What's Next for Brock Lesnar, Cain Velasquez, and the UFC's Heavyweight Division?
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 26, 2010 9:50 AM EDT
in UFC Analysis
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New champion Cain Velasquez has no time to rest on his laurels. The UFC heavyweight kingpin, fresh off of a career defining win over Brock Lesnar and currently making the media rounds, knows exactly what's next for him. After taking some much deserved time with his family, Velasquez will do battle with fearsome Brazilian striker Junior dos Santos.
Velasquez will have to create a strategy from scratch - dos Santos is like the Bizarro Lesnar. Instead of dealing with a stronger and better wrestler, Velasquez will be face to face with a fearsome knockout artist. It's something that hasn't escaped the American Kickboxing Academy product:
"[Dos Santos] probably has the best stand-up in the heavyweight division. Plus, he has good takedown defense. He’ll definitely be a tough challenge for me."
Less certain? What's next for former champion Brock Lesnar. The former WWE star was part of a bizarre publicity stunt with The Undertaker that saw the legendary wrestler try to setup a Wrestlemania showdown. Lesnar and Taker would be a huge coup for the WWE and it's a match wrestling reporter Dave Meltzer says WWE owner Vince McMahon is very interested in:
Regarding the Undertaker-Brock Lesnar thing from last night, WWE has made Lesnar an offer to face Undertaker at WrestleMania. I don't expect anything to come of it, but nobody can read Lesnar's mind. It's smart business for Vince if he can pull it off. It was kept secret from many, if not most or all of creative. Obviously it was the talk of things backstage in Minneapolis today and everyone was asking everyone if they knew what was up.
UFC President Dana White told TMZ that it isn't going to happen:
Brock Lesnar is still under contract with the UFC ... he is not going to wrestle in the WWE. He cannot wrestle, box or fight anywhere else.
So what will be next for Lesnar? Sources tell me he will take several weeks before making any decisions. The UFC will likely offer him a rubber match with Frank Mir. While many expect that to be a big money fight, it's possible that high profile losses by both men has caused the fight to lose some luster.
If Lesnar wants to go another direction, possibly a rematch with Shane Carwin, another fighter has his sights set on Mir. Brendan Schaub won the biggest fight of his career Saturday night. Now he's looking to propel himself right into the the mix - and he's looking to use Mir as a stepping stone:
"I'd love to match up with Frank Mir. He's one of the stars in the division, and I think I would give him a lot of problems."
"It's in (UFC president) Dana White and (UFC matchmaker) Joe Silva's hands, but I think that would be a good fight for me," he said.
Despite constant complaining from a subset of MMA fans, the future remains promising for the heavyweight division in MMA. But it's a future that will need to be carefully crafted by UFC matchmaker Joe Silva. Getting the most value from veterans like Mir, while also building future stars like Schaub, is no easy task. It will be most interesting to see how Silva navigates these bumpy waters as the Velasquez/dos Santos/Carwin/Lesnar quartet battle for the title.
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Cain vs Dos Santos, Lesnar vs Mir III and Brendan Schaub facing the winner of Carwin vs Nelson seems the most logical thing for me.
Except that Carwin will probably beat Nelson, and there’s no way in hell Schaub and Carwin are ever going to fight each other (very close training partners).
by Horselover Fat on Oct 26, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Brendan Shaub facing the winner of who?
Brendan Shaub should wait for the loser of that fight. Brock vs. Mir makes sense. Or Dana could turn the table and setup Brock Lesnar vs. the Undertaker in the UFC 128 or something. :)
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Schuab vs. winner of Struve/McCorkle maybe
I could see them doing Mir/Schaub if Mir/Lesnar doesn’t happen for whatever reason, but I don’t know what Schaub brings to the table against Mir. Even with his win over Gonzaga I’m still not sold on Schaub as the next big HW prospect.
Seconded
Gonzaga put no pressure on him and totally let him dictate the fight. Roy Nelson did nothing but put pressure on him and made him take a nap.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
by menckenstein on Oct 26, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
And look at how other prospects handled Gonzaga – JDS and Carwin blitzed him. Gonzaga was giving that fight away at some points and Schaub couldn’t put him down. Maybe he is the next big thing, but he’s not that now, and it wasn’t apparent in what’s been his second toughest fight in the octagon to date.
Schaub is not a money maker for UFC.
Not yet. To give him Mir or Lesnar and risk them losing to him, I guess Mir is possible. But if Mir somehow loses to Schaub, then what? Mir vs. Lesnar III would be out forever. I think Brock should take on Mir vs. Nog winner for a title shot? or something like that?
So here is what I see
JDS vs. Cain → winner —> (Shane Carwin vs. Roy Nelson) vs. (Nog vs. Mir)? Maybe? and one of the loser of that quandary (nelson or nog or someone) facing Lesnar.
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
JDS vs. Cain → winner —> (Shane Carwin vs. Roy Nelson) vs. (Nog vs. Mir)? Maybe? and one of the loser of that quandary (nelson or nog or someone) facing Lesnar.
Or maybe substitute Lesnar for Nog there against Mir in those brackets, if only because I’m unclear on the timetable for Nog’s return. If anything, Nog can rematch Cro Cop in the meantime if it comes down to it.
I would not put Lesnar against a striker in his next two fights.
I am sorry. Dana either needs to protect Lesnar till he gets some confidence in his stand up or he’ll lose. I am not sure he can beat Carwin even if he batters Mir again. He needs two fights to get some confidence back and maybe improve his stand up
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe switch up those brackets a bit then. (Lesnar vs. Mir) vs. (Nog vs. Cro Cop) while the (Carwin/Nelson) goes straight to (Cain/JDS)?
Or Lesnar vs. Crocop
vs. the winner of Mir and Nog. That way he gets to fight Crocop, retire him maybe. Then go and beat Mir and Nog and get a title shot. In the meantime, Carwin gets the winner of JDS Cain. The loser of that fight can get the loser of these 4 other guys? UFC has a lot of options if Vince allows it. haha
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Mir vs. Lesnar III is always going to be there
It doesn’t matter if Mir loses to Schaub, particularly if they give Brock a guy clearly below Mir like Kongo, who I think is a perfect rebound match.
Brock can learn some striking defense and composure under fire, try to stand with Kongo to test it out, and if he gets in trouble then he can easily take it to the ground and win.
After that, Brock fights Mir, gets another win, and you can either put him up against an up and comer or throw him up against the lions again.
Lesnar/Taker wouldn't be a match
It would be like Mickey Rourke showing up and punching Jericho or Tyson being the special enforcer.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 26, 2010 9:11 AM EDT reply actions
I wonder if Dana will ban active pro wrestlers from his building
when Brock fights. I mean yes. This Lesnar thing got a lot of publicity but it has become a joke now. It would have been a more serious offer if Michelle, Undertaker’s wife, actually made the challenge :)
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Indeed. Kimbo-Lesnar FTW
Anyone think that this fight could be sanctioned? :)
I think Brock should take some time off to work on some things and come back and face the winner of Frank Mir vs Brendan Schaub. If he wins that then rematch Carwin for a title shot.
That would work really well with the wrestling offer
With all his experience, I don’t think he’d have to do too much wrestling-specific training. Just do your thing, collect a paycheck, and work on your MMA game.
Non-compete clauses for people without trade secrets really irks me. If what the UFC does is so special, then they will be able to outbid any offer from other promotions for these athletes. If it isn’t special, then they don’t deserve the ability to maintain their monopoly.
Oh yeah, it should be noted that the UFC was only able to sign Lesnar because the courts found that Brock’s non-compete clause with the WWE – despite being voluntarily signed – was illegal restraint of trade. The shoe is simply on the other foot this time.
Lesnar/WWE reached a settlement
The case never was decided.
Not to mention Lesnar signed the non-compete after “retiring” from pro-wrestling, so the c-law implications are much different than the contractual obligations Lesnar has to the UFC while still under their control.
Not afraid to nitpick
WWF only settles when they are wrong and don't want a legal precedent set
Jerry McDevitt is a bulldog.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 26, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
There were some strong words from the judge to the WWE, so AFAICS Lesnar was going to get a judgment in his favor and therefore the WWE paid him off.
Same thing happened with Couture. For him, the main cost of the battle was that he was sitting around and couldn’t fight. He even had Mark Cuban backing him. One day before the first court date, the UFC settles. Geez, I wonder what happened…
If your whole business is riding on certain practices of yours, you do not want a legal precedent to be set. It very rare that someone in the UFC or WWE would have enough power and financial resources to challenge them.
If anyone thinks DW is going to let Lesnar go to the WWE while he's under UFC contract
That person is certifiable.
Not afraid to nitpick
There are about a billion ways I can see it happening. Certainly Lesnar sits in a position with a lot of power to get what he wants.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 26, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
didn't we expect Lesnar and Dana to butt heads
Lesnar is a difficult person to deal with. He does not want to do media. I am not sure he wants to deal with Vince Kennedy McMahon for more than maybe once or twice. I know Kurt Angle and Bill Goldberg were saying on Twitter that Brock is fine and will be back. Where? That’s another story. I wonder if WWE’s competitor, what’s their name, may also offer Brock something to fight a Hogan or something.
Hogan is still wrestling, right? haha
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I never said it will happen
I’m saying it would work well for Brock and should be allowed to happen.
Brock going hunting is the best training for him
Just get Erik Paulson to put Brock in a cage against a hungry bear and let him defend those jabs and uppercuts by a hungry deadly animal. Maybe that will teach Brock that you can’t just roll on the floor as soon as he gets punched.
Brock did not get knocked out in his last two fights. So he has endurance. But he got beat to a bloody mess as he can’t defend himself.
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
something like this?
You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Okay. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around.
George Carlin
by edtSD on Oct 26, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I thought playing dead was the best way
to get a bear to leave you alone? Brock already does that against good strikers so I don’t think that’s a very good plan. Not a fan of Brock v. Mir 3 either as it will most likely go the same way #2 did. I say give him Burger King since Carwin is out now.
Should resign Tim Sylvia
And feed Brock to him. ;)
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Actually, yeah I’ve been thinking signing Tim Sylvia and feeding him to rising stars (Schaub) or former champions (Lesnar, Mir) would be a great idea.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I also want them to get Timmy back. He would serve great as a high-level gatekeeper, I don’t think he’d fight for the belt ever again, but he’d still be a hard fight for almost everyone. They could have booked Sylvia – Carwin, and leave options open for example Mir – Nelson or Nelson – Lesnar & Schaub – Mir.
by Horselover Fat on Oct 26, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Tim will be good enough to be considered a ‘gatekeeper’ ever again. He is on a 3-fight win streak, sure, but look at who that is against: nobody, nobody, and Paul Buentello, who is a badass but let’s face facts: he just doesn’t cut it anymore in even the top half of the UFC’s HW division, and even that is being generous. People can scream his name from the rooftops if they want if he wins against Rizzo, but he still would get picked to pieces by any of the guys being discussed in the article.
Sylvia would lose to all at the top, that is true, but I would still consider a motivated Sylvia a favorite against guys UFC employs like Struve, Gonzaga, Cro Cop, Kongo, and Madsen at this point. As much as it pains me to say since Nogueira is my favorite fighter ever, I would still give Sylvia a good chance of winning an ugly decision against Nogueira.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
What makes you so sure he doesn’t have it any more? His wins might not be too impressive, but he hasn’t looked bad in them either. Also he hasn’t lost, well except for the Fedor fight a few years back, and Nog before that. Mercer debacle is, well, embarrassing but I think it was just a fluke. He’s in better shape now and at least he’s winning, even if it’s not against top opponents.
I think he would surely lose to the top 4 (Cain, JDS, Carwin, Lesnar), but the rest of the guys could be very close. I’d probably favor him against Schaub and Nelson anyway, Mir wouldn’t be such a sure thing either.
by Horselover Fat on Oct 26, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
If they are looking to feed people, bring back Arlovski
He is exciting and KOs look better on highlight reels than decisions.
I like Arlovski too, but at least Sylvia is on a 3 fight win streak and is probably going to destroy Pedro Rizzo next to get a 4 fight win streak. Arlovski is on a real high profile 3 loss streak. Also, Sylvia’s headkick KO on Telligman is probably a better KO than anything Arlovski’s ever done.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
But those Arlovski losses are to top flight competition. The kind of competition that, to put it frankly, Sylvia will never again be good enough to fight. Period. Yeah, he lost 3 in a row, but to some of the best fighters out there. The UFC woud be better off getting AA back, geting a win or 2 under his belt to get his confidence in check, then depending on how good he looks, feed him to a young gun, or put him against an established star coming off a loss.
I’m not saying it’s right, but it is the way UFC operates. They usually don’t get a guy who is on a losing streak, even if it’s a losing streak to high profile competition. I mean, who’s the last star they got back like that? Unless they buy out a promotion that has Arlovski under contract, which isn’t going to happen, I just don’t see it happening. It doesn’t seem to be the way they operate, other then them getting Phil Baroni.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I was just thinking, it’s a shame that the Arlovski that was looking awesome against Rothwell and Nelson doesn’t seem to be there anymore. His KO’s were so awesome over both those guys and he seemed to be finally have his head straight right before the Fedor fight.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I would consider a good portion of the regulars here @ Bloody Elbow to be somewhat well-educated about MMA. And as such, I would hope we wouldn’t turn ‘what they (Joe Silva / Dana White / etc) should do’ into ‘what they probably will do even though it doesn’t make sense’, ya know, just in case the off chance Joe Silva stumbles upon this on a Sunday-Brunch-after-the-fight internet forum adventure…
Guess we’ll be seeing Tim soon :(
You're absolutely right
Even if Arlovski’s chances of winning are only 10%, it’s too much risk for a guy with so many recent losses outside the UFC. They rarely pick up a guy with recent losses outside the UFC, and if they do, he doesn’t face a top guy.
It’s not how the UFC operates, and it makes perfect sense.
Very interesting that you mention Tim Sylvia
“I don’t think he’s going to have a future in MMA. I think Frank Mir is going to beat him,” Sylvia told me on FoxSportsRadio1460 before UFC 81. “He’s a baby. Don’t kick him, he doesn’t want to get hurt. He’s a helluva wrestler and he’s strong. But he can’t punch and doesn’t know how to kick. He can only go straight forward. He can’t survive as just a takedown guy.”
Clearly Sylvia sold him short, but those look like great words to quote in a comeback fight. No way does Sylvia win, and you know he’s going to look like an ass in the build up. He’s also one of the few guys that would be the heel in a match with Brock.
Isn’t Sylvia doing pro wrestling, though?
It was only a one time shot in Antonio Inoki’s promotion, he has a MMA fight with Pedro Rizzo lined up in the near future.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think burning Lesnar vs. Mir III would be smart right now
The analogy isn’t perfect by any means, but it’d be akin to having the Red Sox face the Yankees in a series right now. Yeah, those are the “money” draws, but you want to have them fight when there is clearly something on the line (#1 contender?)—-this would just be a regular season game. If that doesn’t happen because one of them loses, so be it this is sports, but I feel like the 3rd fight would be really forced right now.
I’d have Lesnar vs. Big Nog. That’d be Nog’s last gasp at actual contention and what I see as prob the easiest practical bounce back fight for Lesnar, though definitely still competitive.
Not afraid to nitpick
Lesnar vs Mir III SUCKS!!!
I do not want to see this again.
I loved that story of Frank Mir casually hanging out with Georges. St Pierre and Freddie Roach watching UFC 116, and all coming up with the holes in the Lesnar’s game that Mir could exploit.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Oct 26, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It probably went like this
“Hit him in the face”
“Wit ze groin!”
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
by menckenstein on Oct 26, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t see why. Brock pounded Mir in the first fight but got caught in an ankle lock because he was a rookie. 2nd fight Brock skull F-ed him to death. I would just prefer to see Brock against someone else.
To soon for that I think. While he did win the first first it has potential for Lesnar to go 3 straight fights with him getting beat down in the first round.
Let's face it
Lesnar needs protection at this point. The risks are too high for Dana to let him lose twice or three times in a row. He should get a cup cake next. Carwin is ready for another title shot if he beats Nelson via 1st rnd knockout
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I can agree with that
A solid win over Nelson should propel him right back into contention.
and who is this cupcake you’re referring to? he’s the former champ coming off a loss to the #1 contender. putting him up against any fighter outside of the top 5 makes absolutely no sense
Mir
then Nog. Guys he has wrestling over. Not cup cakes as easy but cup cakes meaning no devastating stand up
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
What do you have against Nog? Brock will put him in a nursing home! Let Nog finish his career against Cro Cop
Dude. If No loses, big deal
If he wins, he’s back. He has jiujitsu so he won’t be like super easy for Brock. He has a name and if he is to retire, let him lose to Lensar and give him another name on his resume. Him and Mir can hurt Brock but are not fast enough to bombard him with punches like Cain did. Two quality wins and Brock can fight for the title again.
You see. Brock is not every fighter. He is hated and makes people talk and want to buy. Giving him to a striker of any sorts is dangerous. I mean can you imagine where Brock’s confidence is with his stand up now?
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
It wasn't just a loss. It was an epic beatdown.
When was the last time a UFC champ almost lost one fight and got destroyed in another? Machida and Penn were hardly beat down, so Liddell and maybe Big Nog are probably the best fit. Those aren’t encouraging analogies.
It makes perfect sense for the UFC to protect Brock. That’s the best way to extend his longevity in the UFC. He will pretty much be an equal draw no matter who he fights now. If he loses against a lower level guy, then the UFC really loses nothing, because there’s no way he would have survived against the top guys with a tougher matchup anyway.
Protecting a guy on top, like M1 is accused to have done, is nonsensical, because a single loss against an easy opponent is very damaging and if you keep giving him easy fights it will happen. There’s only two types of fighters that you want to protect: an up and comer that has potential to be a title contender, and a major draw with serious holes in his game. They don’t want Brock to turn into the next Liddell.
Lesnar vs Carwin II will happen down the road....
but it will be a title eliminator. They will each have to fight once or twice and win beforehand, and then they will fight each other to get another shot at the title, be it against Cain or JDS.
disagree
Carwin and Lesnar can be both huge fights for Cain. While eliminate one?
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s the same logic the UFC applied by not having Carwin, Cain, or JDS eliminate each other to get to Lesnar.
yes why not.
I mean if Carwin and Lesnar eliminate each other, who’s gonna fight the champ next when the dust settles? I mean if they bring Todd Duffee back and maybe let him correct that Russow mistake. I mean Shaub vs. Todd Duffee would have been a great fight to see who’s the next challenger down the line. No?
by SheepleBuster on Oct 26, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Mainly because its not only a huge money fight,
but because I think the fan base also really wants to see it. The chances are slim that they will meet again in a title fight, but Silva can definitely maneuver them into a title eliminator.
I have to agree with SheepleBuster
Every Brock fight is a big money fight, at least until the next time he gets destroyed and he’ll probably still have a decent fanbase after that. Don’t give him one of the top 4 UFC HWs ahead of another title fight with Cain/JDS. The risk is too great.
Using that tact obviously worked out for them
I don’t see why they wouldn’t continue to apply it as the HW division probably still isn’t where it could be.
Pro Wrestling Fans Stink
waaa. waaaa. Pro Wrestling Fan: ‘’chael sonnen learned all his trash talking from the masked marauder and the sheik of death.’’ waaa. waaa. Pro wrestling fan: ‘’if it wasn’t for pro wrestling, the UFC wouldn’t be here today.’’ waaa. waaa.
If you don’t grow out of watching that garbage on tv by the time you are 13, there is a 100% chance that you have never been laid. not that anyone on these comments have applauding pro wrestling – i haven’t even read the comments. i just noticed that Meltzer was “reporting” on the ‘groundbreaking’ undertaker vs. brock news. pro wrestling is a circus.
Lesnar deserves a break. He’s 5-2 and has fought a murderer’s row. I would match him with someone on the outskirts of the Top 10, someone coming off a loss. If he wins, then you re-match him with Mir for #1 contender, which would be epic.
The best choice is Lesnar-Nelson. My 2nd pick would be Lesnar-Kongo.
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