Wrestling Across Continents: How MMA Matches are Fought in America and Japan
We've determined this week that wrestling is the most common base for successful MMA fighters, both in the United States today and historically in Japan. Some have speculated that the Unified Rules, the regulations in place at every UFC bout, have helped create a wrestling friendly environment. The 10 point "must" system, the Octagon control, the judge's respect and admiration for the takedown, combine for an atmosphere that rewards wrestling and encourages talented wrestlers to enter the sport. That's the theory at least.
But what about in Japan? There, in promotions like DREAM, the judging criteria rewards the overall output over the course of an entire fight. Fighters aren't looking to "steal" rounds with a takedown and mere wrestling prowess isn't an overwhelming part of the judging process.
You'd expect that this difference would result in markedly different fighting strategies across continents. Fight Metric's Rami Genauer decided to put it to the test. The Fight Metric team analyzed every DREAM and every UFC fight since March 14, 2008, the day before DREAM's first event. It's a real time look at the industry as it stands today. And the results are surprising. According to Fight Metric's numbers, the takedown is just as big a part of the game in Japan as it is in America:
The thing that stuck out was that the average number of takedowns landed per 15 minutes (a regulation fight for both organizations) was almost exactly the same in both organizations. The UFC average was 1.86. The DREAM average was 1.83. So you’re seeing a difference of about three hundredths of a takedown, which would be essentially imperceptible over any amount of time. I haven’t done more examination than this preliminary analysis, but it certainly speaks to the similarities in fight style despite the differences in the two organizations on the surface.
Genauer looked at 5,733 minutes and 29 seconds of UFC fight time (this is current and includes UFC 120) and 1,311 minutes of DREAM fight time. He says that's more than a sufficient sample size and puts the "the two takedown numbers within any reasonable statistical margin for error."
Nothing has changed since the early wrestlers like Dan Severn roamed the Octagon. Wrestlers wrestle, whether in America or in Japan. Whether the rules reward it or not. It's what they do. Someone's getting taken down, on average almost twice a fight. I expect to see either Brock Lesnar or Cain Velasquez on their backs this weekend. It's what happens next that will decide the fight. And it's a big part of the reason no fighter anywhere in the world should neglect their takedown defense and defensive ground game.
51 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Default dismissive responses
Snowden’s ruined BE.
Snowden’s data is wrong.
Snowden’s just trying to be a contrarian.
Snowden deletes comments, which is totally something that the rest of the BE crew never fucking does ever.
Snowden is the worst thing to happen since Kid Nate.
Snowden is biased.
Snowden’s an amateur.
Can we skip all these for once? It’s getting old.
So much cock. A cock guy.
Read my stuff at SMG.
by inadvertentgroinstrike on Oct 20, 2010 4:14 PM EDT reply actions
Why'd you bring it up?
First response to the article and you don’t even talk about the article. Just remember you started this argument this time.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Oct 20, 2010 4:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Piss-poor argument.
So, by acknowleging that there’s (in my opinion) a shitty knee-jerk reflex to bitch at Snowden, I am creating the issue? Orcus should be saddened to know that by claiming that wrestling is overrated, he has added to the overratedness of wrestling. This is a tired response, and it wasn’t worth shit to start with.
As for the article itself, I thought it was an excellent continuation of his recent train of thought.
So much cock. A cock guy.
Read my stuff at SMG.
by inadvertentgroinstrike on Oct 20, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why not just comment on the article?
Your first reaction was to bitch about comments nobody even made. That’s all I’m saying.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
I suspect he was simply trying
To nip the usual mindless bullshit directed at Snowden in the bud…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s kind, but those issues have all but disappeared.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll go out on a limb and predict
That whatever article you drop in the aftermath of Lesnar – Cain, regardless of the outcome of the fight, will bring them back out of the woodwork.
Too many people seem to forget that these are, for the most part, op-ed pieces, and that positive, blue-sky pieces don’t draw many clicks or leave much room for the sort of back-and-forths in the commentary that make BE such a great site (Kid Nate’s judo chop summary on Lesnar today – 19 comments).
There is a time and place for the objective historical pieces and interviews along with the far more subjective (and comment inducing) other pieces you do.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Great breakdown John
As much as we like to think it’s a different sport in Japan I think this shows us it’s not all that different
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Oct 20, 2010 4:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
"it's not all that different"
I’ve recently wondered why I don’t get so frustrated when there’s a stalemate on the ground in Japanese MMA. I think, for the most part, as a viewer I am affected by atmosphere, that is, the commentating and exuberance/reticence of the crowd. With Rogan and Goldberg hollering and the crowd turning sour, I grow anxious… The Japanese audiences that seems more contemplative translates to greater patience on my part… It’s curious.
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 20, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hadn't thought of it quite like that
But you are right…at least as far as I am concerned.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn't it be more acurate if they just looked at fights that finished as a decision?
Instead of all fights, just look at decisions and that should give you a better idea of what the takedown is worth in each league.
Drink to remember, drink to forget.
by doonerthesooner on Oct 20, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Genauer looked at 5,733 minutes and 29 seconds of UFC fight time (this is current and includes UFC 120) and 1,311 minutes of DREAM fight time.
Kind of vague, but does that mean he watched all ~7000 minutes of fighter footage? If so…

"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
Wow.
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 20, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a lot of them thar MMA bloggers.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Im just not sure that this actually proves or even attempts to prove anything??
I dont think there has ever been anybody claiming that fights dont go to the ground much in Dream or anything like that??
Odd stats.
There have been many people who have claimed that due to the difference in rules and scoring that there is lesser prevalence of wrestlers in Japanese MMA, which these numbers would dispute.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
The fact That They are virtually identical is amazing.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 4:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is a very nice article that shows that the prevalance of takedowns in both Japan and N. America. However one thing i believe that the article and the Fight Metric analysis fails to examine is whether the prevalance of takedowns although similar in the two countries changes the END RESULT of the fights. i.e. Whether the focus on decisions is toward the Takedown or Attempt to Finish. I hope i was clear in what i was stating. Maybe this can be examined in the future as i would feel this is a better indicator on the validity of wrestling in achieving decisions.
agreed
I always thought the difference between the two cultures in MMA in the ground was that in the US they’ll get more points for takedowns, whereas in Japan that wasn’t the case. But that didn’t mean people wouldn’t take each other to the ground in Japan, it’s all about the scoring system, not what fighters do inside the cage/ring.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
why is it amazing you gotta think there’s no truly inventive camp out there that’s bringing a style we’ve never seen before just variations of stuff that’s been around for a thousand years. I gotta agree with pRoXiMo and Orcus on this one did it affect how the fight was scored?
I find it rather amazing as well
I would guess it is the quicker stand-ups and restarts that seem to me to be more prevalent in Japan that keep it from having the same feel as the UFC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
it seems like a weird thing to focus on and the whole thing seems like an incomplete assessment to me
It is one piece of interesting data. No more, no less.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 6:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yep
one thing I always thought to myself while watching both organizations is that Pride wouldn’t allow too much time when people were striking from the top without much damage and would stand people up, this does not happen in the UFC. In contrast, people that were going for submissions (but many times failing) wouldn’t be broken up.
the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.
Exactly
Its as if the ref were trying to discern true intent (and perhaps likelihood in his opinion) before making the decision.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate the work going into it, but I think it’s sort of misleading. I mean, it’s not like a wrestler is the only guy going for a takedown. BJJ guys take guys to the floor to submit them, do they not? There are more submission fighters in Japanese MMA, generally. The rules might be different, but I don’t see how the idea that the number of takedowns is the same means anything. The purpose of the takedowns is a more telling stat, IMO.
http://www.instrength.com
True
Although, iirc, someone did a workup of submissions in PRIDE compared to the UFC and there wasn’t a noticeable difference.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 20, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
True, they might not necessarily get the finish. But just going by his stats, around 30% of the top tenners are straight submission fighters (throwing judo in that category). If Kaz Nakamura and Shinya Aoki are included, it climbs to close to 40% straight sub fighters in Pride. That’s an appreciable difference. These guys are working takedowns the same as wrestlers are, but they don’t fit into the narrative being pushed together here. Takedowns alone don’t equal wrestlers alone.
http://www.instrength.com
I agree on all counts
I think the means to the end is the same, the actual ends stay the same. However, the reasons and actions taking place during those “same” things are not at all the same.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 20, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
“There are more submission fighters in Japanese MMA, generally.”
What are you basing this on?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
A few things:
1. The stats I mentioned above about 40% of Pride fighters being straight sub guys, as opposed to the 30% average from the top fighters overall;
2. The smaller Japanese organizations such as Shooto and DEEP seem to emphasize submission grappling over striking and straight wrestling.
http://www.instrength.com
The question that is in my mind is what fighters in Japan are doing once the fight hits the ground as opposed to in the US? The big issue with wrestling right now is not the utilization of it, but the follow up. In Japan, there is the yellow card system, so the assumption is that most fighters tend to be more active once the fight hits the ground. In the US, we have seen much stalling tactics both on the ground and against the cage, and there is no real penalty for stalling during the fight except for a ref standup, but the fighter on top tends to get the nod with the judges.
Check out MMA For You at http://www.youtube.com/user/Gobusiness123 for MMA reviews, predictions, and analysis.
Personally
I would like to see the number of takedowns per minute compared between winning fighters and losing ones.
Guillotine.
In 67,82% of the times
the numbers are incorret.
You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Okay. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around.
George Carlin
I don't really see how this proves anything,
I’d have liked them to have calculated how much time is spent on the ground after the takedown. I would venture a guess that it would be significantly higher in North American MMA than Japanese MMA
Green Jacket, Gold Jacket, who gives a shit?
As mentioned above
The thing people cry about is the fact that wrestlers have the ability to lay and pray, or wall and stall. It is the scoring, not the takedowns, that people dislike.
Unfortunately trying to capture the difference between the promotions statistically will be difficult, as the substance is what is done with the takedowns, and how they have been subsequently scored by the judges.
Watching Dream I rarely, if ever, get the feeling that one fighter is avoiding damage and just trying to lay and pray a decision. A subjective feeling like this is all any of us will have to go on in this debate.
Forever indebted to CroCop's left leg for getting me into MMA
by Well Read Idiot on Oct 20, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions
Remi provides a valuable service – knowing more than all of us. That’s an insane amount of fights. I have some catching up to do.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 20, 2010 7:17 PM EDT reply actions
Honestly, while it’s great and valuable work, I suspect most hardcore fans have seen all the UFC’s and DREAM shows…
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 21, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Earn your right to strike
by learning to wrestle and grapple.

by 























