UFC 121 Analysis: Brock Lesnar and the Limits of Wrestling for MMA
by Nate Wilcox on Oct 25, 2010 2:09 PM EDT
in MMA History
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In recent months, it's become more and more accepted that amateur wrestling is the strongest base style for an MMA fighter. Our own Jonathan Snowden penned a great three part series breaking down the base styles of UFC fighters, base styles in Japans' famous Pride promotion, and base styles in Japan's current top promotion Dream. He found a strong case that wrestlers dominate today's MMA and have done so for at least the past half-decade.
But Brock Lesnar's devastating loss to Cain Velasquez -- also a top-notch wrestler -- shows that excellent wrestling skills alone are not enough. When Lesnar found himself unable to take down Cain and keep him on his back, he panicked and was quickly demolished in the stand up game.
We've seen this happen before in MMA history with even more accomplished wrestlers than Lesnar.
Here's Dave Meltzer talking about the best amateur wrestler to ever enter the game:
Arguably the best wrestler to ever enter MMA at his peak was Karam Gaber Ibrahim of Egypt, who not only won the gold medal at the 2004 Olympics in Greco-Roman at 211 pounds, but destroyed everyone in his path, tossing around world champions like they were high schoolers. He was universally considered the best wrestler of any style or weight class in Athens.
A few months later, Ibrahim debuted in MMA against Kazuyuki Fujita on a New Year's Eve show in Japan. Fujita was a well known pro wrestler who switched to MMA. Ibrahim had only a few weeks of training for MMA. Instead of trying to wrestle Fujita, he decided to come out and box, which he had no experience in. It was a bad idea, as he was knocked cold in 1:07 and never fought again.
There's also the case of Kevin Jackson, the freestyle wrestling gold medalist at the 1992 Olympic Games. Jackson entered MMA in 1997 at 32 years of age -- still in his athletic peak -- and immediately made a big splash by going 3-0, winning a UFC tournament and mauling the highly regarded (at the time) John Lober.
Unfortunately for Jackson, he couldn't deal with submissions and back-to-back losses to Lion's Den fighters Frank Shamrock and Jerry Bohlander via arm bar were the end of his run at the top of the young sport.
While it seems clear that a strong foundation in amateur wrestling is a great starting point for MMA success, without the ability to handle striking and submissions a purely positional grappler is at a big disadvantage.
Brock Lesnar's loss to Cain Velasquez at UFC 121 is an excellent reminder of that.
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I don't think it has ever been suggested that a fighter can survive on wrestling alone.
Adapting their wrestling for MMA and developing a more diverse skill set are essential for long term success.
well Mark Coleman
built a whole career on wrestling….ok ok, he added ground and pound but that was it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Wrestling can be a vital part of a fighters game, but in this day and age there needs to be more.
If you plan to wrestle your way to victory, you need submission defense and an understanding of how to deliver punishment from different positions. Brock doesn’t seem to have that all the way figured out yet.
For such a powerful wrestler, have we seen him posture up and deliver damage from the guard? Against Mir he pretty much did the big brother hold you down GnP. There are definitely better ways for him to adapt his wrestling to MMA.
Is GnP against Mir
Was superb, regardless of his other shortcomings.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Oct 25, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
WHAT?
coleman had mad striking skills!
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
by Orcus on Oct 25, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I thought this was funny when I first saw it.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
per Phil Baroni
it’s a nice gym, it’s basically Mark Coleman’s garage with a punching bag in the middle :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I disagree
Many suggested Brock would not be able to take Cain down. He did. But he was very aggressive on the ground and lost the position. Brock was reckless and had a god awful plan. He gassed too! In like 90 seconds. So there.
He lost the position cuz cain had drilled pushing brock off him in just that manner.
In short, brocks ability to wrestle is very limited.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I disagree
The first time Cain got up I think was mostly a result of Brock being his usual overaggressive self and gave Cain to much space.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
eh
I’ve watched the fight several times and brock was right on top of him, but cain immediately had his hands around his shoulders and pushed up.
Brock has never been a technical wrestler. He is a brute force wrestler, and if that brute force doesn’t take he is completely screwed.
I tried to tell people this before the fight but all I heard was…..“oh no! Lesnar is the best Wrestler in the world! and too big!”
All you had to do was look at his past fights to see this isn’t true, or even his weak division in the NCAA.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Just because Cain escaped twice does not mean
Brock could not have gotten him later. It’s just that Brock gassed in 90 seconds and can’t take punches and starts dancing. Are you telling me that Brock would not have taken Cain down again and again had he an ounce of stand up to avoid getting hit like a punching bag and then roll over like he did?
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Anxiety
I think Brock was unprepared for the fight he would get from CV and that led him to a lot of reckless takedown attempts and wild punches that led to CV countering repeatedly.
Brock said himself that he believed his athleticism and size would be the advantage in the fight and he immediately went at CV with out understanding that CV is 1.) a great wrestler 2.) a dangerous striker and counter puncher and 3.) he is very technical and deliberate in all of his fights.
This was a case of overconfidence leading to a fighter’s downfall.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Or
Just throwing a hail mary so he can hurry up and go hunting.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I don't think he was unprepared
But I think that he discounted the fact that Cain is an incredible scrambler, which is why Cain was so good as a collegiate wrestler. That coupled with being much faster than the guys Brock had wrestled in college or trains with now.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
by menckenstein on Oct 25, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Before the fight, I didn’t think Brock was over confident. 30 seconds into the fight, I knew I was wrong. I think Brock was convinced he was be able to take Cain down and hold him down.
well. Cain looked small and Brock thought
he’d just run him over
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Pre-fight quotes...
Cain Velasquez: “I’m preparing for a 5 round fight.”
Brock Lesnar: “Cain Velasquez is no different than anybody else I have fought. You can bring in all the guys you want, but there is only one Brock Lesnar.”
Again…
… Arrogance.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand that.
But, the difference in “what” was said still is very relevant.
Brock could have easily said that he was going to out strike/wrestle CV, but that entire UFC 121 preview, Lesnar spoke about his athleticism and size. They even highlighted “how much he ate as a boy working on his neighbors farm”.
CV’s “hype” reel was about his hard work and preparation for Lesnar and his size. There wasn’t a sense of arrogance and overconfidence as it was more about taking advantage of this seemingly insurmountable opportunity.
If Lesnar had an “ounce” of the humility he displayed at the end of the match, he would have known that CV was a top-notch opponent and would have made more of an effort to learn his strengths instead of just his apparent lack of size in comparison to himself.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
here is what I think. I think his boxing coach changed his style of boxing
like Brock said before Shane Carwin fight. Since then, Brock can’t fight. haha
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
He also said
“little guys never give me problems”
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
This ^
Overconfidence.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock needs more than "an ounce of standup"
Yeah, he could have taken down Cain again, but he’d still lose because he’d fail twice as often as he’d succeed and get clobbered between, just like the Carwin fight. As long as Cain didn’t tire, Brock would not be able to hold him down for long.
Gassing had nothing to do with it. Brock has ZERO standup defense. We saw clear hints of it against Mir, we saw it against Carwin in a huge way, and now we saw it again. The guy is a 270+ lb punching bag on the feet.
If his head movement, hand placement, and reflexes are this bad after three years of MMA, he’s not going to get good enough to win the title again in the next two years, and I doubt he’ll stick around much longer than that. How can you be so deficient in the most basic fundamentals in the UFC? He had a huge wake up call at UFC 116, and if he still can’t learn the basics, he’s hopeless.
Lol at you still trying to talk wrestling, when you neither have evidence nor background knowledge of the sport. Lesnar was a tremendous college wrestler, and his contemporaries at HW during his time at Minnesota were extremely tough competition. Lesnar has taken down everyone he’s ever fought. Pretty good wrestling for a diy you’re trying to claim isn’t a great wrestler.
by Hardcharger on Oct 25, 2010 2:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't know who coached Brock
This was a bad plan. I don’t know. Maybe Brock thought there was no way a smaller man could beat him. Then Cain kneed him and Brock started dancing
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock said..
In interviews before the fight that he never had problems with smaller guys.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
The first time Brock took him down
Brock could have been more conservative. I am not saying he could have won or kept Cain down. He just went aggressively after Cain, and Cain escaped. People were saying Cain can’t be taken down at all. But he was.
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't think anybody has said cain can't be taken down.
He’s been taken down before. It’s just that he always moves moves moves and gets back up.
He’s a technical wrestler, something Brock can’t be because of his size. Brock has no hips.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
he has no hips
I can agree with that. haha
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Josh Thompson
he said clearly that Brock would not be able to take Cain down because Lashley can’t
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
who is that?
and why do people listen to him?
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
The guy fighting Melendez next?
haha. Mike Swick said that also
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock has great hips
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
His wrestling is limited?
What happened to all the 3-time D-1 wrestling champion talk?
I’m not buying his wrestling is limited argument.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
You know how
Some years the celtics suck?
When Brock was dominate his division wasn’t full of killer heavy weights.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Ha ha!
I’m just finding it hard to digest that his wrestling is limited after all the Zuffa marketing and all the Brock’s wrestling posts since his Heath Herring fight. I kind of agree with you because Lesnar’s wrestling for MMA doesn’t look anything like Kamal Shalorus but . . . I can recall Lesnar’s stating “Cain, you were not a D-1 champion.”
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Just stop posting. Stephen Neal was better than any HW of Cain’s era. Wes Hand was a badass himself. It’s embarrassing when someone who’s never followed college wrestling starts making shit up.
by Hardcharger on Oct 25, 2010 2:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
i don't think he gassed.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I should add Cain to my article
He is clearly using wrestling to ruin the sport.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
this needs more rec’s.
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Oct 25, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Cain outwreslted Brock
The entire card was proof that wrestling wins fights. Sanchez, Hammil, etc. All out wrestled. Takedown defense is wrestling too, guys.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
he outwrestled Brock?
um. No. He outpunched Brock. haha
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You could say he out-wrestled him. Brock couldn’t keep Cain down and when Cain took Brock down he kept him down longer.
"Girls are mean." Lisa Ward
well. I don't know
Brock was pretty gassed by the time Cain took him down.
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock was pretty gassed rocked by the time Cain took him down.
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Oct 25, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It was both I think
Brock suddenly had an adrenaline dump it seems or got Carwin’s disease. He just threw that flying knee and started dancing with the first shot he took
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He definitely gassed
And gassed early. Huge adrenaline dump, in my opinion.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Oct 25, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I was only able to see the fight once, but it was pretty clear to me at the time that Brock could absolutely not control Cain with his wrestling because Cain himself was just too good a wrestler. That wrestling ability opened up the big shots for Cain.
I also think the years have not been kind to Brock’s mind. I have a hard time believing that Brock would have gone down like he did if he started training in MMA right after he graduated and bypassed the WWE/NFL stuff.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Brock started losing when Cain was on top.
But he wasn’t trying to wrestle, he was throwing bombs.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
In the sport of mma, every one sport will have its limit. It’s unfair to only point out wrestling, when other aspects of this sport, including jiu jitsu, boxing, kickboxing and muy thai, alone are not enough to win. This is something fans and the fighters all learned back since UFC 1.
"Girls are mean." Lisa Ward
Pat Barry lied, Lesnar (almost) died
Put that on your bumper and smoke it!
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Cain used a combination of strikes, TDD, and wrestling.
he also used his athleticism, quickness, and composure. What I was most impressed about is how he handled Brock bullrushing him. And when Brock was crumbling he was still patient, picked his shots, threw elbows, he used a complete arsenal to nullify Brock. True one wrestling is a good base, but can’t survive on its own, much like any other discipline.
Composure...
I didn’t think he would be able to overcome the size advantage that Lesnar has, but he proved me wrong. His wrestling, striking and cardio were impressive, but they weren’t even the most impressive thing about his victory. Cain is one cool cucumber. That’s what impressed me the most in that fight.
That's what makes Brock such an exception
No one has been able to walk right into the upper echelons of the sport with no amateur experience and be as successful as quickly as he has. I mean, can you imagine a Brock/Fujita fight?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 25, 2010 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
Agree...
Brock is very good at wresting overall (driven by power and size) but is weak in striking (overall, which includes evasion and appropriate reaction to strikes) and didn’t have much in the subs/BJJ department. That’s unusual when you look across most of the other successful guys who are usually good in at least 2 things, their “Base” and “Secondary” disciplines, and learn at least some defensive/evasive capabilities in other areas.
sorry
Heath Herring, a 50 year old Randy Couture, and Frank Mir ain’t the upper echelons of anything. He winged it with size alone and one of the weakest HW divisions anybody ever seen.
It’s just the best that the UFC had at that time, and the sooner you realize that the better off you’ll be.
As soon as Brock started facing new and developed heavy weights he looked bad, and the second time out he lost.
Anybody could have predicted this fight by looking at Brocks past fights.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by VelociAldo on Oct 25, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well
I guess they bought the hype.
It sucks too because a lot of people point out this fact and got bitched at for fighter bashing.
It’s just good analysis.
People saying Brock beat the best were fooling themselves and everybody else.
If you buy into Randy being a legendary fighter you should look at things a second time. Or if you think heath Herring was anything but an easy way to help legitimize Lesnar, you’re fooling yourself again. Herring had been through years before Brock stepped in the cage.
Mir was a good win, and I’ll give him that, but he also lost to Mir. Mir has no wrestling too.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by VelociAldo on Oct 25, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I recall the bitching for a number of things.
- Jake O’Brien controlled Heath Herring in his UFC debute en route to a victory. Lesnar did the same thing but also broke Herring’s orbital bone.
- Randy Couture? Ok yeah, he got beat by Brandon Vera but got the gift decision for Octagon control – I guess. Noguiera beat him in every MMA discipline possible.
- Mir? They’re 1 and 1. Mir has many losses when he was controlled on the ground.
Carwin would do the same thing to Lenar he did in their first fight hopefully without the lactic acid issues.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Randy Coutures name...
…Is more impressive than who he’s beat or what he’s done.
I don’t mind the guy and he does have some amazing skills, but he’s not all that in my humble opinion.
He’s certainly not the measuring stick for today’s heavy weights.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I couldn’t have said it better.
But Captain America is still better than most fighters over 36 years old.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ab-so-lutely!
It’s his preparation that is MORE impressive than anything.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
His control is amazing. Nobody can control you like Couture and he did a great job against Brock.
But he’s just getting slow and can’t finish guys.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
He's just getting to realize that he's 46.
I would have loved to see a 20 something Randy Couture fighting.
Mir has no wrestling too...
You’re acting like Brock is a bum. He’s not. He is a big bad dude. I am still convinced that Brock will beat anyone who doesn’t have fantastic wrestling base 9 times out of 10.
I don’t think he’s a bum. Never said that. I just never thought he was much of an MMA fighter.
He’s a decent wrestler with amazing size and speed. But that’s about it. People went gaga over his NCAA record but they don’t really look at how good of a division that was either.
Lots of big guys have come in to MMA and been exposed because they didn’t think they needed to round out there game.
All we ever saw of Lesnar’s camp was him power lifting cars. He should have been training boxing, and jits 24/7 and lost those stupid workouts.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
He trains BJJ all the time
You’re not the same guy who was complaining that he didn’t have a high level BJJ coach are you?
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not training enough.
He can bring in big name guys to shut people up, but it’s obvious he’s not growing. Dana White was bummed out because he saw this after the fight and he basically said as much on MMA live.
Brock has hit his ceiling.
I also don’t buy into his work ethic. He seems more interested in hunting than learning how to fight.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Based on what?
He looks like he is working his ass off. His striking, while bad, as better than it was during the Carwin fight. His BJJ didn’t even get a chance to be shown Saturday night, but is by all accounts good. Everyone actually around Brock talk about how much and how quickly he is picking up BJJ.
You don’t buy it because you don’t like him? That’s what it seems to amount to.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
His striking, while bad, as better than it was during the Carwin fight.
If by not cowering in the fetal position is the gauge for progression, then yes… he’s made huuuge gains in that department. But c’mon now.
His BJJ didn’t even get a chance to be shown Saturday night, but is by all accounts good.
Don’t know why anybody’s worried then.. if his trainers say he’s ready for Abu Dhabi, he must be.
He stood in the pocket during exchanges and didn’t wilt and run.
Nobody said he was ready for ADCC, ffs.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
How
By all accounts we have it IS good.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Respectfully disagree.
While he has mismanaged his time in training on things of pertinence, I don’t think he’s reached his ceiling just yet. He has shown improvement in his last three fights and new techniques in each.
What he HASN’T shown is gameplanning and strategy going into fights. He goes into every fight believing that he is the aggressor and that the opponent will bend to his will.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Mir II was his most impressive fight. The problem is, not everybody sucks like Mir. And Mir has gotten a bit better since then. Mir made a lot of stupid mistakes too, which he always does with big guys.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Mir doesn't suck
Don’t detract from your the credibility of your arguments by making extreme and baseless statements during their expression.
Debating 101.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Oct 25, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly think he has been training a whole lot of boxing and jitz. I just don’t think he has had the time to really develop it as far as other fighters.
Also, his last two opponents have been high level wrestlers, so ignoring wrestling to train other aspects of his game would probably have been a bad idea.
Look at it this way.
Fedor stopped lifting weights a long time ago. Fedor realized in MMA you have to know your technique, and that’s all he ever trained. That’s why he has a gut.
He finally lost because he didn’t keep up with his ground game and he’s 10 times more well rounded that Lesnar.
Brock just has a broken camp. He’s too isolated to keep winning at his level.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
If Brock is serious he needs to bring in some mammoth K-1 guys and spar, spar, spar… he may even have to leave the farm…. Oh no!!
you’d think with so many big strikers gunning for him… he would have months ago.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
He’s “never had a problem with smaller guys.”
Unfortunately for Brock, he has been exposed. He absolutely wilts when his takedowns aren’t successful and he has absolutely no composure when he’s uncomfortable.
Its more than a lack of skill, its a lack of proper mentality when fighting.
He does seem to have Mir's disease.
That isn’t to say he can’t be one of the best HW’s in the world.
So you think Brock beats JDS?
I hope we see this fight eventually. It will put the final nail in the myth of Lesnar as a contender.
Or
Brock is 1-1 against undefeated murderers since almost dying.
It’s all in how you look at it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 25, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Cole Konrad
Got a belt in a year.
Organizations give them out like cracker jacks to heavy weights just to put butts in seats.
The UFC is a bigger show, and Better Talent, but not that much better at that time in that division.
and the carwin win is more like 1/2. haha.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Are you really comparing the UFC HW title with Bellator's?
Give me a break. It’s one thing to be critical it’s another thing to give a fighter zero credit for their accomplishments.
Brock lost and lost convincingly, it doesn’t invalidate the things that came before and it doesn’t invalidate his championship run.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
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by Worldisart on Oct 25, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I said the UFC is bigger and better. You just have to accept that heavy weight divisions are always weak. It’s always going to be a shallow pool.
The UFC’s is good now. There are 3 good guys (Cain, JDS, and Carwin) And then some decent guys like Roy, Brock, and Mir. And then some guys who are over the hill, like Cro Cop and Nog. and a bunch of prospects.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
This deserves so many recs
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Oct 25, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You can retcon anyones past wins like that
it just makes for foolish looking arguments. Heath, Randy, Frank and Carwin were all quality wins. There was and still is no reason to not think he is competitive at the highest level of HW MMA.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
hey
IM not rectoning anything.
I’ve been saying it since Brock fought Herring.
It only seems like Retconing cuz so many people bought the hype.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Alright
It’s easy to say that you’ve been harping about it since time immemorial, but you were just as wrong then as you are now. He lost to Cain, which is something I thought would happen too, but it doesn’t make Brock any less than on of the best HW fighters in the world.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Best HW fighters
I personally think most of the rankings got the HW division wrong. Werdum is higher than JDS. I wonder what will happen to Lesnar’s number after this fight.
At one point the only difference between Lesnar and JDS, Carwin and Velasquez was the opportunity to compete for the title. Sorry beating Couture for the title ain’t that special in my humble opinion.
Carwin exposed Lesnar. People can talk about his heart after his Carwin fight but I saw a 265lbs. man CRINGE, COWER and RUN. Then he did it again on October 23, 2010. VelociAldo is not the only person saying it but I do still give Lesnar props for what he accomplished thus far.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 25, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The hw division is broken and scattered.
Half the good guys are in Strikeforce, and half are in the UFC. And a few are scattered around other promotions.
It’s had to say who is the best because they will never fight each other.
People just don’t want to admit that the UFC doesn’t have all the best fighters and they never will. It forces these false arguments of who is the best when we’ll never know.
But if you know fighters and you know their styles you can tell who would beat who.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I'll say this
even after Saturday I’d take Brock to beat Werdum or Fedor.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably
but I’m not as sure about that one.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
People glossed over JDS’s take down defense with Roy Nelson, who is a big strong grappler with a great pedigree.
JDS stuffed everything.
No way I’d give it to Brock. The cat is out of the bag on how to beat Brock and Brock isn’t going to get better.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
It's just delusional....
Brock isn’t going to get better.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you watch his last two fights?
After THREE YEARS in MMA, he:
1. Can’t move his head or use his hands to block a punch
2. Can’t pull guard when in trouble
Those are very, very basic things. I’m not asking for him to strike like Anderson Silva. He either doesn’t have the learning ability of other fighters or has a god awful team.
Yeah, Mittrione was pulling guard and trying to throw submissions in his first big fight and he’d had less time than Lesnar.
He looked like crap doing it, but at least he was trying.
Brock just has this attitude that his size and top position is all he needs and if that don’t do it, oh well.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
WTF…. Yeah Mittrione is a GREAT example because he is fighting some real killers…
Mittrione would look worse against Cain or Carwin then Brock did.
Don't be so sure
Mitrione would get owned by those guys for sure, and I’d give him a lower chance of success because Brock always has a chance with that bullrush.
However, he’d look much better once he got in trouble, and the loss wouldn’t be such a sudden beatdown..
You’re missing the point, though. Meathead learned far more about MMA in a year than Brock did in three.
Ehhh..
He was sick and recovering for a full year. There are plenty of examples of fighters who have learned less in 2 years.
You’re right.
Nelson is more technical. hahaha.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I guaran-fuckin-tee that JDS does not have the TDD or cardio that Cain has.
And remember, Brock took Cain down.
So the questions become, does JDS have the ability to scramble that Cain does? Will he gas out after a few scrambles and become a horizontal punching bag for Brock to lay on top of?
We do not know the answer to those questions, but my guess would be that he might get up a couple of times, but that the effort of doing so will tire him out like crazy.
I hope we still see this fight
I really wanted it to be JDS that clobbers Brock, but now we get a real MMA fight in the UFC HW division that is exciting because of skill as opposed to hype, so I’m happy.
If Brock fights JDS, though, that will hopefully shatter all illusions of how good Brock is. He did not get Serra’d. He got picked apart and owned twice in the most non-flukey way possible.
I hate statements like this
because they have no substance. You didn’t say anything. It basically boils down to “BROCK BAD, JDS GOOD!” Come on man, wtf. If you are going to make a statement, at least back that shit up. How would JDS beat Brock?
I think Brock would be able to take JDS down at will. I think JDS might be able to scramble out, but that doing so will tire him out. After a few scrambles I don’t think he will have enough gas left to scramble out. I would have Brock beating JDS in the 3rd round via TKO.
It doesn't matter
Nelson is no Brock, but JDS has good enough takedown defense and scrambles on the ground to keep it standing for at least 30% of the fight.
That’s 5x as much time as he’ll need to fuck Brock up on the feet.
Werdum maybe.
But I still think Werdum could catch Brock. Werdum set a trap for Fedor and beat him with it, but he’s still not a better fighter than Fedor all around.
Fedor would demolish him in so many ways.
Big guys have never been able to hold Fedor down and he moves out of positions just like cain does. I don’t think Brocks wrestling > Fedors sambo by any stretch of the imagination.
And fedor would send his head flying out into the stands.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I'd take Brock to beat Werdum for sure
He is an old school one-dimensional guy who really has little to offer the top guys in either org on a consistent basis. Fedor was hugely favored going in and will be in a rematch as well if it ever happens.
I don’t see Brock taking fedor now, not with the way he panics after being hit.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 25, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Beating Randy has always meant something, man. Beating Herring, Randy, Carwin and Mir is a VERY impressive resume for anyone.
While I don’t think anyone was impressed with Brocks reaction to getting hit by Carwin, his reaction was better than anyone else we’ve seen get hit by Carwin.
Speaking of Werdum, this situation has reinvigorated my frustration at ZUFFA for letting him go.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Idk man. He just doesn’t look good to me.
I think about Kimbo Slice and Bobby Lashley when I see Brock floundering around in the octagon.
I’m not even trolling either.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I don't think you're trolling
I just can’t grasp where your opinions on him come from. Maybe I never will. I mean, comparing him to Kimbo and Lashley? It’s crazy!
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 25, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Not trolling
Just hating right?
Because there is nothing comparable about the careers of Kimbo Slice/Bobby Lashley and that of Brock Lesnar. He lost to the guy that is going to have the number 1 ranking when the next rankings come out. He didn’t lose to Seth Petruzelli and Chad Griggs. Your characterization of this loss and Brock’s career is twisted to say the least.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Well he has things in common with Kimbo and Lashley.
He’s not getting better and he looks terrible.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
This is just flat wrong
We get it, you’ve been all over here the past few days expressing your dislike of Brock, but when you start comparing him to Lashley and Kimbo your motives become really transparent. Try to maintain some objectivity.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
VelociAldo hasn’t been expressing any “dislike of Brock” he’s actually been doing analysis that turned out to be right. Please look at hundreds of mindless comments that equated Brock’s size and college wrestling with an automatic win.
I actually started to like Brock, to be honest.
I was even pulling for him for a moment or two, even though I didn’t want him to win.
When his metallica intro came on, I got pumped.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Uh, no. He’s been throwing out strawmen as well as blatantly making things up to try and discredit everything Lesnar has done. The comments about his NCAA career is the most blatantly fabricated. The fact that you either don’t realize or won’t acknowledge that says quite a bit about your knowledge on the subject, or lack thereof.
by Hardcharger on Oct 25, 2010 3:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey, don’t take my word for it, look it up.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
You made the claims without knowing any of the wrestler of either era, so you look it up. It’s scrubs like you who are the most annoying. Making shit up, then telling others to do their research for them. Get a clue, learn a bit about the sport, then you can talk. As of now, you’ve for nothing but BS.
by Hardcharger on Oct 25, 2010 3:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
From Snowden's article
it’s not the style that determines who wins the fight. It’s the fighter. "Styles make fights"; true, but they don’t win fights. Put two highly decorated wrestlers against each other and the majority of the time you will see them stand and fight because both of their primary strengths have been equally matched. In this day and age of MMA, it is almost impossible to compete with top level fighters (wrestling based or not) if you have no wrestling ability. With that said, what if a wrestler can’t get his or her opponent to the ground? Thats where the concept of MMA arises and you get to witness what other skills that fighter truely posseses.
My point is that fighters who have a strong wrestling base but are lacking in striking, bjj, ect. will only go so far until they are matched with an opponent whos wrestling ability is up to par, but whos other discipline’s are much more superior than theirs.
In ten years from now, when we look at who the champions are, we won’t be saying "So and so, the amazing wrestler, or the amazing striker or jiu jitsu wizard. We will say "So and so, the amazing Mixed Martial Artist."
Evolution is inevitable.
Cain is a prime example.
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
Cain will be considered a bum when he loses to JDS
That’s MMA community for you. I feel no one will be able to defend the title 2 or 3 times in the next couple of years :)
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think anyone is saying that he is unbeatable...
… But, there were PLENTY saying that Brock was.
That’s why this is a “feather” in the cap of CV’s fighting career. Even if he never wins another MMA fight in his life, he will always be the guy who beat Brock Lesnar.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The same will be said about the guy who beats the "unbeatable" Jon Jones.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
if thats the case, then what will the “MMA community” consider JDS if Cain beats him?
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Oct 25, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
the god almighty before he is found to be a bum when he loses
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Reguardless if Cain wins or JDS wins, neither of these guys are bums. Like it or not fighters like them will be the future of the HW division.
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Oct 25, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I am just saying how MMA community reacts to wins and losses
Brock loses one fight, he is Kimbo. Shane loses one fight, he is not top 30. Couture loses to Lesnar, he is old washed up never has been. MMA community likes overrating.
by SheepleBuster on Oct 25, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You'll always have those.
That’s needed to sell the fights in the numbers that UFC does.
True MMA fans know that a fighter should be vetted more thoroughly before assumptions of how long a fighters reign will be.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 25, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not one fight
It’s the way he got manhandled by Carwin and was bailed out by lactic acidosis or whatever, and then got completely destroyed by Cain. Brock is simply uncompetitive at the highest level. He can only beat people that can’t handle his size. That’s it.
The biggest problem is that he has shown no improvement in any aspect of his game. If he can’t learn the fundamentals by now, then he has serious limitations in his ability.
BTW, who on earth says that Carwin is not top 30?
Couture IS old and is NOT a heavyweight. For you to deny that he brings an athletic deficit to almost every fight would be silly. Gonzaga and Sylvia had holes in their game that Couture could exploit with his strengths. Lesnar didn’t.
I don’t know what that guy was smoking in comparing Brock to Kimbo, but he has a lot of proving to do before he gets into my top 5.
Just like Fitch is a bum after losing to GSP?
There’s plenty of room for two great fighters. As long as we don’t see gaping holes in their game like we do with Mir and Lesnar, they will both be respected.
* My opinion from Snowden's article
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Oct 25, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
if you are one dimensional, eventually get blasted
regardless of what style
by pud333 on Oct 25, 2010 2:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Wrestling is NOT the 'winning style'
I’d like to see what style dominates when the time limit is removed. Wrestlers wrestling until they can wrestle no more… then get choked or armbarred… or maybe even knocked out. Wrestlers don’t finish because wrestling is not about finishing… it’s about control. If someone could fly he would by doing so get an advantageous position over his opponent and be able to simply hover out of reach until the time is up to win the match. Did he fight? No. Is this a rather ridiculous but stranglely relevant comparison to wrestling? Yes!
Wrestlers can go the furthest without additional skills
Of all the root arts in MMA, wrestling seems to be the one that lets one-dimensional guys go the furthest. A guy like Jon Fitch, who has no submission game to speak of and can’t strike his way out of a paper bag, is considered by many to be a P4P great. Gray Maynard is probably the next UFC LW champ, and he is pretty one-dimensional too.
To the extent that some MMA fans have a problem with wrestlers, it may stem from the fact that it is comparatively easy for a wrestler to do well in MMA without ever developing the multifaceted skill set that makes for interesting fights. If you put a guy on his ass and keep him there consistently, you’ll win MMA bouts.
Guys like Cain and Bones Jones, who build a truly multidimensional game on their wrestling base are far, far more fun to watch, but pure wrestlers have actually done pretty well in the sport, and continue to do so.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
come on
Instead of everyone saying how brock is done and how he sucks, can’t someone stop for a second and think maybe cain is just that damn good? I’m a brock nut hugger too who said cain would get smashed. Give him some credit he looked awesome.
by ronrod on Oct 25, 2010 3:04 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I'd like to see brock back.
But fighting lower level guys to develop.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
here's our opportunity for good matchups
Give him kongo or big nog. Guys who wouldn’t be fighting brock if he were champ but be interesting style matchups. Pure striker and pure jits.
by ronrod on Oct 25, 2010 3:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
never happen
Brock makes more than any other UFC fighter and gets a big PPV cut. They’re not going to set him up against skells. If he doesn’t get money fights, he walks, and Dana’s not crazy enough to squander that resource.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 25, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Why can't it be both
Cain is great, and if he beats JDS then I say he’s got 50/50 odds against Fedor in his prime.
However, this was a shocking display of Brock’s weaknesses and confirmation of how overrated his strengths are. Takedowns can be stopped. Top control can be escaped often with ease. No improvement whatsoever in striking defense, which makes me question is ability to learn. Can’t defend himself on the ground — how can you not know how to pull guard?
Right now, Matt Mitrione looks like he has more MMA smarts than Lesnar. I certainly didn’t think that was possible after watching TUF 12.
Cain is great, and if he beats JDS then I say he’s got 50/50 odds against Fedor in his prime.
I hope people seriously don’t think like this…
I'm Don Frye and your not. - Don Frye
by MrTechnique420 on Oct 25, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just silly...
Takedowns can be stopped. Top control can be escaped often with ease.
Yes, they can, but only if the one stopping them is an elite wrestler themselves, otherwise no…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 25, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I would hold off on saying cain could beat fedor. Not everyone can stop a takedown. Ask anyone who’s fought shields or fitch or maynard. I think cain can dominate for awhile but he’s not the second coming of fedor.
by ronrod on Oct 25, 2010 4:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
If he soundly defeats JDS, Carwin, Lesnar again and who ever else over the next 2 years, while continuing to improve with each fight, then those sort of comparisons can first be looked at. Great as he looked, so have many, many others over a short time period.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 26, 2010 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Limits of Wrestling or Limited Wrestling?
Because what Lesnar displayed was the latter. I saw a bull rush power double, and a pull-back double and that was it out of Lesnar. I think by the college level, especially with Heavier weights, a lot of fundamentals and technical wrestling like other takedowns, rides and mat wrestling get forgotten because the freestyle rule set seems to favour power and speed over methodical technique.
It doesnt make a difference how confident Brock is
He is not getting past Cain. Brock used the same strategy he uses in all of his fights. Bull rush his opponent and go for the take down. He came at Cain in a more aggressive manner, but the game plan was still the same. Even if Brock had been more cautious and patient, when ever he did manage to take Cain down, he would spring back up to his feet.
Brock Lesnar was out classed in MMA, which i called before the fight. He wasnt just out struck, but he was beaten at his own game; wrestling. As i thought, Cains centre of gravity is very low, he scooped underneath Brock, got a leg and dumped him on the mat.
I would like to see Brock face Nog next.
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