How Dana White Handled the Lyoto Machida Over Mauricio "Shogun" Rua Decision
by Kid Nate on Jan 8, 2010 9:24 AM EST
in MMA News
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Interesting behind the scenes account from the new Esquire profile of White:
Visibly angry with the decision — Who cares what I think? I'm only the fuckin' promoter! — White retreats with his entourage to his private dressing room, where he is joined by two financial officers from Zuffa. Along with Lorenzo Fertitta, White decides who should win the bonus money for best submission and the rest. Bonus checks for all the fighters are written out by hand. When they get to Shogun's check, White orders the accountants to "pay the taxes." Meaning, essentially, that he wants Shogun's previously contracted payday to be doubled.
With a check for $250,000 in hand, White goes off looking for Shogun.
When the defeated challenger sees the boss enter his dressing room, he rises shamefacedly from his bench — his body language says defendant about to be sentenced. His manager stands stolidly at his left elbow; his entourage surrounds him in a semicircle.
White hands Shogun his check. He points to the amount. "Tell him that's the real number," White instructs the manager.
"Thank you, thank you very much," Shogun says in heavily accented English. Back home in Curitiba, Brazil, his wife is expecting their first child. He looks appreciative — if not exactly satisfied.
"We paid the taxes," White reiterates. Maybe he didn't understand? He points to the check again. "That's the real number there. That's take-home pay."
Shogun listens to the translation. He ratchets his proud, chiseled jaw one crank higher. "Okay, thank you," he says. "Thank you very much."
"I know it doesn't erase what happened."
Resigned: "No, no problem."
"But it's gotta make you feel a little better." White elbows the fighter playfully in the triceps — I just gave you an extra hundred grand, dude, lighten up!
Shogun breaks down and smiles for real. White regards him appraisingly. "Do you want a rematch?"
No translation is necessary.
This is Dana White at his best, trying to make things right for a fighter who got screwed by the system.
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Here comes two hundred comments about who really won that fight.
by ufc4 on Jan 8, 2010 9:27 AM EST via mobile reply actions 2 recs
You know who won?
MMA Websites with pay-per-impression ads.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Jan 8, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Best Comment!
The debate will continue until they both enter the Octagon for their rematch.
Happy Holidays and A Happy New Year
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 8, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
I will keep my mouth shut on that, but share this bit:
I am going to UFN on Monday with tickets for friends due to people at Zuffa caring about how horrible my holidays went and my inability to go to the first UFC event in my state due to said holiday season.
Guillotine.
Good for you! Hope you have a great time.
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!
by slapjaw ackrite on Jan 8, 2010 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
Amazing moment
Glad there was a reporter there to share it with us.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Nice
I’m not a fan of Dana White, but that was pretty dang cool of him!
Shogun deserved that win and got a very bad decision. That being said, I think Machida is going to beat him in a rematch.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I agree. I think a fighter like Machida can adapt and game plan to overcome his weaknesses of the first fight. Shogun admits that he’s been fighting the same way his whole career and doesn’t plan to change a whole lot. If Machida can negate all the leg kicks he was getting routed with last time.
I've said it before
As long as you don’t try to be a hot shot (see:AKA), don’t screw the UFC over (See:Karo), I feel like the UFC will be there to help any of its fighters out, and are always trying to do what is right by the fighters.
Sorry
Dana White is evil.
I heard it on the internet.
If White had these articles posted more often
and had a few less rants about absurd b.s., then he’d be amazingly less polarizing and probably a lot more likable.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 8, 2010 9:38 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
If he were a completely different person, that might help too.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Jan 8, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
also true
but even dummies can be taught basics, like occasionally learning when to shut their mouths. White hasn’t tried to learn this yet, but maybe things like this will finally sneak into his dome.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 8, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
“but even dummies can be taught basics, like occasionally learning when to shut their mouths.”
Dude, the internet is my counter-example. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Someone has clearly hacked Orcus’ account.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
Even if I don't think that this is the true picture of the fight....
…. damn, sooo well done. Can’t stop laughing!
haha
me either, I think Shogun got robbed, but I thought this was funny as shit :p
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
C'mon... look at this picture and tell me with hand on your heart that you think Machida lost:D
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
I like to look at this one instead
and yeah, cross the heart, he lost :p
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
Yeah, we could picture that fight in many ways :p
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Was typing this. I don’t see how this shows Shogun getting beat up…or even looking beat up.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Where did I type that this picture shows Shogun getting beat up?
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
that's not true
they fell in love when they were kids, would you like a cup of pee?
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
by Orcus on Jan 8, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 12 recs
I read you’re post as “well I can make it seem like Machida was doing well too”
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
yup, he lost.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 8, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Stupid me. I thought that if I post a picture of Machida sitting with remote control I’ll be able to manipulate you guys, play on your emotions. My fail…
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
lol
there are quite a few pictures out there with Shogun getting the short stick of exchanges, but you chose one where neither guy was in danger :p
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
Well, I’ve said that we could picture this fight in many colours, haha, not only won-lost.
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, you guys see this TOTALLY different from the way I do, which is the arbitrary and capricious nature of the payscale, whereupon your boss, if he sees fit, can double your pay on the spot. A system like that makes a mockery of the contract negotiation process, and the role that managers and agents play, while also undermines every other fighter’s ability to have good faith negotiations.
I know we’re all fanboys here, but what of Lyoto Machida, who had his win bonus essentially nullified by fiat? He won the fight, but in the boss’ eyes, he did not, and it’s highly unlikely that Dana was as charitable with his bonuses, cutting a TAX FREE check as a reward for his performance.
I can see why Dana doesn’t want the fighters communicating about the money they make…
by madiq on Jan 8, 2010 9:55 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Negative Nancy
I'm the kind of girl who loves to watch a GOOD fight!
--------
Join the DC Area UFC Meetup Group
http://www.meetup.com/DCUFCGroup
Seriously
If all you’re going to do is bad shtick, comment somewhere else.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Sorry Luke, I didn’t see a differentiation between my comment and the one above “Negative Nancy”. I’ll keep comments professional.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
it’s not uncommon for employees to get bonuses for great work, specially if you work at a firm and brought in lot’s of $$$ to the company. Shogun’s check was not tax free, Dana just decided to pay for the taxes himself. the way I see it, it’s DW’s money, and he can give it to whoever he wants (and I don’t like DW) :p
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
A bonus heavy payscale is very common for independent contractors, which fighters are.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
by szucconi on Jan 8, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And people hiring independent contractors paying extra to cover the taxes, while less common, is not completely unheard of.
Please let’s not misunderstand Dana’s use of “Pay the taxes.” I find it very unlikely that Zuffa is just going to eat the taxes on that 250k by not reporting it as an expense, and if they’re reporting it as an expense, it’s reported as Shogun’s income, so he’s paying taxes on it.
The story says they’re paying his taxes so he goes home with the full amount.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
They are saying that the check for 250k and he can deposit 250k in the bank, it’s not like when you or I get a check and it says we got paid x but we can really only deposit a smaller amount because taxes are withheld.
Maybe I’m just reading it differently. I’m seeing this as Zuffa will pay the taxes and he gets to keep 250k because Dana felt Shogun was screwed.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Oh I completely agree. Either way it’s awesome that Dana uses this sort of discretion when paying fighters. Like you’re never gonna get less than contracted but you could get waaaay more.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’re really going to complain about Dana paying EXTRA money?
Find one employee or agent anywhere in the universe that is going to complain about a boss paying above and beyond what is required by their contract.
Shogun getting paid extra effects no one in the world except the people paying it and the people receiving it. This did not effect Machida at all. I really don’t see how paying Machida extra can be considerred machida “having his win bonus nullified by fiat.” If there was a win bonus in the contract, the commission would have made sure he got it.
by Phildo on Jan 8, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I respect you all’s opinion, I really do. And I don’t expect too many people to see it the way I do. I just wanted to express an alternative viewpoint, one that I didn’t see expressed anywhere else.
Even from the tone of many comments, I can’t get over the sense that there’s a billion-dollar sports enterprise being run like it’s a mom and pop bagel shop. It might be fine that the proprietor wants to throw around money to curry favor and loyalty with the hired help, but for me, the bigger your operation gets, the more professional you’re supposed to become. I can’t help but hear these stories, of Dana wielding carrots and sticks with such aplomb, and not get a sense of how personal this is for him. It’s the side of the coin that allows him to say, “I can be your best friend, or your worst enemy.” Even the quote above has the tone of Dana fishing for his desired degree of thanks, like “hey buddy, I just gave you money, where’s my gratitude?”
Again, most of you think it’s all good, and you’re entitled to that perspective. However, I can’t think that the knowledge that, regardless of happens in negotiation (with managers, agents, and attorneys present), your boss can do big business, fighter to promoter, in the locker room, makes you feel confident about your business arrangement. Again, it may be the way of the world, but to me, it reinforces a power dynamic that isn’t conducive to fighters being treated more like professional athletes than the guy who shovels your driveway.
You might vomit if you saw the bonuses that govn’t contractor get. I don’t even disagree with you that much (although I do disagree), but it is the way business is done. You would never get a bonus like this in a mom and pop shop. This is a performance based bonus, very commonplace.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I thought that the Knockout of the Night, Submission of the Night, and Fight of the Night awards were “performance-based bonuses.” This is more of a “I thought you got screwed, so I’ll make you feel better” bonus.
Yes, it’s how business is done, but that doesn’t make it fair or transparent.
It’s fine that most of you guys like hearing that Shogun got “taken care of.” However, I also hear an undercurrent of “stop bitching about fighter pay, because these fighters are getting PAID, just under the table.” Therein lies the problem, which we saw manifested in the Randy Couture conflict. Randy claimed that he was promised he’d be one of the higher paid fighters, and he expected “locker room bonuses” to be part of his compensation. However, when he was disappointed by his bonus (which ended up being just an advance on his PPV cut) he got upset. My feeling is that a performance-based bonus, even one of unspecified size, can be provided for in a contract, while a discretionary bonus cannot. There’s no basis for saying, “Hey, you paid Shogun’s taxes when you thought he got screwed; are you going to pay mine if you think I get screwed?” You can however argue about why two KO of the Night winners might get two different sized bonuses, and if necessary, litigate about it.
I’d rather Shogun just make $500K, taking home $250K, rather than have Dana be magnanimous and agree to cover Shogun’s taxes, while “on paper” he makes $250K. In both cases, Zuffa is coughing up half a mill, but only in the second case does Zuffa signal the immense power over the fighters that it wields. The first case is a clear signal to the marketplace about how the fighter is valued, while the second is more murky, as it is largely based on whether the organization feels like hooking you up.
So yeah, Szucconi, I probably would vomit.
by madiq on Jan 8, 2010 7:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bullshit
This should almost certainly be considered performance based. You’re taking a lot of creative license with your reasoning, but so can I. Shogun had a hell of a fight and made himself exponentially more marketable in the process. You’re essentially saying that Dana doesn’t have the right to express his opinion in the locker room, and that’s plain stupid. He was hardly saying “You got robbed! I’m making phone calls on Monday!” and was more “That was a hell of a fight and a close call, I know you’re sore right now, but here’s a huge bonus for that performance”.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
The UFC runs business the way it wants as long as they honor their contracts, being fair or transparent to people whose business it’s none of has no bearing on how they do things.
Also nothing is under the table, it’s just behind the scenes of wannabe know it alls that thing they know everything the company does while in reality they don’t have a freaking clue.
Now the Randy situation has already been gone over basically, the guy let agents and rumors get in his ear and mess him up. In the end the only things we found out was that Randy got very well paid thanks to the UFC and that one should never fight the UFC in court because they’ll lose.
Finally what you’d rather Shogun make and reality are 2 different things, the UFC being magnanimous basically gives them the the right to do whatever they want. Dana has made it clear that they take care of the fighters who take care of them, just like any other business you do right by them they will reward you if you screw them they will screw you that’s as transparent as possible.
As transparent as the definition of “screw” is…
by madiq on Jan 8, 2010 8:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Dana did that as a favor to Shogun because he honestly felt like he won, the payscale is not as arbitrary as you make it out to be, they have the majority of these bonuses built into their contract. You can rest assured that Machida made far and away more then Shogun from that fight.
by ufc4 on Jan 8, 2010 11:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Doubling a fighter’s pay as a “favor,” or to reward a fighter for “winning the fight” in his eyes, seems pretty arbitrary to me. Yes, many fans thought Shogun got screwed by the judges, but that wasn’t the only fight that many fans felt were wrongly decided in the UFC. Is he doing this anytime a questionable decision goes down? Should he?
by madiq on Jan 8, 2010 8:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How does extra money for fighters make things less professional, it's not like he took money away from Machida.
Many professional organizations pay huge bonuses to their people based on performance. I used to work for a major telecommunications/data equipment provider (top 5 in North America) and they would regularly do this type of thing with their top sales people. On many occasions they “paid the taxes” on a bonus, which essentially means that the amount is bumped up to the point where the take home equals the bonus amount. Shogun will still pay the tax on it, his take home is just better. Really man, this is no way a “mom and pop” move. If anything it just sheds some light on the mysterious “locker room bonuses” we’ve heard so much about, and it also shows that the fighters contract amount is the absolute minimum that he or she is going to make, meaning a lot of the grousing about pay on the blogs might be more out of line than we think.
Also wondering where you get the idea that this somehow affects Machida. The guy won and got his contracted win bonus. The fact that his opponent, in a very close match also got a bonus, shouldn’t affect him in any way. I mean it’s not like he go less because Shogun got more.
Finally your comments on the interaction between Dana and Shogun seem off base as well. To me Dana was just making sure that Shogun, a non native English speaker, understood exactly what he was being given.
by Canucklehead. on Jan 8, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
If your company paid bonuses to the Top 5 sales people, and also paid a bonus to the #6 person one year, because in the boss’ estimation, Six was a better salesperson than Five, the sales force might grouse at the favoritism, even as the begrudgingly acknowledged that the company can do whatever it wants (within reason.) That’s all I’m saying, if the “Top Sales People” get bonuses, then giving bonuses to non-Top Sales People distort the incentives. If the bonus is large enough, the unstated criteria for achieving the bonus overshadows the stated criteria. Again, I’m not so naive to be surprised by this, but I can be measured with my praise.
by madiq on Jan 8, 2010 8:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Its the way almost every big business is run
You have a contracted amount that you are guaranteed. If you excel, or do good work, or meat goals etc, you get a bonus. I’m a contractor. I make a certain salary. If I do good work, if I impress my boss, if I make or save money, I get a bonus. That isn’t mom and pop, its business. He wasn’t showing favortism, he didn’t take money from another fighter, Rua isn’t the first or the last, every fighter knows there is undisclosed bonus or “under the table” money.
Handing out bonuses is not unprofessional.
by swells2048 on Jan 8, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What a truly absurd way to look at things
You agree to the contract on the front-end, thus you find it to be fair. Getting paid on top of that is an insult to the process? I guess you can argue against anything if you try hard enough..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Criticizing a policy doesn’t make me a hater, any more than agreeing with a policy makes you a sycophant. You don’t share my viewpoints, it’s cool, I get it. But you don’t have to question my integrity and objectivity, as if I’d defend the behavior if Scott Coker were doing it.
by madiq on Jan 8, 2010 8:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
By now, it's not a secret what Dana does......
…..a fighter shouldn’t need to have attorneys present to receive a bonus check. This isn’t something new, every manager and fighter knows how Dana is. Also, the UFCs business model is EXTREMELY UNIQUE. Even boxing and the WWE aren’t the same as the UFC.
As far as fishing for gratitude,
I took it to mean than Dana was just really trying to cheer the guy up. He brought him the check, said “look man, thats what you take home, understand? Come on, cheer up! You don’t gotta pay taxes! I know you’re upset about the decision, but this gotta help a little, right? Do you want to be a fuckin’ smiler?”
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!
by slapjaw ackrite on Jan 8, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Is it fair if my neighbour makes the same amount of money as I do, but pays less taxes? If that’s true should I report this and try and make law that he pays as much taxes as I do?
You seem concerned about the notion and illusion of fairness, which doesn’t exist in the real world. There’s always going to be something that tips the scale one way or the other, there’s no way around that. Now if Dana was figuring out ways to pay fighters less than their contractual agreement, whether by manipulating it through bureaucratic red-tape, or taxation, then I’d agree that it’s a mockery. However, in this instance he’s simply helping a fighter take more of his money home, while not manipulating the bonus structure. A contract is simply a guarantee of a certain amount, but it does not limit either party from any kind of further arrangement assuming that it is consensual, and that it does not undermine the primary status of the aforementioned contract.
One question is, does Dana do this sort of thing regularly, or does he do it when a reporter happens to be covering his actions and writing them down on a notepad?
So you think it’s more fair if Dana didn’t give out the bonus? Arbitrary is when he can cut your pay scale (Pride yellow card) at a whim. A system in where the promoter can give you more money is not capricious. Machida got his win bonus even though Dana and most people felt he lost. Shogun also got his win bonus because Dana felt he won. That is not arbitrary. That is Dana making it fair.
You managed to turn a positive into a negative. Congratulations!
That makes no sense whatsoever....
How does giving someone a bonus “make a mockery of contract negoations?” I’m sure Shogun and all the other UFC fighters who get big bonuses don’t see it as a mockery. On one had the people in the MMA blog-o-sphere bitch and moan and complain about fighter pay to no end and when the UFC at their own discretion gives someone a bonus to try and make something “right” all of a sudden it makes a mockery of negotiations?
Dana and many other people seen Shogn as the winner. Machida wasn’t cheated at all. He got what he was contracted to get. How can the boss giving someone more equate to somehow making a mockery of someone elses contract?
Machida Got the $ that was promised
He hooked Shogun up for getting screwed. What’s the problem?
by Myke25 on Jan 8, 2010 9:57 AM EST reply actions
This comment is kinda digging at me. There doesn’t always have to be a problem. Its just a fact. Just reporting about a story. People complain about the Zuffa payscale and they may have a point, but this is evidence that they take care of there fighters.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Of course they “take care of their fighters.” I never thought otherwise. In fact, I’m sure that stories like this are commonplace. My problem is the integrity of the system, where fighters understand that being in the boss’ favor matters above all else. Yes, it’s nice that fighters are getting laced with cheddar, but I’d rather that they get paid above board in a transparent way.
I take it you have never worked as a contractor? Those dudes suck up in a major way. It kinda gets sloppy. In some cases its because they want more work in the future. In some cases they want a fat bonus. This is the way of the world.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
In this case being in the boss’s favour means fighting your ass off. If other fighters are watching, they’re thinking “if I put everything I got into this I might get more than my contracted amount”. UFC gets fighters fighting their tush off, viewers get to watch fighters putting everything on the line, UFC get’s more people buying their ppv’s, everyone wins. I’m having trouble seeing who benefits in the transparent system you’re proposing.
Sorry
I was responding to madiq’s whiney comment, not the article
by Myke25 on Jan 8, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
He was making a point about the lack of transparency of the bonus system and the negative effects he perceives it having on the financial relationship between the fighters and the promotion. It was a well thought out comment and not whiney at all.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
This reminds me of a robber baron going to the slums and giving a kid a nickel. Not to say White doesn’t take care of fighters, I think he does and it is a fact that he values loyalty. In fact, robber barons were notoriously philanthropic. They tend to do the right thing time after time, aside from White’s crazy rants, but they hold all the chips and take as much power as they can. They may start a Pullman style town and pay fighters in Zuffa bucks.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Yes, it does remind me of robber barons giving random kids in the slums nickels, as well as remind me of Nino Brown giving away turkeys at Christmas or Thanksgiving. Useful in making your name ring out, and conducive to building your rep as a legendary figure. Problem is, the Zuffa fighters aren’t schoolchildren, or grandmothers in the ghetto.
You are zeroing in on one thing, the power grab, and yes it is not a good thing. But they didn’t publish the story and there is no way to know how common “paying the taxes” is. Esquire was following him, he didn’t seek them out, but the observation may have destroyed the state of things, if you know what I mean.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Regarding Machida's perspective
I’ve been in a similar position before. I was a sales manager that was paid a bonus of $1200 for exceeding my goal by 50%. An associate of mine exceeded her goal by 25%, but because our goals were set based on previous year’s statistics, she was paid the same bonus of $1200. To me it felt incredibly unfair, even though it didn’t affect the money I was paid. For Machida, he won the fight by the rules that were given. Because Shogun exceeded White’s expectations, he was given the same pay. I think if Machida were a jealous and snipey little bitch like me, he would cry foul.
but then again, if you were paid rightfully based on your “contract and agreement”, why should it matter what your associate got?
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
Pretty much human nature to judge interactions based on a notion of fairness so in reality it almost always matters.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
Shogun was NOT paid the same as Machida for that fight.
by ufc4 on Jan 8, 2010 11:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
My only question is
Why did it take so long for this story to come out?
Dana gave Esquire more access than any of the mma media because he doesn’t hate them, so it would probably be harder (if not impossible) for anyone else to get this info, considering how little Dana talks about the extra bonuses with anyone in the mma media.
Then it took long to get out because this isn’t an article about UFC 104, they weren’t going to rush it to the press to put out a positive spin on 104
Because the Esquire issue just came out. Magazines usually have stories for 3 months before publishing and just sit on them until that issue is released.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks
I think its great and didn’t doubt it, but I don’t read Esquire and didn’t read the article till now, just the excerpt. I’m sure this happens more than we know. Fighters getting a more than in the contract because of performance, etc.
18 millionaires and top fighters competing every few weeks
At the top of the Esquire article it contends that the top fighters fight every few weeks and that White says the top 18 fighters earn millions a year. The first comment is obviously not accurate, do you think the second is i.e. including sponsorship, seminars etc are there 18 guys earning millions? That would place it ahead of boxing where I would say no more that half a dozen guys earn millions.
I don’t think it is unrealistic to say 18 get millions. Also, I don’t think that ranks above boxing.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
It’s not unrealistic to think that 18 fighters make millions. I’d probably say besides the obvious (GSP, Lesnar, Penn, Silva, Liddell, Ortiz, Griffen, Rampage) you also could add (Rashad, Koscheck, Machida, Wand, Rich, Hughes)…I’m sort of brain farting on the others.
Also not all boxers make Pac/Mayweather money so it’s not out of the question that UFC fighters earn more a year when you consider bonus checks and sponsors. Also consider that boxers don’t fight as often as MMA fighters.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 8, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
you forgot Couture, thats the big one that jumps out. Fedor could be another. I know all boxers don’t make Mayweather or pac money, but they are making tens of millions per fight. I think there may be a group of lesser fighters making millions. What are the super six making?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
This is a common delusion that a lot of people seem to have. Hell, Marquez made $3M to fight Mayweather and that was considered a huge payday that’d make him overlook his weight disadvantage.
I’d be very surprised to see more than 6-10 fighters that are making that sort of payday. Hell, can you name 10 boxers who could topline a PPV?
That was one fight, some guys fight a lot and in MMA even guys fighting big names don’t get near that payscale. How many fighters would you say make 250K a fight?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
If you take millions to mean say two million plus, I doubt very much there are 18 boxers earning that. There are the big names like Mayweather, Pacquio, Mosley, Klitschkos etc. Then there are the bit local ticktsellers like Kessler, Hatton, then the big names in Germany. If it stretches to 18 then it is barely.
by SDD on Jan 8, 2010 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Since it's per year and not per fight...
I’d think there are probably around 30 or so boxers making “millions” in a year. But the pay structure is different in each sport and there are also more boxers, and it is much more internationally relevant.
If you want to get into pure percentage of fighters. If the 18 number is true than a higher percentage of MMA fighters are making the “millions” than boxers.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 8, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Even gross, before taxes, expenses, I don’t think it’s near 30. From heavyweight down, Klitscho * 2, Haye, Arreola, Povetkin, Adamek, Dawson, Hopkins, Kessler, maybe Froch, Abraham, Ward, Pavlik,Sturm, Williams, Mayweather, Cotto, Margarito,Pacquiao, Hatton, Bradley, Marquez and below lightweight no one occurs. Anyway if there are 18 or more MMA practioners earning two million plus that’s fairly impressive.e
by SDD on Jan 8, 2010 1:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Its not just MMA.
Its UFC fighters. I think there are 18 in MMA. In the UFC….much tougher to come up with that. A possible list
Brock, Chuck, Tito, Randy, A. Silva, W. Silva, Rashad, Machida, Rua, Penn, GSP, Hughes, Franklin, Hendo (if you count him), Forrest, Mir, Nog, Rampage, Bisping, Cro Cop?, Gonzaga.
If we include sponsorship money then guys like Fitch, Kos, and some others could be added.
I saw somewhere that an agent was quoted saying
that his fighters received like 2/3-3/4 of their total earnings from endorsements and such. So take most of the fighters and multiply their in-ring earnings by 3-4 and you’ll be close, so long as they’re in the middle/upper-middle of the pack earnings-wise. I don’t think that rule holds for the Big Dogs, but it might.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I've checked the Esquire website a couple times for this profile. cool.
Dana takes care Shogun and people still hate on him. Proof people will just hate.
by snakecharmer1340 on Jan 8, 2010 10:37 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
should everybody just simply suddenly love White because he takes care of Shogun?
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
That is not what he said at all. More “people will find a reason to hate him BECAUSE of this”, you certainly make a case for hating him in spite of it. You can even hate him for this being necessary, but hating him for giving up more money then he had too, regardless of total sums, would be sort of crazy.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
by szucconi on Jan 8, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand what your saying but
Dana takes care Shogun and people still hate on him. =/= people will find a reason to hate him BECAUSE of this
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
The vast majority of people making comments are extremely in favor of the move. The few negative comments are backed with reasons not relating to hating Dana White.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
Good Job Dana
Never been a big Dana fan. I don’t like a lot of the crap he pulls, but it’s good to see the other side. He and the Fertittas made things right, when they didn’t have to. Now if we could get some officals who knew what the hell they are doing….
It was a great, close fight
But I think the key change Machida needs to make is to go to the ground and use some of his jiu jitsu, he needs to take Shogun down an make him pay for trying to throw kicks.
Or just get off first, throw leg kicks before Shogun does.
I would argue that Shogun got better jitz than Machida, but that’s just my view. Machida’s best chance is on the feet IMO.
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
machida hasn’t spent much time on the ground so a comparison is difficult
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
Well, shogun went through a few bjj tournaments and did quite well, winning one as well at the 80kg weight class. He got his black belt from Antonio Schembri (the same guy that gave BJJ BBs to wandy and the spider). Lyoto on the other hand got his BB from De La Riva, and never pursued any type of tournaments in BJJ. The only time we have seen Lyoto’s ground game was against Soko, and it was great game, although Soko is not very good on the ground. We have however seen Shogun’s ground game against quite a few people, including Lil’ Nog, which speaks volumes in his favor. While it is only my speculation that Shogun has a better BJJ game of the two, it is speculation based on facts.
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
He almost got choked out by Tito, almost doesn’t count, but Tito is not known for his bottom game. I tend to agree that Shogun is likely better on the ground.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I think that has more to do with the fact that Tito is seldom on his back in MMA. Just because he is not known for that doesn’t mean hes not very skilled from the position.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
You missed the fact that Machida won grappling fight with Rafael Lovato Jr. who is multiple BJJ champion Judo black belt, second (after Penn) American who won BJJ Championship. In my book that means something…
Maybe he competed in other grappling matches that we don’t know…
Also from what I recall, Spider got his black belt from Nogueira bros…
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
he was able to defend well against Rafael and won on points, but from what I understand, he didn’t try one single submission attempt. He trains with the Nogueiras today (sort of trains actually), but he got his BB before making the move to Chute Box.
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
Yeah, he didn’t, but it is worth mentioning that this fight did happen. And I’m not saying it means he’s better on the ground than Shogun (actually I like Shogun’s offensive BJJ and agree with you that he’s probably better than Lyoto), but it is an achievement not to get submitted by a guy like Lovato in his own game, so I guess Machida can hold his own on the ground with Mauricio.
I remember Rogan emphasizing many times that Anderson got his bb from N. bros. So I’m confused a bit.
by dancingChicken on Jan 8, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
no doubt
I mean, getting a BB from a name like De La Rosa when it meant to get BB’s from big names means a lot, I’m not trying to knock on Lyoto for this. I just give the edge to Shogun on the ground (if he can even get Lyoto to the ground, his sumo skills are top notch), but I don’t think Lyoto would invite the fight to the ground, which was my original opposition to the first comment.
As for Rogan, he likes to tell a lot of fisherman stories, you have to take it with a grain of salt :p
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
just so I can clarify a bit more
Anderson got his BB from Antonio Schembri when he was a Chute Box, the Nogs were at BTT during those days. Schembri is still with Anderson though, as he was hired as a BJJ coach at Black House.
Pain is Temporary
Pride is Forever
Unlike boxers, they fight every few weeks.
No.
the partners set about changing the rules of UFC fighting (e.g., time limits and rounds),
NO.
Depends on what "few weeks" is
Many of the UFC fighters fight 4-5 times barring injury.
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by snakecharmer1340 on Jan 8, 2010 11:57 AM EST reply actions
Dana is such a jerk
How could he do that?
by gocjeffe on Jan 8, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Dana did nothing wrong..
If he had the power to take Machidas win bonus and give it to Shogun, simply based on his own wim, then that would be wrong. He just simply rewarded a hell of a fight.
Do you pundits also find it “unfair” that he awarded Bonnar a contract as well after the Griffin fight? The original deal was the winner got the contract, not both.
I really can’t believe we actually have critics of Dana giving out to much money now.
Nothing ever makes everyone happy.
by Miketsi on Jan 8, 2010 2:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions
This is no surprise, I remember one story where I thought Karo was screwed out of a FOTN bonus and later on in the week in an interview with him he talked about how Dana gave him a check after his fight.
People have no idea how much Dana and company take care of fighters who bring it, this isn’t the first time or the last time something like this will happen.
But just like everything else the UFC does things behind the scenes and most of the stories will never see the light of day. Which is why I find all the talking heads going on and on about pay and other things they have no clue about simply to be clueless with their opinions.
Dana takes great care of his product. No one should be surprised, he has done this for years. What’s funny is DW treatment of the media/online media and how that impacts everyones image of Dana White the human being.
Dana treats the people in the sport well, if you are trying to pull down or destroy what he has built with wild accusations and misinformation he goes into attack mode. Anytime you attack someones business/family that is a common result.
Dana did the right thing that night to show his loyalty and appreciation, capitalism at its finest.
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