in the top 10 after his K-1 win over Badr Hari, which has nothing to do with MMA. His opponent list for the last two years has been laughable:
-Win Brett Rogers (don’t tell me he is top 10; he just went to a decision with Warpath)
-Win Kazuyuki Fujita
-Win James Thompson
-Win Tony Sylvester
-Win Gary Goodridge
-Win Mark Hunt
-Win Tae Hyun Lee
-Win Paul Buentello
-1
Dana is completely wrong on this, are you kidding? Overeem is one of the best HW’s in the world. The only reason he’s saying anything about this is because he isn’t signed with the UFC. Do you have any idea how much of a draw Overeem would be if he was in the UFC? White knows it, and is just upset that he is with Strikeforce. That’s the bottom line. In the words of Joe Rogan, “Overeem was built to f*ck your girlfriend”.
He is top 10 ased on what accomplishments?
by William Wilson on Nov 15, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Actually… Brett Rogers was top ten after he beat Arlovski. Very late top ten, and since Alistair’s drubbing of him… Alistair is ranked late top 10.
But before that, anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who ranked him top ten should have faced the gauntlet of doubt as to why. I’d argue that the division’s weakness warrants a late top ten ranking.
There is, however, no way Alistair is a top five fighter without a horrible amount of subjectivity. Rankings are about who beat who. And everyone is in some sort of rush to throw their favorite HW into the top 3. There’s no rush. He’ll prove it eventually.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Leland, there’s no set rule for rankings. They’re as subjective as anything. I know you think ladder rankings are the way to go, but that makes them no more right or wrong than anything else. In the end, they’re just one person’s opinion. An educated guess is still a guess.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 15, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Sure it does. It makes them more right than someone ranking Alistair Overeem #1 in the world, which actually happens in the current USAT rankings.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Why does it make them more right? You’re using an incomplete data set to come up with the rankings since these guys don’t all fight under the same banner. When two guys have the same amount of success ladder-wise, one has to be ranked over the other. Don’t tell me you don’t think “well, A could probably beat B, so I’ll put A here”.
What I’m saying is that BOTH come into play when ranking, because not everyone’s fought each other.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Nov 15, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn’t make them more right. It makes me more right. Simply because Overeem fights in SF, we shouldn’t suddenly roll with the fantasy style ranking. He beat Rogers, that was it. It’s absurd to see some sites put him as top five. It’s obvious that those rankings are basically saying… Well, he fucking own this guy and this guy so yeah… top 5. That’s dumb. Why not just wait till he actually does it? What’s the rush?
And I never think “A could probably beat B”. It should never come down to that unless there is disparity in region you’ve fought such as the LW rankings. But that should entail a 7 position bump past everyone.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
Rec'd
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Err, shouldn’t entail a 7 position bump.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
On subjectivity vs objectivity
I think in the end there has to be both to generate rankings. Why? Take an extreme example and work downwards:
1) Imagine SF has Overeem, Werdum and Fedor, and UFC has Brock, Cain and Carwin. They are all under long term contracts and none has fought anyone in the other promotion. None of them move promotion during a 3 year window. Let’s say Overeem beats Werdum who beats Fedor, and Overeem beats Fedor. Repeatedly. So SF has a clear 1-2-3. Assume the same for Cain>Brock>Carwin. Over the next 3 years, within each promotion, the 1-2-3 is confirmed through repeated fights.
2) So, how do you generate the top 6 rankings for HWs in this scenario? You can assume UFC is better and put their guys as 1-2-3; or you can look that fighters’ skills and performances and make a judgement call about their relative merits. But there is NO purely “objective” method of integrating the two sets of guys into one set of rankings because none fought the other promotion’s guys.
3) Let’s make it more realistic now. A few guys cross promotions and this gives us a chance to connect the dots. But still, there are WAY too many gaps and even the assessment of these guys crossing is fraught with issues. If Werdum and Arlovski bomb out in the UFC, quit/get cut, they cross and we see SF people fight them. But we all know that a fighter is NOT the same from fight to fight. A bad loss can derail them or re-invigorate them. To assume they are exactly the same, and use a ladder system where the guy that beats them slots in above them, pushing everyone else down (or else, exchanging the two positions; this is no less valid than using a “push” or even a “reverse push” where, if A is higher ranked than B and then loses to B, then instead of raising B to be above A, we could push A down below B)… to assume they are exactly the same is making a subjective judgment call right there. When we have additional information like the manner in which they lost, the quality of their training, major injuries sustained in the fight, etc, we are leaving out important information if we ignore this and use a pure ladder system. Which means the pure ladder system should be inferior to a ladder-and-judgement system, in terms of generating the “best” possible rankings.
4) Even though some guys cross promotions, the biggest names often do not. So, without guys at the consistent/peak of their game to measure SF and UFC fighters against, it’s difficult for me to believe a “pure objective ladder” method gives the best results.
5) Realistically, what generates the rankings that people read and accept? A combination of the most knowledgeable rankers globally goes into the “Consensus” rankings – which I think should be called COMPOSITE rankings not CONSENSUS which implies everyone agrees with them. Since these broadly accepted “Consensus” rankings are drawn from a composite of many sources, some of which inject judgment/subjectivity, realistically I don’t think there is any truly objective ranking. It has to be a combination, unless they all fight for the same promotion (and even then… matchmaking can perhaps still result in gaps in our capability to give a pure objective ranking, I think… as well as performances. I mean, if A beats Brock and Cain by a doubtful decision, and 2 months later B beats Brock and Cain by awesome 1st round KO/submission, we would use our judgement and say B must be better, even though a pure ladder method would rate the wins as equally good.).
6) And as said above, even with pure ladder, the choice of 3 possible mechanics (or more) of how the ladder works (Promote, Demote, or Switch positions) is a subjective choice already!
Thanks for reading my long and boring post.
ArcaMMA
I curious if Fedor were to avenge his loss to Werdum, beat Barnett, Silva and Overeem while the UFC HW strap isn’t defended once and goes round robin between Lesnar, JDS, Cain for example then who would be the number 1 ranked HW?
Food goes in here
Could only be Fedor again at that point.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 5:41 AM EST up reply actions
2.) You’re right, there is no purely objective way, but there is also no way you can justify jumping some guy 7 spots into the top 3 like Overeem. Some idiots actually do that.
Realistically, you have to use some subjectivity, but some of the asinine ways in which people actually implement that is ridiculous.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 16, 2010 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
I rank fighters by their trapezius muscle size primarily
An Overeem is running away with that. P4P best actually.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Nov 15, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dennis Siver and Chad Mendes 2 and 3
Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?
by Austin Martin on Nov 15, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Palhares
He’s the dark horse in the MMA trapezius division
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Nov 15, 2010 8:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I got great odds on Cole Miller
to break top 10 by the end of the year
Look, I’m not saying that there won’t be some subjectivity, but when there is a huge disparity from one person to the next, i.e. a #1 ranking versus a #8, that’s ridiculous.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Jesse Holland really ought to explain what the fuck that’s all about. He also has Alvarez at #1.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
It boggles the mind
I thought that series I did would bring people like him and Genia (Mousasi at #6?!?!?!) out of the woodwork. Alas.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
The level of dumbfuckitude out there when it comes to rankings is staggering.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
I tried, man
I tried and I failed. My ballot is all I have.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Never underestimate the stupidity of your fellow man.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
by Brian Mayes on Nov 15, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If I accurately estimated it, I’d never get out of bed in the morning. Delusion sustains me.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Remember when people thought Miguel Torres was a top pound for pounder?
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
Remember when pound for pound was worthless… oh yeah, it still is.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The same argument could be made about rankings in general.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Nov 15, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes indeed
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
It could, but I think divisional rankings have a place in, at the very least, progressing fighters against better competition and knowing exactly who is better or fought better fighters at a cursory glance.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Well, if its just a tool for the lazy, then there is really no reason for us to argue so extensively over it. If its to spark discussion, which I’m fine with, than p4p is just as worthwhile.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
I think it’s a tool, not necessarily the lazy. You could base a matchmaking session on the ranking, then review tape. That’s essentially what I’ve done for a long time.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
This.
I find ranking to be very worthwhile and whether we are lazy or not, they give us some information about what “authorities” or “the market” believe about the relative levels of the fighters. In the absence of rankings, everyone would independently recreate the wheel and rank them in their own minds anyway… wasteful effort.
Divisional rankings within a given organization could have some value, but that is about it in reality…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's nothing
Remember when Matt Lindland was 3rd or Robbie Lawler was top 5?
Remember when Nick Diaz was top 5? OH WAIT HE STILL IS DESPITE OWNING ONE WIN OVER A TOP 25 WELTERWEIGHT IN 2002.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I think Lindland and Lawler were the worst rankings by far.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
How about Frank Mir jumping to top 10 based on wins over an unranked Hardonk and a 1-0 fighter?
Or Vitor Belfort jumping into the top 10 based on a win over Lindland?
At least Lindland went 10-0 at MW with some pretty quality wins and a competitive fight with Rampage before getting to number 3.
by John Nash on Nov 15, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I wouldn’t disagree there.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
When I started following MMA (fall ’05), Lindland was ranked #1 by Weekly.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Nov 15, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Jorge Santiago
Remember when Santiago got knocked out of the UFC and 2 years later cracked the top 5 without beating a single top opponent?
I’m sure winning 9 in a row and beating BE consensus #9 Misaki and 411 Mania number 7 (before consensus) Jeremy Horn had nothing to do with it.
This
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Just like
Nick Diaz
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
It’s obvious. It’s pure speculation on fantasy match-ups.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Its kind of like the situation with Werdum beating Fedor
Many people automatically put Werdum ahead of Fedor in the rankings, conveniently glossing over the fact that he also jumps JDS, who KHTFO…
I take the view much more like in NCAA FB and NCAA BB – if someone beats a top-3 guy, unless they were within a few spots of their ranking prior to the fight, they have no business leap-frogging the rest, particularly if its a “fluke” win, highly unlikely to be duplicated.
If #2 Auburn goes to #17 South Carolina and dominates them statistically all over the game, yet loses on a few “fluke” plays in the last 5 minutes, does anyone seriously think South Carolina is going to suddenly jump to #2 in the country? Or even pass Auburn?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
This is just Dana being Dana
doing his job as a promoter. Partly he is trying to divert attention from the simple reality that Strikeforce’s HW division – if they could just figure out how to make them fight one another that is – is every bit the equal of the UFC’s, and that both are paper thin once you get out of the top-4 or top-5 guys, and partly he is laying the negotiating ground work for when Overeem eventually comes to the UFC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
You also have to look at how he finished those fights
Rogers – TKO R1
Fujita – KO R1 (and carried off in a stretcher)
Thompson- SUB R1
Sylvester – SUB R1
Goodridge – SUB R1
Hunt – SUB R1
Lee – KO R1
Buentello = SUB R1
Its basically the same thing we look at when we ranked Carwin so high. And if we go off of pedigree of fights beyond 3 years, he’s fought some of the top names & 8 his 11 losses are to the best in their respective divisions, AT THEIR PRIME. Yes he’s had some cans recently, but Carwin has never faced that kind top-level competition, AO is 5 years younger, AND is far more experienced as a mixed martial artist. I think he rightly deserves his spot in the top 10 HW discussion…
It was the The Voice who got him noticed, Ubereem is a slice of fried gold as a moniker
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
but Carwin has never faced that kind top-level competition
Carwin’s HW resume is infinitely stronger that AO’s.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 16, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
you have got to be kidding me
Gonzaga – Mir- Lesnar…and then who? a bunch of cans who’s combined record barely tops .500
Overeem fought Liddell, Rua, Vovchanchyn, Werdum, Belfort, Arona. granted they were at LHW, but that list is WAY better than Carwin’s.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
Overeem fought and beat the #8 HW (Rogers) and was completely dominating the then #9 HW (Cro Cop) when the fight was stopped due to groin strikes resulting in a NC. He is also 6-0 against the other journeyman HWs he has fought over the last 3 years (7-0 if we count 3 years and a day ago Paul Buentello).
Carwin’s only victory over a ranked opponent was when he beat then #3 Frank Mir. Aside from that, he beat an unranked Gonzaga, a debuting Neil Wain (0-1 UFC), journeyman Christian Wellisch (2-3 UFC) and a handful of nobody regional guys.
Overeem’s career record at HW is certainly equal to, if not considerably better than, Carwins.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Overeem fought and beat the #8 HW (Rogers) and was completely dominating the then #9 HW (Cro Cop) when the fight was stopped due to groin strikes resulting in a NC.
You don’t get credit for a NC due to illegal strikes. Any credit. At all. Ever.
Overeem’s HW resume is absolute shit.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 16, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
I don't understand why you don't understand, but I'll try once more
Overeem is is 7-0 at heavyweight over the last 3 years, with one victory over a top-10 heavyweight (Brett Rogers).
Shane Carwin is 5-1 at heavyweight over the last 3 years, with one victory over a top-10 opponent (Frank Mir).
Cain Velasquez is 7-0 over the last 3 years, with 2 wins over top-10 guys (Lesnar, Big Nog).
JDS is 7-0 over the last 3 years, with 1 win over a top-10 guy (Werdum).
Lesnar is 4-2 over the last 3 years, with 3 wins over top-10 guys (Couture, Mir, Carwin)
Of those, only Lesnar’s and Cain’s are impressive (i.e. more than 1 win over a top-10 guy)…this also serves as a reminder of just how tissue thin the heavyweight division truly is…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
***CORRECTION***
Overeem is 8-0 over the last 3 years, not 7-0.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
i believe were being baited into this Ronin
Subo has nothing good to offer in this debate other than ‘he sucks’…
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
“Listen, I like x, but you’re crazy if you think he should be ranked y. Listen, some of these media guys, they’re in it for the money. That’s the only way x could be ranked over z.”
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Nov 15, 2010 6:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Jeeze, tough crowd here in the comments section today.
The reason Alistair is in the top ten is due to the weakness of the heavyweight division. Look at the guys who are winning fights who are below him in the rankings – Big Foot Silva, Josh Barnett, Brett Rodgers and Brendan Schaub. None of those guys are exactly setting the world on fire either.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
hw is so thin that overeem is top 10
his ranking is somewhere in the 8-10 range though right near the bottom
and his k1 accomplishments definately put him higher in other people lists which shouldnt really happen since its technically a different sport
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
and his k1 accomplishments definately put him higher in other people lists which shouldnt really happen since its technically a different sport
Cough Bas Rutten Cough.
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
bas' golden glory bias is super evident there
#1? cmon man
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
K-1 performances shouldn’t count, period.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This
Should Toney have been ranked based on his boxing accomplishments? NO.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Should Toney have been ranked based on his boxing accomplishments?
BUT ALL HE NEEDS IS ONE PUNCH BRO!
"Nobody can be a champion forever." - Muhammad Ali
EVEN OFF HIS BACK!!!!
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Nov 15, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Bad example
Toney probably isn’t ranked for shit in boxing recently so there wouldn’t be any accomplishments to carry over.
At least Overeem is ranked in K-1 and performing well
There's a big diffference
Toney is no longer a top tier boxer. Overeem, however, is still top 5 (probably top three) in kickboxing. If you’re willing to rank someone based on demonstrated skills (which, let’s be real, happens as a tie breaker when people don’t really have enough overlap to make an honest comparison for the rankings), his K1 victories can be important. It’s not a big point to him, but it’s not completely irrelevant.
do you mean the Toney that isn't even ranked in the top 20 HWs in boxing?
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
He kind of deserves to be there by default sadly
Personally I think he loses to all of the top6 + Mir, Schaub and Nelson – but thats because the level of competition in the HW division is so thin. Having said that, my guesses are no better than the other shmoes who think he shits on everyone else in the world. They’re still just guesses. Based on quality of wins, I think he belongs anywhere between 6 and 12, depending on how you want to argue.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Nov 15, 2010 6:14 PM EST reply actions
I don't think Mir would have a chance
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
by slapjaw ackrite on Nov 15, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
High level of competition is the key and Overeem just doesn’t have it.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Prepare for tons of people...
telling you Brett Rogers was a “high level of competition.”
by William Wilson on Nov 15, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
I do recall Nelson being KO’d by AA.
by memitim on Nov 15, 2010 7:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
After a bullshit stand up while he was in side control working a kimura (Roy also took the fight on short notice).
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
Was he still in side control?
Then it’s a shitty stand up.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
It was a bullshit standup but it wasn’t like Roy was threatening to finish the fight that minute. Up until then Arlovski had defended himself well. Was it a bad standup? yes. Did it cost Nelson the fight? I think Arlovski teeing off on him standing played a bigger part.
by John Nash on Nov 15, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Teeing off on him standing is predicated by getting the moon off of you. Nice assist from Big Orange.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
its hard to tee off on a 265 lb Renzo black belt whe he is holding you in side control.
Arlovski wasn’t getting up without the ref.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Nov 16, 2010 2:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's rich Subo
coming from you who has repeatedly argued that Jon Jones’ “loss” should somehow count against him in the rankings…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Um
In one fight, illegal blows led to a stoppage.
In the other fight, a man in side control was robbed of position.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
And then KTFO
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Nov 16, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Um
In one fight, the fight should have already been stopped.
I agree about Roy being robbed of side control, I just think it is funny how you take the opposite side of the argument, depending on who the fighter is.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Nelson also got hosed in that Monson fight.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
THIS
Up there with Ricco/Nog and Uno/Fisher in my worst decisions of all time.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Velasquez
Dos Santos
Lesnar
Carwin
Werdum
Emelianenko
Mir
Nogueira
?
?
Give me two people not named Alistair Overeem who clearly deserve to be there ahead of him.
how is
Brock #3 again? this same clown (dana) declared Brock the #1 HW in the world when he won the belt. his nonsensical bullshit is just that. Brock aint even top 5. He ‘lost’ to Carwin and got destroyed by Cain. if the fighter isn’t in the UFC, dana shits on him.
If Brock lost to Carwin then Velasquez lost to Kongo
"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy
what?
Just because Kongo landed some punches on Cain doesn’t change the fact that Cain dominated the whole fight.
Did you see the second round?
Its not a “1” round fight.
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
Jesus
You even put quotes around the word ‘lost’ because HE WON THAT FIGHT. Brock Lesnar is 1-1 against undefeated monsters since almost dying.
Josh Barnett should be ranked over Overeem, and it makes me want to puke saying that, but it’s true – fighting top ten heavyweights in 2006 is better than never fighting them at all.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
don’t puke – Barnett, steroids aside, is a world class fighter. Brock is bullshit and all of his nuthugger fans refuse to admit it
Brock takes tough fights against tough fighters
Barnett does roids to get rid of his bitch tits and moonlights as a professional wrestler.
I firmly believe Brock would fucking tool Barnett.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
hell the fuck no. Brock is afraid to get hit, Brock’s wrestling/take down abilities have been exposed, Brock has shotty stand up….. Brock is a media hyped MMA fighter, nothing more nothing less, who did NOT deserve a title fight when he got one.
Randy asked for Brock to be his return fight to the UFC after trying to break his contract to fight Fedor. Was Brock supposed to turn the shot down?
Brock has taken down everyone he’s ever fought, and three of those fights (including Cain, whom he took down) were against world class wrestler. You are a hater, sir.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
lol @ taking someone down = good wrestling. Brock did NOT take Carwin down until he absolutely gassed. in fact, he was stuffed time and time again in the first round. Brock couldn’t keep Cain down for more than a few seconds. I don’t hate Brock, I hate the hype that comes w/an unproven MMA fighter
Oh, so take downs don’t count if your opponent is tired. I forgot that part.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I never said they “didn’t count.” i said that when both men were at their peak (first round), he couldn’t do shit. period. my frickin niece coulda taken Gaswin down at that point. c’mon now…open your eyes
Carwin might be the second baddest dude in the HW division. Brock might be the only one that can take a punch from him and not get melted. Brock beat Shane. If you want to say he beat him via better cardio, I’m okay with that – but cardio is a weapon and Brock beat Shane.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I suggest you use
your mind, your wisdom, your intellect
and stop responding to delusional haters.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
That advice has never registered with me
But I can post pictures!
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
i love pictures
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
i have heard of your kind....
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
don't box me into a category
use your mind, your wisdom, your intellect to refute my claims….not a copy/paste article. c’mon now
that i wrote
:)-
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
touche
but i’d hate to be painted w/the same brush as all the other so called haters. i see Brock for he is, a media hyped/driven cash cow
a media hyped/driven cash cow
who started talking about Kimbo Slice?
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VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
i see Brock for he is, a media hyped/driven cash cow
isn’t that what “all the other so called haters” say? =D
btw, I’m not much of a Lesnar fan either, but the man does do a few things REALLY well: explosive take downs, top control, take a punch.
unfortunately, he’s not as good as reacting to a punch as he is at actually just taking one on the chin.
That Brock Lesnar hater cycle picture
Is a hilarious relic of a past where people who liked a fighter that has proven to be exceptionally overrated (not terrible but still way overrated) used to wear their fanship as a sign of superiority. Seriously, that whole post is kind of hilarious now. Its weird you’re hocking it. Must have been a tough few weeks for you.
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I still stands because it is still happening. Same thing happened to Machida
I made it through the past few weeks fine. My free tickets from Dana White to see the event live cushioned the blow so dont worry about me
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VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Its still happening
Because they were kind of right. Randy IS old. If Cawin had a gameplan he would have won. Mir DOES get bullied.
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Carwin had a game plan
It didn’t work.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Carwin did have a gameplan
“finish it in the first round” was it I believe.
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I want to agree with Barnett in the top 10, and he suffers from the same level-of-competition issues as Overeem recently. His 2008 (Monson, Rizzo, and Yoshida) was pretty good, though. The confirmed steroids issue weighs pretty heavily too.
To be honest, its probably some combo of Overeem, Barnett, and/or Antonio Silva in those last two Top 10 spots. Nelson and Schaub just haven’t gotten it done yet.
It’s too bad you’ll never see another of his fights with your “ban” in place.
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by timetraveltome on Nov 16, 2010 3:18 AM EST up reply actions
Dude, relax.
I just threw out the eight names people generally hold in the top ten. I didn’t rank them, just listed them as they came to my head – the “Big 4” of the UFC, the top two non-UFC, and the other two known UFC HWs.
To answer your question, I wouldn’t want to rank Brock or Carwin in the top five, but its a clusterfuck of short-term notoriety, hype, potential, and perceived ability outside of the guys I would have in the Top Four – Cain, JDS, Werdum, Fedor.
So, based on pure speculation.. you are taking a win away? A win is a win, man. Rankings shouldn’t be opinionated in the sense that because you think someone lost… you’ll rank him lower.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
i know a win is a win
but for the quote unquote #1 HW in the world, he sure didn’t look like it two times in a row. If Fedor gets manhandled next fight, I’ll say the same thing, but c’mon. this Brock hype needs to die – the man is OVERRATED
It really doesn’t matter if he “looked” like it or not. If he isn’t the #1 guy, he’ll get beat. Plain and simple.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Who has Lesnar beat?
Yet he seems to be a consensus top 5 heavyweight. I’m not saying Overeem should be ranked ahead of Lesnar by any means, but Overeem has shown enough to be a top 10 HW — which is also a reflection for how shallow the heavyweight class is.
Heath Herring, Randy Couture, Frank Mir, Shane Carwin
Overeem has to show he’s a top ten HW against a top ten HW.
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
All those guys SUCK!
blablahblarghblarghblahblarghgrrrr
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
All good wins
But at the same time, do those wins blow you away? Again, Brock is in the top 5, and I’m not sure that I’d argue that he doesn’t deserve to be there. But it’s not like his resume runs miles long of impressive victories – yet no one argues his place in the top 5 (and many times top 3), yet there’s argument that Overeem can even crack the top 10?
The argument isn't whether Overeem CAN crack the top 10
It’s an argument about what he has to DO to crack the top 10. He hasn’t done ANYTHING deserving of that kind of ranking in MMA.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
OK, so the next question is -- who has done enough?
Brendan Schaub? Roy Nelson? Arlovski has some big wins – does it matter he hasn’t been in the win column in a couple years?
Again – whether it’s because of Overeem’s accomplishments, or its because the HW class is so top-heavy, I don’t see a realistic scenario where Overeem shouldn’t be in the top 10.
It really is the shallowness of the division that even makes this debatable.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
If this were any other division, I’d agree with you that Overeem hasn’t done enough. If this were any other division, I’d put Brock towards the bottom of the top 10, maybe even drop him. But it’s where the heavyweight division is these days.
Except
Overeem destroyed the then #8 HW in Rogers, and it was only after that they everyone denounced Rogers as a can…same as it ever was…
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by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
He’s still accomplished more as a HW than Overeem.
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agreed there but no way he (Brock) should’ve ever been mentioned as #1, nevermind top #5. Dana called him the best in the world, which he is/was NOT, was simply just a ploy to get people to buy PPVs
Yeah that's it, just a ploy
Because his PPVs were doing terrible business up to that point. Got it.
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Overeem hasn’t earned a top ten spot (his heavyweight fight record is a joke) but heavyweight sucks as a division and Overeem has done a lot outside of heavyweight that rankers are going to take into account so I can see him slipping in there. Personally I agree with Dana’s opinion on Overeem’s rankings but then I also believe that Overeem is much better than where he should actually be ranked. Based on his actual fight record I don’t know if I would rank him in the top fifteen and maybe not even a top twenty list but based on what we can see of what he is capable of then I can see him being a future top five or even number one provided he actually gets out there and fights someone. In the end subjective rankings just aren’t very good and Overeem gets a huge bump based on what he could do as opposed to what he’s already done.
You can’t do official rankings that way, but the rankings in my head say Overeem is floating around top 5. The big question is his takedown defense and guard, but being super strong generally helps with TDD. I have a feeling he’d eviscerate Lesnar and Carwin, but I’m not sure we’ll ever get to see it.
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There are a lot of questions in my head about him but his upside potential is also very high. I don’t agree with his ranking at all (his actual fight record at heavyweight is just terrible) but his abilities should put him way ahead of where he should be ranked anyway. I’d like to see him fight someone who actually could offer him a decent fight before I would say where he should be but I would be excited to see him get those fights.
alright
it not alistar fault that the promotions he fights for cant find him any top ten worthy oppenents
all his oppents have been below par but he has absolutly destroyed all these guys
that prob why he fighting in k-1
So congrats to you Alistair for destroying guys you who are light years below you.
not to mention……… he could always, you know, go fight for a promotion who has top ten fighters.
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
Let him win K-1. He might be more open to a UFC contract after that (assuming he gets through Werdum/Fedor and Silva).
at the current rate that will be in about 2013 or 14 so i wont be holding breath.
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VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
MY breath....
jeez
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VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha, point taken. although he did say he wanted to focus on SF this coming year and take time off from Japan/kickboxing. one can hope, right?
definitely.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
Fighting Gary Goodridge post-2005 should earn a fighter negative ranking points (and possibly assault charges) and do we even need to discuss him fighting a 39 year old Fujita or James Thompson? The guys Overeem was fighting were not only not top ten worthy opponents they weren’t worthy of even being on a major card at this point.
Kongo
It’s interesting how you stopped right at the loss to Herring, and didn’t proceed to the biggest win of his career over (then top 10) Cro Cop
Is it totally wrong
To consider his K1 accomplishments?
Depends
Did you have James Toney as a top fifteen fighter because of his boxing accomplishments?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
That's a brutal strawman
Toney had literally zero MMA experience so we had no idea whether he could grapple for anything (well, actually we did know, but you get the point). Overeem can obviously grapple…….and the K-1 accomplishments just attest to the fact that he is a monster on his feet. Would you agree that Overeem is likely the best striker at HW in MMA?
Basically no one here is saying that winning the K-1 GP is going to rank him #1 in MMA or anything, but that’s solid evidence that he is one of the best strikers in the world let alone just in MMA. To me, that does count for something given that we do have background on the other areas of his MMA game.
Not afraid to nitpick
I need to see Overeem against a good MMA HW before I declare him “likely the best” at ANYTHING.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
At striking?
I understand the threat of a takedown changes the game, but do you really think a single MMA HW will be gameplanning “hey if I can just keep this on my feet…” against him?
Not afraid to nitpick
We’ll never know until it happens. Who’s to say AO’s stand-up isn’t affected by his opponent? He wasn’t worried about a Rogers takedown in the least – you don’t think facing a wrestler would adjust his stance?
These are all hypotheticals, which are shitty reasons to rank fighters.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I literally just said that the threat of a takedown changes the game
And again I ask, is there a single MMA HW fighter who would gameplan to try to strike with Overeem in an MMA match?
Not afraid to nitpick
What was Semmy’s highest ranking?
by memitim on Nov 15, 2010 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
No
we talk about Maia having a ADCC champ.
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Semper Fi'
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Pain don't hurt...
yeah you can talk about it but Maia has relevant wins
Sure AO has awesome K-1 accomplishments…so what. What’s he done in MMA? Agreed i’d love to see the fights, but that’s the future.
PS VICK IS DESTROYING THE REDSKIIIIINS YEAH
by Body Triangle on Nov 15, 2010 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Reem has wins over
Vitor Belfort twice
Paul Buentello
Brett Rodgers
Igor Vochanchin
Roman Zentsov
Sergei Kharitonov
Mark Hunt
Gary Goodridge
James Thompson
Kazuyuki Fujita
He’s done enough to be in the top 10
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Semper Fi'
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Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 15, 2010 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR LIST
most of them people are not top fighters.he beat vitor in two different weight divisons. you going give shogun a heavyweight ranking just because he crushed reem twice of course not.
by BIGNAT on Nov 15, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Reem is top 10
no question.
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Semper Fi'
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Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 16, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
The huge problem with that list is that many of those were during his shitty LHW run as well, but I wouldn’t argue with your overall point.
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by Leland Roling on Nov 16, 2010 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
Gary Goodridge
James Thompson
Kazuyuki Fujita
For those three fights alone (not to mention that those are included in his most recent fights)I wouldn’t rank him in the top ten right now. Those aren’t even gabage wins they are so pathetic they should give negative ranking points for even being involved in them. You trying to use them to point to Overeem deserving a top ten ranking is just crazy.
Here is Overeem’s heavyweight fights:
Win Brett Rogers 05/15/2010
Win Kazuyuki Fujita 12/31/2009
Win James Thompson 10/25/2009
Win Tony Sylvester 10/17/2009
Win Gary Goodridge 11/09/2008
NC Mirko Filipovic 9/23/2008
Win Mark Hunt 7/21/2008
Win Tae Hyun Lee 6/15/2008
Win Paul Buentello 11/16/2007
Loss Sergei Kharitonov 9/17/2007
Win Michael Knaap 6/23/2007
Win Vitor Belfort 6/9/2006
Loss Fabricio Werdum 5/5/2006
Win Nikolajus Cilkinas 3/18/2006
Win Sergei Kharitonov 2/26/2006
Pretend you know nothing about Overeem and all you had to go by was his record of accomplishments at heavyweight for the last three years, would you rank him in the top ten based on that? Would you rank him at all based on that? We can tell he is capable of much more than that but that record is all he has actually done to prove where he should be ranked. Use only that and show how he should be ranked in the top ten.
Well, considering
Overeem is 7-0 over the last 3 years. Total time for those 7 wins – 10 minutes and 34 seconds. Combined.
His only top-10 opponent during that time was Cro Cop (#9) in DREAM and he was completely dominating Cro Cop on the feet and on the ground prior to the groin strikes that lead to the NC. And IIRC, I don’t think Cro-Cop landed a single solid strike.
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by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
we have a winner
also his K-1 fights mean his striking is at the top of any MMA weight div.
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Agreed
I suspect Cain, who is used to taking down bigger, stronger guys could take Overeem down and probably beat him. Anybody else I would take Overeem against, particularly JDS.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Completely forgot...
He is actually 8-0 over the last 3 years, with a top-10 win over Rogers (#8) and a destruction of #9 (Cro Cop) which was recorded as a NC due to groin strikes at the end.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 17, 2010 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
he defended it once in 3 years. his title means shit and his k1 shouldnt count for anything… but there are just as many arguments for him to be ranked #9 as there are that he shouldnt be ranked in the top 10 so it’s almost not even worth the argument.
He could be ranked anywhere from #9 on up with arguments supporting both ends and really it’s because the HW division is not very deep.
Overeem has yet to fight a legitimate top HW. He’s certainly not a proven top 6 or 7 yet. He definitely shouldnt be ranked above big nog. You cant just move up the rankings automatically because you’re not fighting anybody.
He looks like he could be a top 5 HW if he actually fought some guys to prove it but he hasnt yet.
He needs to fight Werdum or Fedor and one of them could be tossed out of the top 5 to make room for him. Werdum is a butt scooter and anyone willing to have a boring fight ala arlovski will beat him. .. Werdum isnt a top 5 and wont stay there as soon as he starts fighting again.
Fedor is a question mark because he looks like he’s getting old and it’s the same with him, he needs to fight a top guy to remain relevant. He fought once in like forever against a hand picked opponent and got chocked out.
All I know is
Brock beats Fedor 3 out of 5 times.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Shit just got real
Im gonna get in my y2k bunker for this one
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
depends on whether Fedor can stop that initial takedown. if he can, its Cain-Brock five times over again. if not, it could be Brock-Mir, as he controlled Mir’s guard pretty well and I’m not ready to equate him to Randleman yet.
Exactly
I don’t think Fedor will be able to stop Brocks TD enough to stun him standing, which is where Brock gets into trouble. Once Brock is on him, he is going to smash Fedors paper thin face.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
No need for takedown defense.
BOW!! Ko, easy.
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Some French Canadian dude.
by spectaa on Nov 15, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Have people forgotten how good Fedor is on the ground both grappling and ground and pound, not to mention he has a granite chin. Brock leaves his arm in and Fedor snaps it off. That’s if it gets to the ground.
by memitim on Nov 15, 2010 7:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Certainly not an ice cream eating contest.
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That could probably be a co-main event for DYNAMITE!!! 2010 since I guess Country is still under contract with Roy Jones.
and I’m talking about the Ice Cream Eating contest, mind you, not the fight.
yeah
because we all know Fedor would duck the fight.
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VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
You can hate Zuffa and still acknowledge that Fedor ducks fights.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
gosh I was just kidding
kinda
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VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
I hold Fedor responsible for his management. It wasn’t like they found him and just decided to represent him without his knowledge.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
True perhaps,
but PRIDE was a long, long time ago in MMA years…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 15, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
if Fedor is willing to fight this man:
I think he’d be willing to fight the President of the Country Club.
Yeah, Brock has a nasty triangle and Fedor has no power.
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I find it unlikely
that Fedor puts Brock on his back. If he managed to somehow do that, Brock would be toast.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Brock tends to go to his back
When he gets hit by a hard shot. Fedor tends to hit people with hard shots.
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I will put twenty against ten
That Carwin and Cain both hit harder than Fedor does.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
based on what? c’mon dude, now you’re grasping at shit. have you been hit by any of those three? what is your opinion based on?
The fact that Fedor very rarely knocks people out, Carwin has face-melting power and that Cain is bigger and stronger while not demonstrably slower?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
So someone gets credit for what they did to Cheick Fucking Kongo but Couture, Mir and Herring are bullshit wins????
You have revealed yourself.
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by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
You have revealed your poor reading skills mdh
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
aw.
I have to admit, it is hard to keep up with this clusterfuck.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
Carwin probably not
But Fedor has shown more power than Cain ever has.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Because Fedor KO'd Nog
each time they fought?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
See this is your mistake
Anyone that beat Nog BEFORE he came to the UFC beat a world class HW.
Anyone that beat Nog AFTER he came to the UFC beat a worthless shell of a man.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shit, I forgot
As soon as Nog fight in a cage it magically shot him as a fighter.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
s'ok
People forget that all the time.
/being a moron
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Are you suggesting that 2010 Nog's chin is comparable to 2004 Nog's chin?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Ask yourself
When did Nogs chin go bad? What fight did he get laid out cold where we all realized his chin was shot? Typically, you see a fighter lose his beard after getting tagged and hurt. Was it Mir? I could see Mir starting the process, but Cain finished it.
The fact is, people say Nog has a shot chin because Mir and Cain tagged him up and if he is the same fighter as before it makes our old PRIDE heroes look bad. He looks the same as ever to me, maybe a little slower.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Plenty of people said it went bad at Timmay.
But if you think that sure. But its been six fucking years of high level competition for Nog. He’s going to slow down.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Really?
Man, Timmy vs Nog looked like vintage Nog to me.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
I think that might be the problem
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Whose lights has Cain put out the way Fedor has KO’d guys.
by memitim on Nov 15, 2010 7:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Again
Nog. The guy Fedor couldn’t KO in 28 tries. Although to be fair, I think he cut about 15 years off his life.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, not buying it. Fedor hits like an ICBM, and Brock likes to fall over and turtle up at any sign of power.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think 5’11 229 lb Fedor hits harder than either of Brock’s previous opponents, and I am damn sure he’s not a wrestler of the same class.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
Fedor has a proven history of nonchalantly submitting wrestlers. Brock’s size and strength are obvious obstacles, but I’m not going to say Brock wins that 3 out of 5. I’m very low on Fedor right now, but I have a feeling he’ll reassert himself as a bad mofo very soon.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Well
He does have to fight someone in order for that to happen, so…
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Wes Sims
is available Im sure
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
no idea…….that is certainly a better place for him than competing in mma
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
My issue is
the wrestler Fedor subbed out so easy didn’t have the wherewithal to train BJJ like Brock and they weren’t nearly as good athletes.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
He has simply never faced any of the new school mma wrestlers who, by definition, have decent or better submission offense and defense.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Fedor hits damn hard
but not harder than Carwin, I reckon. The issue is, I think Fedor wins if he can land one of those power shots but I don’t think he will. I think Brock takes him down fairly easy before getting tagged.
That’s why I said 3 outta 5, though. Because he could nail Brock and then it’s game over.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Correct
I wrote that piece immediately after the Rogers/Fedor fight.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just wanting to point out
that even with Brocks losses it’s still a horrible match-up for Fedor.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
So you wrote that piece
Before Lesnar hit his wall. You don’t think your perceptions of either fighters has changed since then?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Well
Fedor sure hasn’t inspired confidence since then.
Let me ask you this: Does Fedor beat Carwin or Cain?
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think he beats Carwin
Just because Fedor seems to win fights like that. Cain would be the betting favorite for sure, but that’s definitely a fight I’d like to see.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Hmmm
I think Carwin/Fedor is 50/50… maybe 40/60 in favor of Fedor. I’d take Cain 5 outta 5.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think Fedor takes Carwin and prolly Lesnar as well 7/10 times, but loses to Cain 9/10 and JDS would be about even at 5/10.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
I’ll take even odds on any fights with Fedor. When he fights in 2012, hit me up.
You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.
by timetraveltome on Nov 16, 2010 3:34 AM EST up reply actions
My ass...
brock doesnt respond well to being punched in the face…Fedor could unleash a nice flurry and drop him and go ape shit like he did to werdum…except brock wont be able to submit him. Fedor, with the right mindset, beats anyone IMO.
I’ve posted it before but here’s my top 5 based on accomplishments since 2008:
1. Cain is 6-0 with wins over #1, #4, #12, #19
2. Junior Dos Santos is 7-0 with wins over #5. #15, #15, #18, #22
3. Werdum is 5-1 with wins over #1, #4, #16, #22 and lost an unranked opponent (JSD)
T4. Fedor is 3-1 with wins over #2, #5, #8 and a loss to #9
T4. Brock is 4-2 with wins over #3, #3, #7, #12, and losses to #4 and an unranked opponent (Mir)
If anyone has a better order than that they better have a damn good reason.
My #1 is Brock Lesnar
because of BROCKLESNAR!!!!!!
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
I think I used up all my damn funny for the day in fighters fighting three times a week fanpost. I could come up with a gif of Brock Lesner f-5’ing a shark but that’s probably not going to cut it.
How about this?
Alistair Overeem Cycles Horse Meat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLdum69UGrk
A youtube video that funny should be worth some ranking points.
I say we scrap HW rankings 7 through 10
Top 6 guys make the cut, we leave 7 through 10 rankings vacant, start up again with #11. Problem solved.
this is better
I say we scrap HW rankings 7 through 10
Top 6 guys make the cut, we leave 7 through 10 rankings vacant, start up again with #11. Problem solved.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
Quit trying to take money out of my pocket.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Nov 15, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
i take it all back.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 16, 2010 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
Im so tired of Dana White’s opinion, yet i love MMA news. Someone get him a muzzle to solve this problem.
you could always, you know, not read it.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
good luck with that.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
That's a pickle
Seeing as how the two are intimately intertwined.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Why doesn’t Dana have any urgency to get him in the UFC? I think he could be a huge star with his talents. Surely Dana must see this? Unless he is afraid of steroid allegations/ K-1 commitments.
steroid allegations are something to be concerned about in dealing with athletes in general.
Dana has tried to get Overeem. He even had him at an event and on a video blog (I cannot remember which one though)
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Dana doesn’t seem too concerned about his fighters who have tested positive for steroids.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
nope.
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
Just playing devil's advocate...
Everyone wants to talk about ranking with no speculative fights and only “what’s happened in the cage”.
Fedor owned the lineal heavyweight title. He’s never fought Brock, why is Brock above him?
Because Fedor got chocked out in 69 seconds by a guy with a 2-2 UFC record.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
*choked
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
and what was Wedum's ranking before that fight?
"You sonofabitch! Gimme my plunger back." - Josh Koscheck
VelociAldo is the smartest guy on bloodyelbow.com
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
by Earl Montclair on Nov 15, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
Edgar vs. Penn I.
Edgar was 8th, jumped to #1. The “beat the man to be the man” argument is neither pro-Zuffa or anti-Zuffa, but a wash if you want to stay logically consistent.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
It’s arguable that Penn had a better grip on #1 than Fedor did at the time of each of their losses.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Richard is a jewel." - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Nov 15, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I had him in the top 10, I don't remember what number though. I have him as 4 now.
Beating Fedor is BIG. I’ve had Fedor as my number one heavyweight for years. With that being said I still have Fedor ranked higher than him. I don’t have Brock ahead of him either. Personally my top 5 goes like this.
1. Cain Velasquez
2. Fedor
3. Lesnar
4. Werdum
5. Carwin
I’ve gotta give Velasquez the nod here. He’s the champ in the best org out there and his win over Lesnar was scary good. That and his win over Big Nog were impressive enough to be number one. I find the rest speak for themselves.
Lesnar and Carwin above JDS
That’s something. Two guys coming off losses ranked above the #1 contender, on a win streak better than either of those guys ever put together.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Nov 16, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
He went from 9th to 3rd after beating the basically undefeated for a decade Fedor. I always find it funny when people bring up Werdum’s UFC record and leave out that he was in line for a title shot.
The operative word in that sentence is "was"
Until he came in fat, was almost decapitated by a rookie, and refused a pay cut.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that was Werdum’s pride overlooking the rookie, not getting ready, and JDS did what he was supposed to do and now he is the number one contender a short time after. I’m sure that is a lesson that Werdum learned very quickly. JDS had no business being in that fight against Werdum anyway. It speaks as much to JDS’ talent kind of like Mousasi finishing O’Brien in :31 seconds.
What?
JDS beating a top 5 HW somehow shows that Gegard fighting someone ranked near 20 has a ton of talent?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Nov 15, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
So what you’re saying is at some point MMA math and speculative rankings DO determine how rankings are decided. Got it
by nastyem on Nov 15, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
If they signed Overeem today Dana would change his tune
But yeah….Overeem isn’t top 10 at all.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
And I see this thread did a good job of devolving into a discussion of Brock Lesnar
You hate him but you can’t stop talking about him.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Dunno why so many people lose their shit over rankings. There’s no perfect system possible with the split in a talent pool. The BE/USA Today HW rankings look fairly accurate to me all things considered.
Jesse Holland shouldn’t be getting a ballot though…
by nastyem on Nov 15, 2010 7:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Reem is legit top 10
and Dana would cream his pants if he signed him.
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
Ugh too many comments for me to join in
I just find it funny how Dana White at the Q&A just gave off the ‘Yeah anyone who’s considered the best in the world’ when Joe and audience were in front of him.
Food goes in here
Alright...
I definitely disagree with Dana here. Overeem is a top 10 but the people who are saying he is number one or even top 3 are insane. Start beating people in the top 10 and maybe I’ll rank Overeem higher than 7 on my top 10 heavyweights list.
I think Overeem's performances in K-1 are affecting his spot in the rankings
I think Overeem would do really well in the UFC.
Overeem is D4D (Dollar for Dollar) Top 10. One of the only athletes in the sport who always delivers excitement and high level action. Where he places in the crusty, slow-moving HW top ten is completely meaningless. Anybody who thinks he wouldn’t straight up murder Nogueira or Mir or Carwin at this point is just kidding themselves.
Very true
not only murder them but give a HW in in world a run for their money. Id like to see what kind of comments start popping up once he TKFO werdum/fedor/bigfoot.
Carwin would take him down and brutalize him.
Luke: What was our best moment?
Nate: When I banned Subo?
Luke: That was a good one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Nov 15, 2010 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
No way
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Nov 15, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
When reached for his opinion on this matter, Dana White had this to say:
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Unintelligent Defense, I bring Cricket bats to fist fights.
Personally, I rank fighters based on who I would favour winning in a betting sense. I would have great trouble betting against Overeem against all but the very top of the UFC HW division. Namely, Cain, Carwin and JDS. Maybe Brock, but I would question how he would handle K1 level striking.
Saying that K1 level striking should have no regard in analysing the potential of a MMA fighter makes as little sense as discounting a div 1 wrestling champs grappling credentials.
Generally speaking, so do I,
and I would definitely favor Cain over Reem, and perhaps Carwin depending on how he looks in his next fight, but I can’t see JDS having anything for Overeem.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 3:06 AM EST up reply actions
Someone should ask Dana on twitter to give us his top 10 hw. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was all ufc fighters with kongo and cro cop at 9 and 10..
You could make an arguement for putting Schaub above him
He doesn’t have any victories over top ten guys but I’d say that the guys he has beaten are better than the guys Overeem has beaten. You would have to make a top 40 list to start seeing most of Overeem’s opponents and even then a few of them wouldn’t make the cut.
I agree completely, he definitely has the POTENTIAL to be top 10,
but who has he beat? And ultimately, competition is what warrants a ranking.
by theworldismine on Nov 15, 2010 11:13 PM EST reply actions
The problem is the arbitrary "10" in the top 10 rankings.
NOT the sentiment that Overeem does not belong among the uber-elite at HW. For whatever age-old reason, 10 is the number we use to make our “top” lists, which is fine when debating the best albums of all time (because there’s likely way more than 10 great ones from which to choose, so debate can be informed but also spirited), but not so fine when you’re trying to figure out who the best fighters in the world are (because at HW, there AREN’T 10 who are all in the same upper-echelon).
I guess what I’m trying to say here is I think Dana’s intention is to indicate that Overeem is not an elite HW, at least not by the yardstick of his past opponents. And I agree with him if that’s the case. But Dana’s definition of “elite” is flawed, because he’s using the mythic Top 10 as a synonym for “elite,” which in this case it’s simply not.
This all probably reads like nonsense but hopefully someone will understand what I’m saying and make it sound better.
Mir is definitely above Overeem. It then comes down to whether you value trumping shit competition (like Overeem has) or better wins peppered with some not-so-impressive losses (in which case Nogueira and Nelson should be considered). I can see him not unreasonably ranked between 8 and 10. I do, however, hate all those team takeover assholes who put him in the top 3.
Also, this list does not include Barnett. Barnett’s record for the last three years: wins against Geronimo Dos Santos, Siala-Mou Siliga, Gilbert Yvel, Pedro Rizzo, Jeff Monson, Hidehiko Yoshida, losses against CSAC. I think, in spite of the fact that he’s a dirty, dirty cheater, he belongs in the conversation around the 10-slot.
It would not even be a competitive fight
Overeem would likely come in favored at significantly more than -300, and utterly destroy Mir, no matter what the “rankings” said.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 3:37 AM EST up reply actions
Shouldn't we take into account the performance?
Rogers looked impressive in the 1st round against the then No.1 HW fighter in the world but was totally demolished by Overeem.
I don’t think everyone was counting out Rogers that easily before that fight. Yeah he might’ve been rushed into the Top 10 HW rankings but let’s be fair. That thing’s hardly been stable now has it?
Yepper
I was ridiculed for stating what I saw as the obvious, that Overeem was going to run through Rogers far more easily than Fedor did. Suffice it to say I was very much in the minority.
Once he finally gets to face some of the top guys (either Fedor, Werdum or someone in the UFC), should he dominate them as I think he would (excepting Cain), it will be Sonnen – Silva (and by extension GSP – Silva) all over again where the few of us calling the fight to go pretty much as it did had our sanity questioned before the fight, whereas now its obvious to everyone else that an MMA Wrestler is what is needed to beat Anderson.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Prior to the Warpath bout
Rogers to me has a resume paralleling Carwin, good streak of wins against some low-mid tier opposition and each having a big win over former UFC Champion (in Arlovski and Mir respectively). Only difference is Brett gets tossed under the bus (even prior to the Warpath fight) while Carwin sitll actively keeps a high ranking.
Food goes in here
That is exactly right
I just don’t understand why so many have such a hard time understanding this simple fact…maybe it messes with their own private reality a bit too much…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
I find it funny that most sites rank Werdum as the 2nd best HW even though he got knocked out in less then a minute by Junior Dos Santos who most sites have ranked at either 4th or 5th. I think that Cain Velasquez and Dos Santos are the number 1 and 2 heavyweights in the world and I can’t wait for that fight.
Maynard beat Edgar before, so is he the number 1 lightweight?
When Serra beat GSP he was number 1 but the last guy to beat him was Karo, so was Karo the number 1 WW at that period?
You gotta realize the context and where fighters were in their careers. It’s like saying Rocky Marciano’s win over Joe Louis equates to a win over Louis in his prime which is clearly not the case.
Food goes in here
I think its hilarious too
You don’t jump up 8-10 spots in the rankings just because of a fluke win….
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Dana could sell used cars if this UFC thing ever falls through
I would love to see Dana’s top ten. I also would love to hear him give it and not smile. I understand he is promoting his brand but he is also insulting MMA fans when he spouts this BS. He seamlessly goes from a respected buisnessman to a bullshit spouting Freddie Blassie.
Root for the home team jack ass
Great Work Mike
I’d put him at 8 but still believe he’d give UFC’s top 5 a hard time
I’m not resting until I’m officially Anderson Silva status.- Jon "Bones" Jones
I partially agree with Dana White.
Overeem is a great fighter and has had a great run in K-1 (although people tend to forget he got TKOd last year).
In MMA at HW, he has no wins versus a Top10 HW. IMO this would warrant him at most a lower half Top10 HW ranking. Things could change once he starts winning vs. Top10 guys.
About Fedor, I think Dana is horribly wrong. If you look at the ranking of Fedor’s last four opponents at the moment they fought him, they were all Top10 HWs: AA had left the UFC on his own (Dana even publicly stated he wanted him back at the time), was on a 5-fight winning streak and was considered a Top3 HW when he fought Fedor; Sylvia had just fought for the UFC HW title and lost to big Nog and was still considered a Top10 HW – a lot of journalists even argued he’d pose Fedor problems; Rogers was a Top10 HW when he fought Fedor and he was on a 10 fight winning streak.
That being said, I agree with current rankings placing Velasquez on the top.
However, the top UFC HWs (Velasquez, JDS, Carwin, Lesnar) have very few wins vs. Top10 HWs and are rather green. That’s not a measure of their skills, but I think people should think about it before bashing Fedor.
EVERYone gets KO'ed in K-1
EVERYONE!
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
*except Semmy Schilt
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
Yes, except
Overeem has a win over a top-10 guy during his 8-0 streak at HW in MMA over the last 3 years (Rogers, #8).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Nov 16, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
C'mon people he's top 10.....just look at him,
LOOK AT HIM!
"From the womb to the tomb, spit sick lyrics like MF Doom"
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
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