Wrestling is Overrated!

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 4:14 PM EDT

After all the talk about how wrestling is the best base to have in MMA, I decided to do some investigation myself, and throw some numbers at the spreadsheet. As many of you may know if you’re used to reading any of my comments, I just don’t think that to be the case. My findings pretty much told me that my current stance is wrong, wrestlers do appear to be ahead in the game, at least by success rate.

I copied all the fighters from the Bloody Elbow’s top 25 rankings, and to define their base I searched Wikipedia to see how each is listed. Now, I don’t really think Wikipedia is always 100% reliable, but in this case it is sufficient to keep my personal bias outside of the equation. Whichever Martial Art they had first listed under each fighter’s "style" I put it as their base, while any secondary Martial Art I put it under a separate category in the table below (Part of Full Arsenal, which is not really important to the debate but since I copied I thought about leaving them there as well). I personally don’t agree with all fighters’ listed base Martial Art as described per Wikipedia, but as a whole, I think they’re quite on the money.

I couldn’t help to keep my bias aside at all times and took out a few less used MA’s such as Gaidojutsu (Greg Jackson), Capoeira, Street Fighting, and Grappling (without specifics). Fighters that had these style listed had them listed as secondary styles and not their base style so I didn’t think it would be a big deal to take them out. I also put styles such as Shooto, Catch Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling and other forms of wrestling under the Wrestling category, and crazy Jiu-Jitsu names (such as Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu) under the BJJ category. Fighters that appeared more than once in the rankings such as Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, Vitor Belfort, Jake Shields and Joachim Hansen were taken out so it wouldn’t have any duplicates.

So, let’s first show the table for the champions, the important category is the Base Style, the other column is for the additional styles each fighters’ possess

MA	Base Style	As Part of Full Arsenal
BJJ	0,00%	25,00%
Boxing	14,29%	20,00%
Freestyle	0,00%	0,00%
Hapkido	0,00%	0,00%
Judo	0,00%	5,00%
Karate	14,29%	5,00%
Kickboxing	0,00%	0,00%
Kung Fu	0,00%	0,00%
Muay Thai	42,86%	20,00%
Sambo	0,00%	0,00%
Submission Grappling	0,00%	0,00%
Sumo	0,00%	0,00%
Tae Kwon Do	0,00%	5,00%
Unknown	0,00%	0,00%
Vale Tudo	0,00%	0,00%
Wrestling	28,57%	20,00%

Now for the top ten (these aren’t too far from Jonathan’s numbers):

MA	Base Style	As Part of Full Arsenal
BJJ	25,00%	24,84%
Boxing	8,82%	20,50%
Freestyle	0,00%	1,24%
Hapkido	0,00%	0,00%
Judo	4,41%	6,21%
Karate	2,94%	2,48%
Kickboxing	5,88%	8,70%
Kung Fu	0,00%	0,62%
Muay Thai	7,35%	9,32%
Sambo	1,47%	0,62%
Submission Grappling	0,00%	1,24%
Sumo	0,00%	0,62%
Tae Kwon Do	1,47%	1,24%
Unknown	2,94%	1,24%
Vale Tudo	0,00%	0,00%
Wrestling	39,71%	21,12%

And finally for the top 25:

MA	Base Style	As Part of Full Arsenal
BJJ	21,76%	23,44%
Boxing	12,94%	18,75%
Freestyle	1,76%	1,56%
Hapkido	0,59%	0,26%
Judo	4,71%	5,47%
Karate	2,94%	2,08%
Kickboxing	8,82%	10,94%
Kung Fu	0,00%	1,04%
Muay Thai	8,24%	9,11%
Sambo	1,18%	0,78%
Submission Grappling	0,00%	0,52%
Sumo	0,00%	0,26%
Tae Kwon Do	0,59%	1,04%
Unknown	4,71%	2,08%
Vale Tudo	0,00%	0,26%
Wrestling	31,76%	22,40%

Now, even though Wrestling still appears to be the dominant art, notice how it drops almost 8 points from the Top 10 to the Top 25. If you think only the Top 10 is relevant, I’d argue that the Top 25 has tomorrow’s Top 10 listed (though it also includes people that are falling out of the rankings). We all know how MMA changes from year to year, chances are that the Top 10 listed under any ranking system will soon fall out of it.

People can make a case for how Wrestling is the best base to have in MMA, surely the numbers will back their arguments, but frankly I just think it’s a moot point. Even though the base currently has a dominant stance, people that don’t have wrestling as their base continues to find their spaces within the MMA industry (after all, non-wrestlers have more success rate than wrestlers). It’s not about the art, it’s about the athlete. A simple example of this is GSP, a guy who didn’t grow up in a wrestling environment and is able to outwrestle the wrestlers.

Wrestling is a great and powerful art, I’m not a hater of wrestling, I just think labeling it as "the best" base to have is nothing more than overrating it.

Below is the full chart for each fighters and how each style were associated to them.

FIGHTER	Base	Other Skills
Brock Lesnar	Wrestling
Fedor Emelianenko	Sambo	Judo	Boxing
Cain Velasquez	Wrestling	Kickboxing
Fabricio Werdum	BJJ	Muay Thai
Shane Carwin	Boxing	Wrestling	Freestyle
Junior dos Santos	Kickboxing	Boxing	BJJ
Frank Mir	BJJ	Muay Thai	Boxing	Karate
Alistair Overeem	Kickboxing	Muay Thai	Submission Grappling
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira	BJJ	Boxing	Judo
Josh Barnett	Wrestling
Brett Rogers	Boxing	Muay Thai	Wrestling
Antonio Silva	Karate	BJJ
Gabriel Gonzaga	BJJ	Muay Thai	Kickboxing	Boxing	Wrestling
Cheick Kongo	Kickboxing	Muay Thai	Wrestling
Mirko Filipovic	Karate	Tae Kwon Do	Boxing	Kickboxing	Muay Thai	BJJ
Andrei Arlovski	Sambo	Boxing	Kickboxing
Roy Nelson	Boxing	BJJ	Kung Fu
Pedro Rizzo	Muay Thai	Kickboxing	Vale Tudo
Aleksander Emelianenko	Boxing	Sambo	Judo
Ben Rothwell	Kickboxing	Wrestling
Tim Sylvia	Boxing	Kickboxing	Wrestling
Randy Couture	Wrestling	Boxing
Stefan Struve	Kickboxing	BJJ
Mike Russow	Wrestling	BJJ	Boxing
Jeff Monson	Wrestling	BJJ
Mauricio Rua	Muay Thai	BJJ
Lyoto Machida	Karate	BJJ	Sumo
Rashad Evans	Wrestling	Boxing	Kickboxing	BJJ
Quinton Jackson	Wrestling	Boxing
Forrest Griffin	Kickboxing	BJJ	Freestyle	Muay Thai	Boxing
Ryan Bader	Wrestling	BJJ	Boxing
Jon Jones	Wrestling	Muay Thai
Antonio Rogerio Nogueira	BJJ	Boxing
Gegard Mousasi	Judo	Kickboxing	Boxing
Thiago Silva	BJJ	Muay Thai	Boxing
Muhammed Lawal	Wrestling	Boxing
Rich Franklin	Freestyle	Kickboxing	BJJ	Muay Thai
Rafael Cavalcante	Muay Thai	Boxing	BJJ
Renato Sobral	BJJ	Wrestling
Matt Hamill	Wrestling	Boxing	BJJ
Brandon Vera	Muay Thai	Wrestling	BJJ	Boxing
Jason Brilz	Wrestling
Luis Arthur Cane	BJJ	Muay Thai	Kickboxing
Tito Ortiz	Wrestling	Boxing
Phil Davis	Wrestling	BJJ
Chuck Liddell	Karate	Kickboxing	Wrestling	Boxing
Cyrille Diabate	Muay Thai	Kickboxing
Anderson Silva	Muay Thai	Boxing	BJJ	Tae Kwon Do	Judo
Chael Sonnen	Wrestling
Nate Marquardt	BJJ	Boxing	Kickboxing
Jake Shields	Wrestling	BJJ
Vitor Belfort	Boxing	BJJ	Karate
Demian Maia	BJJ	Judo	Boxing
Dan Henderson	Wrestling	Boxing	Kickboxing
Yushin Okami	Wrestling	Kickboxing
Jorge Santiago	Kickboxing	BJJ
Ronaldo Souza	BJJ	Judo
Robbie Lawler	Boxing	Wrestling
Michael Bisping	Kickboxing	Boxing	BJJ
Chris Leben	Boxing	Freestyle	Wrestling	BJJ
Alan Belcher	Muay Thai	BJJ
Wanderlei Silva	Muay Thai	BJJ
Mamed Khalidov	Freestyle	Karate	Wrestling
Yoshihiro Akiyama	Judo
Hector Lombard	Judo	BJJ	Boxing
Paulo Filho	BJJ	Judo
Alessio Sakara	Boxing	BJJ
Thales Leites	BJJ
Patrick Cote	Boxing	Kickboxing	Wrestling	BJJ
Kazuo Misaki	Judo	Kickboxing
Tim Kennedy	Boxing	BJJ
Rousimar Palhares	BJJ
Georges St. Pierre	Karate	Wrestling	Muay Thai	Boxing	BJJ
Jon Fitch	Wrestling	BJJ	Kickboxing
Josh Koscheck	Wrestling	Kickboxing
Thiago Alves	Muay Thai	BJJ
Nick Diaz	BJJ	Boxing
Dan Hardy	Tae Kwon Do	Boxing	Muay Thai	BJJ	Kung Fu
Martin Kampmann	Muay Thai	Wrestling
Matt Hughes	Wrestling	Submission Grappling
Paulo Thiago	BJJ	Judo	Boxing
Paul Daley	Muay Thai	Boxing
Mike Swick	Kickboxing	BJJ	Wrestling
Chris Lytle	Boxing	BJJ	Wrestling
Jay Hieron	Wrestling	Boxing
Carlos Condit	Muay Thai	Kickboxing	Boxing	BJJ	Kung Fu
John Hathaway	Boxing	Wrestling	BJJ
Matt Serra	BJJ	Boxing
Ben Askren	Wrestling	BJJ
Jake Ellenberger	Wrestling
Anthony Johnson	Kickboxing	Kung Fu	Wrestling
Dan Hornbuckle	BJJ
Mike Pierce	Wrestling
Ricardo Almeida	BJJ	Wrestling	Boxing
Akihiro Gono	Boxing	Judo
Dong Hyun Kim	Judo	Wrestling	Kickboxing
Frank Edgar	Wrestling	Boxing	BJJ
B.J. Penn	BJJ	Boxing
Gilbert Melendez	Wrestling	BJJ	Muay Thai
Gray Maynard	Wrestling	Boxing
Shinya Aoki	BJJ	Judo	Wrestling
Eddie Alvarez	Boxing	Wrestling
Kenny Florian	BJJ	Muay Thai	Boxing
Tatsuya Kawajiri	Wrestling
George Sotiropoulos	BJJ	Boxing
Sean Sherk	Wrestling	BJJ	Boxing
Jim Miller	BJJ	Wrestling
Evan Dunham	BJJ	Wrestling	Muay Thai
Takanori Gomi	Boxing	Wrestling
Ben Henderson	Wrestling	Tae Kwon Do
Mizuto Hirota	Boxing	Judo
Tyson Griffin	Wrestling
Joe Stevenson	BJJ	Judo	Wrestling
Kurt Pellegrino	BJJ	Wrestling
Gesias Cavalcante	BJJ	Kickboxing
Diego Sanchez	Wrestling	BJJ	Muay Thai	Boxing
Josh Thomson	Kickboxing	Wrestling
Joachim Hansen	Kickboxing	BJJ
Melvin Guillard	Kickboxing	Wrestling	Judo
Clay Guida	Wrestling
Kazunori Yokota	Judo
Jose Aldo	Muay Thai	BJJ
Manny Gamburyan	Judo
Mike Brown	Wrestling	Boxing
Urijah Faber	Wrestling	Kickboxing	BJJ
Marlon Sandro	BJJ
Bibiano Fernandes	BJJ
Michihiro Omigawa	Judo
Hatsu Hioki	Wrestling	BJJ
Josh Grispi	Unknown
Masanori Kanehara	Unknown
Joe Warren	Wrestling
L.C. Davis	Wrestling
Deividas Taurosevicius	BJJ
Leonard Garcia	BJJ	Boxing
Rafael Assuncao	BJJ	Muay Thai
Hiroyuki Takaya	Wrestling
Yuji Hoshino	Wrestling	Kickboxing
Diego Nunes	Muay Thai	BJJ	Kickboxing
Chad Mendes	Wrestling
Mark Hominick	Kickboxing	Muay Thai
Kazuyuki Miyata	Wrestling
Joe Soto	Wrestling
Takeshi Inoue	Kickboxing
Chan Sung Jung	Hapkido	Kickboxing
Dominick Cruz	Boxing	Wrestling
Brian Bowles	Wrestling	Boxing
Joseph Benavidez	Wrestling	Kickboxing
Scott Jorgensen	Wrestling
Miguel Torres	BJJ	Muay Thai
Takeya Mizugaki	Boxing	Wrestling
Wagnney Fabiano	BJJ
Damacio Page	Boxing	BJJ
Masakatsu Ueda	Wrestling	BJJ
Charlie Valencia	Wrestling	BJJ	Boxing
Rani Yahya	BJJ
Masakazu Imanari	Wrestling	BJJ
Brad Pickett	Boxing	BJJ
Eddie Wineland	Wrestling	Boxing
Akitoshi Tamura	Freestyle
Antonio Banuelos	Wrestling	Boxing
Shuichiro Katsumura	Unknown
Michael McDonald	Unknown
Abel Cullum	BJJ
Zack Makovsky	Wrestling
Darren Uyenoyama	Unknown
Ian Loveland	Unknown
Kenji Osawa	Unknown
Jimmie Rivera	Unknown
Jeff Curran	Boxing	BJJ

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Tweet Comment 88 comments | 21 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

If you think only the Top 10 is relevant, I’d argue that the Top 25 has tomorrow’s Top 10 listed

The a good portion of 11-25 are fading stars. For HW and LHW its even worse. Maybe the lighter classes have some future stars, but wrestling get less dominant the lighter you get.

by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 19, 2010 4:29 PM EDT reply actions

yeah

perhaps even a bigger poll should be taken to include young prospects.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Holy Crap

That was a lot of work!

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse

by Chris Barton on Oct 19, 2010 4:37 PM EDT reply actions

ha

just copying and pasting for an hour :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Awesome nerd-out. I’m impressed. And I’m not easily impressed. Wow! A blue car!

by John Nash on Oct 19, 2010 4:39 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs

hey

I’m expecting some rec’s even if you guys don’t agree with me!

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Hell, who do you think knocked off his own fanpost?

by John Nash on Oct 19, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

doh!

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Not to nitpick, but Damacio Page was a Division I college wrestler. He even says in an interview here that his “sports background” is in wrestling and kickboxing. I know this actually widens the gap slightly between the Top 10 and Top 25, but I doubt he’s the only guy whose wrestling background was omitted from Wikipedia.

by Chromium on Oct 19, 2010 5:18 PM EDT reply actions

sure

but people with BJJ background was also omitted, such as Vitor Belfort, but all in all I think these mistakes are in the minority, I didn’t want to mess with the data though.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

The mistakes are across the board and glaring in places. You’ve replaced expert opinion with whatever wikipedia provides.

The MMA Encyclopedia: Dropping in One Month! This November in stores near you.

by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions

I wanted to use an outside metric system

one that wouldn’t be subjected to my own bias and errors, overall I think the bases are ok though.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions

You are replacing your own errors with wikipedia’s though. Which is worse. Why would you have a bias about what a fighter’s base style is anyway? That’s kind of weird.

The MMA Encyclopedia: Dropping in One Month! This November in stores near you.

by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Well, for one, as much as I follow MMA, I am not an expert on all 70 top fighters from all 7 weight classes, therefore, there would most likely be errors there. Another reason is that you saw how many debates there were on your own post regarding each fighter’s base, and you actually went back and changed one, so by action you acknowledge errors can be made. Third, no study will be 100% flawless, even if I was an expert on all fighters, there would be errors, so why not use an outside metric system, one that isn’t subjected to my errors and or bias? It’s not weird saying there can be bias, I could place GSP in the wrestling category but that would be a bias, technically his base shouldn’t be wrestling.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions

Of course errors can be made. There were debates about maybe 5 of 70 fighters on my initial list. Still, I feel much better with the expertise in this community between the readers, guys like Nate, and a guy that’s written an MMA Encyclopedia. I think that trumps wikipedia everytime.

It’s not weird saying there can be bias, I could place GSP in the wrestling category but that would be a bias, technically his base shouldn’t be wrestling.

That’s not bias. That’s incorrect information. There is a huge and significant difference between the two.

The MMA Encyclopedia: Dropping in One Month! This November in stores near you.

by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions

well, I'm not an expert

just a guy making a fanpost :p

Anderson Silva, base in Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do, and why?

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions

"well, I'm not an expert"

Don’t worry, neither is Snowden.

BOOSH!

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Oct 20, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions

ha!

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Also, while I’m impressed with the amount of research you put into this and the relatively scientific analysis, wrestling is still the strongest! Wrestling ichiban!

by Chromium on Oct 19, 2010 5:24 PM EDT reply actions

haha

non-wrestling base>wrestling base :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions

how is boxing carwin’s base and not wrestling?

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 5:28 PM EDT reply actions

I’m going by Wikipedia

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions

‘Scuse me a sec, I’m gonna go change your results. Brb

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Oct 19, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs

lol

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions

and if you look at how he fights

you can see how they formed that impression

I consider myself a softcore fan.

by Thor77 on Oct 19, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions

sure

but that’s why I didn’t mess with the results :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions

oops

my bad, I just noticed I replied wrong, I thought you were talking about my answer for Vitor Belfot’s boxing base above :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions

I would say most of them are close, but you probably know better than wikipedia does.

Carwin was a big time wrestler and football player, albeit for a small college, which isn’t a big deal for wrestling. Does he tend to throw punches? Yes, but I would hesitate to call what he does “boxing”, lol.

Another is Nelson, who is a BJJ black belt, but I’m not sure of his background beyond that.

Using the logic applied to those 2 guys, wouldn’t it make sense to list BJ Penn as a boxer, since he apparently has forgotten that he is a world class BJJ guy?

Just making a couple of points, not demeaning your post, which is highly rec’d and very well done.

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions

no problem :p

I just didn’t want to change a few and leave others alone. for one it’s much quicker to just copy and paste and not stop to think about them (only copying and pasting took me an hour, it would have taken me all day if I stopped to research them all). I think the results at least are not that far off in the end.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions

Great job

Realistically, a fully in depth analysis would take a lot of time, and debate, to get right, but this is an excellent substitute.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Oct 19, 2010 5:46 PM EDT reply actions

thanks!

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I think you have the right idea to just stick with Wikipedia's listings

Anyone can point out something wrong with how a particular fighter is listed (or ranked), but if you start nitpicking then eventually the whole exercise is in danger of becoming nothing more than an expression of your own biases.

As for me, I think wrestling is quickly going to become one of those things where, once the perception is that “wrestling is dominant”, then everyone will work on their wrestling. Due to everyone working on it, wrestling defense will improve, and then other things (like knock-out power) will suddenly become more important.

by Lauren J Darkbloom on Oct 19, 2010 5:51 PM EDT reply actions

yeah

I didn’t want to change things as I saw them and just decided to leave them as they were listed at wiki. I think if I did change them it would have made more errors at the end.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions

+1 I like how you took the subjectivity out of it

Although I wish you’d left capoeira and street fighting in there, those are my two favorite styles :)

I consider myself a softcore fan.

by Thor77 on Oct 19, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions

mine too

it was part of Anderson’s resumé (for Capoeira that is)

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions

You take subjectivity OUT by relying on wikipedia? That’s fairly hilarious.

The MMA Encyclopedia: Dropping in One Month! This November in stores near you.

by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions

He is keeping his OWN subjective bias out

And since wikipedia is not produced by any single person, then the various subjective biases pulling in different directions will, on average, cancel each other out.

The alternative, that is, adjusting it himself, takes an OVERALL objective set (that’s Overall, J-Sno, I’m not saying each individual fighter’s listing is objective) and makes that set more subjective, influenced by his own biases.

by Arca MMA on Oct 20, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions

thanks :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions

Who has a “subjective” bias about what a fighter’s base is? This is bizarre. Frankie Edgar was a college wrestler. His base is wrestling. What is subjective about that? It’s not an opinion.

The MMA Encyclopedia: Dropping in One Month! This November in stores near you.

by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 20, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions

a lot of times, it is

nothing is factual, it is all opinion. Anderson Silva was doing Tae Kown Do way before he was doing Muay Thai, is his base Tae Kown Do or Muay Thai? Matter of opinion…

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions

Reccing for a few reason

A. your sn always reminds me of Killer Whales, and they fucking rule
B. you put a shitload of work into this, and its pretty cool

Will I ever get to where I'm going?
If I do, will I know when I'm there?

by Austin Martin on Oct 19, 2010 6:30 PM EDT reply actions

hey

that’s all I ask, even if people don’t agree with the conclusion :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Clap, clap, clap.

Assorted woohoo’s.

by bubbafat on Oct 19, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions

Do Brazilians use commas instead of periods when dealing with decimal fractions? 25,30% instead of 25.30%

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Oct 19, 2010 6:56 PM EDT reply actions

yep

most European countries do that too I believe

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions

What do you do for a number like 1.234? If you wrote 1,234 i would think that’s one-thousand two-hundred thirty-four. Do you only use commas with percents?

by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Oct 19, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions

over here 1.234 = one thousand two-hundred thirty four, while 1,234 < 2.

it’s basically the contrary, wherever you use periods, we use commas, and vice versa. It can be a bit confusing for people who are only used to one system, I work a lot with the clients in the US and Europe so I’m used to seeing it differently all the time. The only reason why I didn’t put periods above is because I was copying them from my spreadsheet instead of typing them out (which would have taken forever), but that’s the only reason why I kept the commas (though, come to think of right now, I could have just replaced the commas with periods with a simple search and replace, but I’m slow) :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions

USA! USA! USA!

Ooops. Thought I was at a UFC event for a second there, lol.

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey orcus, did you look into the number of fighters by nationality? Is one of the reasons that wrestling is so dominant is because the majority of fighters are from the US where a wrestling background dominates?

by John Nash on Oct 19, 2010 7:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I didn’t think of breaking it down geographically, but a big chunk of the wrestling also comes from Japanese fighters believe it or not (big chunk maybe 10%, but I’m only guessing here)

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions

The largest number of high quality fighters come from:

1) USA – huge wrestling base
2) Japan – Judo, followed by wrestling (amateur/proresu)
3) Brazil – BJJ, muy tha

Is the US and Japan two of the top three because they have solid wrestling programs, or is wrestling overrepresented because fighters from the Japan and the US are overrepresented? If MMA takes off in China, in a decade is Sanda going to be the new base that dominates?

by John Nash on Oct 19, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions

good question

I personally think that the UFC needs to keep a good chunk of American fighters in their roster, because without American fighters the UFC would fail. This is not to say that they don’t deserve to be in the UFC though. But TUF for example, gives a lot of opportunities to fighters who would otherwise not be in the UFC, and with the exception of a season where it was the US vs UK (not sure if there were other seasons like that), most of the fighters they put in the house are Americans.

I wish I had copied each fighter’s nationality as well into the database to see the numbers. I also think places that have many different types of MAs will rise once they can implement other styles such as wrestling or BJJ into their games. Thailand for example, should be a great exporter of some nice Muay Thai fighters.

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 19, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the wrestling and just overall training in the US is why Japanese fighters have such a hard time succeeding when they come to the USA.

nottheface made a good point in his fanpost about Russia being greatly untapped, and I agree with his major point, but I also think Brazil is also under utilized. I’m sure you know, there are a ton of fighters down there that aren’t getting shots in the USA, for a number of reasons. Of course, there are also a lot of big names who do.

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Brazilians with MT as their base are the ones im looking for now. Sadly, the success rate of the BJJ masters in MMA has been iffy. Its been pretty dissapointing looking for the next Maia and Jacare.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Oct 19, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions

The biggest reason for the Japanese having a hard time IMO is

That, unlike the US-based/trained fighters, for the most part they do not cut weight and thus are perennially undersized.

Yes, that is true of most of the Brazilian’s as well, but the MT+BJJ style the elite guys use is not affected nearly as much as a wrestling based style.

"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, how big did Bisping look compared to Akiyama the other night. Didn’t even look like the same division.

From what I understand, the Japanese fighters feel it is somehow not honorable to cut much weight.

by BJJDenver on Oct 20, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Royce Gracie, Brock Lesnar, and GSP have proven what martial art is the best...

Royce showed us.. if one only one martial art was picked to train for a one on one fight.. I’d pick bjj.

IF more than one art is trained.. BJJ or another submission art is A must. Ie brock lesnar and his first fight.

Brock won his second fight.. why? he trained and had more experience with the submission grappling game.

BJJ encompasses most all wrestling moves that work well in a mma fight. . that’s why gsp does well. He uses doubles without going to a knee (as taught in most all old school bjj classes ie not wrestling hybrid)

the only two TDs not scene in most bjj training are suplex (sp?), dirty singles.. its like they already picked the most effective to train. same with the judo techniques.. most of the very effective moves and powerful throws are trained..

I truly feel if BJJ wants to stay on top of the food chain .. the rules need to change tho.. pulling guard is not fighting smart. and is leaving bjj fighters needing to train outside their class or normal game to to stay current with the mma scene. my two cents.

and judo is in a worse position.. with the rule changes as of late it is only going to hurt their ability to transfer their honed game to mma.

by waldog on Oct 19, 2010 10:29 PM EDT reply actions

Those three fighters show that wrestling is the best. How did good ol’ Royce do against Hughes? As for Brock and GSP, I would imagine that most people say their wrestling is the dominant part of their game.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Oct 19, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions

really?

You’re going to use Royce vs Hughes to make your point?

You’re better than that, lol!

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Meh.

It was late, and I like messing with the “______ is da bestest!” posts.

Guillotine.

by iiowyn on Oct 20, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions

pulling guard is not fighting smart

Outside of MMA, it nearly always is.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Oct 20, 2010 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions

Really?

Pulling guard is a seriously bad idea in most real-life violent situations, unless you like getting your head stamped on by your assailant’s mates. Imho it’s viable in BJJ/submission grappling (or MMA if you’re REALLY good) and that’s about it

Travis Lutter is not the Michael Jordan of BJJ

by Mattyjudo on Oct 20, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions

I deifnitely didn't mean in real life violence

I should have been more clear, I meant in things like Ne – Waza, and submission grappling.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Oct 20, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions

this is why a good bjj guy with a few real good takedowns is very dangerous

top position submission grappling = win

by Richard Doughty on Oct 20, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions

not saying gsp is good at wrestling because he trains bjj.. but that his technique is tuned somewhat towards bjj. ie oly canadian wrestlers wouldnt train their shot like him.

by waldog on Oct 19, 2010 10:36 PM EDT reply actions

Only one thing is for sure...

MMA is an ever evolving sport and any particular style of base can be dominant for a certain period.

I do think that the impact of wrestling is a little overstated at the top of the rankings, but is spot on for the next wave of fighters, which I expect to very wrestling centric.

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:10 PM EDT reply actions

I’ve always like the idea coming off a specific MA base instead of training MMA right away. IMO, in this sport, you have to be very excellent at one discipline to be elite. Being Jack of All trades can only go so far.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Oct 19, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah, as interesting as the old style vs style cards were, it definitely isn’t that way now. I do agree, having a base, of just about any kind, is good, but these guys definitely need to realize at an early stage that they will need to train EXTENSIVELY in other styles as well.

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh, I agree.

But at some point in a MMA fighter’s career, he shall be facing an opponent with superior wrestling/stand-up/submission/etc than his. If he doesn’t have a go to arsenal, It’ll be hard for him to succeed.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Oct 19, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Being Jack of All trades can only go so far.

Perfect example is Kenny Florian.

by BJJDenver on Oct 19, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Champions like Rich and Forrest shall never happen again.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Oct 19, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions

never = 10 years

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Oct 19, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions

And

Nate Marquardt, Roy Nelson, Martin Kampmann… Good, even very good at almost everything, but elite at nothing and thus vulnerable to those who are also well-rounded yet elite in a certain area.

by The American Ronin on Oct 20, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm goign to say it

Roy Nelson does have an elite ground game, he is just less elite at getting to the ground, and gameplanning.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Oct 20, 2010 5:16 AM EDT up reply actions

yep

it’s better to do one thing really well and add other things on top, than to do many things not as well as any single one of them (I’m not sure if I’m making much sense reading that back hehe).

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions

I could only imagine your expression after you got the results.

Fuck, Snowden is right. : P

Rec’d good man.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
But I won’t pick against Jon Jones again until I see him lose. - Kwisatz Haderach

by vivero on Oct 19, 2010 11:16 PM EDT reply actions

haha

pretty much; “godamn it, I’m wrong… but fuck it, wrestling is still overrated” :p

the following two things are signs of weaknesses:
stay silent when it's needed to speak up, and speak up when it's needed to stay silent.

by Orcus on Oct 20, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm clapping

but Wikipedia failed with putting Kongo in the wrestling category, as a third or anything. To bad S&M wasn’t a category.

When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton

by donkeypunch on Oct 19, 2010 11:38 PM EDT reply actions