Dana White's Nightmare: Imagining the AKA Era on Top of the UFC
There's a lot to be happy about if you live and work in the UFC bubble. While television ratings are down, pay per view revenue is at an all-time high, despite many fans facing uncertain economic times. Two of the biggest and best draws in the sport's history sit atop their respective divisions. On top of a third division is, perhaps, the best fighter the sport has ever seen. But besides a bad flop of cards at the poker table, there is one set of circumstances that must give UFC President Dana White nightmares. Imagine, if you will, this very scary scenario - downright frightening if you are making a living with Zuffa:
1. Cain Velasquez beats Brock Lesnar later this month: The UFC is promoting the possibility of crowning the first Mexican heavyweight champion in combat sports history. Never mind that Velasquez was born and raised in the United States. They are hoping it's a moot point. Lesnar has single handedly led a record setting boom in business, raising the sport up on his massive shoulders and then propelling it forward with the force of his personality and incredible physical charisma. Lesnar losing in anything less than a spectacular fight is horrible for the UFC's long-term prognosis.
2. Josh Koscheck beats Georges St. Pierre: Not only has the rematch between Koscheck and the champion St. Pierre pulled two very popular fighters out of the rotation as they film a season of reality television, there is also a very real chance that Koscheck can pull this off. In the first fight, Koscheck didn't respect the Canadian's wrestling nearly enough. He was confident that his pedigree and years of training would make him immune to the takedown. That, as we saw, wasn't the case. This time, Koscheck will focus on his strengths and we may see the champion flounder on his back. Three years have passed since the two first did battle. That's three years of marked improvement by a former NCAA wrestling champion. Thousands of screaming Montreal fans may be silenced this winter by the fighter with the skill set in place to dethrone the champion.
3. Jon Fitch goes up to 185 and takes the title from Anderson Silva: Jon Fitch has come up just short time and again in the UFC's welterweight division. He's gotten a single opportunity to win the title, a valiant Fight of the Night loss to St. Pierre. Fitch will not fight his teammate Koscheck should Josh take the title from St.Pierre. That means a jump to 185 pounds, a division where the former Purdue standout might actually be better off and better suited to take home UFC gold. Champion Anderson Silva has shown a vulnerability to dominant wrestlers - and if Fitch gets on top he's unlikely to be caught the way Chael Sonnen was. Since his first fight against Mike Pyle, no one has made Fitch tap the mat. Fitch could very easily grind out a win over the more talented Silva and give AKA a triumvirate of champions.
It would be bad enough for three of the sport's most popular and talented champions to lose to less well known challengers. But for them all to be under the American Kickboxing Academy's banner? That would be worst of all. Why? More after the break.
Tito Ortiz has always been a thorn in Dana White's side. The company took Ken Shamrock to court. There's no love lost between Zuffa and former welterweight champion Pat Miletich or former light heavyweight kingpin Frank Shamrock. But the most intense feud inside the MMA business is actually between Zuffa and AKA's management team of DeWayne Zinkin and Bob Cook.
It all started with Sean Sherk. A talented wrestler, Sherk was rewarded for his three UFC wins with a title fight against Matt Hughes at UFC 42. The problem? Sherk's contract expired just a week prior to the bout. The UFC and Sherk's manager Zinkin worked out a deal for a generous raise and the fight was scheduled for April 25, 2003. But Sherk never signed the new contract and Zinkin demanded more and more. He wanted the new contract, that was a given, but he asked for the original payday as well. The UFC was in a bind. Sherk got his money, but at a cost. When he lost the fight to Hughes, he was immediately cut. Out to send a message, the UFC wouldn't employ one of the sport's very best for almost two and a half years.
The resentment was buried under the surface for years as Cook and Zinkin built one of the sport's top teams in San Jose. In addition to the crew in San Jose, Zinkin represents Chuck Liddell and Forrest Griffin, two of the UFC's most popular and influential fighters. Resentment simmered in every negotiation, with some inside Zuffa refusing to speak to Zinkin. Things exploded in 2008 when the UFC pressured fighters to sign over their rights for a video game that would become UFC Undisputed. Many fighters ended up getting $5000 checks for the game, but AKA fighter Jon Fitch was dubious about signing away his likeness for next to nothing. White exploded:
"We're looking for guys who want to work with us and not against us, and frankly I'm just so [expletive] sick of this [expletive] it's not even funny," White said from Honolulu, where he flew Wednesday from Toronto to hold a news conference to announce the B.J. Penn-Georges St. Pierre fight for UFC 94 on Jan. 31 in Las Vegas.
"Affliction is still out there trying to build its company. Let [Fitch] go work with them. Let him see what he thinks of those [expletives]. [Expletive] him. These guys aren't partners with us. [Expletive] them. All of them, every last [expletive] one of them."
The situation escalated to the point that White was willing to cut all of the AKA fighters, including rising star Cain Velasquez. AKA fighters had previously angered White when they rejected another business proposal that they saw as not in their best interest. Sam Caplan had some of the details at Five Ounces of Pain:
In the past, the UFC also tried to encourage its fighters to sign a marketing deal that would award the company with all rights to fighter likenesses. The complaint from many managers was that the deal offered limited returns in exchange for lifetime rights and that the managers themselves could be cut out of the deal. The goal of the UFC apparently was to get all the fighters to sign everything over and then a portion of all the income earned from licensing deals would be distributed through a monthly check that would go straight to the fighters. It was a deal that few in the industry felt was fair.
Cook and Zinkin called him on his bluff and were willing to walk away as a group and take their chances elsewhere. Cooler heads eventually prevailed and AKA was back in the fold. But the relationship is tenuous at best. Now imagine Zinkin's crew holding not one, but multiple UFC title belts. Their collective bargaining power, even if they only win two championships, would be staggering - and they've shown a willingness to take on the machine. For Dana White, it's the stuff nightmares are made of.
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Honestly, I think it’s overblown.
Koz, Chuck, Forrest…they seem to all have great relationships with the UFC. (Koz has had a few issues, but overall he seems to be a company man.) Sherk seems to have a great relationship now.
Fitch has issues, but I think it has a lot to do with his style. He is an organizations worst nightmare and everyone knows it. He could only be less marketable if he didn’t speak english. (I’m looking at you, Okami.)
Having said that, it is certainly never in any organizations best interest to have their best fighters under one management company and even worse if it is a company you have had issues with. However, the UFC has proven an amazing litigator and if AKA wants to hold out it’s fighters, they will be in for a war.
Yeah
The only fighter I can see really having any negotiating leverage is Cain, and Zuffa will probably pay him whatever he wants if he’s able to beat Brock. Dana would rather see Fitch and Kos try their luck with SF rather than risk being in a similar situation with them, regardless of how many wins they accumulate.
With multiple champions comes leverage for all those guys. It’s collective power.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I just cant think of
any situation in the past that would give you that idea. What power would they have? Belts don’t automatically make a fighter more marketable, so I’m not really sure why Dana theoretically couldn’t just cut Kos and Fitch and pay a gazillion dollars to Cain, even if they were all champions.
It might have very well been a bluff but I felt like Dana was serious when he said he would be willing to cut Anderson if he kept goofing around.
We’ve seen how bad UFC castoffs have had it lately.. To me, the risk of that stigma is the ultimate trump card.
cutting multiple champions over contract disputes
would kill any chance the UFC has of establishing a de facto monopoly. That would become a mainstream news story.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Oct 13, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Maybe
But what could they get out of that power? Can you imagine if they all collectively tried to hold out for something? They would be vilified in the press. Nobody likes a champion who refuses to fight, and if you think Dana and Co. wouldn’t be pressing that angle of the story hard, you clearly don’t know much about the UFC. However you’re a smart fellow, so you could see how Dana would play that.
by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Oct 13, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
If they got cut and say Strikeforce pulled in enough loans to sign all 3
Strikeforce is likely considered the #1 organization in terms of the sport. The UFC’s status at the top would be dead. That might not be feasible from a business standpoint for SF, but any negotiator worth a lick would be able to bend the UFC over relative to their current pay.
Not afraid to nitpick
Well that would never happen
I think Dana is too vindictive to do that. Rather, I’d put money on us seeing the first ever UFC title defended on the undercard. I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t get cut until after getting demolished a few times so they’re damaged goods. You have to expect them to have championship clauses and all kinds of other goodies like that in their contracts that will help Dana call their bluff.
by CaliforniaCreamPuff on Oct 13, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
However, NONE of them are champions yet, anyway.
I understand that part of journalism is to speculate on the future, but the assumptions required (that all 3 guys will be champs AND that they will then team up and cause issue with the UFC) are pretty huge. Just because they are a team, doesn’t mean they all would stick together. (See how Mike Swick handled the video game situation.)
You don’t hear Brock, GSP, Edgar, Shogun, Anderson, or even BJ complaining. Champs making millions in PPV buys tend to not complain. If all three of these guys are making championship money, I doubt you are going to hear much whining. I could be wrong, Randy tried to leave when he was champ…BUT, Affliction was offering ridiculous money, crazy money. Will SF be doing that? Very doubtful.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Oct 13, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe AKA can hire Monte Cox
He seems to be able to fill both fighters and organizations with the half baked notion that they can go counter to UFC and compete. I imagine he is on the phone with them right now after reading this piece. He never misses an opportunity.
Very Happy you wrote this story
It’s a good one. Especially explaining what happened to Sherk.
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Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
Interesting thought, Snowden
It would be a pretty interesting dilemma that I think Dana would not be prepared to handle at this junction.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
by ChicagoMarine on Oct 13, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
So did the AKA guys end up selling their rights away for 5K, or did they get more?
I can’t see it being a big problem if all 3 were champion, I just see it being a problem if they had to re-negotiate a contract with any of them being a champion at the same time.
It would be awesome to be a fly on the wall in a negotiation between this Zinkin fellow and Dana/Zuffa, I bet it’s just f bombs, doors slamming and water bottles being thrown.
and water bottles being thrown
What’s Nick Diaz doing there? Is he their chief negotiator now?
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
I was enjoying this artice until i read the 3rd scenario.Now way does the snooze-inducing Fitch beat Silva.
Maybe i could see the slight possibility of it happening were Fitch a full middleweight,but he isn’t and Silva is a BIG middleweight.
No way on God’s green earth does Silva lose to Fitch so i think we can all sleep easy as that would have been the worst of the 3 scenarios.
Yeah, I agree.
People seem to think that because Fitch is arguably a better MMA wrestler, or at least a more successful one, that he could do to Silva what Sonnen did and actually win. The problem is, just think back to the GSP fight. Fitch had nothing for him standing, and got battered. What worked so well for Sonnen is the antithesis of Jon Fitch – constant (and sometimes) reckless aggression.
Yeah,Fitch might get em down to the mat but he does f**k all once he has them there.
I think Silva would be able to get back up and keep it on the feet for at least part of the time,mainly through his size and strength advantages.He would hurt Fitch standing,imo and eventually stop him.
by Matt Mosley on Oct 13, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt that
Silva has shown no serious ability to get back to his feet, and the majority of his defensive guard consists of trying to get stood up.
I have long said Fitch had a better chance at winning the title at MW than he does at WW, as does Shields.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe i am hoping more than anything. :)
I would give Shields a better shot at beating Silva than i would the dreadful Fitch.Shields has a bit more to his game than lay and pray,from what i have seen.
I would still pick Silva over either though i don’t doubt there are more shrewd MMA observers than on here than i.
by Matt Mosley on Oct 13, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I would pick Silva via his "heart of a champion"
Much like in the Sonnen fight, there would be no objective area I could pick for him to win, but I’d like to believe he would somehow find a way.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me get this straight
You see “no objective area” in which Anderson Silva, at true MW and arguably the greatest fighter in the history of the sport, could beat Jon Fitch, a puffed up MW with no finishing capability?
Well that makes sense.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Silva would get owned like he almost was by Sonnen. Silva CANNOT handle wrestlers. Luckily for him he faced one who hasn’t learned what a triangle is in 40 some fights. This is a guy who got repeatedly taken down by a LW in pride. People try to pretend like his tdd has improved since then but it’s still bad.
He handled Dan Henderson pretty good and you must of already forgotten than Sonnen just tested positive for a drug which increases agression,among other things.
Dan Henderson
Is not an MMA wrestler, and hasn’t really attempted to be one for a decade or more…great amateur wrestling career, for whatever reasons he does not use it offensively in MMA…
Sonnen fought like he generally does, but Anderson has the same vulnerability to high level wrestling that the other elite MT/BJJ guys have, the difference is Sonnen is more old school Mark Coleman than new school GSP in his wrestling.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Henderson’s main skill is wrestling,so is Fitch’s.The guy above said Silva had trouble with wrestlers.He choked Hendo out in 2.
Until an appeal proves otherwise the Sonnen “performance” against Silva counts for jack shit.It was a perforance enhanced Sonnen,obviously.
No, its not
Hendo’s background is wrestling, but he has almost never used it offensively in his MMA career, preferring to be a stand-and-bang brawler.
He did have a great amateur career from the late 80’s until the early to mid 90’s, but that was a long time ago.
Of course, he is a greco guy, so he does his best work from the clinch anyway and has never been a threat to shoot and power double guys down…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it is
And you are starting to come across as arrogant to be honest.
I have watched plenty of Hendo in Pride and seen him takes loads of opponents down.
He wrestled with Silva in their fight in case you hadn’t noticed.
Not sure how I am coming across as arrogant, but…
In the Silva fight, he did take him down in the first, from the clinch, using his greco, and had great success on the ground until he gassed.
Aside from times he has done so from the clinch, what fights specifically are you talking about where Henderson has used his wrestling as part of his offense?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Aside from times he has
done so from the clinchwrestled effectively, what fights specifically are you talking about where Henderson has used his wrestling as part of his offense?
You are good at moving goal posts. First Hendo isn’t a wrestler. But that doesn’t make sense, he clearly is a wrestler. Even you admit it.
Oh he’s a greco guy not a freestyle guy. Aside from that not being what you started out arguing, whether greco or freestyle, both are styles of… wrestling. Guess only doubles and singles count as “MMA wrestling” by your standard.
Having said all that, I don’t know if Silva has what it takes to beat a human blanket who tries to turn the fight into grinding borefest (Fitch and Shields). We might get to find out. After Vitor, who else is left buy wrestlers/grapplers?
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Oct 13, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Context fail
In my first comment regarding Hendo I said:
Dan Henderson is not an MMA wrestler, and hasn’t really attempted to be one for a decade or more…great amateur wrestling career, for whatever reasons he does not use it offensively in MMA…
I am not speaking of whether he has ever used his wrestling effectively in an MMA fight, the context was whether he is an MMA Wrestler…and he is not an MMA Wrestler and hasn’t looked to use wrestling offensively or as his first option in ages, if ever, and only occasionally (out of necessity) has he used it at all.
Having said all that, I don’t know if Silva has what it takes to beat a human blanket who tries to turn the fight into grinding borefest (Fitch and Shields). We might get to find out. After Vitor, who else is left buy wrestlers/grapplers?
With the possible exception of Okami, there are no others wrestlers at MW, and Anderson has already shown he has no problem staying on his feet against the non-wrestling grapplers.
The difference between Sonnen and Fitch or Shields in regards to Anderson is their submission defense – they will not get caught like Sonnen did, and Shields might submit Anderson himself.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Shitty argument fail.
Dan Henderson is not an MMA wrestler, and hasn’t really attempted to be one for a decade or more…great amateur wrestling career, for whatever reasons he does not use it offensively in MMA…
Of course, he is a greco guy, so he does his best work from the clinch anyway and has never been a threat to shoot and power double guys down…
Aside from times he has done so from the clinch, what fights specifically are you talking about where Henderson has used his wrestling as part of his offense?
You moved the goalpost. You ask someone to demonstrate that Hendo is an MMA wrestler, and basically say you won’t take any wrestling he does from the clinch as evidence.
So if your argument is “only guys that threaten with doubles and singles” are MMA wrestlers, fine. Hendo isn’t an MMA wrestler. But if your definition is guys who effectively use wrestling in an MMA match, Hendo’s clinchwork, by your own admission, is more than enough to qualify him.
Shields almost got KO’d in the first round by Henderson. You really think Anderson can’t KO him? GSP kept Fitch at the perimeter for the better 5 rounds. You don’t think Anderson could do the same? Saying that Anderson has nothing for wrestlers, specifically Shields and Fitch, is odd considering how they (Shields and Fitch) were both exposed to be extremely vulnerable to good striking. The gameplan for victories against these guys has already been laid out.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Oct 13, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
The gameplan for victory against those guys (Fitch and Shields)
Has already been laid out…unfortunately for Anderson, the surest way to beat them is to force them to keep it standing, something he and his mediocre at best TDD is unlikely to be able to do.
And in my view, an MMA Wrestler is someone who’s gameplan revolves around a wrestling-based attack, has high level takedowns and TDD, good or better submission offense and defense, solid GnP and the ability and willingness to actively pass / improve position.
Hendo is a guy more like Liddell than GSP – one who uses his wrestling only defensively trying to stay on the feet or when stuck with no other option.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 14, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Your standard is pretty high (completely omits any wrestling from the clinch), but I see your point. Lots of guys that I previously considered wrestlers would get knocked off that list by at least one of your criteria.
Regarding Anderson vs an mma wrestler… I just want to see it happen. He’s ran through everyone at middleweight. People giving him no chance (Shields UD easily) make me laugh. People definitely said he would lose to “the elite mma wrestler” Chael Sonnen, and a lot of those people are convinced that Sonnen still “won”.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Oct 14, 2010 8:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There are only a handful of guys I would consider even or slight favorites against Anderson. Shogun, GSP, Jones and probably Phil Davis after 2-3 more fights.
Others who have a more than decent chance, but I certainly wouldn’t bet on include Fitch, Shields and Rashad – guys who, for all of their skill, are not athletic and dynamic enough to have a clear advantage. It would not surprise me if they won, but it would not surprise me if they lost either.
Sonnen’s seeming predisposition to getting submitted keeps him out, and I suspect Anderson will have a somewhat easier time with him the next go around, although it will still look very one-sided at times.
One of the often overlooked results of Sonnen-Silva is that Anderson actually showed pretty decent defensive wrestling at times, and Sonnen, for all of his faults, has one of the better takedown games imo. I went back and watched the Okami fight again, and although Okami’s takedowns were fairly half-assed for the most part, Anderson showed a sprawl that I haven’t really seen since – maybe his knees really are somewhat shot as I have heard speculated elsewhere.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 14, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
As for the MMA Wrestler part
In my mind I consider even guys who are very high level wrestlers and who use it primarily (and effectively) in MMA (Sonnen, Maynard) as not being true new school MMA Wrestlers because of the glaring holes in their games that make them so vulnerable to the elite BJJ players.
It is somewhat semantics I suppose, but I don’t have a better name for them to properly separate them from the old school (Coleman-esq) wrestlers.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 14, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
To suggest that all PEDs or steroids increase aggression is idiocy. Neither HGH nor EPO increases aggression and to the best of my knowledge, the EXACT thing Sonnen tested positive for was never revealed
by disinferno06 on Oct 14, 2010 6:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
HGH and EPO don’t quadruple the amount of testosterone in your system though…
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Oct 14, 2010 8:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Anabolic steroids generally do in most people, the others of course do not. Sonnen was pretty aggressive against Marquardt though, and he passed (which doesn’t necessarily mean anything as far as using).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 14, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I do appreciate how you’re not allowing the little matters of Sonnen a) losing and b) cheating affect your narrative about how Silva is overrated and helpless at the hands of any talented wrestler.
Fitch may lay on and control Silva for some portion of a 25 minute fight, but we know he doesn’t have the tools to finish anyone good, and eventually he’s gonna get lit up. His boxing is worse than Chael’s and even Chael ate a couple of nasty shots in his fight with an injured Silva.
I’ll tell you what though, if this fight comes to pass, I’m happy to bet it with you straight up, no odds, and you can name the terms.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Fitch has decent stand-up, although not remotely in Silva’s realm. However, unlike Sonnen, he has solid submission defense and Anderson would be highly unlikely to submit him.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew the Anderson excuse train would b rolling out of the station. ROIDS ROIDS INJURED AND STILL WON blah blah blah. Sonnen took down Silva without even trying, and could have done it roids or not, injured rib or not. Anderson is physically weak, something Marquardt said himself.
Of course Fitch couldn’t finish Silva but he very easily could lay on Silva for 25. Anyway, i will gladly bet u if the fight comes to pass but it won’t ever happen for a number of reasons, especially if Fitch gets another WW demolition title shot against GSP. Fitch will, like always, be forced to win some absurd number of fights in the division before he gets close to a shot (pretty much the anti-Vitor, if you will). By the time Fitch would b in contention Silva will probably be on the verge of retirement or possibly have lost.
You don't have to make excuses when you win.
And did Marquardt make the crack about Silva’s strength before or after he lost consciousness?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Franklin also said that Anderson Silva was strong as hell.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Right
I remember Rich talking about how he didn’t really worry about clinch training prior to the fight because he felt he would be the stronger fighter.
I don’t recall hearing marquardt say that, but if he did…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
This makes me laugh every time
Griffin talking about being obliterated by Anderson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1R50LpFh_M
This is pretty anecdotal, but I recently saw Fitch in person before his fight with Alves, and the guy is huge. Significantly bigger than i thought he’d be in real life. He wasn’t overly tall, Silva would definitely have a huge reach advantage, but he is a pretty big guy. I have seen other notable WW up close in person before and I can say he is definitely a large 170er. I don’t think he has the frame to be a proper MW but Shields showed you can do wonders with technique, and Fitch has no shortage of that. I’d give them both a shot to beat Silva.
by BurtBacharach on Oct 13, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but Sonnen is supposed to be huge at 185
A big 170-pounder is still a small 185-pounder. Wrestlers like Fitch and Sonnen rely a ton on their weight-cutting to have a physical advantage over their opponents. I think over the course of 25 minutes, Silva finds a home for a punch that puts Silva on his ass.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
There is nothing in Anderson's fight history
That suggests he would be able to keep someone like GSP, Fitch or Shields from putting him on his back every round.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you high?
He’s beaten everyone they’ve put in front of him for more than five years, including the high-level wrestler who you guys were all complaining he had yet to face.
I’d love to see this fight, because Fitch would get his head punched in, but I frankly think he’d have a tough time getting through Marquardt and Okami and anyone else at MW who has a legitimate shot at the title.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Anderson has still never faced an elite MMA Wrestler. Sonnen, while a great wrestler who has adapted it well to MMA is an old school stay in the guard guy who is constantly at risk of being submitted.
A guy like GSP, Shields, Jones or possibly Fitch, Rashad or even Okami would provide a better test than Sonnen can.
Having said that, Okami could be a good challenge, but Nate doesn’t have the TDD needed to beat these guys.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
And after he does some unlicensed dental work on Fitch
The wrestling apologists will complain that he wasn’t an “elite MMA wrestler” either, as has been the case now with both Hendo and Sonnen, who frankly both have more impressive amateur wrestling credentials than Fitch, and are larger.
Or they’ll complain that Fitch had a “bad gameplan”, or that he “got caught” which are also favorite excuses among those who hate the fact that the best MMA athlete of his generation never wrestled a day in his life.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Well...
Fitch does use much more of a clinch-based approach to his takedowns than most MMA Wrestlers, and those guys (and many others in MMA) have far better amateur wrestling credentials than Fitch with his career .400 or so record.
I am also not trying to imply Anderson has no chance, far from, but to say guys like Fitch or Shields have no chance is just silly…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don’t understand how Sonnen isn’t an elite MMA wrestler. He’s been wrecking in the UFC. He destroyed two good wrestlers in Marquardt and Okami. Its just the state of the MW division that absolutely nobody gets any recognition besides Anderson and Maia every once in a while.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
What Sonnen did to Okami is just ridiculous.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a popular narrative among MMA fans that elite wrestlers will remake the sport in their image. The fans behind this narrative suffer massive cognitive dissonance when the facts conflict with the story in their heads. Which is how we get statements like “Chael Sonnen is not an elite MMA wrestler.”
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you stop patronizing everyone’s views?
This is pretty simple but apparently you don’t get it or are just acting deliberately thick to shy away from the truth.
Sonnen=elite wrestler but not an elite grappler. He is simply including submission defense as part of his definition of elite wrestler, as well he should. Shields Fitch GSP…NONE OF THEM WILL GET SUBMITTED BY SILVA.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND SONNEN. SONNEN HAS 8 LOSSES BY SUBMISSION.
The fact of the matter is unless knocking someone out as they come in is a realistic gameplan (which it is not), you better be able to stop their takedowns if you want to have a chance to knock them out.
How can I be respectful of views that have no basis in reality?
Since we’re so keen on facts here, the fact is that Anderson Silva owns the longest string of title defenses in the history of the UFC. He is widely considered the best p4p fighter on the planet. During his title run, he has consistently KO’d, submitted or clowned bigger, stronger guys with grappling ability in two divisions, both of which are heavier than WW. And yet, every time Silva knocks down yet another great white hope of the wrestling community, there are string of comments like yours about how he stands no chance against the next guy. It’s silly, and it’s unsupportable, and I won’t pretend it makes an iota of sense.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Anderson is a great champ to be sure,
And #1 or #1a as a P4P guy IMO, but he has had the luxury of making his run without having to face elite level mma wrestlers for the most part.
Sonnen is the only high level wrestler he has faced period during his record setting run, and Sonnen, while a great wrestler, is far from an elite MMA Wrestler due to the gaping holes in his submission game and guard passing.
The Silva – Sonnen fight went almost exactly as I predicted it would here.
Great as Anderson is, he has been the beneficiary of fighting in the division with by far the weakest group of MMA Wreslters in the UFC.
Look back at his last “loss” (via DQ) against Okami (a good MMA Wrestler himself)…Okami had Anderson mounted when the DQ kick occurred…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a reasonable argument
What’s not reasonable is making Anderson Silva out to be some sort of chump who hasn’t fought anyone. What’s also not reasonable is suggesting that beating Silva is as simple as having a good double-leg and top-control game. On the night that Silva came closest to losing everything went right for his opponent — who was cheating — and everything went wrong for Silva, who was injured. And that’s a fight Silva won.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
It will likely take not only an elite MMA Wrestler, but one who is also an elite athlete like Silva is to beat him. A rematch with Sonnen ends up much like the first fight, although probably a round or 2 earlier now that Anderson has taken his measure. He, like Fedor (pre-Werdum) just seem to have that ability to keep their wits and find a way to win…and Sonnen seems to create new ways to be submitted…that fight was his one chance to grind out a win.
Guys who IMO have a legit shot or better against Anderson include GSP, Jones, Davis (2-3 fights from now), possibly Okami and perhaps (I hate to say this) Rashad (if he doesn’t gas) via grind-it-out quasi-LnP with good sub defense.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 13, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I buy Jones
He has a combination of solid wrestling ability and nasty killer instinct. It isn’t safe to have Jon Jones in your guard. I can see GSP too, because he has such a diverse skill set and physical tools.
I have never said, and don’t believe, that Silva is unbeatable, but I find the revisionist history of his accomplishments my wrestling apologists to be absolutely maddening.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree as well
I have never said, and don’t believe, that Silva is unbeatable, but I find the revisionist history of his accomplishments my wrestling apologists to be absolutely maddening.
I agree it can get carried too far, and IMO Anderson, like Fedor and BJ before wasn’t “protected” from any elite MMA Wrestlers, but for the most part before there were simply none capable of contending during their respective runs.
I also think age/wear is catching up a little with Anderson in terms of his knees, and he doesn’t seem to have the ability to sprawl like he once did.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Okami was in Silva guard when he ate that kick. And Silva had easily defended several shooting double legs before the last which landed Okami in a triangle attempt.
I have made that narrative in the past
And I stand by it. Under the current rules and judging standards, the truly elite mma wrestlers are replacing the elite MT/BJJ guys.
By this time next year, every UFC title, with the possible exception of MW which has no elite mma wrestlers, will be held by an MMA Wrestler. That is just the way it is going.
Fortunately for all, there are some far more exciting mma wrestlers making their way through the ranks (Askren, Hendricks, Jones, Davis) so the risk of true LnP champs will be minor…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Partly semantics I suppose, but
Sonnen is an elite wrestler, and even an elite MMA fighter, but the elite MMA wrestlers have fairly high level submission offense and defense as well as the willingness and ability to work to improve position.
Sonnen, like Maynard, is an old school wrestler.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Fitch vs AS
would look a lot like Sonnen vs AS, except that Fitch is smart enough not to get caught in the worlds most telegraphed triangle attempt.
You are the same people that thought Moussasi would lose to OBrien.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
And for the record
Fitch would beat Moussasi also… Moussasi and Fitch have similar frames, and I would be Moussasi could make MW pretty easily.
No it wouldn't
Sonnen displayed crisp striking, which Fitch has never shown in his career. He displayed a (steroid-assisted) work-rate that far surpasses anything Fitch has shown, and he displayed a chin that we know Fitch lacks.
Fitch would have to hump Silva for 25 minutes without getting caught. He would fail.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm surprised you are questioning
Fitch’s cardio and work-rate. Especially compared to Sonnen’s performance. Granted, 10-15 lbs of extra muscle might change things, but I would enjoy being proven wrong…
Fitch’s striking isn’t super, but his ground game and control is better then Sonnens. And his BJJ is light years ahead of Sonnens.
Sonnen punishes his opponents from their guard
in a way that Fitch has never shown himself capable of. Fitch’s opponents walk away from their fights with nothing more than an L on their record and a bad taste in their mouths.
Sonnen damaged Silva over the course of 23 minutes and almost stopped him. Fitch would be betting on controlling Silva without hurting him for 25 minutes, and I am very sure that he would lose that bet.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
We must have seen different fights...
I didn’t think Sonnen hurt AS very much, especially from guard… and AS sure seemed to be walking fine after the fight.
Of course, Sonnen looked totally jacked up after the fight.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not a fan of decision wrestling. I just don’t think AS would be able to stop Fitch.
Punishes?
Sonnen stays very busy, and I can’t recall him ever being stood up, but he rarely does any real damage, to Anderson or anyone else.
Of course, the same can be said of Fitch…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 13, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree completely.
I would say that Fitch has a slightly better chance of finishing Silva in a 5 round fight, but not significantly better. The only reason I say that is that we haven’t seen Anderson do a whole lot of grappling yet. Fitch does a lot more grappling then Sonnen, and that might gas AS out over 5 rounds, giving Fitch the opportunity to work a submission.
Most likely Fitch would win it by Decision.
If Fitch wins,
It is only via UD imo. And personally, Anderson’s gas tank is not a question in the slightest after the Sonnen fight. But that is just me.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm still on convinced
that Silva’s conditioning is solid. He is a fantastic fighter, but I haven’t seen his cardio really get pushed yet.
Sonnen pretty much sat in his guard for 20+ minutes. I believe that Fitch would set a much more fatiguing pace on the ground.
You could be right about his conditioning, I just don’t seen any evidence for it. However, lack of evidence doesn’t mean he isn’t a cardio machine.
This^. Fitch is a very large WW...
He’s much bigger then GSP. If I where gonna pull statistics out of my ass, I would say that Fitch probably cuts from 190~195 to make WW and AS probably cuts from 200~205 to make MW.
With his frame, it wouldn’t take Fitch long to put on a lean 10lbs of muscle. Fitch’s frame is about the same size as Okami and Sonnens. He would not be a puffed up MW, and he would probably decision AS without too much trouble.
Anderson doesn't cut weight in the correct sense of the phrase
He loses weight to get to his fighting weight as opposed to the dehydration / rehydration weight cutting cycle that many use. Fitch, like GSP, would outweigh Anderson in the cage, although there is Anderson’s length advantage.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you are mostly right...
AS doesn’t do as much dehydration cutting, but he does do some. No where near as much as american wrestlers or the ATT guys, but probably ~5 worth.
I think thats probably also the case with shogun and machida.
People always say this, and I’m not saying its not true, but if it is true, why is Anderson always chugging a pedialyte after he steps off the scales?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
He may cut the last 3-5 pounds or so as needed,
But Anderson himself said about 3 weeks out (well before true weight cutting would have started) that he was about 192 then. I have no reason not to believe him…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I hadn't read that
Fair point. But Anderson’s interviews, especially his English ones, are a little, well, ambiguous.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
That fight was changed by the first strike GSP threw. He rocked Fitch and dropped. After that Fitch was just in survival mode. If that first punch didn’t land or it grazed Fitch instead of rocking him, the entire fight is a different one.
You are assuming the second, third or tenth subsequent punch would not have rocked Fitch, had the first not worked.
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee
Fitch was never going to be able to consistently take or keep GSP down, and while a decent striker, he has no shot on the feet with a striker like GSP.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
FITCH WILL NEVER
Beat Silva! I dont see Cain winning either. i dint think any1 in the right mind can see that. Brocks an animal! I jus think Brock will be too strong
Jon Jones Cannot be Stopped! and neither can Anderson SIlva! Rampage will Reign Supreme again! Brock is a MONSTER and Kos Will win in December! Forrest Griffen is SOOOOO Overrated! BJ will Be Re-throned aswell!
By your sig...
I’d say you’re as biased in that subject as I am.
Fitch's only fan. It's lonely, being me.
im jus being realistic
Fitch beating Silva?? Its not even his weight class and Silva is the #1 P4P 4 a reason.. whers fitch on that list??? No i will admit to my Brock Opinion being a little Biased but I jus cant see Cain Winning, He doesnt hit Harder than Carwin and i dont see cain taking Brock down.
Jon Jones Cannot be Stopped! and neither can Anderson SIlva! Rampage will Reign Supreme again! Brock is a MONSTER and Kos Will win in December! Forrest Griffen is SOOOOO Overrated! BJ will Be Re-throned aswell!
I’d definitely want to see Fitch fight some contenders at MW before making an opinion on how he’d fare. I thought Chael Sonnen was gonna get murdered when he fought Silva, and I was very wrong. I don’t think anyone is unbeatable, and Fitch probably has the right style to beat Silva, its just whether or not he could use it effectively against him.
I definitely hope Brock wins against Cain, I love reading the angry comments on here post-fight.
Fitch's only fan. It's lonely, being me.
This article makes me nostalgic for the folks who predicted in “The Sky is Falling!” articles that a frenchie like GSP could never make him the level of star of country boy Hughes. Or the UFC HW division is entirely reliant on Couture’s starpower.
Maybe folks should go ahead and start working on the “What will the UFC do without a Latino HW champion?!?!?!?!” articles that they’ll be passing off as journalism next year.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
by Stanlee on Oct 13, 2010 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Convergence journalism opens the door to all kinds of people, most of which would have been fired if they worked in print.
It is an interesting bind for the UFC to be presented with this type of a problem, leverage in bargaining related to the prominence of the camp in terms of titles, albeit I cannot see it being a huge issue myself in the long run.
yeah the print media
the people who brought us wall to wall coverage of OJ and Jon Benet, shark attacks in the summer of 2011 and the falsified reports that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. If only those wise old hands of the print media were still making enough money to keep us safe from misinformation.
lol
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Oct 13, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
You might be surprised but in places that aren’t the USA there is such a thing called print media that still functions quite well, how much of that makes it into the US and pass all the great corporate filters remains to be seen.
Quite the generalization though, sounds like sour grapes.
by DirtyML on Oct 13, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
come off it
Print Media is no different than any other media in how it reports, regardless of country. There is not some sort of “print media Mecca” outside of the USA. Rubbish is rubbish and it happens in all forms of media world wide.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 13, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I'd like to see some links
who said the UFC wouldn’t be able to sell GSP?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Yeah...
GSP was kind of viewed as a golden boy very early in his UFC run.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
UFC handling the sponsorships
would be great, if the deals were set up properly. MMA ppv’s are starting to look like Nascar with the amount of ad’s on the banners, shorts and the tshirts/hats.
The problem is that given the mentality UFC/Zuffa has shown, they wouldn’t be very fair to the fighters. I’m dead certain even a relatively small-time agent can get their clients better sponsorship deals than if the deals were done through UFC. Whereas now it might be a 10K deal with the agent taking, say, 10% off the top, with UFC at the reins it would be 60% to UFC.
Don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
Can't deal with the occasional boring fight? Let me introduce you to ROH.
Dear Mr. White - would it kill you to drop a few f-bombs less?
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Oct 13, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa looks out for Zuffa, not its fighters
If the fighters want to maximize their earnings, hiring an agent and marketing themselves will always generate more income than accepting a Zuffa-approved deal. There’s no interest for Zuffa to get more money from sponsors for its fighters.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
can't help but agree
it seems ironic, but zuffa comes to sound more and more like some Stalinist command economy machine the more of these commments i read… makes me laff, but not in an entirely comfortable way… ‘money money money and fuck you all, now where’s my money?’
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
They're the opposite of Stalinism, in fact
They are the very epitome of Adam Smith’s dictum that a free market works best when all in in their own self-interest. It is in each fighter’s interest to get the best deal they can from sponsors. It is in UFC’s best interest for those sponsors to spend that money with the UFC directly.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
if only it were a 'free' market
Obv the fighters can always leave and seek remuneration for their skills elsewhere, but
this seems to conform to the UFC being the market place itself… effectively a higher echelon monopoly… hence the ‘Command’ element… that’s what I was getting at.
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
I have wondered what's being going on with ZUFFA/AKA lately.
It’s been very quiet, when usually there is at least some tension. It seems strange that ZUFFA would allow even 2 AKA guys near title shots at the same time because of their history.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
Good article.
But I suppose if this were such a nightmare scenario for White and Zuffa, they could just decide to stop awarding all of these AKA fighters title shots. As for Fitch becoming middleweight champ…that seems extraordinarily far-fetched.
by Charlie Custer on Oct 13, 2010 12:29 PM EDT reply actions
They could. But that’s not very sporting is it? The AKA guys are getting opportunities because they are among the best in the industry. That’s how it should be.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention Cain is big money, and Kos is likely GSP’s last money fight at WW.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Oct 13, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Shields?
twitter.com/GotaHemmi
instrength.com <-- Best MMA forum
by Brian Hemminger on Oct 13, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I absolutely agree.
And I’m glad that Zuffa approaches matchmaking with a certain integrity. Because of the parity at the upper reaches of the divisions, they could probably get away with suppressing some of these guys (with the exception of Cain) for awhile anyway, but they seem to have no interest in doing so. Without getting carried away, it seems to at least indicate that for them, the business profits are not the only consideration. Or, perhaps they’re smart enough to understand that there is an integrity that is inherent in hand-to-hand combat — the thing that attracts many fans in the first place — and it would be good business not to spoil it.
by Charlie Custer on Oct 13, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm
You’d think Dana wouldn’t allow these things if he were worried about them.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a real desire to see the best fight the best there. It will take a lot for them to violate those kind of core principles.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Right...
these aren’t mutually exclusive ideas. Dana almost certainly does not want three AKA champions. But, there is also a legitimate business practice of best fight best so the fights get made (well 2 of the 3 in the above scenerio). Because those fights get made does not mean that there is not a desirable and undesirable outcome for Zuffa.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Can one take it to mean that Zuffa does not solely act in naked self interest? There’s a genuine desire for competition there?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course. Zuffa has, by and large, done a fantastic job of promoting MMA fights based on who fans want to see and who deserves a shot. It’s a big part of their identity with fans. They can’t afford to stop allowing opportunities based on merit.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, and I don’t think Jon implied otherwise. And you’ve certainly never heard me say different.
But that doesn’t make the prospect of multiple AKA champions appealing for White and co.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
This scenario is so sweet, I really hope it happens. Minus the Fitch over Anderson thing. The whole AKA Zuffa competition is just what happens when two assholes do business with each other. Neither want to budge an inch, and they both just feel so entitled.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I love how
Kos says he under estimated GSP’s wrestling, but now he will be prepared, so did Fitch under estimate it as well? These guys train together right? GSP is going to take Kos down, whenever he wants. Fitch will never beat Anderson. If Cain wins, thats a win for the UFC, a huge market to sale to. See boxing.
I told you not to f*ck with me.
To be fair
Fitch is nowhere near the wrestler or pure athlete Kos is.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 13, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He also has more knockout power
Fitch is a higher ranked fighter, because unlike Kos he doesn’t make mistakes, but Kos is a tougher matchup for Georges.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Oct 13, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Fitch has adopted his so-so amateur wrestling very well to MMA
But I can’t see him beating GSP or Kos. Both Fitch and Kos have claimed that Kos was so confident in his wrestling that he didn’t really train it for GSP. Then again, Kos had hell trying to take Alves down, and even Daley was able to get back up several times.
Even if their claim is true, which I would tend to doubt if not for some of the other foolish chances Kos has taken with others, GSP is a totally different fighter than he was 3 years ago, Kos, aside from improved striking, is much the same.
In a folkstyle wrestling match, Kos might beat GSP, in MMA, highly unlikely.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate to make excuses for all of Kos's losses
But the Alves loss Kos can also blame on hubris. He mainly just wanted to stand and kickbox with Alves, and got lit up. He tried a couple desperate takedowns after he was already getting picked apart on the feet. It also wasn’t the best wrestling performance Koscheck had ever put on.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Oct 13, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
If Kos took a relatively low-risk approach, a la GSP or Fitch, he would have a far better record. Both the Alves and Paulo Thiago fights were just foolish game planning on Kos’ part imo.
As with Lesnar, I can’t stand his personality, but he is very effective when doing what he does best.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
what the f...
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 13, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
and Herschel Walker
is going to take the LHW belt.
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
Only one
of those is a very realistic possibility. GSP will defeat Koscheck just like he did last time and Fitch will stay at WW (and hopefully fight Shields and some other guys with good wrestling/jits).
Also, though he would be no Brock Lesnar, I think Cain Velasquez could build a following if he destroys him or wins an epic battle against him.
If GSP loses, he gets a rematch in short order, either straight up or after one more fight. If that happens, do you think Kos wins a second time? GSP isn’t Penn – he won’t try the same thing if it stops working.
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"This is the internet: you either have soul-stopping power or you’re a pillow-fisted pansy. There is no middle ground." - woomikee
Fluff piece.
This is projection, not news. Trying to spark fear and anxiety when chances are, none of this will even happen.
Good info on Sherk, though.
Um, I think you might want to read the category heading just below the headline
by JonathanSnowden on Oct 13, 2010 12:31 PM EDT in UFC Editorial
That means it isn’t a news piece.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
by duck on Oct 13, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm just saying he never claimed it was news.
"Walk not down that road, I cannot tell you where it goes. Ask me no more questions - some things you're not meant to know." - The Sword
An article about a controversial topic is not generally considered “fluff.” Just a helpful hint to help you avoid looking silly in future conversations.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought this was a cool angle
Enjoyed it. I also enjoyed the info on Sherk. Offered some interesting perspective.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Dana White is living his nightmare. His nightmare is not having the entire sport of MMA locked under the UFC banner.
Don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
Can't deal with the occasional boring fight? Let me introduce you to ROH.
Dear Mr. White - would it kill you to drop a few f-bombs less?
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Oct 13, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
kos won't beat gsp
he just doesn’t have the weapons to finish him or control him for five rounds. dana will NEVER give fitch a title fight against silva unless fitch just goes nuts finishing top middleweight contenders. cain, obviously, stands the best chance of winning and is also the most marketable of the three.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Oct 13, 2010 1:40 PM EDT reply actions
Bit iffy
but I liked the content after the jump. Didn’t know all of that. As far as a doomsday scenario I’m not digging the bunker just yet.
Typical stuff from Snowden, though your a great writer and your interviews are very interesting, your editorial pieces are usually not for me.
To think that Dana or anyone running Zuffa would have nightmares over these scenarios is ridiculous. If they UFC wanted to, they could cut all three, champions or not and it would hurt the company very little if at all. It sure as hell wouldn’t look good for the company and bring into question how things are being run but things would be fine in the end for Zuffa.
I also don’t feel Cain winning would be bad either. Yes Lesnar is a cash cow, but he’ll still be a cash cow on his run back to the title and it would build a huge star out of Cain. The rematch would be BIG money.
Your is not the same thing as you’re. Also, to suggest that if they were championship and the UFC cut them would not affect them is beyond asinine. Even if they weren’t champions, every single one of those guys is top 5 in their respective weight classed. Be realistic
by disinferno06 on Oct 14, 2010 8:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
...

And let us remember that Jon Fitch was completely, utterly alone in going against AKA’s advice and not immediately signing the video game thing.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:33 PM EDT reply actions
LOL. This is so ridiculously untrue. A lot of internal drama between fighters and agents over this one.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Fitch himself said he went against his management’s advice. Don’t try me on this one – I came of age during that entire thing (well, that and mercilessly bashing WAMMA) by defending the shit out of Zuffa.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you honestly believe that he was the only fighter to question the video game money? I know of fighters who left their agents over the argument and there was a ton of drama all over the place.
Have you ever spoken to anyone at AKA, Zinkin, or Zuffa?
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
How many fighters lost their job for more than 24 hours as a result?
I’m actually in the process of researching a piece on Cook/Zinkin. But, again, your sources trump mine. Here’s hoping we all get to peer at your treasure trove of secrets one day. Until then, the fighters are starving while you remain silent. Starving.
This is all part of some fantasy which results in the UFC no longer being the premiere mixed martial arts association on Earth. Keep dreaming, I suppose.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I just wrote a big article about it. See above.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You should have just given Dana White a heart attack and arrested the Fertittas for being mobsters. Done and done.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Subo
You seem like a good guy, and of the people on this site I nearly always disagree with you are the only one I would say that about. But you are SENS Y TIV.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
TAKE IT BACK
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
were the video game thing and the likeness thing going to be exclusive, as in, the UFC would have exclusive rights and the fighters wouldn’t be able to market their own names, independent of the UFC? or was it just giving the UFC freedom to use the fighters name/picture forever, while not restricting anything the fighter can do to make money of his name?
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
Interesting and fun speculation...
I do like articles like this thrown into the mix with pure news. Its what makes BE not only information rich, but fun.
That said, while 1 and 2 are plausible outcomes, 3 is almost an impossibility. Besides his style, Fitch dominates at WW because he is so much bigger than most WWs (alves being the only larger fighter, though possibly Rumble also since he misses weight so much) . At MW, he’d have to fight guys who are relatively larger than he is, just as he is to other WW. And while he fights more carefully than Sonnen does, I think Sonnen’s wrestling is better. Silva, if he landed anything clean like GSP did, puts Fitch to sleep. And on the ground, I don’t doubt he’d find a way to submit Fitch or hit him with strikes from below in a way Fitch has never experienced.
Jean Snowden...

I am not impress by you performance. You tink dat because I am bussee wid de film of de ultmate fighterr I will not find the time to say dat I am not impress wid you?
Cain will lose to Brock, Koshek can andle my riddum and Jean Fish will never be go to middleweigh cause I will be da one oo kick ’is ass all de time. You will ’ave bedder luck going down to de depanneur and buying de lotto ticket dan seeing dis ’appen.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Time to put some meat in your pain sandwich.
by Ubernoober on Oct 13, 2010 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 13 recs
Is good to ‘ave a-you bac, Uberneubear. I’ve been ’anning the barr-i-cades alone too long.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally off topic but…
UBER?!?!?!?!
Where the he’ll have you been?
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Oct 13, 2010 3:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't buy into the notion that Lesnar losing is bad for the UFC's business
Great champions are defined by great rivalries. You can’t have a great rivalry if the champion never loses.
Lesnar losing the occasional match here and there would actually be GOOD for the UFC’s business. One of the best things that happened to the UFC in recent years was Lesnar losing to Mir. That was a HUGE part of why UFC 100 was such a blockbuster success. Would anyone have been interested in Brock-Mir 2 if Brock had smashed Mir in the first fight? Probably not.
I disagree. Lesnar is best suited at this point as the UFC’s Tyson. Him losing to every other contender just makes him another guy.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The UFC has a Tyson
Two actually. Anderson and GSP.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I actually kind of see Anderson as Lennox Lewis – just epically, amazingly good, but underappreciated
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 13, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Word
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 13, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If Silva immediately announced his retirement after beating Sonnen, I would concede this to you. But saying Anderson is MMA’s Lennox Lewis is insulting to Anderson at this point.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Oct 13, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Neither of those guys resemble Tyson in anyway. Tyson brought with him the promise of some epic violence. GSP and Silva might be more analogous to Ray Leonard and Roy Jones.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Roy Jones is a great analogy for Silva
Slick, untouchable at his best, but still able to deliver the KO.
The closest I think MMA has come to having a Tyson was a prime-era Wand or Vitor Belfort Version 1.0.
The mystique of Tyson was more than just talent, it was the threat of instant violence. You knew, as soon as the bell rung, that something very bad was about to happen, and the anticipation was outrageous.
I’m not sure that MMA has seen that guy yet.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
I’m old enough to remember those fights. We used to buy them (and kegs) and have very, very short parties. Nobody seemed to mind though.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Those HBO unification fights
With Tyson were the last time I was truly excited about boxing. He had to fight himself into the conversation IIRC as the “tournament” progressed, finally demanding a seat at the head of the table due to sheer dominance…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Arthur Schopenhauer
As for being well rounded... "The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses it very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Oct 13, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Tyson was the kind of game-changer
who made everybody care about boxing. I grew up mostly on football, but I paid attention to Tyson. I think for people growing up in today’s sports media market, it’s impossible to understand the kind of national impact Tyson had. He not only transcended boxing, but sport altogether. Before he fell apart, Tyson fights had the feeling of being historical events, not just years after the fact, but at the time you were watching them.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Sacreligious as this may be to say...
I get the same feeling today watching Bones as I did as a teenager watching Tyson…just a man among boys within his sport…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully Bones
Who seems less angry and better grounded, doesn’t succumb to the sort of inner demons that finally undid Tyson when no one could come close in the ring.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I was in 5th grade when Buster Douglas beat Tyson
and everyone was talking about it. In 5th grade. I can’t tell you who won the superbowl that year (prob the 49ers), but I remember everyone shadowboxing in class that day very well.
“it was the threat of instant violence. You knew, as soon as the bell rung, that something very bad was about to happen, and the anticipation was outrageous.”
Wandy during his PRIDE run.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
Might be the closest
or early Belfort. Not exactly right, but that’s the sort of threat we’re talking about.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Oct 13, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the UFC would gladly settle for him being their Ali
The odd loss to a Joe Frazier here and a Ken Norton there will do nothing but help Zuffa’s business.
He doesn’t have Ali’s qualities. He’s a hulking brute. Either he’s Tyson or Sonny Liston. He’s not built to be Ali, mentally or physically.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine.
Drop the boxing analogies.
I am of the opinion that, more often than not, champions are elevated to legendary status by the strength of their foils. I think a vibrant and highly competitive rivalry with guys like Velasquez and JDS will do Lesnar’s legend (and Zuffa’s pocketbook) more good than Brock steamrolling those guys. A loss here and there creates the opportunity for meaningful rematches and trilogies, while long-term domination leads to running out of fights that people perceive as competitive.
I agree
A close loss (either via being “caught” or maybe a SD) or a highly controversial win will do more for Zuffa that a continuous string of W’s for Lesnar.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe. With someone like Lesnar you are buying Lesnar. Not an opponent. An ass kissing. The best thing that could happen would be a series of competitive fights like the one with Carwin. That way you can go back to the well while continuing to sell the dominant fighter as dominant.
I agree that a loss for Lesnar at some point isn’t a killer. But if it happens several times to guys that don’t attract an audience or move fans – well, that becomes an issue.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
But if it happens several times to guys that don’t attract an audience or move fans – well, that becomes an issue.
I agree with that.
Lesnar can’t be a win one, lose one guy and keep his current popularity. But if he can win four and lose one, I don’t think it will hurt his ability to generate PPV buys one bit.
I think we agree. It’s just that his position is so tenuous right now. I’d like to see him win four or five to establish that aura further. Then a loss would mean more. Right now he’s still in the “hewasneverthatgoodanyway” zone.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 13, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't really see 2 or 3 happening at all
1 might be slightly plausible (if cain keeps it standing and batters brockle snar for 5 rounds) but this “doomsday” scenario for dana isn’t gonna happen
You must defeat me to stand a chance.

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