Does Brock Lesnar Have a Fighter's Heart? Cain Velasquez Beating Raises the Question
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 2:10 AM EDT
in UFC Editorial
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Brock Lesnar was heavily hyped for the second fight in a row. For the second fight in a row the mammoth UFC champion cowered at the first sign of danger. Joe Rogan likes to say that Lesnar is the modern reincarnation of a Viking warrior. If that's true, he's the one who never ventured off the boat, or at least did so very carefully and only after making sure the coast was very clear.
Brock Lesnar has all the tools to dominate UFC competition. He's physically overpowering, with strong wrestling and giant hands, tailor-made for clubbering. What he doesn't have is the heart of a warrior. That's not a critique of his value as a person. It's a natural reaction to cringe and defend when a huge fighter like Cain Velasquez is pummeling you. But it's not the right reaction for a man who wants to be the Ultimate Fighting champion.
For Lesnar, the weakness might not even be mental. It could be, like many promising fighters past and present, he just can't take the blows. Tonight he took a glancing blow from Velasquez, careened into his hip, then stumbled around the cage like a drunk at last call (or like Zab Judah after being knocked silly by Kosta Tszyu). It wasn't dignified, but it was certainly memorable.
Velasquez, for his part, never lost his composure. The first ever Mexican heavyweight champion was calm and collected, even as the 265 pound Lesnar took him to the mat. He not only escaped harm, he actually got to his feet and secured a takedown of his own. Cain showed all the promise, lived up to the lofty expectations, and performed even more superbly than expected. When Lesnar was shaken, Velasquez was right there for the kill, never losing control like Shane Carwin had, always cognizant of his positioning and picking his shots. It was a masterful performance.
We all thought that this might be the era of the dominant heavyweight champion. But who knew it would be the Velasquez era? We knew Cain was good, but he showed the tools to be great tonight. The king is dead - long live the king.
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call me silly
But Brock will retire if he does not manage to get his title back soon :) He is not a guy to play for 2nd place
by SheepleBuster on Oct 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I love how quickly you got this out
And look forward to the comments.
Now I completely agree. He’s great when he’s the hammer not when he’s the nail. This will end up being important in Brock’s decision to continue fighting. He didn’t show up at the press conference which isn’t a good sign.
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aside from Mark Hunt and Big Nog cerca 2002, has everyone ever been great “as the nail?”
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
I think there are some guys that have a heart to fight back
Brock doesn’t have that.
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by Matthew Roth on Oct 24, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You escaped a mohawk
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Zak...I have to eat a Habanero
I’m just saying when it comes down to it…if Carwin doesn’t punch himself out this fight doesn’t even happen. Brock doesn’t stay composed.
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by Matthew Roth on Oct 24, 2010 3:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Brock just seems like that he has to be the bully in the cage. The way he covers up especially by going into a ball are real indications that Brock just does not like getting hit or getting bullied. I mean, no one likes to get hit, but reacts to getting hit in a bad way.
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I think the Brock has no heart talk is uncalled for.
First things first. Brock had diverticulitous, he fought through that, he the option to retire then. He chose to fight through it and continue his career. Next, the Carwin fight, Lesnar was faced with adversity in the ring for the first time in his career. Did Lesnar quit? We all know the answer is no, Brock weathered the storm, then won the fight. While the question is a legit question, I disagree with the underlying Brock bashing. Brock isn’t my favorite fighter, I could care less if he fights or not. My point, is, that, Brock has proven too be a fighter in more then 1 sense of the word. So, I don’t expect to see him quit mma right now. IMHO, Lesnar will try to make another run at the title. Once you’ve tasted the sour, the sweet tastes that much sweeter.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Leben
Even Cain, when he got clocked pretty good by Kongo, kept coming forward.
Well, coming forward meaning dropping down for the takedown. Jake Shields showed that instinct tonight too, when caught by knees in the clinch. It’s interesting that most wrestlers when hit devolve into their wrestling and instinctively go for the takedown, but Brock doesn’t.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
And lots of fighters end bouts when their opponent has them reeling. They stay composed and counter a charging foe. It’s fairly common. You can’t do it when your back is turn or your eyes are closed.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Exhibit A
Fedor
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
yessir
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Oct 24, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Robbie Lawler V Melvin Mantooth
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Oct 24, 2010 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Technically, it doesn't "beg the question".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
…Interesting point nonetheless – it’s further given credence when considered how he backed straight up against Carwin.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:03 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Thank you -- I was just going to post this.
Pedants of the world unite.
by StephenDedalus on Oct 24, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Well that just means that Snowden is using a logical fallacy in his argument
Which he is:
A “fighter’s heart” means you don’t run from strikes and stand and fight like a man
Brock Lesnar ran from strikes
Therefore Brock Lesnar doesn’t have a fighter’s heart
That’s begging the question. That’s what he did. Logical fallacy.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
You are on fire tonight. I’m sorry for your loss.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
That's not begging the question - that's a straight-up syllogism
“No fighters with heart are runners from strikes.
Brock Lesnar is a runner from strikes.
Therefore, Brock Lesnar is not a fighter with heart.”
It’s the syllogistic form “Cesare” (PeM, SaM, SeP), I believe. I’m not up on my Medieval philosophy like I should be.
Begging the question would be more like Descartes’s cogito
“I think
Therefore, I am”
He is presupposing the “I” that he is trying to prove when he uses it in the initial premise.
Begging the question is simply the same as circular reasoning.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Using the link you posted is all
. A specific form of this is reducing an assertion to an instance of a more general assertion which is no more known to be true than the more specific assertion:
* All intentional acts of killing human beings are morally wrong.
* The death penalty is an intentional act of killing a human being.
* Therefore the death penalty is wrong.
If the first premise is accepted as an axiom within some moral system or code, this reasoning is a cogent argument against the death penalty. If not, it is in fact a weaker argument than a mere assertion that the death penalty is wrong, since the first premise is stronger than the conclusion.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Snowden 1, Black ex-champion 0.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Oct 24, 2010 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's not a point for Snowden. Just a negative point for me
Snowden lost a point for the wrong title.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think his heart should not be in question. It’s not heart when he looks out of place in the fight and doesn’t know what to do, or when he’s over-matched in certain areas.
I don’t think it does anything to that. The UFC wishes they could control people’s buying habits and make all their fighters as big as Brock Lesnar was, but its not something in their control.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand the question. Are you asking if the UFC will continue to build stars in order to sell events? Yes.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m asking about your paradigm shift you referred to the other day. Guess cut and past works both ways.
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know what you mean. We are still seeing select fighters moving the needle on both television and PPV. Those fighters are the select few able to make a regular show a financial standout. So they will still be rewarded, likely beyond what their peers with similar in cage accomplishments make.
By the way, there are people reading this who aren’t going to react well to any cut and paste weirdness. So I wouldn’t walk that path if I were you.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless they are just boring fighters, (Matt Lindland) the UFC will market train them into selling tickets. Of course there will always be fan favorites. That’s as old as sports. I’m asking about the UFC’s need to adjust due to this new paradigm shift of, how did you put it, “fighters transcending the promotion”. “Will the UFC adjust to this new paradigm shift” How does Brock’s transcension look now? Lots of eggs for a basket not fixed.
Obviously some rating are higher than others. Again, it doesn’t hurt the UFC to have a little too much content out there. As long as if you’re watching MMA, it’s UFC’s brand. I’m pretty sure those cards with less rating have ‘lesser’ stars and promotional push. Hence less dollar output.
What? Do you believe the UFC expected to draw the same return for UFC 120 as UFC 121? Wonder why the did almost no marketing and had no high pay stars on the 120 card? You act like they lost money.
Straddling the fence all the time must hurt.
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
One was a free TV show and one was a PPV with the sport’s biggest star. I’m not following your train of thought and am tapping out. Enjoy your evening.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
We need Ubereem in the UFC. Every single one of these heavyweights would wilt to his striking just like Lesnar did.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
100% agreed
now that Lesnar has been dethroned, it might actually happen. Dana didn’t seem to pleased.
..!..
pfft
A bit early for the velasquez era, don’t you think?
by slamnbam88 on Oct 24, 2010 1:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Always striking while the iron is hot
I love it!
I’m a big Brock fan but you know, (insert expletive) it.
That was a garbage performance by Brock and Cain looked like a monster. Let’s see how the man bounces back.
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Holy crap
I don’t know what made me laugh and smile more – the outcome of this fight, or this article coming out so quickly.
BOOSH
I completely agree
The only question now is do we have to sit through another Mir vs Lesnar fight =(
I bet Lesnar retires
Dana is going to pull a Childress.
yeah
he’s done.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I say Lesnar is one more embarrassment away from leaving MMA.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 24, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Amazed you survived all the “haters gonna hate” replies for 3 months! :-)
by William Wilson on Oct 24, 2010 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
WTF is this "Velasquez era" BS? He hasn't even defended the belt.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:08 AM EDT reply actions
it's called the internet
or better yet hyperbole-net
who's gonna beat him?
JDS? Too slow, no ground game?
We got a guy with speed, skills, and stength.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Oh shit, now the guy is unbeatable. I got a hundred bucks that says he loses within his next 3 fights, you in?
I'm in...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 24, 2010 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions
People said the same thing about Machida
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
. . . hey man, its the MMA internet
you have to expect immediate ridiculous reactionary banter to flow.
“The Velasquez era” = Aldo unbeatable = more bullsh*t
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 24, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
And a guy who couldnt stand for 10 seconds against Kongo without getting embarrassed, literally. And JDS is light years better as a striker then Kongo.
Cain has shown significant improvement
In each fight over the previous ones. Then again, so did Brock until his illness (although not nearly the sort of technical improvements that Cain has shown).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm tired of people saying JDS has no ground game.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I don’t think any one can say eather way. When have we seen it ? I don’t know about you but I have not seen to many of JDS in XFC and DEmo fight now. I know this forsure I am not going to say he has some great Jits just because the Nog Bros and Ed Soares tell me so ?
He might be an Anderson Silva case
Where we don’t know how is ground game is until he gets taken down.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
add Demian Maia
to the list of people who said he has great jits. But I see your point, we can’t say he doesn’t have it either though
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
It's really funny of how you of all people is upset about internet hyperbole and trolling blog posts.
by Josh Grant on Oct 24, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
Uhhhhh
I wasn’t really referring to just Snowden.
Rogan said it on the broadcast as well. You know?
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes. It is. I rec'd it.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a confusing post. How can you question Brock Lesnar’s heart? Did you see the Shane Carwin fight? A fighter who takes a beating, like Lesnar did in his fight against Carwin, and is still able to come back and win – is overwhelming proof of heart.
Im not a big Lesnar fan – but his comeback against Carwin and his humility after his fight that night (as well as his humility tonight) earned my respect.
Perhaps you mean to question his CHIN?
I think you may have made a quick-fire post without giving your ideas much second thought.
by Ajay Sandhu on Oct 24, 2010 1:09 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm not so sure chin is the issue. I believe Lesnar simply hates getting hit and when he does get hit, he panics; just like we saw tonight and against Carwin.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
And yet, he didnt seem phased when Randy was clipping him with point blank shots. I’m telling you, that illness did more to Brock mentally then any of us realized until now. Thats my theory.
Randy’s an old man and has never been much of a power puncher. Still, 20 years ago, Randy would have whipped Lesner brutally… of course, Lesner would have only been 13 years old… so it’d lose some of it’s luster.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
That Randy fight was much closer then people realize, that was pretty much a stalemate til Brock landed the MAtt Serra patented undefendable shot to the top of the head. IT was a close fight while it lasted.
Oh yeah, for sure. The most telling thing about that fight was that Brock couldn’t take Randy down as easily as you’d expect… and at one point randy dragged the big fella down.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
Thats why, when people piss and moan about Randy’s status when hes only 17-10 or whatever, just pop in that fight and let them see him battle a 285 pound bull to a standstill til getting nailed with a lucky shot.
I wouldn’t call it lucky… if they stood and traded shot for shot for more than 20 seconds, randy would end up unconscious. I’m pretty sure Randy could take a crowbar to Brock and not knock him out.
Since speed goes before strength in the battle against old age, Randy can still grapple at a high level, but striking he’ll be at a tremendous disadvantage.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
and that
is why he’ll never hold the belt against legit challengers.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
He didn't come back till Carwin gassed
easy to gain heart when your opponent is tired. Every time Carwin hit him he ran.
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Typed the man who has never learned the difference between commonly confused words.
by Brent Ducharme on Oct 24, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
Well played
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Oct 24, 2010 2:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What does that have to do with anything? It’s easy to beat a guy who isn’t fighting back.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
It has everything to do when you say
it is easy to gain heart when your opponent is tired. Step in against a tired and gassed but still game Carwin and see for yourself.
No, it doesn’t. It’s a largely demonstrable fact that it’s easy to gain confidence when your opponent isn’t resisting. Besides, it doesn’t matter if Carwin was game – if he couldn’t physically move, he was no threat. Kyle Maynard was game, too…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
have you ever fought?
If yes, then you can speak from experience. If not, you sir are just spouting an uneducated and inexperienced opinion, with all due respect.
But you don't mean any respect.
Why can’t I comment on a fighter without having fought? I’ve never written a book or filmed a movie but am quite skilled at analyzing both. I have competed in other events and can say from that experience that when I was crushing an overmatched opponent, I felt confident. When it was a close game, I wasn’t as confident. Why couldn’t those psychological states transfer into other forms of competition, such as fighting?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
You can definitely have an opinion
I just disagree with it being “easy to gain heart”. There is nothing “easy” at all in a fight when someone is trying to break a limp or take your head off. You sense danger, openings, awareness, weakness, etc. But personally I would not ever categorize it as easy. Just not a word I would associate with it. That’s why I took exception to it is all.
You have a point, but you have to admit, it’s encouraging to gain heart when your opponent is useless. It’s much harder when he’s charging you like a Bull and already nearly beat you into half a millenia.
That Carwin match said something about Brock’s heart, when he’s getting the beatdown, his heart doesn’t say “you gonna have to kill that muthalicker”, his heart only said that when it was clear he wasn’t in any danger. And you can really just sort of watch the screen and get that, you don’t have to be a fighter to figure it out. You just compare it to someone like, well, Cain against Kongo. That was a warrior. He was getting his ass handed to him and he upped his level.
A great example was Huerta against Guida. When Huerta was getting out husstled, you saw him come out with pure heart and just out pressure Guida at his own game, and Guida wasn’t gassed.
He made three statements:
1) He didn’t come back until Carwin gassed
2) It’s easy to gain heart when your opponent is tired
3) Every time Carwin hit him he ran
Each of these statements is either true or false. Whether they are true are not is completely unrelated to whether the commenter has fought or not. It is irrelevant. Knowledge can be gained in many ways, and it’s not uncommon for an observer to have more knowledge of an activity than the person who actually performs the activity. Unless you can make a factual, logical argument against what was actually stated, then you are simply trying to distract from that fact with this repetitive claim about someone else’s fighting experience.
I argue there is nothing "easy" about fighting
Anyone claiming otherwise is speaking out of their ass. Ask anyone who has fought and they will tell you there is nothing easy at all about it. Not even gaining heart when you sense weakness or an opponent is gassed.
I understand what you are saying, but “you never fought” is not an argument. If you are a fighter, then this discussion would benefit from your first-hand knowledge — but you didn’t offer any of that knowledge. You basically just said to shut up.
Really?
Fine.
I’ve had three amateur MMA fights, I’ve been boxing in golden gloves for five years. When my opponent starts to back up my confidence skyrockets. There happy?
And take your pathetic argument from Authority fallacy and put it where it belongs. Have you fought? Guarantee you haven’t fought as much as I have, guess that makes me right about everything. You’re posts reek of trollery and uneducated fallacy. I hope you’re not serious.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
I have fought
And I see you did not use the word easy. Sensing weakness is definitely something that happens, as you would well know. So is being afraid. But something being easy, sorry not buying it and not trying to troll. Wasn’t mean to come across as authoritarian, sorry if it did. Still nothing easy to me about stepping into a fight. Nothing at all. Perhaps you are just that much better or that much more experienced. Maybe its me.
What is Dana White, Ed Soares , or Mauro’s record as fighters? Should we discount their opinion too?
by memitim on Oct 24, 2010 2:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hi memitim
Just wanted you to remember why Overeem the best!
Shane exposed Brock earlier, and so does Cain now.
Brock was overhyped en now you know it…..
Bring in Alistair and we shall see!
It disappoints me when some vocal people in cyberspace hide behind a pseudonym and make malicious and baseless attacks against athletes that have never failed a screen for banned substances. These keyboard toxicologists think that they can merely look at an athlete and "know" that so-and-so is a "juicer." There is a term for that. It's called "delusions of grandeur," and medication may help. (Dr. Johnny Benjamin)
I mean I've seen Brock Lesnar take full on chair shots to the face
yea yea fake wrestling blah blah, but it’s a fucking chair shot. He did it multiple times, he coul’ve said “no”. I don’t know.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
And thus, ladies and gentlemen, Brocks shaky chin. Taking chair shots and botching moonsaults for 5 years will do that to you.
by Hutchy on Oct 24, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm talking about his WILLINGNESS to take strikes
Nothing more, nothing less.
So go “amazing” somewhere else.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
A chair shot to the top of the head that you see and brace for is an entirely different game than punches coming from angles you don’t expect from a resisting opponent.
For years the wrestling fans pointed to his ability to take chair shots and a botched moonsault to him being an iron chinned monster. Now somehow he has post concussion syndrome and it ruined him. Like, maybe Cain Velasquez is a better heavyweight than a 45 year old, 16 month inactive Randy Couture. That might not be tough to realize and accept.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Wrestling fans said that? Are they idiots? Taking chair shots for 5 years ruins guys, hence why WWE has banned unprotected chair shots to the head due to the terrible damage it inflicts. Anyone who said it helped his chin is a retard.
Yes. Lots of them did.
Frankly, I don’t buy that the chair shots had any great effect on his chin. The dude had never been tagged by someone with power until the Carwin fight. We’ve seen it twice now and he reacts the same way. Why does he move straight back and down instead of closing the distance?
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I never heard that argument before.
If it was made, they are fucking idfiots.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Look, Ricardo Mayorga (remember him from the SHINE fiasco?) used to do something in every fight – early on, he’d stick his chin out and dare his opponent to hit him. And they would. And Mayorga would smile afterwards. It used to kill a lot of fighter’s confidence because they just hit a dude as hard as they could and he is standing there smiling afterwards like nothing happened. Mayorga knew that they could hit him full force and as long as he knew it was coming and he could see the punch, he could prepare his body and, in his words, “it doesn’t hurt”.
Mayorga still got knocked the hell out by Trinidad and De La Hoya though. You know why? Because they hit him when he wasn’t expecting it from places he didn’t see it coming.
Aside from the obvious differences in being hit with a large, flat, fairly malleable piece of steel or plastic and the human fist wrapped in tape and some padding, the big difference is that Lesnar isn’t seeing punches coming. They hit him, he goes out. That’s what happens.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I conceded that point below to another poster
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not pointing out that as a show of his chin
I’m saying that he took the shots willingly. If he was scared of getting hit, he wouldn’t. And he wasn’t taking the normal “throw your hands up to block” shots, he took straight to the face like a baseball swing
I don’t know anything about “PCS” or any of that other dumb shit. I’m talking about willingness to take shots.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
That probably didn’t make him smarter, maybe you can explain the gameplan failure with this.
I'm a lover not a fighter
That wasn't his gameplan failure
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Intent changes perception
which changes reality. Those men and the chair shots weren’t really trying to rip his head off. I’m also fairly sure they were not true all out shots.
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
True.
That’s a good point.
Just like practice. They’re not trying to finish you, so you’re going to stay in the pocket.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Is this really the argument you're going to go with?
Really?
I’m a Brock fan and I’m disappointed by his loss but let’s cut the crap man. Get over it.
Scratch that. I really like seeing you struggle to maintain your self righteousness.
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Did you read what I said?
My point has little to do with the fight. He lost. He got his ass kicked. Snowden questioned his willingness to get hit. I provided a counter. WTF?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
You pointed out a willingness to get hit in the head with a chair in a pro wrestling match. Which was the best post of your BE career and I thank you for it.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 19 recs
Maybe I should whine to you about insulting SBN "teammates" in public
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I love this!
You’re completely coming off the rails!
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by Worldisart on Oct 24, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nah, I'm just throwing it back in his face
And I care MUCH more about the money lost than Brock losing.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Was Brock losing like a virtual chairshot to the face?
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Nope.
Temporary hit to the wallet. One that I will make up
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Throwing what back in who's face?
I don’t always agree with Snowden but he’s one of the preeminent observers of this sport and you’re nothing but a hack writer looking to get a cheap pop out of people.
In a discussion about MMA with Johnathon Snowden, you are to him what a high school physics teacher is to Albert Einstein, a pale shadow of anything resembling a contemporary.
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by Worldisart on Oct 24, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions 13 recs
Uhhh, no.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
The truth hurts.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
Uhh yes
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I can't wait for that to be greened
:D
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh I'm sure you'll chalk it up to your "ABL" phenomenon
Couldn’t possibly be because there’s any truth to it.
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Snowden is NOT fucking Einstein, dude. I don’t care what you think of S.C., I find him occasionally insightful and generally good-humored. Snowden’s a good writer who gets way too serious about criticism. He’s not miles ahead of anyone.
It was an analogy. Learn english.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
I'm saying your analogy was inappropriate and inaccurate.
Learn reading comprehension.
by gzl5000 on Oct 24, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Learn english.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
I'll work on that..
…only after you pass the TOEFL ;)
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
Dude, seriously.
What I said was clearly responding to the analogy. How am I the one with the reading comprehension problem?
He was clearly working within the analogy
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Shhhhh, don't say that
I mean I couldn’t care less what that guy thinks, but he’s wildly mistaken.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
You're ruining the FUN
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
gotcha
thanks for the heads-up.
People give that guy way more shit than he deserves IMO, but I guess this is the internet.
I respect Snowden’s knowledge, but Michaelson is way more entertaining.
I love it honestly
I find it all hilarious.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Like Sonnen, Kos wins most of his fights, so trolling is tolerable
Black Lesnar just lurks around here waiting to argue with people he’ll never meet in person.
I guess talent is a pre-rec for tolerable trolling habits.
Snowden is great for this site because he has unique points of view and gets people talking. I dont always (or often) agree with some of his knee-jerk analysis immediately following big events but he IS the most entertaining and thought provoking writer here.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Proud BElitest.
by MMArazorback on Oct 24, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean people lurk around looking to argue with ME
Most of my comments are reactionary.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd go with Anderson Silva
I could fight better (write better), but this way is more fun
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Coming from you this has to hurt tremendously
Still trying ti wield the imaginary power that you don’t have?
That's lame dude
Do what I’m doing, a fighter you lost, it happens, suck it up, there are zero redeeming things to take from it for Brock and using his willingness to what he’s paid for in a predetermined forum as evidence of his willingness to get hit is lame.
It’s a weak argument and if you were being honest with yourself you’d admit that.
But like I said, I don’t care, I don’t care for your contributions here and I think your reaction is quite funny.
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My point has nothing to do with the fight. I've admitted 20 times in various threads he got his ass beat
I’m not out of touch. IMO a motherfucker crazy enough to take facefirst hard chair shots wouldn’tt seem like someone ghastly afraid of punches.
THIS WAS MY THOUGHT BEFORE THE FIGHT
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you still actually think that though? Like, really?
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
NO
I said that already
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions
we know you admit he got his ass beat.
You’d have to be a total moron not too.
Now step up your game and admit he isn’t that great of an MMA fighter and we’ll be getting somewhere.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
It’s amusing how far he’ll go to always defend Brock.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
How is that defending Brock?
I was talking about MY thought process and analysis of Lesnar before the fights.
Of course, an idiot will read that and see it as “defending” Lesnar.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Your thought process for this fight involved steel chairs and his antics on Raw?
Really?
http://www.instrength.com
Don't be literal here
It was something I thought (briefly) in regards to his willingness to take strikes. But keep it coming with the leading questions.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions
the difference in be willing to take a hard chairshot to the face in pro wrestling and taking a hard punch to the face in MMA is that in pro wrestling Brock doesn’t have to worry about the guy in pro wrestling continually coming after him trying to put his lights out. It’s a lot easier to be willing to take a hard shot to the face when you don’t have to worry about a fake fighter trying to do you harm and beat you in a worked sport like WWE.
That’s why your whole point is silly to begin with
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Yea we established that 2 hours ago if you'll just look a lil bit above you in anotehrmmafans's post
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I have a theory, that I didnt even realize I had before right this second: I think that it is actually very possible that the illness took far more out of Brock then any of us realized. He certainly doesnt look remotely like the same fighter he was before the illness. However, it is perfectly understandable that Brock’s chin might be a little shaky, how many concussions did he incur in his WWE days? Who knows? 5? 6?
Writing the dude off cause he got his ass kicked once is foolish. If he quits MMA, then you can bag on his heart.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
Where are all those brock fans now?
All the guys saying he could clip anybody?
that Pat Barry taught him how to kick box?
Brock surivied on size alone, and in Carwins case that his enemy couldn’t get out of round 1.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by VelociAldo on Oct 24, 2010 1:10 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
WORD!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 24, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
truth
I have had the biggest smile on my face tonight…all is right in my MMA world.
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Oct 24, 2010 4:22 AM EDT up reply actions
"Velasquez Era"???
Ohhh this must be like the Machida Era.
Ohhh except Cain is American, check your facts.
Ohhh and Lesnar came back from a beat down against Carwin so you question his heart. Step in a cage or a ring and then say that.
Other than that, your post is spot on as always. Ohh wait…
Yea exactly!
No one is allowed to say anything negative about anyone unless the are willing to step in and face that person!
And of course you can’t be a Mexican if you were born in America! DUH PEOPLE!!!
"We knew it could get out of hand..." Dick Jauron following 56-10 loss to New England.
again with the "step into the cage or ring and say that" bs?
Seriously? Why are you here if you can’t read an opinion without crying like a girl… I’m sure BrockLesner! appreciates you defending him but why rebut an opinion? You’re wasting your time, quit your lactating!
by SkeezinSteevin on Oct 24, 2010 1:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Heavyweight division just got more exciting.
Exciting contenders coming up (Struve, Schaub). Older guys (Mir, Carwin, and Lesnar) looking to prove they still belong. And the young lions at the top (Cain with the belt and JDS as the number 2). Let’s get Overeem, Del Rosario and Cormier in there and make things even crazier.
Fool me once....
I didn’t agree with you after the Carwin fight, but Brock fell into the exact same pattern this fight. If you can hit Lesnar on the chin and keep your composure you will win the fight.
Randy did both and lost convincingly. Something is off with Brock mentally, and I’m not quite sure what it is.
I'm with you.
His brain ain’t there.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Its not his heart,
its his instincts. And he doesn’t have the experience to be able to overcome those instictive responses in real time. He gets his wits about him quickly, but he has a flash panic reaction of some sort when he gets tagged.
I’m guessing he about shit himself when he did the rolling/stumbling/whatever across the octagon thinking he was escaping for a moment, only to have hitting landing combinations the second he stood up against the fence…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:13 AM EDT reply actions 13 recs
came here to say the exact same thing.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 24, 2010 1:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Its kind of the anti-Fedor response
When Fedor has gotten hit, even if its a heavy combination, he stays cool, keeps thinking and weathers the storm until he has an opening to respond in. Never panics.
I’m far from a Fedor fanboy, but I think he got overconfident against Werdum after how easily he escaped the first time and thought that was all he had…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
for sure, as soon as he gets hit real good by Carwin he backs up and almost cowers. The reaction of a professional fighter should not be to cower, normal people sure, but a professional fighter?
?
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Oct 24, 2010 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions
"almost cowers"
Let’s be real. He cowers. He cringed. He runs.
He did it against Carwin. He did it against Velasquez.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 24, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I was trying to be gentle, so I would not furthur upset so many people on the brock train. But yeah he cowers.
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Oct 25, 2010 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Great point
Getting hit in the face is scary and unpleasant. Most people naturally react very, very badly when it happens. A small subgroup of people — fighters — have a different reaction, but that reaction is very difficult to train.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 24, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Lesnar gassed after 2 minutes
That was not right. Maybe he was thinking about Canada too much?
Nah, he had a burrito and Corona for lunch. Didnt sit too well.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 24, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I just wannna know where is my MMA LIVE? This is bullshit!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Blame Miami and UNC taking for-fecking-ever to finish the game.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
Now you know why I eat dos tacos al pastor con queso y aquacate
Everyday. BROWN PRIDE!
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by Matthew Roth on Oct 24, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions
FUCK YEAH!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 24, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll review the taco truck. I don't think they'll know about the fight. But hope they do.
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by Matthew Roth on Oct 24, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
College Football on ESPN..
is taking up Sportscenters spot.
So they delayed/taped MMA Live for when the Football game is over.
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"and to Adam J. Morris and the Lone Star Ball regulars; go fuck yourself."- cmkelly29
by TooLegitToQuit on Oct 24, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
You just saw Brock's fighter heart in July.
Cain was better and Brock gassed.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
I’m not sure you can call it “gassing” after 4 minutes. That’s usually called “quitting.”
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
Trying to takedown Cain twice
And throwing flying knees and exchanges ate up a lot of energy. Probably was amazed he couldn’t hold Cain down. He was breathing heavily before the knee and punch dropped him.
Was the Carwin fight then just a lucky break?
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
As a big guy myself I can tell you that if you’re Carwin or Brocks size you probably are only going to last about 4 minutes at that pace all of Brocks other fights have have been at a slower, more controlled pace.
by 775assassin on Oct 24, 2010 1:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I wasn't sure whether he was gassed or just really rocked
But he was breathing very heavily when Rogan interviewed him something like 5 minutes after the fight was over.
Not afraid to nitpick
People forget
how fast Lesnar tapped to Mir’s loose kneebar. The guy is just afraid to take any damage.
IT WAS HIS SECOND FUCKING FIGHT. Jesus, people read WAY too much into one fight that lasted less than 5 minutes.
3 fights
now, displaying the same heart, is a trend.
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus, fron what I understand, Mir leverages those arm and knee bars against his cup, using the cup as a pressure point to break bones. Just what I’ve heard anyway.
Mir said
it was loose. Look for yourself though.
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Well if Frank Mir said it it MUST be true
by ufc4 on Oct 24, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It was loose.
the Rooster! the Rider! a Man on the Rooster! the Rider of the Apocalypse!
by dancingChicken on Oct 24, 2010 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Francisco "Fulcrum Cup" Mir
Say you?
by Brent Ducharme on Oct 24, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Being able to take a punch doesn't necessarily have anything to do with heart.
Brock cringed initially when Carwin was bombing him – who wouldn’t – but he stayed calm and recovered. He cringed again when Cain hit him, but couldn’t recover this time because Cain was being more picky with his shots and the ref didn’t give him all the time in the world. It’s not his heart. It’s his natural reaction to getting hit. Clearly he needs to work on his mental game to overcome that initial reaction to getting hit.
Come on
He cringed because he doesn’t like getting hit in the face. Period.
Any other explanation sounds like an exaggeration.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions
But I don’t think because he doesn’t like to get hit in the face, you can automatically discount his heart. A few months ago he survived the Carwin fight and won. Everyone praised his heart. Now he has no heart. WTF?
Some people knew what they were seeing.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Did he cringe the same way he did in his last two fights? And run away?
Yes.
He doesn’t like getting hit in the face. He’s still not comfortable on his feet despite a beautiful reach advantage at HW.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 24, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep. For some reason he hates getting hit in the face
in his last two fights.
Before that, it bothered him, but he didn’t run.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Who hit him with the force that Carwin or Velasquez did in his prior FOUR MMA BOUTS? Its not like there was this huge sample size of dudes with KO power.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm just saying
It’s not like he runs from strikes, he runs from HARD strikes
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by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Who was gonna land a hard strike on him? Please don’t tell me Randy Couture.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 24, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Not heart, instinct. He doesn’t have the instincts a fighter needs, which means not covering up like if you were attacked by bees when you’re under pressure. You can work on this and acquire good reflexes with experience. But does he have that kind of time left?
You can’t improve your heart though. That’s why I think the nuance is important.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Oct 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
This
He doesn’t have that natural swing back mentality. It can be learned but it takes more than just 3 years.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Who likes getting hit in the face? Other than Leben I mean.
by 775assassin on Oct 24, 2010 1:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
For the most part no one like getting hit in the face . . .
But how many people have you seen CRINGE, COWER, COVER UP and RUN LIKE Brock Lesnar?
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 24, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
People react differently to things they don't like
For a lot of fighters, the first instinctive reaction to being hit in the face is to hit the guy back.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 24, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Watch the replay
It was the huge knee to the chin at the end of the combination thrown just after the breakdance move that put him on queer street, then Cain moved to finish him.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Rewatching that part on MMA Live
And can’t see the time, but its just after the 5-6 punch combo when Brock tried to return a couple of weak uppercuts and Cain just kills him with that knee…Brocks knees look like they give for an instant and he stumbles forward along the fence where Cain follows with some smaller shots and then the coup de grace right hook to the left side of Brock’s head…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm in Houston
Its on ESPN2 here, have it paused on the DVR.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Brock is a Bully
He’s a wrecking ball. He’s physically unreal in terms of athleticism. He’s ridiculously strong. And he’s a coward once someone stands up to him(Or starts hitting him). I said this after the 2nd Mir fight. Mir hit him and Brock wanted nothing to do with it but lucky for him Mir walked right into grabbing range. Nothing new was learned tonight. Now if you’ll excuse me i have to continue my IRL gloating and money collecting.
Can we please effing remember that Cain Velasquez was born in the US? This is really getting to me. He’s no more Mexican than I am African. I don’t care that he speaks the language. He’s American.
He sees himself that way. It’s kind of a fine line. Is he a Mexican by way of heritage? Is Mexican a nationality or a state of mind?
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m tired of that “Mexican pride” stuff too but in fairness to Cain he was just doing what his employers asked of him
He's Mexican-American...
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"and to Adam J. Morris and the Lone Star Ball regulars; go fuck yourself."- cmkelly29
by TooLegitToQuit on Oct 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Cain. Velasquez. Cain. Velasquez.
Velasquez
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"and to Adam J. Morris and the Lone Star Ball regulars; go fuck yourself."- cmkelly29
by TooLegitToQuit on Oct 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Last one took 6 months of badgering by me to make the Kindle. The real answer is I don’t know. I hope so. It is a nice book though and has some good pictures. I buy almost everything via ebook these days, but this is the kind of book I would get a physical copy of.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
BROCK VERBALLY SUBMITTED?
LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD.
Who does he think he is, Tito? heh
"Fuck Tom Hicks. There is no aspect of my baseball universe that man hasn't shit on."
"and to Adam J. Morris and the Lone Star Ball regulars; go fuck yourself."- cmkelly29
lulz
lullllz
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
No it does not "beg the question"
It “raises the question”. Begging the question is a logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) not a provoking item of interest.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
by IKilled007 on Oct 24, 2010 1:26 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I think the point is lost in an "OMG Snowden Haterz!!!" onslaught.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I hear ya.
"You stick a microphone in a guy's face and he calls out anybody but the champion, and Joe Silva should fax him a pink slip right then." -- Chael Sonnen.
I’ll still rec you – great minds think alike.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired. -Jonathan Swift
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
looks like he fixed it. maybe snowden is a secret snowden hater.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
I am happy to fix mistakes. Thanks to those who brought it to my attention.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Even though I believe that Brock Lesnar is pure evil and was sent here by Satan to destroy MMA, I think that he is more inexperienced than he is lacking in heart. At this stage of his development he should probably be fighting amateur matches. I don’t think he ran from Carwin and Cain as much as he had no idea what to do, and did not have the instincts that he might gain from long-term training in striking techniques.
Brock
Sucks vs mexicans
Eddie Guerrero proved this
"Don't be scared homie!" Mayhem Miller
by We All Hate Caleb on Oct 24, 2010 1:38 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm a big Brock fan
but Mexicans are his Kryptonite.
Pro-wrestling and MMA: I have the best of both worlds.
by Rod Mapada on Oct 24, 2010 1:41 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
God bless you. Also, RIP Eddie Guerrero, one of my all time favs.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 24, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe we are attacking the Lesnar-Cain fight the wrong way.
I am a Lesnar fan. Just so we are clear. I find that Brock Lesnar lost this fight for two reasons. One, He under estimated the power and technique of Cain. Two, he is really inexperience. I was the first to jump up and say that he is big, strong, and the greatest thing since slice bread, however he is still very green. Lesnar has been thrown to the wolves since he started mma and he is learning it on the fly. This fight really drove it home for me. I believe the best example of Lesnar’s inexperience is to look at Cain himself.
The UFC brought along Cain slowly allowing him to build upon his technique by fighting very winnable fights. His fights with O’Brien and Stojinc were not very impressive fights. I really doubt that Cain could have beaten the top fighters if he would have fought them then which brings me back to Lesnar. This is a valuable lesson for him. I believe this is a growing process with him and I think it would be premature to write him off so soon.
"I was not impressed by your performance"
by wiggie on Oct 24, 2010 1:42 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I think this is mostly right, except that Lesnar is really up against his age. Starting as late as he did, it will be difficult for him to improve his skills faster than his physical abilities are diminishing. I realize that there are successful fighters who start late, but that is not normal. Unless Randy Couture is Brock’s dad, Brock is going to have trouble getting a lot better.
No, he's not against age. He's against MONEY
Carwin is much older than Brock and was brought along slowly. The only reason why Brock was pushed was because he’s getting paid a shit ton.
And because Brock didn’t want scrubs.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
All athletes are racing with their age. Carwin is two and a half years older than Brock. We tend to think of Lesnar as being younger than he is because he’s new to the sport and was not brought along slowly. But neither that nor his payouts change the fact that it’s going to be hard for him to get a lot better at his age.
Lesnar faced a former champion at 31, Carwin at 35
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not just age, really
It’s age versus amount of time in the sport. Brock is racing his age more than others because he’s been training for a much shorter time, and thus has more ground to make up in that same small time span.
I have watched Cain Velasquez’s UFC career from the beginning. He started off bad. He could take guys down at will but, could only pepper them with punches for a stoppages. Then Cain fought Kongo and got his bell rung and people questioned his stand up. Next Cain fought Rothwell and hit that guy with everything but the kitchen sink but couldn’t knock him out. Cain finally learned how to use his power and used in the fights with Nog and Lesnar.
I still believe that Lesnar has room to grow its just going to be much harder for Lesnar to grow because he is most likely not going to be fighting many flawed fighters. I predict that Lesnar’s next fight will be a name fighter like Nelson or Gilbert so he can have a quick and easy win.
"I was not impressed by your performance"
They'll toss him a win
but that isn’t going to change the fact that even as Brock improves, Cain has grown tremendously each fight, and will continue to do so. And he’s younger, in better shape.
Tell me why whenever I spoke of his inexperience all the Lennar’s’ fans would call me on it, saying he’s a tremendously gifted athlete who’s been doing nothing but training for the past years and can whoop anyone’s ass in the HW department and is the best eva?
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Can't speak for everyone, and
I don’t recall if I called the fight publicly on here, but I will say now that I severely overestimated Brock’s abilities…fortunately for my wallet, I held out on betting this one.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks for being honest :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I tend to have sometimes overly strong opinions, but when I’m wrong I’ll be the first to own it.
I think I was so caught up in the combination of the size/strength/speed of Lesnar mixed in with his NCAA career and his UFC career prior to Carwin that I overlooked the fact that if MMA has taught us nothing else, it is that skill and technique trump size and strength almost every time.
Yes, everything else being equal, bet on the big guy, but everything else is never equal…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Lulz...
Glorified gatekeeper, here I come…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 4:04 AM EDT up reply actions
How utterly predictable.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 24, 2010 1:43 AM EDT reply actions
Totally
Oh you meant the article?
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Oct 24, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
LOL
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
suck it up subo.
Brock looked like crap for the second time in a row.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
I know they have a little dicked quarterback.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 24, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
ROTFLMFAO
How is this not green?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I just have to.....
Snowden, just because your wife said ‘not to worry honey, he had a little dick’…doesn’t mean it was true…
by Anothermmafan on Oct 24, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions
he’s a grower not a shower
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
We'll have to
take your word for that one…;p
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
The UFC cannot afford fo Brock to lose 2 fights straight
while Brock is very good at hyping fights, 2 losses in a row would definitely hurt him. The UFC must have a good comeback fight for Brock, say Shaub, Loser of Shane/Roy or Big Nog (most likely). If Brock loses again, I can see two things happening. a.) Brock continues fighting while steadily decreasing his market value or b.) A frustrated Brock leaves the sport, both of which are going to have a huge impact financially for the UFC.
Pro-wrestling and MMA: I have the best of both worlds.
Brock against Nog
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I actually love that fight
and that would mean a second loss for Lesnar :p
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
I seriously think Nog still has a few years of war left in him, he got KO’d by two people only (nevermind how messed up he was in the first KO from illness), many fighters were able to come back from those types of losses. Big Nog has the game to beat Lesnar, that would be awesome for me as a Big Nog fan!
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Could be Nog
I’d guess Lesnar – Mir 3 is more likely…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 24, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Snowden could have written “The Beaner beat the wrestling Faker and I called it LOL LOL LOL” and he would have only taken heat for about 3 seconds…because anyone that’s reading these comments would be thinking “Wow, this S.C. Michaelson guy is a tardface. Go Snowden!”
Seriously ex-champ, you sound really fucking dumb right now. The chairshot argument in particular.
http://www.instrength.com
You don't even understand what I'm saying, so how can you call it dumb?
You think I’m trying to show that as some measure of his chin. Which I am not. Only in his willingness to take shots. FURTHERMORE, no more than 10 minutes later in response to anothermmafan, I conceded the point. Yet people still continue to harp.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
If ya don’t say dumb shit, ya don’t get harped. Lesson 5, it’s in the internet handbook. Look it up.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Oct 24, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't have the power to edit erroneous headlines
or make people who’s posts point out my errors/disagree with me disappear
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ll repeat myself -
If you don’t say stupid shit, there’s no need for an edit button. Thanks though, it’s been entertaining at least. Watching you flush your cred down the toilet is amusing, I’ll give you that.
http://www.instrength.com
LOL if you say so
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm more of a percussionist
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Glockenspiel for the win
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I've gotten ahead of myself and said some stupid shit before
It happens to everybody. But you call yourself Black Lesnar and are polarizing on purpose. Just take it for the night man.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Like I said above...I love it.
Gimme some more.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 5:37 AM EDT up reply actions
reading all your posts in this thread...
you read like a guy who is having a hard time accepting reality.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
Reading all your posts on the site
You seem like a prick
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with Lesnar, maybe, is that he’s too far removed from his competitive wrestling days. The guys straight out of wrestling, when hit, go straight for the takedown and often get it. Lesnar doesn’t do that, he backs up and sort of runs away.
But we saw that against Mir in their second match. When Mir started landing combos, Brock definitely panicked. It was more subtle than Cain and Carwin, but it was certainly there. I believe that if Brock keeps at it he can overcome his fear of getting hit and become the champ again, but it’s the kind of thing that probably comes with experience.
FWIW, I think that Cain will probably beat JDS and lose to Shane Carwin. But Shane’s gonna have to come in really good shape.
When do you think Cain defends his belt against Cigano?
Pro-wrestling and MMA: I have the best of both worlds.
Wrong heart.
He lacks the desire to give up Minnesota and his home gym. He needs to haul his ass to Arizona or So Cal or Vegas and join a real gym and spend all year there. He needs to be pushed to work on his weaknesses. He needs to suffer.
He’s got more money than he could ever spend, a beautiful wife, and he can hunt and fish every day for the rest of his life. How anyone can truly push themselves and get better in that environment is beyond me.
by Ironbuddha on Oct 24, 2010 2:34 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
No. Brock needs to go overseas and get in a Thai gym or go learn kickboxing
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 24, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions
That wouldn't be the worst idea ever, that's for sure.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 24, 2010 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Cover up...
He would just cover up and run during training…what’s the point?
lulz
I thought bringing in Pat Barry was going to save the day.
Face it. brendan schaub is right. Hammer house 2.0
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
What Brock needs
is to go over to the AKA gym and beg Cain to train with him, lol.
I do agree that it might be good for him to go up against some good kickboxers and get out of his element. I love Brock, but I think that Dana’s comment about Frank’s heart certainly applied to Brock here too.
Come back stronger, you brute Viking, you!
If anyone reads articles from shootafairone.wordpress.com
it’s a great boxing/fighting website and yesterday he wrote:
“If you can’t take the pressure and pain of getting hit in the face, try still not to turn your back and cower away.”
I know this is way late
And kind of bullshit, but basically Brock is not a fighter. He’s tough, and he’s athletic, and he’s great behind a mic, but he just doesn’t have that fighter’s mentality. You can call it instinct, you can call it heart, you can call it grit, but in the end he doesn’t have it. Bj, for all of Snowden’s points against him, has it in spades. Brock wants to be a fucking fighter, but isn’t a fucking fighter. That’s just that.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
by Neil Manich on Oct 24, 2010 4:03 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
This is a good point
And I will point out one further. I think tonight was the 1st time Brock faced a real fighter!
Ummm, no
You may not like Frank Mir, but he’s certainly a fighter. Ditto Herring, who is a tough, if not terribly skilled guy, and Randy Coture is not only a fighter but an all time great.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 24, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
But you wont change my mind, you of course can believe whatever you wish. I think history will show that he never really faced anyone that was not afraid of him and had the proven skills to be truly confident in a victory, until Cain.
You think Carwin was afraid of Brock?
You’re not making sense. Saying Randy freaking couture isn’t a real fighter is ridiculous and indefensible.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 24, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good post J-Sno. Agreed, but as someone else pointed out I think it’s more his instincts that are lacking (fight or flight), maybe not the heart as such. This is the second fight in a row where he has reacted extremely poorly to getting hit, tumbling around the ring and just covering up on the ground. Looks like he’s just panicking, not a good thing.
I had predicted Cain 3rd round TKO, almost right. Looking forward to JDS fight, should be a war. Hopefully Overeem can come into the UFC and school both these guys sometime in the future.
by Horselover Fat on Oct 24, 2010 10:48 AM EDT reply actions
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