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Is Brock Lesnar's Heart the Big Question Mark Going Into UFC 121?

Brock Lesnar did not like getting hit by Shane Carwin. Photo via UFC.com

Dan Wetzel described the darkest moment of Brock Lesnar's title reign against Shane Carwin at UFC 116:

Initially, though, Lesnar didn't handle Carwin's blasts very well. He backed up in a crouching, defensive posture that allowed Carwin to attack without fear of counter punch. Carwin eventually knocked Lesnar to the ground and unleashed a pounding that came very close to knocking the champ out.

It was an understandable reaction. Carwin punches like a mule kicks. No one else had ever survived the first round with him. All of Lesnar's training - he worked on circling out of trouble and counter-attacking to gain some recovery time - went out the window.

The bad news for all the contenders to Lesnar's belt is that he isn't likely to make the same mistake again.

That's where I have to part ways with Mr. Wetzel's otherwise excellent analysis. Brock Lesnar didn't make a mistake against Shane Carwin, he had an instinctive reaction to turtle up when he got hit. That's one of those fight or flight moments and Brock's instinct was flight.

Lesnar's recovery on the ground was incredible and showed great heart, grit and resilience, but the impression I came away from Lesnar vs Carwin was of a heavyweight champion who not only doesn't like getting hit hard in the face, he ducks and cowers.

Cain Velasquez said as much on ESPN:

"In the stand-up against Shane Carwin, (Brock Lesnar) didn't look too comfortable. I know (Brock) wants to take the fight to the ground, so we've devised a game plan around that."     

Furthermore, Carwin never even landed a really clean shot on Lesnar's chin. It wasn't one of those "anyone would have been knocked out by that on the button punch" moments, it was a moment where Lesnar got a taste of Carwin's power and declined to have a second helping. That's a perfectly normal instinctive reaction, but it shows a certain mental vulnerability in a heavyweight champion. 

Cain Velasquez' training partner and decorated wrestler Daniel Cormier zooms in on Lesnar's mental make up and tells MMA Junkie what he thinks the key for Velasquez will be:

On Saturday, Cormier says fans will get a good look at Lesnar's limits. The key, he says, is not in the punches that nearly stopped the champion in the first round of his most recent fight against Carwin, but rather the takedown attempts Lesnar missed.

"What took his confidence is when Carwin defended his takedowns at the beginning of the fight," Cormier said. "You have to find a way to drain his confidence, and I think the way to do that is by defending his takedowns. If you stop a few of them, hopefully he starts thinking in the back of his mind, 'OK, what do I do considering that this is going to be a standup fight?'

"You give a guy a reason to doubt. When you do that, it's always an up."

Cormier knows that Velasquez has nothing comparable to Carwin's power. In fact you could argue that Cain's power is no greater than Frank Mir's. But Cormier still saw something in the Carwin fight he liked: a Brock Lesnar who wilts under pressure. 

In the full entry we'll look at some stats and fight breakdowns from Fight Metric and a couple of animated gifs that make the case that Lesnar is anything but an unstoppable take down machine. If Cormier and I are right, will Lesnar get frustrated and wilt if he can't put Velasquez on his back?

Ufc_121_event_button_medium

Star-divide

Here's Fight Metric's breakdown of the grappling portion of Brock Lesnar's UFC 87 bout with Heath Herring -- not a man who's ever been considered a wrestling technician:

Lesnarherringstats_medium

Here's an animated gif of Herring evading Brock's take down:

Fjkqht_jpg_mediumThis is early in the second round. Lesnar had battered Herring standing in the first round and taken him down once where he controlled Herring for the rest of the round. Here we see Lesnar fire off a 1-2 punch combination, less to connect as to set up his shot for the double leg take down. It appears that when Herring fired a body kick and pulled his left leg back afterward that it threw off Lesnar's shot as he seems to reach for the far leg and fail to get it. Switching to a single leg would seem the logical alternative but instead Lesnar pushes Herring back against the cage for a second bite at the double leg apple. Herring is able to pummel his hands underneath both of Lesnar's arms and even threatens a guillotine which forces Lesnar to pull away. Not a huge disaster for Lesnar, just the first time in his MMA career that he shot for a take down and didn't get it.

Obviously Lesnar had no problem beating Herring in the rest of the fight and thoroughly dominated the wrestling in their bout. But it is telling to look at the first time in his MMA career that Brock Lesnar shot in for a take down and didn't get it -- against a man with no notable wrestling pedigree no less.

Now let's look at how Lesnar fared against a wrestler with comparable, if inferior,  wrestling credentials to his own, Shane Carwin. Here's the Fight Metric analysis of the grappling portion of their fight:

Carwinlesnarstats_medium

It's important to note that while he was fresh in the first round, Carwin stuffed all of Lesnar's take downs. It was only when lactic acidosis struck him down in the second that Shane became another Lesnar victim. 

Here's a gif of one of those stuffed take downs:

21dr1w2_medium

This is ninety seconds into the fight, before Carwin really connected cleanly with punches. Brock steps forward and appears to be chambering his right arm to throw a punch but Carwin steps into it and beats him to the punch with a right hand of his own. Lesnar immediately ducks down and goes for the double leg take down but only manages to get a hold of Carwin's left leg. 

Rather than working for underhooks, Carwin gets an overhook with his right arm and is able to transition to a whizzer that plants both men face down on the mat. Very impressive MMA wrestling by Shane Carwin and a big part of his very dominant first round over Brock Lesnar. 

And here's where it got ugly for Brock:

R2rp75_jpg_medium

A short thirty seconds later (or a very long thirty seconds for Brock Lesnar) we see Carwin beginning to clip Lesnar. Note that none of the shots is a clean kill shot, rather Lesnar ducks and covers as soon as Carwin begins to fire left uppercuts. This is an incredibly poor reaction in a combat sport. It reminds me of Bob Sapp when Mirko Filipovic broke his orbital. 

I am not convinced you can train an athlete to resist having this kind of reaction to a painful blow. Lesnar is game though once he recovers and tries to get a clinch and fire off a knee to the body and then immediately shoots for a second double leg attempt. This time Carwin gets double underhooks, puts his hips way back and easily shrugs it off. From there he continued to batter Lesnar and dropped an utterly cowed Lesnar to the floor. 


 

The big question is whether or not Cain Velasquez offers anything offensively that will cause Lesnar to panic if he can't put Cain on his back. That's a very big if. Lesnar may very well be faster, he definitely has a reach advantage and probably hits harder than Cain. 

But Daniel Cormier is onto something, if Cain can force Brock out of "bully mode" and frustrate his offense, it will be his title to take. 


 

 


Comment 159 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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When I read what Cormier wrote, it’s almost like he is thinking about a strategy he would use against Brock rather than what he expects Velasquez to do.

I think Brock has got to put it on Cain, early and often, if he lets Cain establish his gameplan I think it will be a long shitty night for Brockasaurus.

He did seem to wilt quite a bit, but in retrospect it’s hard to tell if it was some kind of last minute plan of rope-a-dope that he got lucky with, or if he just reacts erratically to getting punched in the face.

by DirtyML on Oct 20, 2010 6:08 PM EDT reply actions  

that's an excellent point

and Berry hits and kicks DAMN hard.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

But what gives us the indication that Barry has more power than Velasquez? I don’t recall ever seeing Barry KO someone with 1 punch. Did he in K-1?

by Str8_right on Oct 21, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is such a big thing that Lesnar was training his body back into shape as much (if not more) than training specifically for Carwin. People keep overlooking that, but it’s very much a factor.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 21, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're partially correct here..

It was the flight or fight syndrome..

Only because Lesnar truly worried about Shanes power, the doubt from the long lay-off, the doubt from truly recovering from the illness..

As Brock has pointed out in several interviews. It was a huge confidence booster for him. And the part about making the same mistakes twice is an accurate assessment here too. Brock has never made the same mistakes twice.

While his reaction to the hit was instinctive (at that time). I’m sure he’s worked on circling out properly and focused more on his defense than his offense with this camp. I honestly don’t think he fears Cain’s power and thinks he could eat a couple to get in close and drag him down.. That wasn’t the case with Carwin..

I think it’s more about his self-confidence at this point than anything else. We have to remember that Barry and del Rosario weren’t brought in to make Brock a better striker. They were brought in to make Brock more comfortable on his feet taking exchanges and sharpening his timing for the shots and counters..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:12 PM EDT reply actions  

He didn't fear exchanging with..

Mir, Couture, or Herring.. He was willing to stand if need be. And we also have to remember that in the second Mir fight. The game plan wasn’t to go to the ground with Mir.. The original game plan was Brock to stand with Mir and use his reach to mimic the first fight.. It just so happened that Mir initiated the first TD going for the knee bar in the clinch scramble..

The second TD was a result of Lesnar instinctively going for the double when he ate the knee..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Finally an accurate depiction of the Lesnar/Carwin fight

Great article Nate!

And Cain does not have the power to do freak Brock out. Lesnar beats Cain via GNP in round 2

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Oct 20, 2010 6:14 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I still think Cain is winning, because he's better all around

But this is going to be a tough, back and forth fight. I hope Brock wins.

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Oct 20, 2010 6:18 PM EDT reply actions  

This was awesome, great work, Nate! The 3rd gif could use some comedic music because Brock looks hilarious there. lol

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 20, 2010 6:25 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not sold on Brock's mental weakness

Banking on that could be a fatal mistake

by dex1 on Oct 20, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Hes not mentally weak. He just doesn’t like getting hit in the face, hard.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 20, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

But then again..

Who really likes getting hit in the face hard ?? lol

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is true.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 20, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Akiyama? Cabbage?

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 20, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leben ???

lol

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn’t seem to enjoy it when Anderson was doing it.

by ufc4 on Oct 20, 2010 6:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No.. you're wrong.. lol

He just didn’t know it was happening for him to enjoy it.. lol

He was out !!

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forrest, Anderson Silva, Leben, Junie.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Oct 20, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also to say Brock never ate a clean shot worth noting...

This demonstrates a solid blow right on the square of the jaw.. Judging by the angle and knowing that Brock’s head had nowhere to go.. I’d say this shot was one of the more powerful shots he took on the chin..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:27 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I'm talking about during the time they spent on their feet

he actually held up better on his back taking hard shots like that than he did on his feet getting clipped and grazed.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I know..

I was just pointing this out in general.. Not directed at your post specifically..

I think he was truly scared of Carwin’s power (and for good reason). I think that’s why he reacted the way he did. I don’t think he has that same fear for Cain though.. I certainly didn’t with Randy, Mir, or Herring..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

even on the ground he took very few shots to the face from Carwin. Most of those punches were hitting him in the arms.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Oct 20, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

While some were,

Others were finding his face. And the way Carwin Hits, im sure it hurt either way. The fight wasnt stopped for a reason, everytime Ref asked if he was ok Brock would respond with yes and move or push him off (which you can actually hear when you watch the fight). It doesnt matter how many shots he did take, HE DID take some shots that if someone else is in there, im sure wouldnt have scrambled and finish carwin the Way Brock did.

Funny thing is, Brock passed to full mount with ease, and with the completely gassed out Carwin with nothing left in his body laying underneath him practically helpless, Brock could’ve just unleashed his Mean ground and pound and pounded Carwin into a pulp and have the fight stopped there, Knowing Carwin didnt have enough energy to get brock off the top of him. If brock did that, this discussion about carwin wouldnt even be happening – “oh he just ran like a girl and survived to luckily choke out the gassed carwin”. It would be about how Brock wins via Homocide once again.

He’s evolving as a fighter, shows how much hard work is paying off. I think a lot of people will be very surprised come saturday…

by xMMAxTYSONxMMA on Oct 20, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

That wasn't really clean

Watch Shane’s elbow. It hits Brock’s forearm on the way down and gets redirected.

The cleaner shot happened later when Rogan said, “He is teeing off.”

by Mint on Oct 21, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the question is just the physicality

I think Brock gets lit up on the feet but the clincher is whether Cain’s able to keep off his back and I don’t see Lactor being the fourth man in the cage this time for Brock.

"One thing I will never do is I will never say never." -Dana White

by Symbul on Oct 20, 2010 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

We'll find out soon enough

I have no idea who to bet on lol

by dex1 on Oct 20, 2010 6:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Velasquez lacks the tools to take advantage of Carwin's gameplan

Brock didn’t wilt under just any kind of pressure, he wilted under nasty, violent punching power, which Cain lacks.

One would assume that Brock’s collegiate background prepared him extremely well to face the sort of grappling pressure that Cain can apply.

I think Velasquez has a good chance of winning based on his cardio and skill set, but I will bet my entire bankroll that he doesn’t take away Brock’s will.

If Brock wins I think JDS has the kind of punching power that could test Brock’s heart and chin, if he can stay standing, that is.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Oct 20, 2010 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Even after the JDS-Nelson fight?

You’re right about keeping it standing though. I think Lesnar-JDS is going to look a lot like Lesnar-Mir II.

by Sqwibbs on Oct 20, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way, JDS is wayyyyyyyy more aggressive than Mur and his Boxing is way better.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 20, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

JDS boxing = best in HW UFC.. period

That kid could walk into pro boxing right now and be successful against that’s sports top guys..He would be very competitive to say the least..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a huge JDS fan and think he’s the best HW in the UFC. However, nobody knows how well he’d do in pro boxing where there are so many differences.

Moreover, he’d be a moron to be in the UFC if he could be a top boxer where the pay would be over 10x as high.

by Mint on Oct 21, 2010 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pay 10x as high ??

Not unless his last name is Mayweather, Pacquiao or De La Hoya..

The Klitschko Brothers don’t make 10 x as much as Lesnar… The only “big money” earners in boxing that you’re refering to are all in the lighter divisions now.. Nobody really cares about the HW division in boxing because there are no more dominate power punching champions.. Lennox Lewis was the last dominate HW champ.. Now they have belts spread out all over the place and none of the champs will fight each other..

The Klitschko’s wont fight each other and Haye turned down a fight against both of them this year..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 21, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the word you're looking for is...

…“dominant”. Don’t mean to be a grammar Nazi, but that’s a pet peeve of mine.

And also, using Lesnar as a baseline for UFC salary is a bad example, considering he’s one of the top earners.

None more gangster.

by alicks on Oct 21, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

That $8 million or more they make for fights sure isn’t bad money…

Haye pulled out of the fight, he didn’t turn it down. He has had fights scheduled against both brothers and pulled out of both fights.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 21, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I'm not disputing his boxing ability.

His technique is great, but if he couldn’t put Nelson away with his boxing, he’s unlikely to put Lesnar away with it. Not that it matters, because Lesnar will take him down very soon in the fight.

by Sqwibbs on Oct 20, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree about Lesnar looking to take him down quick..

But it’s more a testament to Roy’s toughness than his lack of power or striking..

He never landed flush like he did against Yvel, Gonazaga, or Werdum.. He landed a bunch of solid shots though..

His foot work, his angles, speed, and his timing are very high level even for pro HW boxers.. I bet inside a year he could be very successful in that sport had he chose to. He got a natural talent for it.. He needs work on his head movement and hand position.. but the rest is fundamentally there already..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

People need to slow down w/ the JDS pro boxing talk

Hes got great boxing for MMA & alot of natural talent but he’d get waxed by any decent heavyweight boxer. Lets not create another Arlovski

by ddub83 on Oct 20, 2010 7:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah because the Klitschko brothers are so dangerous.. lol

He would be very successful as a HW boxer and very competitive with the top 3 (Klitschko brothers & Haye)..

None of them are HW power punchers.. Most of their fights go to the later rounds anyways..

 

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

While agree that the heavyweights in boxing are crap right now

My point more or less is its ridiculous to think that just because a guys hands look good in MMA that he can just jump head first into boxing & dominate. Its two different animals when you talk MMA boxing & straight boxing especially @ the elite, well as elite as it gets right now, level

by ddub83 on Oct 20, 2010 8:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

*While I agree

by ddub83 on Oct 20, 2010 8:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's not that they're crap..

There just isn’t anyone that stands out ahead of the pack as a dominate HW in boxing..

The Klitschko brothers mainly rely on their size and reach advantages.. Neither are aggressive in terms of risking anything in a fight.. They fight to “not lose”…

But JDS is a rare talent.. MMA or otherwise in terms of Boxing.. He’s a natural talent. His aggressive attacking style, the angles, the speed, and the footwork all illustrate that he could be very competitive with todays HW boxing landscape.. I never said he would be a world champion.. I said he would be successful and very competitive with the top guys right now.. He needs a few teaks in head movement and hand placement for example.. but the rest of his game is fundamentally sound at the pro level for boxers..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Klitschko brothers mainly rely on their size and reach advantages.. Neither are aggressive in terms of risking anything in a fight.. They fight to "not lose"…

Why do they such ridiculous KO ratios if all they do is fight for a decision?

www.mmalinker.com

by exsanguinator on Oct 20, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You do realize the majority of those KO's are in the "later rounds" ?

They don’t risk much.. They pick guys apart and wear them down.. They’re not dynamic power punchers..

 

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats like noting GSP is risk averse and rarely goes for the kill. What does that mean for the opposition? Utter domination and virtually no chance for them to win. Fighting like that makes it that much harder for someone to beat you.

When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON

-Joell Ortiz

by The Lethal Haze on Oct 20, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the real, JDS wouldn’t even be able to hit one of the Klitchkos flush, ever. If its not a UD win for one of the K Bros, then its a TKO in the later rounds. They have a height and a reach advantage, and are particularly good at using it. Its nearly impossible to hit one in the face, or to get close enough to hit them in the body…

And Haye is known as a power puncher btw…

When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON

-Joell Ortiz

by The Lethal Haze on Oct 20, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was refering to the Klitch bros..

Haye just got lumped in because he was top three..

More or less I’m saying he is talented enough right now to be successful as a HW boxer and can be competitive with even the top three..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is wrong

The state of MMA boxing is what makes JDS look so good. He would get demolished by Top 10 boxers on their own turf.

He is a great athlete, I give him a good chance to be an MMA champ one day, his striking is probably the best in the UFC HW division – in short: he is a tremendous athlete. Why can’t that be enough for people? No, all the time there’s this “he could hang with the best boxers”-stuff coming up. But he could not. According to Freddie Roach and himself, not even Anderson Silva could.

If JDS had chosen a boxing career maybe he could’ve been great there too. But he didn’t. And to succeed in such a specialized art you don’t get away with the kind of limited training-exposure an MMA-fighter has to boxing.

To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.

by KGNLuc on Oct 21, 2010 4:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

JDS boxing > Anderson Silva boxing

In a pure boxing environment.. The guy could be very successful just based on his natural skills as is. I never said he would dominate and be a world champion.. I said he would be successful against today’s level in HW boxing. He’s more than capable of competing at that level..

Freddy Roach also said Andrie Arlovski would smoke Fedor because of Fedor’s bad boxing..

He’s a boxing coach.. And while the style are different, the fundamentals are not.. Both BJ and JDS are “very fundamentally” sound in their technique.. They could very easily transition to boxing and be successful there. They only need minor adjustments in certain areas.. Where as someone like Liddell would never have success on a consistent basis because his mechanics and fundamentals are just not there..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 21, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

They fight to "not lose"

And boy, is it ever working!

by Tedd Welch on Oct 20, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boy is your assessment of the Klitschkos wrong...

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 21, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m agree with you about Roy’s toughness. I think that Brock is just as tough as Roy though. If this was a boxing match, JDS would win for sure. However, I don’t think JDS will be able to stop Brocks take downs, and I think that Brock will employ a similar TD+Halfguard+headlock+meat tenderizer tactic that he used against Mir. And probably just as effectively.

by Sqwibbs on Oct 20, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem with JDS' boxing to my eyes

is that his defense isn’t at the same level his combinations are. He was getting hit hard by a rocked, tired Roy Nelson. That’s not particularly relevant to a JDS-Lesnar I wouldn’t think but it remains that he seems quite hittable.

"One thing I will never do is I will never say never." -Dana White

by Symbul on Oct 20, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely agree

I love me some JDS, but I think someone like Overeem would expose his defense in a heartbeat…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am a huge fan of JDS, but he keeps his hands dangerously low. He has a very good chin, but he is very hittable. For those reasons alone, I do not think that JDS would do well against top level boxers.

Check out MMA For You at http://www.youtube.com/user/Gobusiness123 for MMA reviews, predictions, and analysis.

by chrisbboy82 on Oct 21, 2010 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's why I said he only needs to work on..

His head movement and hand placement.. The rest of his skills are very fundamentally sound.. His offensive boxing is very high level..

He just needs to work on his defensive positioning with head movement and hand placement..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 21, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those parts are very hard to get though especially putting your hands back to your face/head after throwing punches. It entails a lot actually like throwing a punch and making sure that the hand not throwing a punch is close to your face among other things. Despite being relatively young but having thirteen fights, I have to wonder how much of putting his hands low and lack of head movement is becoming habit for him. However, it is not inconceivable for him to learn these things, all I’m saying is that it is difficult, but definitely not impossible.

Check out MMA For You at http://www.youtube.com/user/Gobusiness123 for MMA reviews, predictions, and analysis.

by chrisbboy82 on Oct 21, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. Brock will take JDS down within the first 30 seconds and it will be all over.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Oct 20, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

JDS hasn't been effectively taken down or controlled yet.

I’m not saying it can’t happen, but Brock is going to have his hands full trying to ground him for any length of time. The Nelson fight showed me more about Roy’s toughness and Junior’s adaptability than it did about Junior’s power. He is still a one-punch KO threat, and a guy who hits hard enough to make legendary badass Mirko CroCop quit on his feet.

Suffice to say, I’m hoping Brock wins, so that the guy who is fast becoming my favorite fighter gets a crack at taking him down.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Oct 20, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

JDS hasn't fought a wrestler...

I agree, JDS is definitely a good striker and he is definitely dangerous on his feet. I think that the JDS-Nelson fight proved that he doesn’t have the kind of power that Carwin packs, but that he has much better technique. I think that fight also showed that JDS needs to work on his cardio.

Honestly, the win over CroCop is not that impressive. I think that Roy Nelson or Brendan Schuab would beat CroCop at this point.

by Sqwibbs on Oct 20, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't just beat CroCop

he beat him into a verbal submission by way of strikes. His KOs of Gonzaga and Werdum are also amazing. And while he hasn’t faced a wrestler, he has been in against high level grapplers who wanted to take him down and weren’t able to do so.

I think it will be a tough fight for JDS, but he definitely has the power to put Brock in deep waters.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Oct 20, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You could also look at Lesnar-Carwin and say that it shows that Carwin doesn’t have the power that Carwin packs.

"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."

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"Shoot him again... his soul is still dancing!"

by Ephemeral Artery on Oct 20, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

except that Carwin turtled Lesnar… which JDS did not do to Nelson…

by Sqwibbs on Oct 20, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

save that one for Carwin vs Velasquez

unless Carwin gets himself cut first.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

thankfully for Carwin, Roy Nelson isn’t the fighter to help the UFC send him out the door.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13

by Noah'sArk on Oct 20, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know about that.

If Big Country can absorb five minutes of fury, I think he stands a very good chance to take advantage of Carwin’s awful cardio.

by Steve4192 on Oct 20, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be so fantastic

Roy “The Tub of Lard” Nelson defeats Shane “The Brick Shithouse” Carwin by TKO (Exhaustion)

Oh, I love it. Nelson’s cardio isn’t half-bad, neither.

by Tedd Welch on Oct 20, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nelson's cardio is better than "isn't half-bad."

He’s got a great gas tank. JDS just punched some holes in it and it leaked a little. Dude was hurt.

And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.

by James Brady on Oct 21, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

brocks gonna come in

clip cain then take him down and punish him

2nd round he finishes it, looks dominant and this website is gonna do a complete 180 and be asking if hes the best UFC hw ever

cains a great fighter but he doesnt throw with power, is too small, and too weak to stand up to brock

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Oct 20, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't say he's too small or too weak..

He may not have the power of Carwin in his hands.. But he is far from weak.

I do agree with the rest though… :)

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

And he appears weak in comparison to Lesnar, Carwin or JDS…even Kongo muscled him around a little iirc.

His weight concerns me, as he was an already somewhat soft 238 I believe, and now he is 250+? Even if its all muscle, and it can’t be, his cardio may not be what its reputed to be now.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

hes 250?

thats not particularly good for him, i see him winning by stick and move (which is a strategy i only see working if brock slows) by trying to fight brock strength to strength and take him head on and wrestle with him i see him getting his ass beat

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan

by milk72 on Oct 20, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is what I read somewhere on here this week

Can’t recall if it was 250 or 252, but either way… IMO, Cain has a fair chance of winning, but only if he follows the Edgar vs. BJ plan. Even so, if he has added weight over such a relatively short (and recent) period, even if it were all muscle, is going to diminish his cardio to some degree.

I keep hearing how off the charts his cardio is, but he has seemingly slowed down considerably at least against Kongo, and a grappling match against a bigger, stronger guy will drain anyone far more than normal.

It really would not surprise me to see Cain slow before Brock does, all things considered…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not so much his heart

It’s more like his willingness to take a punch and this has been a question mark that I’ve held to Brock since the Randy fight. I think a lot of people confuse “having a bad chin” with “doesn’t like getting hit” and I believe this may apply to Brock.

As the Carwin fight demonstrated he has a good chin, but he really doesn’t seem to like getting hit, and he can risk putting himself in a bad position against a more enduring and quicker opponent like Cain.

by SchruteBoxe on Oct 20, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions  

To some degree I wonder if he’s simply not used to being punched in the face. Takes some getting used to, particularly when you go into a fight truly fearing the other guy’s punching power. Cain doesn’t have the punching power that Carwin possesses. I’m not even a big fan of either guy, but all this talk about Cain “outworking” Brock sounds like vague, weak delusion. I think Cain may be in for a rude awakening when Brock outworks him, matching him with speed and cardio, and with greater strength, deep into the fight.

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 20, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats what im saying

Wreslters always have good cardio and the way that Brock works out, i would bet his cardio is going to be outstanding. All this talk about his Cardio, and the kind of guy Brock is? I think Brock will be coming into this fight looking to prove something.

Everyone said that Mir would submit Brock again, what does brock do? Work 110% on the ground and we saw the very decorated ground game artist get manhandled, Just so he could shut everything Mir said about what Arm or Leg he would break. All this talk about taking him to the later rounds…..What if thats where he wants to go? Imagine the first round of the Mir fight in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounds when Cain starts getting tired of having to defending a Gorilla Takedown. This could be an ugly night for both fighters but for all this hype about the Cain Train and his “otherwordly” Cardio, i dont know about that. Either way, this fight will shut alot of people up, and i cant wait to see who its going to be..

by xMMAxTYSONxMMA on Oct 20, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock was breathing pretty heavy against Randy. If Randy survived to the 3rd I reckon he would have taken over from there.

by MMAussie on Oct 20, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was Brocks 4th fight.

Cain looked Dramatically slower in the 3rd round against Kong. KONGO! And Kongo even took Cain down. If he can’t put Kongo away and also get taken down by Kongo, I reckon he will take Cain over.

by xMMAxTYSONxMMA on Oct 20, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is true, but he’s a a lot leaner and more seasoned than he was then. Cain has never been in that kind of fight. Dominating Rothwell and Kongo doesn’t mean much at all. If Cain had a way to finish this, I’d like his chances better, but I’ve seen zero from him as a submission artist, and I can’t see him knocking Brock out either.

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 20, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

And also,

HE threw like 200 unanswered clean shots strait to the Face of Rothwell. Rothwell Wasn’t even knocked out or going out IMO. In fact, just before the Stoppage, Cain has him up against the Fence pounding him in the face and Rothwell decides not to block but instead just put his hand down on the Mat and push himself to his feet before Steve Mazzaggati, the worst ref in MMA, to stop the fight. Im not sold on Cains power just yet…

by xMMAxTYSONxMMA on Oct 20, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah at the end of the day this could be a real slopfest. More of an athletic competition than a display of skill. I can’t pick Cain over Brock in such a context until I see him do it. Cain’s kickboxing is better, but not amazing, and he may not have a lot of chances to do real damage.

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 20, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I worry a little about

Brock being overconfident in his chin after the Carwin fight and expecting to be able to walk through Cain’s punches. Cain may not have Carwin’s power, or even Kongo’s, but he has fast hands and is accurate – one square on the button from almost any UFC HW puts you out…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair concern..

But not likely that Brock is going to get in a standing firefight.. All he has to do is stand long enough to bait Cain ..

More concerning should be that Brock eat a knee trying to shoot a power double.. Cain has very good timing as well and Cain can easily fake a punch to get Brock to commit the shot and then look to time a heavy knee..

I think Brock will be conservative in the first round.. Sort of play it safe and see what Cain gives him.. Then open up more in the second.. If he gets Cain down I look for him to keep a wide base and look to control Cain’s hips rather than open up with GNP right away.. Try to see what Cain does with him on top.. Maybe bait Cain into scrambling to wear himself down..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree

with everything you just said.

by Sqwibbs on Oct 20, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

As do I

IMO, Cains only potential path to victory is via an Edgar-style game plan, but even that is predicated on him being significantly quicker and faster than Brock as well as having significantly better cardio – and I am of the opinion that neither is going to be the case.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Cain is quicker than Brock..

And if he is, it isn’t a significant difference that will stand out. Anyone can be caught though..

I think the training with Barry and del Rosario should have helped him A LOT in terms of getting his timing down to counter any strikes Cain might want to throw..

Cain isn’t faster or a better striker than either of Lesnar’s striking training partners. IF he is comfortable enough to stand and got his timing down in this camp. He should easily be the odds on favorite. He has a 5 inch reach advantage, bigger, stronger, more powerful, and I suspect equally (if not faster) as fast..

Usually the odds here will say that size > technique when the majority of it is even across the board.. But that’s why they fight.. I’m more confident for Brock in this fight than I was in the last one with Carwin.. lol

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree

Everyone who has fought Lesnar has been amazed that someone so big could move so fast – both Mir and Randy commented after their fights about it IIRC.

I still think that if Carwin, as much of a d-bag as I personally think he is, can fix his control and gassing issues, he is the one current UFC HW with the tools to potentially beat Brock. But those are big “Ifs”

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say he certainly has all the tools to do it..

I don’t think he’ll get another crack at Lesnar (if Lesnar wins this fight).

I think due to his age and his position within the UFC currently.. I just don’t think he gets another crack at the title. The only way I see that fight happening again is if Lesnar loses to Cain and they need a fight to work him back into the title picture.

It would also not surprise me if this fight is very close that they bypass JDS and go str8 to a Cain vs. Brock 2 is Cain wins.. Lesnar with the strap is good for business..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Cormier has way more to offer Brock than Cain.

As noted, Cain doesn’t have a ton of power. And yeah we can say that the only thing that screwed Carwin was his cardio, but at the same time that just makes Brock vs Cain push. Look at it this way: Cain doesn’t have the power to put Brock out so he would have to stick and move a lot, but at the same time Brock is just going to walk him down and if Cain attempts a kick, Brock’s taking him down.

Cormier has the power in his hands and the wrestling to give Brock a bigger challenge.

by Josh Grant on Oct 20, 2010 6:44 PM EDT reply actions  

NO way

Cain is now a mixed martial artist. Cormier is stil a straight up wrestler. Not a good comparison. Pure wrestling will not beat Brock.
How do you know Cain does not have the power to put brock out??

by Grappling on Oct 20, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can be a straight mixed martial artist all you want,

but Brock has already shown that he can stifle submissions (second Frank Mir fight). And Cain’s only big KO was against Big Nog. Yeah that’s great and all, but look at the wear and tear Nog has taken over his career and his increasing injury rate preventing him from fighting more regularly; the time to KO Nog is right now and that’s what Cain did. Carwin was wrecking Brock with punches (though not perfectly landed ones) and ground n’ pound and couldn’t put him out. Cain simply doesn’t have that power. And again, Cain mixes in kicks a lot. Yeah that could be great to slow Brock down and all but you really think Brock’s not gonna drag Cain to the ground as soon as one leg is in the air?

As Couture and Carwin proved, Brock isn’t a takedown machine and his shot can be stopped. The difference is Cormier still has more tread on his wrestling tires (isn’t that far separated from his wrestling days) and has dynamite power in his hands, that’s the perfect type of guy to take out Brock in my eyes: A guy that can stop the shot, maybe take Brock down, and can fire off for awhile. Then again if Cormier doesn’t have the cardio Brock will hang around if he isn’t bombed out.

by Josh Grant on Oct 20, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why are we talking about a SF Challengers fighter vs Lesnar?

"One thing I will never do is I will never say never." -Dana White

by Symbul on Oct 20, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because Cormier had a lot to say about his training partner, Cain, on his upcoming bout.

And just thought that I’d chime in that Cormier’s words would be better suited for himself against Lesnar than for Cain against Lesnar because he has attributes that I feel would be better suited for fighting Brock than what Cain brings to the table.

by Josh Grant on Oct 20, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

What are we going to do when Brock figures out wall’n’stall? Please God, forbid such a day from occurring.

Did you see the size of that chicken?

by Heenan on Oct 20, 2010 6:55 PM EDT reply actions  

If Brock ever tried to use a wall’n’stall tactic, I reckon it would look a lot like Carwin-Mir.

by MMAussie on Oct 20, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel this is inaccurate

Im no expert but you can train yourself to take harder shots and not wilt under pressure. If its true brock wasnt doing alot of sparring for the shane carwin fight a stiff punch can shock your system. Any one that has done alot of sparring will tell you after you take a few weeks off when returning to the gym you often have an unbeliavable head ache the next day. And on a side bar i dont know that i have ever seen brock gassed why is his cardio in doubt. I just dont see cain winning this on the ground or on his feet.

by ohiomma on Oct 20, 2010 6:59 PM EDT reply actions  

No!

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 7:00 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s got to be the first time anyone has ever punched him that hard, ever. Every other heavyweight that Carwin hit like that melted like the Wicked Witch in a rainstorm. So, he’s got a chin.

Guy could have gone limp at any time and Rosenthal would have stopped the fight. He responded to commands to keep the fight going. If that’s not heart, I don’t know what is.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know what other conclusion one can draw. He earned the respect of friends that still hate him but know he’s not made of paper. He’s not just a hulk, he’s a fighter.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kid nate must be a little kid...

How else can you come up with a premise that Brock handled himself well. You got to be kidding me. Going into the turtle position IS NOT the proper way to handle yourself in that situation.

by Grappling on Oct 20, 2010 7:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, going to your back to block punches with your arms and push away and create distance with your legs is certainly no way to play defense. I’ve never seen that method used, and certainly it isn’t a foundation of some martial art from Brazil.

by Hardcharger on Oct 20, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

No..

Pushing away while you are you back is fine. It’s being stuck in the fetal position that was worrisome.

by Grappling on Oct 20, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll ignore the insulting subject line

and instead attempt to rectify my poor attempt to communicate complex ideas to the reading comprehension impaired.
I said Brock handled himself badly on the feet and well on the ground.
Furthermore what he did on the ground is not turtling up — that would be getting on your hands and knees belly down. Brock went to his back.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evidently, it is

I mean, ’cause he won and everything.

by Tedd Welch on Oct 20, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I had a friend in high school that was on the wrestling team. He would always ambush wrestle people, like take you down from behind or run up and yell “Go” and then try to pin you. I guess to show off that he had wrestling skills or he was just a major dick. Anyway, he never pinned me because I would beat that shit out of him using full nelsons and chokes and elbows and knees and stomps and kicks and he’d always cry “You aren’t supposed to do that in wrestling. It’s illegal.”

Do what works for you.

Death is the Road to Awe

by splint on Oct 21, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

keep dreaming.

"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."

by VelociAldo on Oct 20, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd for...

…Masturbation punches.

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on Oct 20, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jonathan Snowden is unimpressed.
Kid Nate: Only 1 million buys, the sky is falling
Subo BROCKLESNAR!

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Oct 20, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Luke: The Proliferation of Pro Wrestlers in MMA Will Soon Kill the Sport

by ufc4 on Oct 20, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Luke will probably never say the words pro and wrestling consecutively again.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

One more thing im just happy that the ufc is giving us a card we can get excited for.

by ohiomma on Oct 20, 2010 7:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Watch his hips

Like any wrestler, when he lowers his level, i.e. drops his hips, he completes his takedown. When he bull rushes, and his hips never lower, like in the Herring fight, his TD attempts become easier to defend.

Now, MMA technique may dictate one doesn’t lower the hips as much as you would in wrestling to properly defend strikes, but when Brock just runs into his opponents, he usually doesn’t get the TD. In the second round of the Carein fight, watch the last takedown – he lowers his level to finish.

If Brock bull rushes Cain, he could be in big trouble.

"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword

by duck on Oct 20, 2010 7:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Carein = Carwin

Stupid phone

"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword

by duck on Oct 20, 2010 7:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think the problem with Brocks bull rushes into the cage is that he drives all his momentum in a horizontal motion and doesnt do enough to reduce the capability of his opponent’s legs to regain balance. Whereas someone like GSP will rush in and grab them really low before driving into them, so their legs cant regain balance and they tumble backwards.

Brock seems to be using a method where he wants to push them up against the cage and then try to get a double and pull their legs out, reminds me a lot of Sherks style as a wrestler. If he paired this with clinch fighting against the cage like Randy, it would be amazing.

I sincerely hope he does not bullrush Cain, as a fight fan that would be a quick way to catch a punch.

by DirtyML on Oct 20, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he does he might look like King Mo did

In his last fight, when he looked like an amateur wrestlers (and not in the D-1 or Olympics sense of the word amateur)…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

good point

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hips don’t lie.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Velasquez's heart?

This isn’t hating, when Lesnar was dying from a potential hole in his stomach, I had him, Carwin, Velasquez, and Dos Santos set in stone as my favorite HWs, I’ve got no hate for any of them.

But in all of Cain’s fights, like Vera said about Jones, he’s never been the nail, he is all offense, and always dominating.

Yes, he got clipped by Kongo in round 1, instinctively went for the takedown and got it. But Kongo’s wrestling defense is pretty bad, if Lesnar caught him like that, he wouldn’t be able to go into autopilot and get the takedown like that. And in the 2nd round, Kongo hurt him again, but then Kongo tried to take Cain down, and Cain had the wrestling pedigree to reverse it.

We’ve seen Lesnar eat some big shots, get hurt, fall down, and have a guy raining blasts down on him.

And we’ve seen him get up from that.

Will Cain have the same resiliency and will to stay in the fight when he gets hit by a guy with Brock’s power? What happens when Cain gets put on his back? Has Cain ever had an MMA fight with a guy with the wrestling pedigree of Lesnar? Or even a wrestling pedigree at all?

CPG

by Chris Groves on Oct 20, 2010 7:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Jake O'Brien

Was a good wrestler.. Not on the level of Lesnar.. Not even in the same league in size, strength, power, technique.. But a wrestler none the less.. lol

Not saying Cain is going to win either.. I agree with your questions and think that’s why the favor shifts to Brock with the actual advantages..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay then, I wasn't sure

I suspect it was just as dominant a victory as all of Cain’s others? I haven’t seen it.

And like you said, while O’Brian was a wrestler, there’s really no other similarity to Lesnar…O’Brian dropped to 205 and lost to Jon Jones, so he couldn’t have been a big HW.

Basically, Cain hasn’t fought anyone like Lesnar before, Lesnar’s combination of size, speed, and wrestling, in my opinion, is going to be a big problem for Cain to overcome.

CPG

by Chris Groves on Oct 20, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I always thought JDS should have got the shot first, but that does not mean I think Cain doesn’t deserve it.

That being said, I think Cain has fought a lot worse competition than either Brock or JDS and I think Rothwell was probably the best wrestler he fought and that fight was somewhat ugly.

I just want to see Brock hit Cain and see how Cain reacts, that will basically be very telling of how the fight goes. Cain hitting Brock I expect, but as you mentioned Cain gets tagged in his fights and Brock is not the kind of man you want to be giving up chin shots to, regardless of heart.

by DirtyML on Oct 20, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock looked like his confidence disappeared once he ate a shot while standing, but once he was on his back he stayed much more calm. So I’m of two minds.

You are correct that his reaction on his feet is about as bad as it gets but once on his back people are correct in in saying he defended well and even managed to get back to his feet after suffering the definition of a 10-8 beatdown.

So is his mental toughness has both good and bad aspects to it. If he can stay tough cardio and endurance-wise through the later rounds, I think he’ll get more confidence and getting punched while standing won’t freeze him up as badly as it did against Carwin.

by Confucius on Oct 20, 2010 7:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Cain’s only chance of winning is basically a hit and run strategy. If he does just enough to eek out a win on points he may win, but otherwise I think Brock puts him on the ground and destroys him.

I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!

by attgnp on Oct 20, 2010 8:08 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t mean to stir anything up, but I’m really surprised by how invincible people are building Cain up to be. I’m hearing so much about Brock’s flaws, but no one discusses how Cain was nicknamed “pillow hands” before he knocked out Nog. I’m not saying it’s warranted and I think Cain is a great fighter but it seems unfair to me.

by HeroCasey on Oct 20, 2010 8:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Good point

And when he knocked Nog out its not like Nog was anywhere near the top of his game. I love Nog but he is (in MMA years) an old man that is fading very fast. As you said Cain is good, I just don’t see that he has any of the right tools to win this.

I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!

by attgnp on Oct 20, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know, his striking looked to be on another level when he beat Nog. Yeah, Nogueira hasn’t looked like lightning lately but it’s still an accomplishment. But before that win, people were way down on Cain for being unable to finish people. I remember heavy criticisms about the Kongo fight. I think people get kind of wrapped up in Brock-hate.

by HeroCasey on Oct 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

His striking didn’t look bad. But I still think it looked like it did because Nog is in such bad shape. I mean Frank Mir knocked him out. When your getting KO’d by Frank yet years before Fedor couldn’t put him away that tells me there has been a very dramatic decline in not only his chin, but his overall fighting ability.

I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-fucking-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-fuck you!

by attgnp on Oct 20, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you guys watch that replay of Cain vs. Nog

Not that it was a “lucky punch” because no punch is lucky IMO..

But he had his head down and just threw the punch rather than seeing what he was throwing at..

Nog more or less “walked” into that punch with his head and chin straight up and hands below his face trying to throw out of range… It was a poor choice for Nog and a coincidence that Cain threw the upercut because his head was down and he wasn’t exactly aiming that shot …

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was some shitty striking by Nog… and a textbook example of why you snap your hand back to cover your jaw after you throw a jab. He just left his left hand out there doing nothing while he threw the cross.

When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON

-Joell Ortiz

by The Lethal Haze on Oct 20, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

people who nicknamed cain pillow hands

are dumb.

8 wins, 7 finishes, 2 knockouts of the night.

the one time it went to a decision was against kongo, and he put an unholy beating on that guy.

i have no idea where this pillowhands crap is coming from. he may not have the heaviest hands in the division, but when he hits people they feel it.

by Clifford J on Oct 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

a more fair question

is his standup/chin, since kongo tagged him repeatedly (although, like lesnar, he kept coming back).

but to say he doesn’t have power is crazy. to say he can’t finish people is wrong.

by Clifford J on Oct 20, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair to the statement..

look at the amount of punches thrown and landed in each of those fights.. He literally has to put out 5 time more than the average fighter to put guys away..

Those 7 finishes.. 6 of them by TKO from “multiple shots” at a rate of 5 to 1 on average.. That hardly is a display of scary power..

8-29-09

Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..

7-3-10

BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!

by MMAuthority on Oct 20, 2010 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those 7 finishes.. 6 of them by TKO from "multiple shots" at a rate of 5 to 1 on average.. That hardly is a display of scary power..

True enough, but it is certainly a display of effectively wielded power…

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

i hear you

and i don’t mean to be disrespectful to people who have a different opinion.

but at the end of the day he totally kicked the shit out of rothwell and the ref stopped the fight.

it seems like people’s analysis of this fight can be skewed sometimes. these are two guys without many weaknesses going head to head. one of them is going to lose – doesn’t mean whoever does has no heart or pillow hands or whatever.

by Clifford J on Oct 20, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not saying he doesn't hit hard

But compared to most other heavyweight hitters, I don’t think he has insane KO power like Carwin or Dos Santos.

Stojnic wasn’t even a real KO or TKO, he was just punching the hell out of him, while stojnic was totally conscious but not intelligently defending, just kinda turtling, when the ref stopped it, Cain thought the ref was standing the fight up and the ref had to tell him the fight was over.

Rothwell was also a bad stoppage in most peoples minds, Cain was dominating but Rothwell was far from out and was actually improving his position and standing up when it was stopped.

Then Kongo wasn’t finished at all, and one could say Nog’s chin isn’t anything compared to what it used to be.

CPG

by Chris Groves on Oct 20, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Velasquez doesn’t have natural power like a JDS or Carwin has, but he makes up for it in technique especially since he throws short, crisp, and fast strikes throwing his hips as well. Many want to call him pillow hands, but a lot of times Cain’s fights hit the ground, and the punches he throws on the ground are arm punches in high volume. Also, fighters like Kongo or Rothwell are actually very durable and tough to finish with strikes, yet many use those two fights as examples of Cain having pillow hands.

Check out MMA For You at http://www.youtube.com/user/Gobusiness123 for MMA reviews, predictions, and analysis.

by chrisbboy82 on Oct 21, 2010 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

have no idea where this pillowhands crap is coming from

For me personally, I started calling him that after the Rothwell fight. Still think he is going to win.

"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield

"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)

by WeaponElDeem on Oct 21, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

good article

thanks for this – it’s a good point about how he just did not like to get hit. the sapp comparison is a good one.

i do have a lot of faith in brock, but i’m a big fan of cain too.

by Clifford J on Oct 20, 2010 8:13 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t understand how the establishment has praised Fedor for taking a beating and still winning but if Brock does it, he has been exposed. If you watch a lot of MMA you have seen most fighters cover and turtle. What happens AFTER the blow is most important. Some like Franklin, get finished. Others like Leben, Fedor or Lesnar comeback and win. To me that shows the heart of a champion. Lesnar got rocked, dropped ate a NASTY elbow then got back to his feet and smiled.

If you let Carwin hit 99% of the HWs on Earth like that maybe 3 survive. Brock, Fedor and the old Nog. I don’t know how this fight is going to play out (I could save $50) but I can’t wait for Saturday night.

by Riney on Oct 20, 2010 8:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I never questioned his heart

just his instinct. Fedor’s been stunned but I’ve never seen him flinch from a punch. Big difference.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fujita?

And he did more than flinch.

by Riney on Oct 20, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

he got cracked on the chin and stunned. He never flinched, ducked or cowered. There is a difference and I’m afraid I’ve exhausted my abilities to explain the distinction.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

He did cower and wildly grasp for anything he could. I just watched the fight, it was very similar to Lesnars reaction.

by Riney on Oct 20, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

AFTER HE WAS STUNNED

Fujita cracked him HARD. Carwin didn’t land cleanly on Lesnar until after he was ducking and cowering.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Oct 20, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK now I understand what you are saying.

Guess we both should have been a little more clear.

by Riney on Oct 20, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not flinching is definitely trainable...

Step 1: Get a good boxer partner that doesn’t have knockout power.
Step 2: Get hit in the face for 10 minutes every day, you’re not allowed to fight back. Eventually work in footwork and bobbing n weaving.
Step 3: Spar… a LOT. Spar boxing, spar kickboxing.

The only way to stop flinching is to get used to punches and learn how to roll with them. This is a painful and horrid training… but it’ll make you better and get you nice black eyes to boot.

by MyrkN on Oct 21, 2010 6:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Instinct is not a problem

I don’t see Brock losing from any such deficiencies here. The problem is the rest of Brock’s game.

1. Brock’s takedowns are not unstoppable, as illustrated in this article. Carwin stopped them easily with footwork and a either plain hooks or, failing that, a whizzer. There is no chain wrestling like Maynard/Edgar, rapid direction change like Rashad/GSP, etc.

2. Brock has god awful striking defense. We saw it in the Mir fight, but he couldn’t capitalize. Carwin’s unrefined striking tagged him at will on the feet, and he got some clean jabs through even in the second with no footwork.

3. Brock’s punches can be avoided. Couture did a good job until the reach advantage and the inability of his 46-yr-old body to moved in and out proved too much.

It is true that Cain doesn’t have the power of Brock. However, he doesn’t need it. All he needs are openings to score points and discourage Brock, and he will get them for the decision victory.

by Mint on Oct 21, 2010 7:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Getting hit

and getting hit by Shane Carwin are two different things. That man has scary power. Scary even in a sport where one punch knockouts are, if not routine, far from abnormal. If someone had Cain’s conditioning and skillset, and Carwin’s power, then yes, Brock would have big problems.

To worry about Brock’s heart though is laughable. He got hit hard by the hardest hitting guy in the business, he ate some brutal GNP, but by the end of the round he was back on his feet. Start of round 2 he was smiling, and shortly thereafter he won. I’m not seeing a problem.

I consider myself a softcore fan.

by Thor77 on Oct 21, 2010 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

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