A Bad Night for British MMA: UFC 120 Delivers, Fighters Don't
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 17, 2010 7:29 AM EDT
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Michael Bisping saved the show for the live crowd, but make no mistake - tonight was a bad night for British MMA. The nation's top three martial artists competed this evening and one thing was abundantly clear - we may have to wait for the next generation of British fighters to finally crown an English UFC champion.
While Bisping decisioned judo sensation Yoshihiro Akiyama, he did so in a manner that makes his long term success at the top of the middleweight division questionable. Bisping unloaded punch after punch on an exhausted Akiyama and never once rattled him. It was enough to win on points, but his inability to hurt his opponents will come back to haunt the Manchester born fighter in future fights.
Not only is Bisping seemingly incapable of a fight finishing strike, he's still making the same mistakes that have cost him time and again. Bisping can be hit, and when it happens, he loses his composure too often. All his careful training is forgotten and he retreats with his chin high, waiting for the punch that will end his night. To make matters worse, his instinct is to circle left, right into his opponent's power hand. Akiyama made him pay several times. It's a habit he desperately needs to correct.
Welterweight Dan Hardy seemed poised to succeed Bisping as the king of the Brits. An interesting and colorful character outside the cage, Hardy was elevated quickly into a title match with Georges St. Pierre. He was outmatched against the champion, but being in the main event at all seemed to solidify his status as something special. That's going to change after a thunderous Carlos Condit left hook ended his night in a hurry.
Hardy was supposed to be the dangerous striker; Condit was the grappler from Greg Jackson's camp who was going to stifle him. Instead, Condit beat him to the punch time and again, scoring the crisper punches and landing a succession of leg kicks. His amazing left hand is one for the highlight reels - more than anything it highlights that Hardy belongs in the middle of the pack at 170, not at his lofty position in the top 10.
While Hardy and Bisping are the "now" fighters in England, John Hathaway was supposed to be the future. An upset win over Diego Sanchez had many proclaiming the young Brit to be a future champion. I was at that fight and saw it differently. I saw a Diego Sanchez who looked disinterested and out of shape. Hathaway didn't wow me - he just took what Diego offered on a silver platter. After, it was confirmed to me that Sanchez had some issues. He's back at Greg Jackson's gym now and looking to put things back together.
That's an extended director's cut version of this simple point: Hathaway hadn't impressed me yet. After tonight, that still remains true. Mike Pyle came in with a gameplan he never altered and it was enough to take him an impressive win. I called this fight for Pyle before the bout, banking on his smarts and strategy to be enough against a prospect that was believing his own hype. Mike Pyle is a solid journeyman fighter, but not someone who has ever lit the world on fire. Like the Sanchez fight, this said more about the loser than the winner. And it says Hathaway is not ready for the bright lights at the top of the division.
There were some bright spots for Brits coming out of the card. More than 17,000 fans came out to see the fights. Prospect Paul Sass remained undefeated and took home submission of the night. And we all got to hear Akiyama's wondrous theme music class up the joint just a little. It was a good night of fights for the fans in the U.K. It just wasn't a good night for the U.K fighters.
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Sass seems like a new promising British prospect at least.
Kinda funny that he trains out of a place called Next Generation UK too… IT’S A SIGN
While I was impressed with Sass’s BJJ, me and my friends really felt like pulling guard and wanting to be on the bottom will only work on lower level fighters. It was a great win for sure, but I personally feel that he should not get comfortable pulling guard especially as he goes higher up the ladder.
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Great comment!
I was thinking the same thing when watching the fight.
Although that worked last night, against top level talent in that division he would get put in a bad position.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 17, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
To add, I noticed that even Demian Maia in his last fight against Mario Miranda and in his fight against Dan Miller that Maia did not pull guard and really worked for top position. That just shows me that even someone of Maia’s BJJ caliber knows that pulling guard and wanting to be on bottom is not a good idea in the higher levels of MMA competition.
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by chrisbboy82 on Oct 18, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
pretty much agreed. hathaway was surprising to me… he looked soooo stiff against pyle.
i have to say that tonight made me a true dan hardy fan, despite the loss. the guy is pretty frickin cool, he went and stood toe to toe and helped make a memorable fight. i can’t wait to see him again, even if his title aspirations took a big step back.
Yeah, his reputation is undeserved. Always been a classy guy as far as I’ve seen. It’s a shame he went down tonight the way he did.
I agree with this
Hardys a classy guy. Most people don’t like him because the ufc gave him the title shot.
"Don't be scared homie!" Mayhem Miller
by We All Hate Caleb on Oct 17, 2010 3:36 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i like your points, well writen Snowy
Fan of Tiger 'Makin It Rain' Woods
This article is what I've been saying in the comments for months.
Hardy was way overvalued thanks to a UFC marketing push. He’s got good handspeed but that’s about it. I’m really hoping people see this as an overvaluing of Hardy more than an undervaluing of Condit. I expect his next fight to be against a non-wrestler with poor power.
Anybody from PB could have told you Diego wasn’t training for the Hathaway fight. He was partying up until about a month out, everybody saw him in clubs and bars all the time. I’m shocked that no media, not even TMZ, picked it up.
Bisping did his thing tonight. He’s a top 15 fighter, but don’t see how he’ll ever make it into the top ten. His defense and chin are a liability and he doesn’t have the takedowns to recover from top position when he gets clipped. I don’t see how he beats Okami, Marquardt, Sonnen, or any of the top 10. The best middleweight I’d consider favoring him over is Robbie Lawler, and he could easily get Hendo’d in that fight.
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by pdl on Oct 17, 2010 1:04 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m really hoping people see this as an overvaluing of Hardy more than an undervaluing of Condit
I like to think it’s a bit of both
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by Cory Braiterman on Oct 17, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
So who's above Bisping in the top ten then?
Because if you have Lawler, Jacare and Santiago in there above him like most do then you’re on drugs, sorry. You have to rank on accomplishment and Bisping’s list of wins (Day following his win over Belcher, Leben, Kang, Miller and Akiyama) are far, far better than the wins those three guys have. I personally have him at #8 now. Would I pick him over Silva, Sonnen, Marquardt, Hendo, Okami and Belfort? No, but I think he’d beat Maia to be honest and everyone else in the world I’d take him against at this point.
I think rankings are dumb anyway because accomplishments really aren’t a good reflection of talent. May Bisping have bigger names on his resume than Kennedy, Jacare? Sure. But he wouldn’t beat either of them.
Condit is a beast!!!
He has more heart than any other fighter out there. I love the way he fights and the fact that he’s not willing to forgo a title shot because GSP’s a team mate is great. It’s business baby!
by knowone on Oct 17, 2010 1:31 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
That whole “I won’t fight my teammate” attitude is bunk. I was glad to head Condit isn’t buying into it.
Boxers fight friends and sparring partners all the time. Ditto for kickboxers, wrestlers, & judoka. MMA should be no different. I understand guys not wanting to fight teammates unless there is a championship on the line, but the idea of turning down a title fight or changing divisions just because your buddy holds the title is ludicrous IMO. Set your friendship aside for 25 minutes, compete, and then move on.
I for one can’t wait to see a potential Overeem-Schilt matchup in K-1. Kudos to Golden Glory for handling it like professionals and not pulling the “teammates won’t fight” card. If Golden GLory can make it work, then so can AKA and Jacksons.
Camps
it also splits the home base up for at least 2 months. Who would Greg Jackson corner? Who’s he going to give more guidance to? I can see how that would be a deal-breaker for these guys. I think it’s up to them, even though it’s frustrating.
Use more judges.
Those are minor issues that can be worked around. If Golden Glory can do it, why can’t Jacksons? If national teams in judo/wrestling can do it, why can’t AKA?
I’m all for the camps shooting down teammate versus teammate as they are working their way up, but once you reach the top of the mountain and two teammates are standing there alone, you need to be willing to set everything aside and determine who is the king of the mountain.
What’s Golden Glory? Is that boxing? I actually think it gets more difficult when you reach the top, because you can’t get there on your own. Your team and their support becomes more important as you rise.
National teams in those sports compete in tournaments (where match-ups are set by the bracket, and in the context of many victories in rapid succession being required for success), and they don’t require that you attempt to beat the other person senseless (in many cases) or otherwise injure them in order to win. I think your points have validity, but MMA is a pretty unique thing. For some guys, it’s easy, for some, it’s impossible.
Use more judges.
Bisping is what he is
He’s durable, hard to finish, hard working, and willing to fight anyone. But he doesn’t have much power and can’t finish anyone. He’s a tweener . . . good enough to beat 2/3 of the division, and the rest of the 1/3 he just doesn’t have the skills.
Vote Quimby
He can't finish anyone?
Of his 20 wins, only four of them are decisions, and those decisions are over Hamill, Leben, Miller and Akiyama, four fighters who have been finished a combined 5 times throughout their careers.
The idea that Bisping can’t finish fights is an illusion.
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by Worldisart on Oct 17, 2010 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
seriously
not knocking out Akiyama isn’t supposed to be a knock on Bisping.
Chris Leben who hits like a fucking truck can’t even do it, so I don’t get why Bisping not stopping him is so disappointing.
Akiyama has a solid solid chin, and Bisping performed very well against him. Sure, he has flaws, but make no mistake about it, this was a very good performance by the Brit.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 17, 2010 1:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Agreed.
This article is ridiculous. If you want to hate bisping because he is a cocky prick, that’s one thing. But the guy is clearly a very talented fighter.
I think he means
Anyone of note. Kang isn’t noteworthy as far as being a legit competitor nor is Jason Day. He was nailing Akiyama at will and couldn’t either capitalize on wobbling him or was content to point it out. I cringed at the first few hard rights he landed until I got used to the fact that Bisping will never lay anyone in the top 10 out. It was a good win but lets be serious here. Put him in there with Anderson, Franklin (if he ever went back), Belfort, Marquardt, Maia or Okami and he’s in for a rough night. I hope he gets Maia, Marquart or Okami next. No reason to have a Wandy rematch
right.
I love Bisping, I’m a fanboy. But I think the ghost of the Matt Hamill fight still haunts him . . .ever more than Hendo because Hendo’s knocked a lot of people out. In many ways that fight has overshadowed his career, even though he lost a similar fight to Rashad Evans.
But I think Bisping is a fearless fighter willing to fight anyone at any time anywhere. That’s to be respected. He takes his roll of the face of British MMA seriously and tries to wear it proud. He has some very good wins in his career.
I think Bisping vs. Maia would be a good fight when Demian gets past Kendall “Da Chokyr” Grove.
Vote Quimby
Maia v Bisping
That seems like as bad a matchup for Maia as it was for Akiyama. Bisping will fall victim to those who can wade in and knock him out. But he is still kryptonite for grapplers.
by judonerd on Oct 17, 2010 4:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bad fight for Maia...
I see him having the same problems Akiyama did in not being able to get close enough to get a solid hold of Bisping, while the Count pitter patters him with shots.
Fighters of note that he has fought
Have reputations for being notoriously difficult to finish. Leben, Miller, Akiyama, Hamill, Henderson, all those fighters have reputations for being next to impossible to stop. So I really don’t get why it’s a knock on Bisping that he didn’t stop those fighters. There are plenty if legitimate criticisms to level against Bisping as a fighter but given that he has a fantastic finishing percentage, certainly well above the average and that the fighters he’s gone to decision with are known for not being finished, I don’t see how him not finishing Akiyama can be viewed as a legitimate gripe about Bisping as a fighter.
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by Worldisart on Oct 17, 2010 2:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But you know who has stopped Leben and Henderson? Anderson Silva, the champ. And former champ Rich Franklin stopped Hamill with a kick to the body.
Its not that people are trying to disparage Bisping for not stopping these guys (people disparage him for many other things), its just that at a certain point being able to finish at least one of those guys is going to separate you from the rest of the pack, and Bisping just can’t seem to do it. Doesn’t make him a bad fighter – he’s far from one, very well-rounded fighter actually. But its starting to look like he legitimately just doesn’t have the power or ability to finish the top-shelf fighters in the division, and it will hold him back.
by sBruce24 on Oct 17, 2010 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
meh
I’ll amend mason’s line to “can’t KO anyone”. He’s very good at swarming on someone and GnP’ing them out, but he’s not able to put away people in one shot, as we’ve seen time and time again.
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by Cory Braiterman on Oct 17, 2010 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
So?
In reality, there are very few fighters in the sport who hav shown consistent one punch KO power, particularly those consistently fighting people in the top ten to top fifteen end of the rankings.
A TKO is as legitimate a finish as a KO and I really think it’s a separate standard being set for Bisping if the gripe against him is lack of one punch power.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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by Worldisart on Oct 17, 2010 2:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, even most who don't have one punch KO power...
Can at least show that they have one punch dropping/rocking power…Bisping doesn’t really seem to have that either.
CPG
by Chris Groves on Oct 17, 2010 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, there’s obviously a separate standard being set for Bisping because when looked at objectively, his skill set and his career accomplishments are pretty impressive. I know it’s the cool thing to hate on him because he’s got a lot of confidence in himself and can be viewed as brash and cocky, but I think it’s time people take the blinders off and give him a fair shake because he’s a pretty good fighter and more often than not he’s involved in some fairly entertaining scraps.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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by Worldisart on Oct 17, 2010 2:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
are they?
his skill set and his career accomplishments are pretty impressive
His biggest wins are against Hammil, Akiyama, Leben (down period Leben, I will add), and Dan Miller. He’s clearly not awful, but his lack of ways to win hold him back from being anywhere near elite.
Brush it off however you want, but he’s obviously no better than a gatekeeper at this point. He’s not shit, but he’s nowhere near the top of the division
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by Cory Braiterman on Oct 17, 2010 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
How about look decent without being so annoying
That would be a good start. Then he wouldn’t the famous artist with the girlie panties on constantly on here defending him!
accomplishments?
Getting a gift decision over Matt Hamill that even the UK crowd booed?
Beating a roided up Leben by Unanimous Decision?
Getting blasted by Henderson’s rocket of a right hand?
Defeating the almighty Denis Kang after getting dropped in the first round?
Losing a CLEAR unanimous decision to a Wanderlei Silva who had lost 5 of his last 6 fights?
Winning a unanimous decision over a Dan Miller who was coming off of 2 losses and dealing with a lot of personal issues?
Winning a unanimous decision over Akiyama, also coming off of a loss, who is known for a bad gas tank?
Bisping’s ‘accomplishments’ aren’t that great, considering Hendo was sqaushed by Jake Shields, a natural welterweight, and that his last THREE opponents have all been coming off of losses, 2 of them multiple losses.
CPG
by Chris Groves on Oct 17, 2010 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Its just lazy criticism
You could write off anyones wins with some of the mindless stuff he’s come up with. Im not arguing that Bisping is a top 5 fighter, but some of the points are ludicrous and are only made because its Bisping.
‘Beating a roided up Leben’-how is that a bad thing?
beating Dan Miller who was coming off two losses- to Chael Sonnen and Demian Maia.
Some bullshit point about Hendo losing to Jake Shields??
Akiyama’s gas tank
Just picking at things that are related to his wins/losses in miniscule ways, which could be applied to anyone (you choose not to like):
Lyoto Machida- Couldn’t finish BJ Penn who’s a lightweight
Lost to Shogun (twice) who lost to Mark Coleman who is old.
Beat David Heath who once lost a fight to his brother even though his brother had a cold….blah blah blah.
"Big guys, small gloves...somebody's gonna fall..." (Gabriel Gonzaga)
“Lyoto Machida- Couldn’t finish BJ Penn who’s a lightweight”
who isnotoriously difficult to finish
“Lost to Shogun (twice) who lost to Mark Coleman who is old.”
lost to shogun once, who broke his arm after a takedown by coleman
CPG
by Chris Groves on Oct 17, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You've just proved my point (which I think you've missed)
You can use/twist people’s records when you see fit. For example you obviously hate Bisping so you try to pick out discrepancies in his wins (accomplishments) to devalue them. You clearly like Machida and so you use the same tactics in the opposite way. If it was Bisping who’d had his arm broken by a takedown you’d probably say something intelligent like ‘he was mauled by Coleman because he has shit takedown defence’
Machida was the first fighter off the top of my head to prove that you can lazily criticise any fighter using factors which are ultimately superseded by the fact they were good enough to win the fight.
"Big guys, small gloves...somebody's gonna fall..." (Gabriel Gonzaga)
Yes, I do hate Bisping, and like Machida and Shogun
But my opinion doesn’t make their competition any better or worse, and it doesn’t make the facts about their fights any different
Shogun did break his arm from a Coleman takedown…it’s not like Coleman broke his arm with a hold. Machida WAS KTFO by Shogun, Bisping’s last 3 opponents HAVE been coming off of losses, Akiyama IS known for bad cardio, Bisping WAS knocked out by Dan Henderson, who DID lose 4 rounds to Jake Shields, who DOES normally fight at welterweight.
I’m not saying things like ‘he only loses to shitty guys who are old’ just like I’m not saying Shogun is always awesome and kicking ass against the best guys. He got choked out by Griffin(and had injuries in that fight) and didn’t look very good against Coleman, he did KTFO of Chuck, which everbody is doing these days, but then he put up a great, close fight against Machida, then he knocked him out in the first round of the rematch.
CPG
by Chris Groves on Oct 17, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you build most of your argument from Wikipedia
According to your record (I can check too), you started watching MMA at UFC 91. I might think you weren’t exactly an authority on Shogun v Coleman, or even Shogun v Griffin. But that would be a bit simplistic. For all I know you spend 8 hours a day trawling through old videos.
What I’m saying is its also ridiculously simplistic for you to write off Bispings wins and also devalue the opponents he has lost to with generalisations and things that have happened in other fights.
Hendo DID lose to Jake Shields- Bisping had wound Hendo up for months previous to their fight. Hendo was probably a bit more pumped/prepared than when he fought what he thought was a blown up welterweight and someone who he is friendly with in a lesser organisation.
Akiyama is known for bad cardio- Just re-hashing whatever Joe Rogan tells you. He’s also known for his heavy hands and world-class Judo but you’ve ignored that.
"Big guys, small gloves...somebody's gonna fall..." (Gabriel Gonzaga)
Oh dear God
I haven’t been a regularly viewing fan for much more than about 2 years…I’m automatically wrong.
CPG
by Chris Groves on Oct 17, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You've clearly not been reading the posts properly.
"Big guys, small gloves...somebody's gonna fall..." (Gabriel Gonzaga)
Im not at all having a go at you for only having watched the UFC for however long you have been doing! I hate the whole elitist mindset.
I was just saying thats what I COULD think if I disgarded anything else as you seem to have with Akiyama.
When all is said and done, Bisping defeated Akiyama overwhelmingly, and gas tank or no gas tank, Akiyama is a decent fighter. Give Bisping his due. If you dont want to, fine, just dont post saying he’s had no legit wins because some of the guys he’s fought have losses, maybe have questionable cardio or they once went to Alaska!!!
"Big guys, small gloves...somebody's gonna fall..." (Gabriel Gonzaga)
He's legit, I just don't think he is much more than a gatekeeper
I don’t buy him as a ‘top guy’
I’ll be the first to admit I expected him to get trashed by Akiyama, and Bisping completely proved me wrong…good on him, but I still don’t believe he’s beaten any of the ‘top’ guys in the division yet.
to break into my top guy list, he’d have to take out someone like Okami, Marquardt, Vitor perhaps…of if he had beat Henderson.
CPG
by Chris Groves on Oct 17, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
screw consistent
I’d like to see it once in a blue moon. I’ll also add in that he can’t or doesn’t sub anyone (when’s the last time he’s even gone for an RNC?) so his options to win are a) decision b) overwhelm with good cardio and precise boxing. That won’t get him to the top of the ladder or keep him there should he manage to ascend.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Oct 17, 2010 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions
It was a bad night, but the glass isn't always half empty.
Hathaway is still only 23 years old, and he just got schooled by solid veteran. He could rebound from this and still do good things.
Hardy has been a little over hyped, but he is still solid, I never see him being a Champ but he got bigger cheers than anyone else in the building last night, even after his loss.
Bisping is in the right division to make a run. He is probably 2 wins away from a title shot. The only issue is that he would have to beat some top 10 guys. His status as a draw, and the fact that Anderson Silva has beaten so many other people in the division makes him getting a title shot a reality.
Paul Sass had a nice submission, but watching his style made me think he is going to have some issues with some of the top control guys who can punish someone who shoots and then goes straight to his back.
Anyone else think the camera work for the main event was off?
At times the shot seemed too close, cutting off a leg or even part of Bisping’s head at one point in time. It was weirdly unsettling. I wonder if they used local talent to man the ringside cameras this time.
by muppetsarntpuppets on Oct 17, 2010 2:08 AM EDT reply actions
Not a good day fro British MMA indeed
Mcsweeney, Warburton, Sass, Broughton, Wilks, Hathaway, Hardy, Bisping.
Thats 8 British fighters on the card. Only 3, Sass, Broughton, and Bisping were able to win their fights. Considering 2 of the winners were on the prelims, and 3 of the losers were on the main card…that kinda gives an overall message about British fighters and the higher level of competition.
CPG
I don't think anything else could be expected from McSweeney...
I hope he gets cut after this. He’s just not that good.
Wilks is a bust!
I didn’t think much of him in TUF and I have not been impressed with him in the UFC.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 17, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Bisping solidifies his status
As a glorified gatekeeper, I wish Akiyama would try to fight in Welterweight.
Dan hardy was put to sleep, he should focus on finding holes in the gameplans of greg jackson fighters instead of criticizing them, they are all deadly fighters and are trained to their strengths.
I was surprised by the Hathaway fight, when I saw what he did to Sanchez I was in disbelief, but the aftermath of knowing that Diego wasn’t the nightmare that night makes sense.
I was rooting for my boy Akiyama, till I saw Hardy get KTFO and Hathaway being schooled by Pyle on the ground.
Then I know, for the sake of British MMA, Bisping MUST win.
No one likes to leave a fight event sour after seeing their countrymen’s asses kicked for past few hours. Thank God for Bisping for not leaving the spectators feeling pissed.
Anyone wanna bet that Dana will be pushing Sass as the next big thing from Britian soon?
God I hope not. The loser of Shields-Kampmann would be a step up from Condit. Hardy needs a rebound fight. Give him Pyle
Proud member of the newly established Frankie Edgar bandwagon
Cain will beat Brock, I am accepting sig bets.
by KingAtRock on Oct 17, 2010 4:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What about Hardy-Lytle?
Very winnable for Hardy, and FOTN potential.
Buster Posey>
"I thought he was going to punch me and I was totally accepting of it. I was planning a reason to thank him if he did." Brian Wilson on Buster Posey
A disturbing comparison
How far away is Bisping from being a middleweight version of Frankie Edgar? He has the speed, and almost all of his big wins in the UFC have come by decision.
No
Bisping doesn’t have half the footwork that Edgar does. Bisping is quick and active, but when it comes to defending strikes he falters.
Proud member of the newly established Frankie Edgar bandwagon
Cain will beat Brock, I am accepting sig bets.
by KingAtRock on Oct 17, 2010 4:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Against which fighters ahead of him would he have to worry about his footwork? Okami’s boxing looked good in his last fight, but I think Bisping can out point him with the speed advantage. I think he can stay away from Maia also. Vitor Belfort in good shape is the superior striker, but he hasn’t fought in 2010, he’s been fighting since 1996 and who knows how he looks after Anderson. Anderson could be nearing retirement or he could be tied up with a GSP superfight and just sidestep him altogether.
That leaves Sonnen and Marquardt.
Sure, that’s a fair amount of speculation, but his path to the belt looks more realistic if you go fighter by fighter. I’m just dreaming up a perfect storm for grins.
Bisping would lose to everyone you hustling
Proud member of the newly established Frankie Edgar bandwagon
Cain will beat Brock, I am accepting sig bets.
by KingAtRock on Oct 17, 2010 1:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bahaha ignore this post, I'm on my iPod
Proud member of the newly established Frankie Edgar bandwagon
Cain will beat Brock, I am accepting sig bets.
by KingAtRock on Oct 17, 2010 1:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bisping would lose to everyone you just listed
Vitor would murder Bisping, Okami would grind him out, and Maia has more than enough skill to take Bisping down.
Proud member of the newly established Frankie Edgar bandwagon
Cain will beat Brock, I am accepting sig bets.
by KingAtRock on Oct 17, 2010 1:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Okami would have to catch him. He just seems like the type of guy Bisping’s been able to beat: a bit slower and tough to finish.
I’m not sold on Maia taking down a Bisping that’s hellbent on standing. Plus Maia doesn’t have the striking to exploit Bisping’s technical deficiencies. Bisping’s guard might also be good enough to survive.
Vitor’s a tougher sell, I know. He’s a great talent and he’s accomplished some great things. I look at where he’s at now and he just seems like a total x-factor with his age, ring rust, how long he’s been fighting, who he’s beat recently. Keep in mind his Silva fight is in February, and if you tack on the six months or so until his next fight… you’re looking at an old dude in fight years.
Hasn't anyone mentioned?
Sexyama walk-out Music of “Por ti Volar” is one of the best walk-out songs ever?
by Guillermo Ponce on Oct 17, 2010 4:50 AM EDT reply actions
I know this would require Akiyama to drop to 170 but I would love to see
Akiyama v. Hardy
"I say after someone throws a punch isn't everything else the rest of the night a counter?.......Kinda?"
Mike Goldberg
UnintelligentDefense.blogspot.com
In the post fight videos Dana was asked his opinion on Akiyama dropping down. His response if you haven’t seen it was basically that he’d like him to and has for a long time.
So maybe we can see it happen eventually since as far as I recall Akiyama doesn’t really drop much weight (if any) to hit 185. Some great matches for him and for us as fans at 170 imo.
by Empty Thoughts on Oct 17, 2010 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It ll depends on whether Akiyama has any interest in dropping down. Hopefully, losing two out of three will convince him that MW is not the weight for him. But Japanese guys have been known to be pretty damn stubborn when it comes to cutting weight.
Yep, that’s the problem right there. Asians in general are still very reluctant to cut weight even when it means possibly seeing vastly superier results.
by Empty Thoughts on Oct 17, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Condit beat him to the punch time and again, scoring the crisper punches and landing a succession of leg kicks.
Eh? What fight were you watching?
Hardy was getting the better of the standup game, early and landed the much better leg kicks in the early stages.
Obviously that doesn’t matter in terms of the result, as Hardy got predictable in trying to counter with a left hook, Condit timed it, and threw his own, more accurate hook that put Hardy out. I just don’t see why you feel the need to falsely describe how the fight went, in order to make your point.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Oct 17, 2010 6:19 AM EDT reply actions
Hardy did land some nice leg kicks
But I don’t think he was necessarily getting the better of the standup. He landed a hook or two but Condit was landing well also. Condit out leg-kicked him too.
Forever indebted to CroCop's left leg for getting me into MMA
by Well Read Idiot on Oct 17, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Condit's were MUCH better!
I felt he was only throwing them in response to Condit, but that was not his gameplan.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 17, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Paul Sass's
stand up looked awkward and made me smile to myself to be honest.He just looked herky jerky and off balance like it didn’t come at all naturally to him.
He may have BJJ but so does James Wilks and Wilks showed last night and in his fight before that that alone will only get you so far.
...
It’s like youre in my head, snowden!
"I’m anti-stalling, not anti-wrestling." - lowellthehammer
by JaeeJaee on Oct 17, 2010 8:03 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Bisping unloaded punch after punch on an exhausted Akiyama and never once rattled him. It was enough to win on points, but his inability to hurt his opponents will come back to haunt the Manchester born fighter in future fights.
I’d say Bisping’s performances have him safely ensconced at gatekeeper level. I fully expect the UFC to give him a title shot, they’re just waiting for an excuse, especially if he can pull off a Dan Hardy-like streak. I just the current champ and the top contenders right now all beating him.
Hardy was supposed to be the dangerous striker; Condit was the grappler from Greg Jackson’s camp who was going to stifle him. Instead, Condit beat him to the punch time and again, scoring the crisper punches and landing a succession of leg kicks. His amazing left hand is one for the highlight reels – more than anything it highlights that Hardy belongs in the middle of the pack at 170, not at his lofty position in the top 10.
I expected Condit to beat him, but not so decisively on the feet. Now that the area where he’s supposed to be strongest has been taken away from him, I wonder how much his standing in the division will be altered due to this fight. I’m especially curious to see who they give Hardy for his next fight. For Condit I imagine it will be onwards and upwards.
While Hardy and Bisping are the “now” fighters in England, John Hathaway was supposed to be the future. An upset win over Diego Sanchez had many proclaiming the young Brit to be a future champion. I was at that fight and saw it differently. I saw a Diego Sanchez who looked disinterested and out of shape. Hathaway didn’t wow me – he just took what Diego offered on a silver platter. After, it was confirmed to me that Sanchez had some issues. He’s back at Greg Jackson’s gym now and looking to put things back together.
You called this one on the fight picks. A lot of people, myself included, overvalued Hathaway’s performance against a Diego Sanchez floating between weight classes and not training up to par. He could still rebound, but I imagine any road to the top for Hathaway will be far more arduous than people thought it would be.
I didn't see it the same
I thought the Hardy – Condit was a seesaw match, up until the near-Rocky Balboa punch. If Condit had been knocking him from stem to stern, yeah, sure, but Condit being faster on the big punch doesn’t destine Hardy to the scrap heap. I’ve seen too many fighters lose in a tough way and come back stronger.
I underestimated Condit in this match, but I’m still not sold on him as an elite fighter.
Beat me to it.
You don’t need scholastic wrestling to be a champion.
GSP, Anderson Silva, Shogun Rua, and Jose Aldo do just fine without a wrestling background.
What you absolutely do need to be a champion is an internal locus of control.
You have to believe that your actions and your actions alone are the key to your success, and put absolutely no stock in the idea that there are things you can’t control. Too many British fighters worry WAY too much about what other guys are doing or about what the rules are or how the judges see things, and not enough about how to overcome those things.
Champions see obstacles as a personal challenge for them to smash through. Losers see obstacles as something placed in their way by external forces that they cannot control.
i'm mostly with you
but even someone who has an internal locus of control would recognize that there a lot of things that they can’t control. I agree that accepting things how they are and working to overcome them is a defining characteristic of people who achieve excellence, but your last two sentences are not mutually exclusive. It’s very possible, and more realistic, to see obstacles as things that are placed in your way by forces you can’t control, and as challenges to smash through.
It’s not the interpretation of the situation, it’s the reaction to it.
Use more judges.
I think he is saying that they don' have a well-rounded fight game.
And it hurts them against opponents who do have a wrestling background.
It seems that many UK fighters have a problem with wrestlers. That’s not to say that they can’t win the fight, but it does pose a problem.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 17, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree!
I’ve said that for years!
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 17, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Bisping is solid but he isn’t going anywhere in the division. He beats the guys in the middle of the pack but when he steps up to the guys at the top of the division he hasn’t got it done. Good fighter but if you want to be a great fighter you have to take that next step(and you need to finish the mid-tier guys not just outpoint them).
Dan Hardy is still who people thought he was, when you exclusively stand and bang sometimes you are going to get caught. He’s a good fighter with huge holes in his game. His drawing power is based as much on his personality and he showed droves of that last night too. He’s not getting any more title shots unless he works on his game a lot but he will still be a draw in the UK.
Hathaway was just over-rated to start with and that was brought to light last night.
rank the middleweight division then
no offense, just for my interest. its a hard one to rank
by theworldismine on Oct 17, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
#1 Anderson Silva
#2-25 – Assortment of fighters who would lose to Anderson Silva.
Michael Robinson leads the Seahawks in completion percentage, yards-per-attempt, and QB rating.
by SSreporters on Oct 17, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Ha!
This ^
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 17, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t try to rank guys myself, there are plenty of rankings to be had out there mad by smarter people than me. Lets pull the SB Nation rankings:
1 Anderson Silva 100 UFC 1
2 Chael Sonnen 94 UFC 2
3 Nate Marquardt 87 UFC 4
4 Jake Shields 84 UFC 3
5 Vitor Belfort 78 UFC 5
6 Demian Maia 78 UFC 6
7 Dan Henderson 74 Strikeforce 7
8 Yushin Okami 68 UFC 8
9 Jorge Santiago 64 WVR 9
10 Ronaldo Souza 57 Strikeforce 10
11 Robbie Lawler 48 Strikeforce 11
12 Michael Bisping 42 UFC 12
13 Chris Leben 41 UFC 13
14 Alan Belcher 41 UFC 15
15 Wanderlei Silva 35 UFC 14
16 Mamed Khalidov 27 KSW 16
17 Yoshihiro Akiyama 25 UFC 17
18 Hector Lombard 23 Bellator 20
19 Paulo Filho 22 Impact Fighting Championship 18
20 Alessio Sakara 20 UFC 19
21 Thales Leites 19 Powerhouse World Promotions 21
22 Patrick Cote 13 UFC 25
23 Kazuo Misaki 13 WVR 23
24 Tim Kennedy 13 Strikeforce 25
25 Rousimar Palhares 11 UFC 22
Does anyone expect Bisping to move up after winning on points against Akiyama? Does anyone ever see Bisping breaking that top five and challenging for a title(which is the entire point of the sport)? He’s going to linger in the area of the top ten but can he make that next step against the elite of the division and does he actually stand a chance of ever winning a belt(which is the goal of the sport)? He isn’t beating Silva, that’s a given but could he beat Sonnen or Marquardt or Belfort? Can he get by Okami or Maia? He hasn’t shown me anything that leads me to believe he can yet. Lets look at what he has done in middleweight so far:
Win 20-3 Yoshihiro Akiyama Decision (Unanimous)
Win 19-3 Dan Miller Decision (Unanimous)
Loss 18-3 Wanderlei Silva Decision (Unanimous)
Win 18-2 Denis Kang TKO (Strikes)
Loss 17-2 Dan Henderson KO (Punch)
Win 17-1 Chris Leben Decision (Unanimous)
Win 16-1 Jason Day TKO (Punches)
Win 15-1 Charles McCarthy TKO (Arm Injury)
so…… he’s out pointed Chris Leben, Akiyama and……. well……. that’s about it. Day and Kang are out of the UFC, McCarthy is out of the sport and Dan Miller’s personal issues have been well reported. Dan Henderson was exposed by welterweight Jake Shields and he was Wanderlei’s first win since 2008(he’s lost 5 of his last 7). There is no shame in losing to either of those two legends of the sport but those are the fights you need to be winning if you are going to step up to the next level in the division. Bisping is a very good fighter but if you want to compete for a title belt good isn’t good enough. Does anyone think that Bisping is a “great” fighter?
dont know about santiago, souza and lawler
by theworldismine on Oct 17, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Bisping isn’t going to be fighting any of those guys any time soon anyway. They are irrelevant to him trying (and failing) to get a title shot.
the goal of the sport
Maybe a separate conversation, but two thoughts:
a) These guys fight for a lot of reasons. If everyone who wasn’t top-tier or would never win a title had to quit fighting, we’d have a very small sport. A lot of guys fight because they love it, they want to make money or girls, they like the challenge, they want to get better, and a million other reasons. I agree that Bisping isn’t going to wade through the top of the division, and wouldn’t hold the belt for long if he did.
b) I don’t like the “title” system very much and would much rather see long-term, stand-alone tournaments like most other sports in which someone is named the winner of a certain tournament, and then another tournament begins (like the fact that Mirko is the 2006 Pride Open Weight Grand Prix winner). That’s cool. Could Bisping put together a tournament run? (He’d need a good draw, but he might outpoint Okami and stay on the feet against Maia.) Meh. Maybe not, but I think it would be more interesting to say that he made it to the Semi-finals one year rather than just estimation that he’s a decent gate-keeper.
The tournament format also would give these guys a regular chance to reset their training and have a more structured schedule.
Sorry, larger topic.
Use more judges.
Alright then....
Let’s have a look at Santiago’s last few wins.
Misaki’s biggest win is Kang in a gift decision. Khalidov, Salmon, Bahadurzada and Clark haven’t ever beaten anyone of note outside of Khalidov’s own win over Santiago. Jeremy Horn is shot as a top fighter and Nakamura hasn’t done anything noteworthy in years. So effectively he’s ranked at #9 because he beat Misaki twice? Meanwhile Bisping is stuck at #12 despite consistently fighting guys who are fighting top opponents constantly and doing very well and somehow Wanderlei – who beat #12 Bisping – is stuck at #15! It’s retarded.
Perfect.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 17, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't like the guy's personality
But you guys are totally full of crap about Bisping not being a top MW. He’s lost 3 times in 20 fights. 2 of those losses are questionable decisions, ‘questionable’ meaning not everyone agrees that he lost. So in 20 fights hes lost to R.Evans, W. Silva and D. Henderson…..wow what a terrible fighter. Out of his wins, he’s only won by decision 4 times!! I’m not a Bisping lover, but objectively, you guys a full of crap.
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"Let's do a quick fight analysis: I was ready to go the distance with Cyrille, I knew that he was a good striker, decent on the ground and hard to knock out. When the fight started I right away felt that my punches and combos were hitting him and that he couldn't keep up with my pace. The game plan was to take him down and be on top striking, but during the fight I felt that it was going so well, so I kept boxing with him. In the second round I took him down, got on top, he had a strong under hook but I managed to sprawl, established mount and took him out with a rear naked choke on the third attempt, I don't think it was sunk in either but he didn't want to be in the fight any more. I did some small mistakes that I will fix for my next fight.
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