A Legacy of Failure: Brock Lesnar Must Combat Both History and Cain Velasquez
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 2:21 PM EDT
in UFC History
Email
Print
If Brock Lesnar wins next weekend against rising star Cain Velasquez, he will become the most successful heavyweight champion in UFC history. That says less about Lesnar, who is beyond dispute a beast of a man with the potential to be among the greats, and more about the sad, small history of the UFC's heavyweight champions over the years.
Since Mark Coleman was crowned champion back at UFC 12, nine of the men who held gold failed to successfully defend their prize a single time. Six others were able to defend the belt just one time. Only two other men, Randy Couture and Tim Sylvia, dispatched a pair of challengers during a single title reign before falling victim to the next big thing.
Lesnar, if you remove the morass and the confusion surrounding the UFC's bizarre decision to create an interim title everytime the champion gets a head cold, has successfully defended the title he won from Randy Couture twice. His battle with Cain Velasquez will be his third title defense. A win separates Lesnar from the pack and makes him the greatest champion the division has ever known -inside the hallowed confines of the Octagon.
For much of the sport's brief history, however, the top fighters have plied their trade elsewhere. The great migration began when tournament champion Mark Kerr risked the wrath of the courts system to do battle in the rings of Pride. Following Kerr's lead, and the money, for years the top heavyweights on the planet called Japan home. From Kerr, to a resurgent Coleman, to a new generation of amazing fighters like Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Heath Herring, and Fedor Emelianenko, Pride heavyweights were the top guys in the division.
Fedor's loss to Fabricio Werdum changed everything. The balance of power shifted once again back to the UFC. For the first time in the 2000's, the UFC champion is truly the sport's best in the division. With a win over Velasquez, Lesnar will become the UFC's top heavyweight ever. A subsequent win over Junior dos Santos might open up further discussion - by the end of 2011 we might be calling Brock Lesnar not just the top UFC heavyweight of all time, but the top heavyweight. Period.
221 comments
|
5 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
you know what?
that’s two pieces in the same day that were good — both about Lesnar, strangely enough. but i thought the piece about Lesnar’s drive was very good, and this one brought an interesting take on guys playing hot-potato with the heavyweight strap.
Nice job, Snowden.
My first novel, Prodigal, will be released Nov. 2, 2010 ... check out Prodigal on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Prodigal/132020530174927
Or you can check out my website, http://bobthewriter.com
by bobthewriter on Oct 12, 2010 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
everyone knows that i give Snowden hell
but when he does a good job, he should hear that, too.
tough, but fair. that’s me. hahaha.
Buy my debut novel, Prodigal, as a Kindle ebook here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046LV7LA
The trade paperback edition launches Nov. 2, 2010!
Or you can check out my website, http://bobthewriter.com
by bobthewriter on Oct 12, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see Snowden is in the Brocktober spirit
Interesting article and while I’m sure you’re last couple sentences will set off a shit storm, it really sheds some light on the historic importance of Lesnar’s rise in the sport.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
if his last two comments upset people
it’s because they’re not thinking clearly. we’d all like to think Fedor is still what he was five years ago — but he’s clearly not. Brock is a physical specimen with the work ethic to become the greatest heavyweight we’ve seen yet.
My first novel, Prodigal, will be released Nov. 2, 2010 ... check out Prodigal on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/Prodigal/132020530174927
Or you can check out my website, http://bobthewriter.com
by bobthewriter on Oct 12, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think anyone today could argue with Brock being the #1 guy (tho wins over Reem and Werdum would put Fedor right back up there, especially if Lesnar lost) it’s the idea of after a little more than a half dozen fights and a few years that he would be considered the greatest of all time. For me, today, even after a JDS win, that is a bridge too far.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think it takes a combination of
Brock beating Cain, JDS, and Carwin in a rematch + Fedor losing again in the next year to really start that conversation. All of that assumes that at least 2 of the 3 (Cain, JDS, Carwin) go on to dominate the vast majority of their other fights.
Without Fedor losing again, or if he is unable to fight either Overeem or Werdum for whatever reasons, it will take a bit more even than what I listed to make a valid argument that Lesnar is the GOAT at HW.
The only thing imo that could shorten the cycle is if Overeem dominates Fedor, then comes to the UFC and gets decisively beaten by Brock…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 12, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It really is something
to think about. 3 years ago Brock Lesnar fighting MMA was thought of as an experiment. Not a sideshow but not quite legitimate. To think that Brock Lesnar is 3-4 defenses away from being considered one of the greatest ever. I’m not ready to agree with that but I’m fine with it if other people want to say it.
From finishing Heath Herrings career and finishing Couture to take the title, to completely demolishing former Champ Frank Mir to avenge his only loss and coming back from the brink of defeat to submit Carwin. If Lesnar has another epic battle this time with Cain Velasquez, It would be hard not to talk about Lesnar as one of the best of all time.
But I think that Brocks biggest challenge would be for him to take on a high-level striker. An Overeem type fighter. If there was a chance for him to fight Overeem after Cain (and we all know how likely that is to happen) and win, I would be willing to hear arguments comparing Lesnars legacy to that of Fedor.
i agree
But Alistair would ko him in the first….. I would guess. I hope we get to see that battle someday.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Oct 12, 2010 2:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Reem... a thought and a question
In one of his Reem video diaries, Alistair gently hinted that he did see himself going beyond Strikeforce, his mantra (like many) is about fighting the best in the world. I guess this would depend on SF’s talent pool acquisition and the Reem’s performances over his next few fights in K1 and SF. If Reem becomes K1 Grand Champion this time out, my guess is he will be eyeing up a UFC title over the horizon (beyond Fedor et al) in order to cement his growing legacy. Not sure about the whole ‘champion clause’ business though, can anyone shed light on how easy (or not) it might be for Reem to extricate himself from this in order to enter the UFC? (Having said all that, not sure I want to see UFC scoop all the gravy, they’re too powerful as it is imo).
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Me and Pat Miletich said a few years ago that Lesnar would be damn near unbeatable in a couple years
This was 3 years ago.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I, of course, come first before Pat
Grammar be damned.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Grammar be damned.
Always :)
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Oct 13, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Many people said this
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
i was once a brock hater....
After the carwin fight I am a fan. Dudes got heart, subs and stopping power.
What’s not to like?
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Oct 12, 2010 2:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
there is that.
"Even Hulkamania wouldn't get you out of this hold"
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
by the-gentle-way on Oct 12, 2010 2:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fedor’s loss to Fabricio Werdum changed everything. The balance of power shifted once again back to the UFC.
I’d say it was a combination of Fedor’s loss, Fedor’s relatively weak schedule before Werdum AND the fact that outside UFC there wasn’t anyone ready to stake a claim to being the the top dog at HW. Hence, Lesnar – and up until today he’s really lived up to that claim.
Don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
Can't deal with the occasional boring fight? Let me introduce you to ROH.
Dear Mr. White - would it kill you to drop a few f-bombs less?
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Oct 12, 2010 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I’m not buying it.
I have always been a firm believer in ‘in order to be the man, you have to beat the man’. IMHO, Fabricio Werdum is the #1 HW in the world because he beat the guy was widely considered the greatest HW in the sport. Sure, Werdum has a loss to Junior Dos Santos that muddies things up a bit, but it is no more muddy than Frankie Edgar’s claim on LW despite having a loss on his record to Gray Maynard. Both Werdum & Edgar beat ‘the man’ in their division, so IMHO both Werdum and Edgar are deserving of being ranked #1 despite a black mark on their record.
I’ll start listening to arguments about the UFC guys being #1 once the Brock/Cain/Junior troika have sorted out who the true alpha male is the UFC’s HW division. Hopefully, by that time, Werdum/Overeem/Fedor will also have sorted things out in Strikeforce. Until then, Werdum is #1 in my book.
yea but edgar lost a decision
and sure it was fairly one sided, but still a decision, werdum got convincingly and brutally ktfo’d by dos santos
thats 2 very different scenarios and throw in werdums horrible and boring as shit loss to arlovski and it completely throws off ur comparison
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
Boo
Werdum is on a three fight winning streak that includes Bigfoot, Mike Kyle (!) and the Fedor. Maynard-Edgar was way longer ago than a fat, uninterested Werdum getting KTFO in the first round by a guy making his Octagon debut, and Frankie beat another top flight LW (Sean Sherk) en route to beating #1… twice.
Werdum at #1 is infinitely more defensible than Overeem at #1, I’ll give you that.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This is like calling South Carolina the best team in the country
Werdum beating Fedor meant more about how good Fedor is currently than it did about how good Werdum is.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Oct 12, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I think Fedor's loss to a non-that-well-regarded Werdum...
led people to re-evaluate whether he really was the man, i.e. whether his skills had gone downhill over the past few years without us noticing.
Hence, retrospectively, I believe the “market” (consensus rankings etc) is saying, prior to the Fedor loss, Fedor’s #1 ranking was in fact erroneous. Therefore, they aren’t automatically putting Werdum at the top of the list just because he beat Fedor. This re-jigging takes into account Werdum’s previous performances, the manner in which he beat Fedor (many think it was flukey or lucky, or due to a Fedor mistake), Brock’s performances and the caliber of his opponents, etc. Rather than taking the “lineal champion” approach, it’s more like “let’s heuristically take into account all the info available to us, and see what we believe is the best estimate of the athletes’ quality levels today”. Which, I think, is better than doing the lineal champion thing in heavyweight MMA.
If you say Fedor was #1 before, then Werdum is #1 now. What happens if Werdum goes and fights Todd Duffee and gets KO’d (not an impossible scenario)… does Todd Duffee automatically get to be #1?
My problem is with the notion that Werdum was not ‘well-regarded’. He might not have been well regarded by the fans with Zuffa goggles on, but he had been a mainstay on top 10 lists for years. He wasn’t some bum who came out of nowhere to beat Fedor. He was a world champion grappler who had been a ranked mixed martial artist for nearly five years.
If you say Fedor was #1 before, then Werdum is #1 now. What happens if Werdum goes and fights Todd Duffee and gets KO’d (not an impossible scenario)… does Todd Duffee automatically get to be #1?
That is a strawman and you know it. What if Todd Duffee beat Lesnar? What if Aaron Simpson beat Anderson Silva? What if Ricky Story beat GSP? Just throwing out random names and saying ‘what if’ is not a valid argument.
That is because
Much like in college football or college basketball, where rankings are decided by “member” voters, if anyone outside of the top 5-6 teams beats #1, they not only do not become #1, but they unless they were at least top-10, they generally don’t even outrank the team they just beat.
I have almost innumerable problems with the rankings systems, because there seem to be very different criteria used for different fighters, but just being the so-called “linear champion” doesn’t automatically deserve the #1 ranking by any stretch.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Underwhelmed
The UFC has an incredible legacy in other weight class, but the ‘best UFC heavyweight champion’ sort of rings hollow considering Fedor’s monstrous achievements battling the best of his era outside of the Octagon.
This kind of talk will mean alot more after (if) he defeats Velasquez and Dos Santos.
I still can’t believe we are all in such a rush to write off Fedor after he got caught by Fabricio. It’s a rather bad indicator that Fedor is quite out of the picture yet.
I still can’t believe we are all in such a rush to write off Fedor after he got caught by Fabricio. Plus the endless BS with his management, plus the gimmie fights, plus the supposed ducking, plus the death of organizations, plus people just getting plain tired of the run around It’s a rather bad indicator that Fedor is quite out of the picture yet.
by truck on Oct 12, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 16 recs
Rec'd for truth
Buy my debut novel, Prodigal, as a Kindle ebook here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046LV7LA
The trade paperback edition launches Nov. 2, 2010!
Or you can check out my website, http://bobthewriter.com
by bobthewriter on Oct 12, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
ARRGH! Why can’t I rec’d this from my phone?! SHITFUCKMEECROB!!!!
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
by Tonley on Oct 12, 2010 3:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We need to let Lesnar
fight Wes Simms about 14 times so his SoS evens out with Fedors.
by Riney on Oct 12, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Just line up
All of the guys from TUF HW season over the course of about a month…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 12, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
For as long as Fedor held that Pride belt I’m pretty sure he actually only defended it three times(Nog, Cro Cop, Hunt). Pride was a big fan of non-title fights. Heck he defended the WAMMA belt almost as much as the Pride one. Not to discount all the great things Fedor has done but A lot of Fedor’s fights were real “WTF” moments as opposed to “monsterous” achievements.
Fighting every major heavyweight in your era and going undefeated for how many fights is no achievement right? Sure dude. You must have been in diapers and saying ga-ga goo-goo during the Pride Era.
Youzzz
Trolling
"Don't be scared homie!" Mayhem Miller
by We All Hate Caleb on Oct 12, 2010 8:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Interesting article
But you have to root for Velasquez because Velasquez vs. Dos Santos would be one of the most epic HW battles ever.
don’t worry that’s exactly what we’ll get once Cain outclasses Brock and finishes him!
The pain that you carry is the love that you never showed
It still will be… just with a “1” in each of their second columns.
"I'm gonna go after number one, whoever it is. If it's Anderson, or I gotta go up after the guys at 205, or go on a diet and go after Jose Aldo-- it doesn't matter." -Chael Sonnen
by Charles Awad on Oct 12, 2010 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Word.
"How do you shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?"
by DamnSevern on Oct 12, 2010 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Brock “Gulliver” Lesnar
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock has about 20 wins to go with top level competitors before I would say we could compare his legacy to Fedors as an all time greatest heavywieght, irrespective of whether Fedor might beat him today or not a single digit win column is not enough to be casting that kind of aspersion on the Legacy of Fedor. Brock could be the greatest but he has a long way to go before he gets even to half the level of accomplishment that Fedor has racked up.
by Christopher Church on Oct 12, 2010 2:39 PM EDT reply actions
20?
I’m thinking 5-ish, as long as it isn’t a bunch of retreads, which will likely be the biggest problem with the UFC Heavyweight division in the foreseeable future
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think 20 is a bit of a stretch.
Who did Fedor beat that qualifies as top competition?
Nog x 2
Coleman x 2
Cro Cop
Sylvia
Arlovski
Schlit, Hunt, Herring and Randleman aren’t in that class. It pains me to say it, but Lesnar is well on his way. He obviously won’t match the unbeaten streak, but he can fight a similar number of top flight guys.
I don’t agree with all of that. Herring was most assuredly a top fighter when Fedor took him on and Randleman was a former UFC heavyweight champ. Schilt was also a very good fighter. Those are all meaningful wins.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Meaningful yes but
if Lesanr beats the JDS, Cains and only the elite HW that the UFC puts in front of him…
Problem is...
Where are these elite guys gonna come from? Jon Jones in 2012? Maybe Todd Duffee is back by then, too. Cormier? Del Rosario? Overeem might still be kicking ass. We’ll see.
And even then, if it’s 5-6 fights, that’s 2 more years of being king of the mountain. We’ll see if Lesnar can stay with the game over that stretch. If he does, he’ll be the greatest.
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
They come, just like they did in the past
Think about it, the guys in the past weren’t always elite. they built up wins in unknown promotions before being put in the big show.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
"just like they did in the past"
when has there ever been a plethora of top MMA heavyweights in such a small window of time? Lesnar probably doesn’t have the better part of a decade in front of him to rack up wins.
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s wrong with some rematches? Kind of a staple of the combat sports. I for one would like to see Carwin-Lesnar II.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
nothing wrong with rematches
Otherwise I’d be shortcutting my own argument since Fedor had a trio with Nog and a couple with Coleman.
But realistically, if Brock’s record looks like Mir x2, Carwinx2, Cain x2, JDS x2 at the end of 2011, that’ll mean four of ten potential career wins are against the same people.
Having only fought 8 people ever, one of them being Min Soo Kim, would just seem… weird, even if most of it is good opposition.
But maybe sometime in the next 16 months Bones will thicken out and Overeem will find his way into the UFC.
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
If Lesnar makes it through Cain and JDS,
Fist I think we see a rematch with Carwin
Next (if he picks up another win or two) we see him fight Mir again
By then (and we are talking just over a year from now) Shaub or Mittrione or Browne or McCorkle or some newer signee will be ready for given a shot.
Carwin needs a win
And it needs to be bigger than Nelson (figuratively). Maybe he gets the loser of this bout if he beats Roy.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
A win in January could put him next in line after Das Santos (who should get his shot early 2011) but it would be nice to see him have to get two wins and for someone else new to get a shot at the belt. Still no clue who that someone else would be so Shane may get it by default while the rest of the division works itself out.
Whomever loses this bout (read: Velasquez) will need an opponent in the same window. Maybe I just want to see Cain/Shane.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmm
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
As great as
Cain, JDS and Carwin have looked thus far, they don’t exactly have world class resumes either… A lot of this is contingent on at least 2 of those guys having fairly dominant careers after losing to Lesnar (should that happen).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
They were good fighters, but not much more than "gate keepers" according to modern lingo
Herrings only real notable wins came over Igor Vovchanchyn and I guess maybe Tom Erikson. Tough as nails, sure elite fighter… Not so much.
Schlit too… These guys had records hovering around .600 when they fought Fedor. That is not the mark of an elite fighter. That is Cheik Kongo, Gilber Yvel, Clay Guida territory.
Way too many folks dissing Igor…
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not dissing him. Just saying that Herring had one notable win
and a number of notable defeats (Nog, Belfort, Cro Cop) before and after he fought Fedor.
It's sort of a general comment
people knock Igor way too much
"We should just concentrate on what we’re good at… Death Metal and interior design." – William Murderface
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Herring was about 10 seconds away
from beating Fedor.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 12, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He won that Belfort fight...
crazy PRIDE rules screwed him there, but that is kind of neither here nor there due to the weight difference. The Kerr win was big (and awesome) as was the Erikson win (there’s really no debating that being the first man to beat that monster was big), the Igor win was big also. And let’s not forget that during a 13 fight win streak for Nogueira, Herring was one of only two men that took him to a decision…and Heath gave Nogueira a hell of a fight.
The guy was legit top 5 in the world for a period. That’s not a gatekeeper.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Clay Guida was legitimately top 5 in the world?
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, Coleman was DONE when Fedor fought him BOTH times
You forgot Herring, Schilt and Hunt and Rogers though.
Fedor has beaten 8 top 10 fighters in his career. 3 of which were in the past two years
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
You said they "weren't in that class", they were top 10 fighters
Herring was number 4
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't really care where he was ranked.
Herring was never elite, just like Rogers. Good fighters not great fighters.
Well then Fedor has only beat 2 elite fighters
CroCop and Nog.
And Brock has beaten none really. Elite means good over an extended period of time.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Elite means good over an extended period of time.
Nope.
Elite means the best or most skilled members of a group.
How do you know if they are best or most skilled till those skills aren’t tested? Very few of today’s HW have been tested by top talent.
This is an interesting point. He’s willing to dismiss Kevin Randleman as a bum – despite the man winning the UFC title – but assumes Carwin and dos Santos are top guys based on….?
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Mir’s a quality win at HW.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
They better not fast track Schaub if he somehow manages to get past Gonzaga. He’ll get murdered.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I said Randleman was passed it at that point
Due to a series of losses at LHW.
I didn’t say he was always a bum.
You have to remember Coleman was round 1 of a tournament the first time. Imagine these guys in tournaments today. Imagine them fighting 10 minute rounds? It’s like apples and oranges.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 3:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Doesn't matter. Coleman wasn't a top 10 fighter when Fedor fought him
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Herring and Randleman were both top guys when Fedor faced him. He only faced Hunt because CroCop was injured and they couldn’t get anyone to replace him. Even still he was coming off a five out of six streak with wins against guys like Wanderlei and CroCop. And I don’t think you realize how big the Nog wins were. He beat him in his guard, which no one was even attempting. Not to mention early wins against Arona and Sobral. I think Brock has a long way to go to be called greatest of all time.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 3:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Randleman was a top guy despite recent loses to Kazushi Sakuraba, Quinton Jackson
Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture and a 15 -7 record going in? He was a good fighter, and the Cro Cop win was impressive, but again he wasn’t much more than a gatekeeper at that point that is all I am saying.
Herring was never a top guy. He fought top guys ans lost to all but one of them (Vovchanchyn). He was a gatekeeper in the truest sense of the word.
The Nog wins were huge. I never said anything bad about the Nog wins, I am just saying the number of true top flight opponents isn’t that high.
I am just saying the number of true top flight opponents isn’t that high.
But considering the quality of the HW class at any given time back then, the majority of the fights were pretty legit imo.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 12, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough... I am just saying that out minds shouldn't be blown if Lesnar
obtains a similar number of wins against top flight guys.
Fedor:
Nog x 2
Coleman x 2
Cro Cop
Sylvia
Arlovski
Schlit
Hunt
Herring
Randleman
I think there are 7 legit dudes there.
Lesnar:
Couture
Mir
Carwin
Herring
I think there are 3 legit wins there.
If Lesnar goes on to defeat Cain and JDS that number goes up to 5. He won’t be there, but he will be in the ball park.
Nah.
Schilt was a top ten fighter then. I mean we have to go with that despite him never being a good fighter. The real top HWs back then were 1-6ish, but they had to have a top 10 and it included barely above average fighters.
Coleman was NOT top 10 the first time. He had fought twice in three years. One was a loss. Twice in 3 years. And the 2nd time he was in even worse shape. Neither were “legit”. Much less legit than Herring.
Herring was a top 5 fighter and was very legit at that time as a great striker and a hard motherfucker to finish.
Randleman was not top 10 and he was basically a blown up LHW.
Hunt, like Schilt, was not really a top 10 good fighter, but he was a top 10 fighter by rankings, so we have to go by that.
Fedor: Schilt, Herring, Nog, Nog, Crocop, Hunt, Sylvia, AA
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't argue with historic rankings, but I can argue the validity.
There are certain guys that I see as glorified gate keepers. Ultimately, the HW division wasn’t all that deep on either side of the ocean.
The issue is
We look at who was a top 10 HW at the time and think, “WTF these guys weren’t that good” which is true in the perspective where we see how good the division is today. That fact is, at the time those guys were the best and we should treat them as such (imo).
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
by Chris Barton on Oct 12, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If you’re top 10 then you are, by definition, not “barely above average”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Herring should be left on both lists.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
the Cro Cop win was impressive, but again he wasn’t much more than a gatekeeper at that point that is all I am saying.
I don’t know how you can say that when the following year CroCop went on to win the Open Weight tournament. He was at the top of his game when he faced Fedor. Far from a gatekeeper.
I don't understand how you can say a guy who went
1 – 6 in that time period was “on the top of his game”
Ah, I thought with this quote you were talking about Fedor. My bad.
the Cro Cop win was impressive, but again he wasn’t much more than a gatekeeper at that point that is all I am saying.
And if you are talking about Randleman he was not a gatekeeper at that time. He was competing against the top tier guys. He became one after getting beat by Fedor. The CroCop win came just before he fought the Fedor fight.
Cro Cop was a gatekeeper? Really?
The guy was 16-2-2 coming into the fight. He got caught by Randleman and avenged the hell out of that loss and lost in one of the most epic fights in MMA history to Nogueira (who is currently the #2 heavyweight in the history of the sport). He was on a 7 fight win streak with wins over Aleks, Randleman, Barnett (injury, but still a W), Magomedov, Coleman, Oyama and Kanehara (who despite his poor record has been in with EVERYBODY). If a guy with only one unavenged loss (to one of the greatest ever to fight) and riding a major win streak over serious talent is a gatekeeper than I guess the sport only has 2 or 3 people in it above that level.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Randleman's win over Cro Cop was impressive.
but Randleman was no better than a gate keeper at that point.
I rate Fedor on two parts: 1 as a HW and 2 as a fighter. As a HW we can divide his wins as:
Elite Level:
Heath Herring
Big Nog x2
Cro Cop
Tim Sylvia
Andrei Arlovski
(I know people are going to laugh at the last two but people have to remember the conversations going around in 2008. Those were two very legit and big wins for his legacy)
Good
Mark Coleman
Bobby Hoffman
Seemy Schilt
Mark Hunt
Solid
Mark Coleman (2nd fight)
Naoya Ogawa (7-0 at the time with a win over Gary Goodridge)
Kevin Randleman
Gary Goodridge (not a top opponent by any means but 7-1 in his previous wins and nowhere near the can he is now)
Kazuyuki Fujita (9-3 at the time with his only losses to Cro Cop and Coleman)
Babalu (actually weighed more than he did)
Ricardo Arona (open weight)
So that is 6 Elite wins, 4 good wins, and 7 soiid wins, along with his 15 victories against the less spectacular opponents. This is what Brock has to measure up against. Brock has already got 3 elite wins and 1 good win, along with his victory over Kim, so if he gets wins against Cain, JDS, and maybe Overeem or a rematch with Carwin without losing in that span, I"ll have no problem putting his accomplishment alongside Fedor’s. And if not his then maybe Cain or JDS who are already neck and neck with Brock in the accomplishment departments.
As a fighter I rate a few of his victories higher. I think many people miss out on the fact he is really an open weight fighter. He fights at HW because he doesn’t want to cut weight not because he’s a HW. So when fans criticize his victories over Babalu or Randleman because they were LHW they miss the fact that he was the same size as they were. When he beat Randleman he beat the #7 LHW in the world. The best comparison I could make is, while I wouldn’t have given Arlovski or Sylvia credit for beating Ortiz when they were HW , I definitely would have given Couture credit if Ortiz went up a class.
by John Nash on Oct 12, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I should have put Brett Rogers in with the good.
by John Nash on Oct 12, 2010 9:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Umm…Ogawa as a good win? He is a guy who’s wins were almost all against people who were throwing the fight.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 12, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
In hindsight, not that good. But it was respectable – if not spectacular – at the time.
by John Nash on Oct 12, 2010 10:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Most everyone in MMA circles realized that Ogawa was going to be trounced in short order and was a fraud.
by VirtualBalboa on Oct 13, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Randleman was NOT
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He had just beaten Cro Cop in his return to the heavyweight division and it was part of a tournament so it’s hard to really hold that against Fedor.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah IF he wins
If he beats JDS and Cain, best UFC heavyweight, no doubt.
Having said that, Fedor set the bar pretty damn high for GOAT.
Also: why did you mention Heath Herring as a top HW before Cro Cop? Are you letting UFC 119 influence you a bit too much, maybe? I noticed you also did not mention Josh Barnett.
Still good article and very true.
The discussion was about how Pride took over as the home of the top heavyweights. Herring was there at the time. Cro Cop and Barnett weren’t significant players in the promotion until a couple of years later.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Good piece, JS!
The HW division is a confusing thing to understand indeed!
There are a whole list of things that one could say is the “cause” behind the lack of consistency from the title holders, but I think Lesnar’s size and athleticism is going to press the talent and competition within the division—and possibly— change the weight requirements in itself.
I think when you get bigger fighters like Lesnar or Bones Jones that are bigger and athletically superior than the competition it causes restructuring of fighters within that division and also makes fighters step their game up.
I still see the need for a different weight class for fighters over 245lbs, but I like what Lesnar brings to the sport.
Semper Fi
PREDICTION for 2010-2011 NFL Season: "The England Patriots will finish 8-8 plus or minus 1" ~8/13/10 1230p
It's still a but surreal to me
that this guy, who was irritating as hell in the WWF (back when I watched I was a DX guy), now become one of the best (if not the best) HW fighter in MMA.
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
The sad, small history of the UFC's heavyweight champions over the years.
As opposed to Fedor’s PRIDE legacy of defenses against
1) Crocop
2) Big Nog (I count unifications)
3) …..Mark Hunt
The PRIDE belt was only held by 2 people and only defended 3 times total. What does that say about them?
That title fights weren’t really part of how they operated or promoted? In every Fedor fight he put his legacy of success on the line. The belt was just an accessory.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
But if we allowed Brock the same comforts, people would be calling for his (and Danas) head on a platter. If Brock were to fight several “freak show” fights people would fume. Leasnar vs Toney, Lesnar vs Kimbo etc, he could build an inflated record (like Fedor) but he would be crucified. I will take my UFC champs like GSP who will lose once or twice but regain his title. Going 13-2 against the best is a greater achievement than going 23-0 against scrubs with a sprinkling of decent fighters.
by Riney on Oct 12, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
Nothing says "legacy"
Like Hunt, Lindland, Choi, Martins, Koshaka..
Sorry…Fedor was handled with kid gloves. Brock is constantly being thrown the best the HW division has to offer. Brock greatness will overshadow Fedor’s hype before he hits 10 fights.
If the UFC scheduled Brock’s next fights against Nelson, Gonzaga, Kogno and Rothwell (which would STILL be more quality than Fedor faced while PRIDE was milking him).. you guys would be whining so hard you’d pop a vein.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 12, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Like Hunt, Lindland, Choi, Martins, Koshaka..
You’ve hand selected some fighters here. Of course you’ve included Kohsaka which was an important fight that settled his only remaining score at the time and left off Nagata which was a bad matchup except at the box office.
Looking at his schedule after winning gold and I think 14 of 19 are acceptable matchups. Not nearly as bad as some would suggest. Most of the others were matchups for money, kind of the equivalent of Couture-Toney if anyone in America gave a crap about Toney.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You’ve hand selected some fighters here
THAT WAS THE END OF HIS PRIDE CAREER!
Thats not a random list…thats a Fedor Winning Streak! He had a defense against Crocop in there and I left out Coleman by mistake.
You post that BS as a fanpost under a different name and see how quickly its eviscerated by anyone with more than a vague knowledge of MMA.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 12, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
THAT WAS THE END OF HIS PRIDE CAREER!
No it wasn’t. Hell, two of those fights weren’t even in Pride.
Thats not a random list…thats a Fedor Winning Streak! He had a defense against Crocop in there and I left out Coleman by mistake.
So, besides fights with two championship level guys it is a Fedor win streak? So that makes it…a random list?
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Whatever guy
That was his pre-US streak where he was hailed as the “greatest HW of ALL Time”
The point of your article is utter crap. You complain about the “quality” of the state of the UFC HW championship and then right here you say there isn’t even anything worth comparing it too. I’ll take the UFC’s history of constantly pitting their champions against the best they can over PRIDE’s occasional decent challenger with a load of filler in between ever day of the week.
It takes more than blah-blah-blah FEDOR blah-blah-blah NOG blah-blah-blah CROCOP! blah-blah-blah to make a meaningful article.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Were we reading the same article?
You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.
by timetraveltome on Oct 12, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“That says less about Lesnar, who is beyond dispute a beast of a man with the potential to be among the greats, and more about the sad, small history of the UFC’s heavyweight champions over the years.”
Directly implies that some other organizations heavyweight champions were very impressive over the years.
Yet in the comments we get “That title fights weren’t really part of how they operated or promoted”
So there was no point to the article other than an anti-UFC screed. Unless he is infereing maybe DREAM, SF or WAMMA.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 12, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
What article did you read dude?
That is not at all what Snowden was getting at in his article. Reading comprehension, give it a shot and get back to us.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Oct 12, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Oct 13, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about.
DISENGAGE
DISENGAGE.
Those are my mental alarms. Why do I never, ever, listen.
by Jonathan Snowden on Oct 12, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
aye
that’s generally the problem. Wins over Nog and Coleman are sandwiched by a streak of Egidijus Valavicius (career record of 4-2 at the time), Kazayuki Fujita (the right hook that nearly shook the world), Gary Goodridge and Yuji Nagata (career record of 0-2).
Wins over Babalu and Semmy Schilt came in between Ryushi Yanagisawa, Lee Hasdell and Chris Haseman. Combined records of 53-55-10.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Oct 12, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
How about Zulu?
Why did he not fight Barnett that night?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a fan of Brock's personality
but I can’t deny the skill level of him. If he can develop a striking game that is actually imposing, I would have to say that he may become close to unstoppable.
"90% of this sport is 50% mental" - Tim Sylvia
does anyone else think brock's wrestling is a tad overrated?
i am NOT trying to hate here, so please don’t flame me.
but he struggled to take carwin down (in the first round) and couture. of course he won both those fights in convincing fashion. but who has he taken down other than herring and mir?
anyway, i wonder why i ask these questions. it just pisses people off and we’ll see in a couple of weeks anyway. i for one am very, very curious and admit i do not know what is going to happen.
I could see it being "over-rated"
As it comes to takedowns. Although I don’t see JDS or Cain stopping one.
But I really judge “mma wrestling” by what they do to you on the ground.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 12, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see it as being overrated if you mean people think it's OMGTHEBESTEVER
It’s really good, especially when he takes the ttme to set up his takedowns.
He took Randy down twice and was only stuffed once. I woudln’t say he struggled. Carwin did block his firet takedown attempt (the rest were just Lesnar grabbing at Carwin).
I’d say Lesnar has the best wrestling in the division, but the difference between he and Cain aren’t as great as many think. At least I don’t think so. Then again, Kongo took Cain down.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
That takedown he hit on Carwin in the second round was textbook.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can swish an NBA three pointer once out of every 30 tries too, doesn’t mean I’m a good basketball player.
Good on Shane for blocking the first 29?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
These are two different generations. Could you imagine Brock or Carwin having to withstand 10 minute rounds? What would being in a ring versus being in a cage do? Where would his wrestling be then? It’s kind of like the debate over closers. Mo is the greatest closer of all time but he didn’t have to get three out saves like Goose. I think the huge differences have to be taken into account when looking at this debate.
Could you imagine Fedor in a cage?
Could you imagine him fighter good fighers each fight?
I’d say Fedor goes 20-10.
"Boy you got me confused with a man who 'peats himself"
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
Follow me on Twitter
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Oct 12, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s not like Brock has only fought top huys. Let’s see Brock beat Cain and JDS then I think the discussion can begin. I still think UFC and Pride are two different kinds of MMA completely.
One fight - Min Soo Kim
Since Brock got to the UFC, it’s all been murderers. Heath Herring in your third fight ever – no amateur record – is absolutely bonkers.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Heath Herring is a murderer? According to most on this board he barely falls above HMC.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 5:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Most on this board are very, very wrong.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And besides, you don’t want to remove one of the few legit top 5 guys on Fedor’s record, would you?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Herring was a top guy, especially when he faced Fedor, but not a huge drop off against Brock. Something to remember is Hereing replaced Coleman who is another guy that has gotten bashed here.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 7:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So what you’re saying is Herring was actually less favorable to Brock than his originally scheduled Hall of Fame opponent. Got it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
For every one Kim Lesnar fought
there are 10 of those on Fedors record. And yes, the UFC and PRIDE are 2 comepelty different promotions. One has never been accused of fixing fights.
Let’s see him go for 10 years without another loss. I guarantee you some time after we will look at who Brock fought that we think are good now, just like many Fedor fought, and see them as well below average fighters years later.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 7:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's such shit
Of course Brock won’t go undefeated for a decade. He won’t have cupcakes in between his challenging bouts like Fedor did.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
When Mark Hunt faced Fedor he was seen as a much better fighter than he is thought of today. Now he is seen as “cupcake” as you put it. The HW Brock has and will be facing are even more untested than a guy like Hunt.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 7:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Putting Hunt against Fedor was absolute insanity. Fedor should have been fighting top ten heavyweights every time out, and he didn’t. It’s really a pretty crappy resume, made impressive by no blemishes.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Oct 12, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Hunt was coming off a great run of wins, including Wanderlei and CroCop, with only two losses (one to Barnett and the other to Yoshida in his MMA debut). And he was a late fill in since CroCop was hurt. He was a K-1 champion. His resume when he faced Fedor was so much better than Reem’s is at HW today so by that standard it is insane that Reem face Fedor. Got it.
1. Hunt was #8 when he fought him. He had won 5 of his previous 6 fights, beating Wandy and Cro Cop and losing to Barnett.
2. He was a replacement when both Cro Cop and Barnett turned down the fight due to injuries.
But it’s Fedor, so obviously it’s a joke. It’s not like you wouldn’t throw a stink if Couture defended the belt against a 2-1 fighter who wasn’t in the top 10 or Anderson Silva had to take on less than stellar opposition because his original opponent got injured.
by John Nash on Oct 12, 2010 10:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s only in hindsight that Hunt’s near submission in that fight becomes absolutely hilarious. I wonder if Fedor was sleeping on the match up too because Hunt has shown his utter lack of ground skills since then. Hunt is a real beast on his feet, he just has a huge flaw in his MMA skillset.
I’m thinking Hunt actually trained for that fight.
by John Nash on Oct 12, 2010 10:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Did Fedor?
Obviously Hunt worked hard for the McCorkle fight, going as far as to train with ATT even. he lasted all of a minute against McCorkle. Once the fight hit the ground it was over(as with the Overeem fight, the Mousasi fight and the Barnett fight). Don’t try and tell me that Sean McCorkle is a better ground fighter than Fedor. Hunt is a incredible striker who managed to win split decisions against Cro Cop and Wandy but the hole in his MMA game is huge.
I believe Fedor had ice cream in between his bouts, not cupcakes.
by ufc4 on Oct 12, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It depends on what you are comparing, talking about best ever you have to compare them in the context of the timeframes in which they were active. For Fedor’s fights it’s not the one’s that make you scratch your head now that are the issue, it was the one’s that had people scratching their heads then (Zulu?, Matt Lindland?). It was a very different sport in terms of talent and fight booking even 5 years ago.
If you are comparing to see who is the best right now in this time frame (active in the sport) then the fact that we can look back and tell that some of those guys were historically overrated.
Personally I scratch my head at saying anyone from the heavyweight division is now or has ever been the “best ever” as heavyweight has always been a piss poor division in MMA. Fedor had a real aura about him due to being undefeated for so long but a lot of lighter weight fighters have fought substantially tougher competition over the course of their careers.
by who me on Oct 12, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“It was a very different sport in terms of talent and fight booking even 5 years ago.”
Everything was different between Pride and UFC. Rules, ring, rounds. You can see Fedor is not as good in the cage. He likely rolls out of that triangle before it got sunk in but he ran up against the cage. On the flip side, Brock’s wrestling would be severely limited in a ring and I think a 10 minute round would pose a real challenge for him. We see the difference in fighters from CroCop to Liddell. So, I think it becomes very hard to compare
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 5:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The cage and the ring require different fight strategies but in the end it’s still MMA. A truly good fighter should be able to work in both enviroments, particularly if given more than one fight to adjust.
True. But with the new generation we will never know because we won’t see them in both environments. But, every sport has these issues. It is just a little bit more rare in an individual sport vs a team sport.
by memitim on Oct 12, 2010 7:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
at this stage in mma we're getting into what boxing and also the NFL has
there will be no more clear cut greatest ww or mw or hw anymore, theres gonna be gsp anderson silva and fedor then the new crop of champs who take over
no matter what brock does people are gonna think fedors run at the top was better, similar to how people think johnny unitas is the best qb ever or joe montana is, or how ali or joe louis are the best hw boxers of all time, its all a matter of opinion
right now fedor is the undisputed best ever at hw but with a few more wins brocks gonna be able to be argued too but his claim will never be as clear cut as it is with fedor
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
Brock Hypesnar
This is stupid. Brock Lesnar the best heavyweight period? Im thinking about going to another blogs. This lesnarlovers.com dont feels right anymore.
Lesnar is just hype. Shane Carwin almost kill him before run out of gas and im sure Cain is a better fighter than Carwin.
Plus, he won a boring desicion against a past his prime Herring and KO a too old Couture. He lost against Frank Mir in worst fashion than the famous Fedor lose to Werdum. The only fight where he looks good was in the second fight against Mir. In that fight he looks great and even me started to think that he is gonna be the next big thing but then comes Carwin and destroy him in a ugly way for the entire first round until his gas tank run out.
If the way we’re writing about the biggest star in the sport is bothering you then yes…you should go to another blog. Snowden wrote two pieces about Lesnar today, he’s also written critical pieces about Lesnar. If you don’t like it, don’t complain and think we’re going to change our coverage for you…just go somewhere else.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
uh
I could be sitting here with just pee stains on my rug.
by Earl Montclair on Oct 12, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
if you actually look at how many times fedor’s belt was on the line and he could have lost it, it’s not that many times either. there was a great article somehwere on sbnation that was talking about fedor has/was/been the consensus best hweight, but he only actually defended his belt sproadically while in pride.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Oct 12, 2010 9:36 PM EDT reply actions
Fedor's defenses
Crop, Big Nog and Mark Hunt
Thats it
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 12, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought this was already addressed a few times on this board. Pride didn’t treat their belts the same as say the UFC. The Gran Prix was a much big part of their overall brand. Many of Fedor’s fights in Pride came from competing in the Gran Prix.
Which was basically an excuse to feed all of their big draws 1 or 2 freebies before fighting someone worthwhile. A nice way to pad win records and easily excuse losses.
Also allowed their “champions” to lose without giving up a belt.
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 13, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m sure Reem was happy to draw Werdum in the first round of one of his GP and CroCop had to face Randleman in the first round of one of his. And Fedor getting Coleman in the first round. Look at all those freebies.
The Gran Prix is who they were. It was part of their brand. They sold out Saitama Arena consistently with the Gran Prix. You may not care but it’s what the fans wanted back then and helped make Pride the top organization for the better part of a decade.
Not to mention,
Fighting more than once in a night is incredibly badass, especially when it’s top comp.
@Lunatic-Fridge: I don’t necessarily think champions losing in a Grand Prix non-title fight is such a bad thing. Wanderlei losing to Arona, then sending out his hyper-intense protege Shogun to do what he could not really packed the last bout of Final Conflict 2005 with a ton of atmosphere. But hey, I was raised on pro-wrestling so…
The only time all the opening round fights were decent was 2003. But it also only had 8 people. Had they started with 16 they’d have still had 7 BS fights and 1 good one.
Every other tournament MAY have had 1 decent fight in the opening round, but the vast majority were milking their roster.
And lets not go into what PRIDE would do to fill Saitama Super Arena… the 1 great fight doesn’t excuse the other 10 freak shows PRIDE was built around
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 13, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
But the point you are overlooking is
PRIDE didn’t use this format to “protect” their fighters or “pad” anyone’s record, it is simply what the paying customers preferred to see at the time and was therefore (in their opinion) the most profitable type of show to put on.
Any “protecting” or “padding” that occurred was not by design, but simply a necessary corollary – a side effect if you will, of that style of promotion.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Any "protecting" or "padding" that occurred was not by design, but simply a necessary corollary – a side effect if you will, of that style of promotion
I wouldn’t buy that as a decent excuse for weak fights from anyone. Not the UFC, SF or PRIDE
by Lunatic-Fridge on Oct 13, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I was speaking of
The tournament or GP formats, where it is legit…however, when it comes to straight up match making you are absolutely correct.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it."
-Mark Twain
"If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you know I'm lying..."
-Bruce Lee
by The American Ronin on Oct 13, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
if ...
Brock beats Cain then Dos Santos …
If your Aunt had balls she would be your uncle …
Nope ...
I am saying he won’t get by Cain … let alone have a chance at JDS …
and ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a merry xmas …
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bloody Elbow
Related FanShots on Bloody Elbow
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
