Gray Maynard Didn't Think B.J. Penn Was a Very Good Coach on TUF
by Kid Nate on Jan 6, 2010 1:06 AM EST
in News
85 comments
From SI.com:
"I would try to get 10 small shows first," said the former Michigan State wrestling star. "Someone should really be ready before they go on The Ultimate Fighter. If you do well, it will really pay off, but if you don't, people will say 'this guy sucks'."
"As a coach, you have to help the guys keep their goals, and I think he was just 'there'," Maynard said. "He was like 'I just want to go home.' I don't really think we had the best training."
...
"After trying out for the Olympics, I went to a jiu-jitsu school in Las Vegas with a couple of guys from Hilo," Maynard said. "Penn called me up. I didn't know who he was, but I went there and trained with him for about three weeks. The training was much better in Hilo than TUF. "
But to get his shot at Penn, Maynard first has to get past the man who eliminated him from contention in the TUF tournament, Nate Diaz. The first time they met, the green Maynard wasn't ready for Diaz' submission game. We'll find out soon if he's improved enough to beat Diaz.
If he can clear that high hurdle, Maynard promises to be one of the tougher challengers Penn has faced at 155lbs. He's got a wrestling game very comparable to that of a young Matt Hughes and he's nearly as big as Hughes, one of the biggest guys in the UFC lightweight division.
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Maynard might give Penn a fight
He just might be the only lightweight big enough and with enough power to “GSP” Penn, meaning completely wear him down with a vicious wrestling/pressure game combined with ground and pound and clinchwork.
He probably won’t. Be he’s the only lightweight that might be able to pull it off.
by mason_beer on Jan 5, 2010 5:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If Maynard gets to fight “his way”, it will be a very, very boring fight.
by grein on Jan 5, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree, maybe awhile ago but I think Maynard has gotten more entertaining
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 5:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, I used to be a bit of a critic of Maynard but he has won me over with his last few fights.
by brad23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
don’t forget Diego started at 185
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Everybody keeps saying this
But just because GSP layed a whupping on Bj doesn’t mean big strong wrestlers are Bj’s kryptonite. You guys are aware that Bj beat a prime Hughes right?
by hlebtasic on Jan 5, 2010 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stylistically, BJ has all the tools to beat EVERY tool of offense that Maynard has (better striking, incredible takedown defense, and incredible BJJ). There is a contingent of MMA fans that feel that Maynard can take BJ down, but even if he does (which I doubt will happen), what is Maynard going to do to BJ once he is down there? I can’t see Maynard passing guard on BJ, and BJ is great at nullifying damage even from his back, so ground n pound (which Maynard hasn’t even shown great ground n pound) from Maynard probably won’t work on BJ. To me, Maynard just does not come off as a threat to BJ in any way.
by chrisbboy82 on Jan 5, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As a BJ fanboy...
My only worry is that if they get him down, and that’s a big if here, BJ traditionally hasn’t looked great off his back against anyone content to just sit in his guard and hold him down. He was fat and all, but he still lost the first round to Renzo Gracie because he was taken down and couldn’t get back up again and the same could be said for the first GSP fight.
I don’t think any of the wrestlers at 155 would be stupid enough to try out their “improved hands” with him so the strategy is pretty simple.
I hope the fight happens though, because how BJ does against Maynard’s wrestling will say a lot about how he does against GSP.
by MesaDavey on Jan 6, 2010 7:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Maynard sits in BJ’s guard and holds him down, and seeing that Maynard has done that before with little to no ground n pound, then there will have a standup. The Renzo Gracie fight was back in July of 2005, and seeing that BJ is a much different fighter then back then, I just don’t see how that example holds much water. Also, BJ triangle choked (but didn’t finish) and swept Matt Hughes from his guard (transitioned to octopus guard and swept), and worked rubber guard against GSP in both fights (unsuccessfully of course). The point is that BJ has been active off his back when he has been taken there, and I don’t feel that BJJ-wise, Maynard is on the level of Hughes or GSP. Also, I can’t imagine Maynard for five rounds taking BJ down and just holding him, and not get any of his takedowns stuffed.
by chrisbboy82 on Jan 6, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Vasoline is BJs kryptonite ;)
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by JeremyShane on Jan 5, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If only Sanchez had been privy to this information a month ago.
Keep firing Assholes!
It’s as if you fell down a flight of stairs, then logged onto the internet.
by Ubernoober on Jan 5, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest, I doubt any of the coaching on TUF is that good. It’s a reality TV show for ratings, not an actual method of developing fighters.
The contestants are only there for six weeks or so (I think). That’s not enough time to make serious improvements in their training.
by Andy R on Jan 5, 2010 5:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tito was a surprisingly good coach in season 3. He took very good care of his team – when one guy left to tend to his bitter girlfriend, he took everyone out for sushi to boost morale. Maybe because he was contrasted with Shamrock, the worst coach until Rampage, he looked so good, but I remember him really doing well.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jan 5, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tito won me as a fan because of that show. I admit he’s a bit of a douche, but for the entirety of that show, he honestly did his best to help his fighters improve in every way.
Ortiz and Nogueira were the two best TUF coaches. Forrest and Pulver were pretty good too.
Rampage (and Tiki) and Shamrock are by far the two worst coaches on the planet.
by bcpjkell on Jan 5, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that Matt Serra was pretty good as well
On season 6 of TUF opposite of Matt Hughes, Serra came off as a very good coach and honestly the best cornerman (yes, he yells a lot, but he yells good advice) that I have seen. Rashad wasn’t too bad either.
by chrisbboy82 on Jan 6, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good advice?
FOOT STOMP!!! FOOT STOMP!!! FOOT STOMP!!!
by SHOGUNROBBERY on Jan 6, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not everything was gold of course (George! Pick him apart! one million times), but there were fights (I think the Mandaloniz one among others) where Serra would say to do something, his fighter would do it, and it worked (and it wasn’t just “GET UP.” He instructed them in how to do so.) Also on TUF 4, he Serra was cornering Shonie Carter, and it obviously helped Shonie immensely.
by chrisbboy82 on Jan 6, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he picked a bunch of bad fighters and bad matchups
by yngjzy on Jan 5, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to say the same thing
It’s not like they are looking for the best coaches to coach TUF. They are looking for the most marketable fight afterward. That being said, if you bring in a guy like Rashad and he chooses Greg Jackson as his assistant coach you will have great coaching.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
by dedstrk316 on Jan 5, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bisping and Henderson were both good coaches, I thought.
by mason_beer on Jan 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nog was an awesome coach. Maybe not because he techinically taught them so many things, but because the fighters got to watch first hand somebody do fighting the right way. He was a great role model for young fighters. Rampage, not so much.
by hlebtasic on Jan 5, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nog was awesome as a coach and seems like the ultimate nice guy.
Thought the part when someone hugged him was funny.
"John is a nice guy. He hugged me. I don’t care, you know. I like to hug too."
by grein on Jan 5, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I loved that part.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jan 5, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
The ultimate patriarch.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Jan 5, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nogueria was one of the only coaches who actually cared about his fighters as people. He cared as much for their attitude and drive to work hard as he did with their actual talent.
I remember him praising Shane Primm after his loss about Shane’s always positive attitude.
by bcpjkell on Jan 5, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember Nogueira saying with what was most likely complete honesty that he felt that Ryan Bader would be champion one day. He just had such great positive reinforcement for his fighters, and I can’t remember a coach going to the TUF house so much especially when one of his fighters had a fight coming up.
by chrisbboy82 on Jan 6, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maynard is going to beat Diaz in a boring 30-27 decision. The weak punches in bunches and give-up-the-back-and-slap-on-kimura act won’t work against a well-conditioned wrestler like Maynard.
by MMAEruption on Jan 5, 2010 5:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It stands to reason that a man so talented and dubbed a prodigy would have difficulty teaching. It comes to him naturally so he may be lost when someone doesn’t get it as quickly. Also, BJ owning a gym leaves some of his responsibilities back in Hilo. He may not run the day to day of the gym, but he certainly left some of his coaches in Hilo.
Can’t wait to see Maynard vs. Diaz live.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
by szucconi on Jan 5, 2010 5:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They say that Gretsky wasn’t a very good coach, and neither is Michael Jordan. Some of the best coaches are the guys that worked hard, and had to use hustle and brains to make up for what they lacked in intangibles. Larry Bird was one of the hardest workers and a great coach, Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, etc. They were all grinders and defenders as players. So it doesn’t surprise me much that BJ isn’t the ultimate coach.
I taught myself to play the guitar in high school and now I’m pretty good. A lot of people ask me to teach them how to play and I try my hardest but they just don’t get it no matter how hard I try and tell them. I get confused when they can’t get something that’s so simple for myself.
by Dooda on Jan 5, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bird was a wretched coach. Great players do not great coaches make.
by Ninkynonk on Jan 5, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Bird was a good coach. Didn’t he take his team to the finals quite a few times right when he took over? He seemed like a good coach to me at least, but I might have missed stuff going on in the background.
by Dooda on Jan 5, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless, if he was terrible that almost backs up my argument even more, as Bird was full of intangibles (he just combined them with hard work because he wasn’t very fast and couldn’t jump high).
by Dooda on Jan 5, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I just equate him being so ugly with being bad.
by Ninkynonk on Jan 5, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean Diaz gets a shot if he beats Maynard?
by rask4p on Jan 5, 2010 5:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 5, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
TUF contestants usually get special priviledges. It wouldn’t be right but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they give Diaz the shot. They’d just say he beat the guy who beat everybody.
But BJ would make Nate bleed, BAD.
by MMAEruption on Jan 5, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then they usually get obliterated in title fights
FIRE JIM MORA NOW!
by SSreporters on Jan 5, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, that last sentence seems like you’re saying Hughes is a lightweight… Maybe I’m reading it wrong…
Other than that, Penn beats Maynard, end of story
by verloc on Jan 5, 2010 5:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like Gray, but this is Penn talk is pure hype
He’s doing this because getting your ass beat by BJ Penn is still a PPV main event appearance that furthers his career tremendously.
He’s said before that he fully understands BJ is on another level, and the guys that train with him just know what would happen. Joe Lauzon talks about it in a pre-108 interview, how he did better in his real fight with KenFlo than he ever did in practice against BJ. Nate said the same thing too, that he wants no part of Penn whatsoever.
by LBo on Jan 5, 2010 5:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
nate said that he wants no part of bj??? it doesnt seem that that statement would fit with his persona…. i would like to see where he says that… link please?
by ironic sumo on Jan 5, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw that interview as well a few weeks back
by Ninkynonk on Jan 5, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he is the video if u havent seen it yet its near the end
shocked the crap out of me , never seen diaz back down like that ever
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iRYbhC9Rgo&feature=player_embedded
by superkhmer on Jan 7, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maynard has physical gifts that neither Kenny nor Sanchez have. We should look for a GSPesque game plan from Maynard.
by casey manrique on Jan 5, 2010 5:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Not saying its gonna go down like that, but I think that Maynards wrestling is top notch, much better then Diego and Kenflo’s. If Maynard can get his takedowns, which is a big IF, I can see him working some serious ground and pound.
by Fedorable on Jan 5, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In what fights has Maynard layed “some serious ground and pound?” And furthermore, how many of those fighters had Bjj like Bj?
by hlebtasic on Jan 5, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactally.. when was the last time Maynard finished someone besides himself?
by SerraJitsu0876 on Jan 5, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Besides the Jim Miller fight, where he was able to pick apart Miller while standing, Maynard has taken all of his opponents down at will (see: Edgar, Huerta, Clementi) and totally smotherd them. As GSP has shown, dominant wrestling, and strong top control is something that BJ can be vulnerable to.
I never said that it would happen, but if Gray was able to take BJ down and smother him on the ground, it wouldn’t shock me either
by Fedorable on Jan 5, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Huerta did a pretty good job the 1st round of defending takedowns, with BJ’s new cardio I think he shouldn’t have a problem.
by SerraJitsu0876 on Jan 5, 2010 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I felt he didn’t a pretty good job nullifying Maynard’s takedowns the whole fight. Huerta showed a lot of improvement.
by hlebtasic on Jan 5, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he has good wrestling. He “smothers” people. To me a fighter with “serious ground and pound” is somebody like Gegard. When Gegard gets top control he postures up and rains down punches. Maynard’s wrestling is more for positional control. Is Bj vulnerable to good wrestling? Maybe. I really don’t know for sure. He is definitely vulnerable to good wrestling when its against GSP who can knock him around on the feet first. Georges is also probably the best athlete in MMA.
by hlebtasic on Jan 5, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GSP dominated BJ because he outweighed him by 15+ pounds
by Ninkynonk on Jan 5, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Weight had about zero to do with it. BJ’s beaten plenty of heavier guys, including Hughes.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jan 5, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just because BJ can beat bigger guys doesn’t mean size don’t matter. GSP without the extra mass and strength would have found it much harder to take BJ down.
by cyph on Jan 6, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did you see many muscling takedowns from the clinch?
not too many.
mostly just well timed takedowns which work almost irrespectively of size.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Jan 6, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but he only got those after wearing BJ down in the clinch for a long time
so the size and strength difference DID matter.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Jan 6, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I exaggerated, but his point was that GSP won BECAUSE he weighs more, which is crap. Obviously it was a factor, but GSP is better on the feet and in wrestling, regardless of weight. Maybe GSP beat him standing just because his arms are longer, or “just because” he’s stronger. BJ took the fight full knowing, so tough. Why should Anderson ever fight Georges? If he wins it’ll ONLY be because he’s too big.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jan 6, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Try and imagine Maynard wrestling GSP and let that perspective sink in while you’re imagining Maynard’s wrestling on BJ.
GSP would dominate Maynard way worse than he did BJ. If Maynard got BJ down, his punches would glance off of BJ’s head with no effect. Bj would definitely submit Maybard quickly I think.
by Dooda on Jan 5, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I happened to watch Maynard/Diaz from TUF5 last night and thought Penn was giving great instructions to Maynard.
Of course, that’s different than the hours upon hours worth of training they don’t show us.
by bigweeze on Jan 5, 2010 6:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, Maynard said he learned a lot from 3 weeks of training in Hilo rather than the 6 weeks of training on TUF.
That just means that Penn isn’t necessarily a bad coach, it’s just that he wasn’t up to par while coaching TUF.
It’s probably hard to compare to a normal 6 week training at Xtreme Couture…but it’s not like Penn wasn’t busy having to prepare other guys also.
Joe Lauzon didn’t have any complaints about the coaching.
by MickDawg on Jan 5, 2010 6:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Andy Wang didn’t think BJ Penn was a very good coach either but he’s a warrior
by StevenGiles on Jan 5, 2010 7:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Since when is Hughes one of the biggest lightweights? I think you mean Welterweight?
-- FightCritic
by Armen on Jan 5, 2010 7:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i saw that, too
I wonder if nate meant to write ‘Penn’ there, although that doesn’t really work either. the welterwieght thing makes more sense
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
by Stillberry on Jan 5, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's confusing
but I’m pretty sure Nate means that since Maynard is nearly as big as Hughes, Maynard is one of the biggest UFC lws.
by some schmuck in texas on Jan 5, 2010 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree with "some schmuck..."
..It’s confusing, but upon 2nd read I realized that’s what Nate meant…..
by NeilLomaxFan on Jan 5, 2010 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Maynard promises to be one of the tougher challengers Penn has faced at 155lbs
yep. just like Sanchez, Florian, Sherk, Stevenson… Maynard should talk to Sanchez’s doctor, he does a good job after a Penn massacre.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
by vivero on Jan 5, 2010 7:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
People are making too much of the “huge wrestler” concept of a prototype to beat BJ. GSP has incredible takedowns, but he mixed them up with clinching, and crisp striking to beat BJ. His takedowns were almost always during switching levels and not just shooting blindly for double legs. His JJ top game is black belt level too!
GSP is a top (possibly THE top) P4p fighter for a reason. He beat BJ for many more reasons than wrestling. Matt Hughes was the most dominant wrestler in mma for a while, and BJ beat him DOWN in his prime. This new BJ that was showcased in the Diego fight has nothing to fear from Maynard. What we truly need is another elite LW striker that can test BJ’s kickboxing. I do not believe this “wrestler” formula is going to work for anyone except GSP
by amadeus on Jan 5, 2010 8:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Totally agree. I think a great kickboxer is really the worst match-up for Bj. He can keep him at distance with teep’s and work Bj’s legs and core with kicks. I think the majority of Bj’s strengths as a fighter come from how powerful his legs are. If you are able to weaken those I think you could go in for the kill. Looking at the lightweight division, I don’t see anybody like this though. Who’s the best kickboxer, Florian maybe? And how’d that one work out. Maybe if Zaromskis dropped to lightweight?
by hlebtasic on Jan 5, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
Florian had a horrific game plan. We honestly have no idea what it would be like if Kenny tried to strike with BJ, because he spent the whole fight against the cage
by Shaun32887 on Jan 5, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he tried to strike with him a bit...
…and we saw how that worked out. Kenny has nothing for BJ on the feet. Imagine what BJ will do to Gray.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Jan 6, 2010 7:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never felt like he really wanted to strike
for the sake of landing and scoring points. The striking seemed to me like he was just biding time looking for his next shot.
Just my impression though
by Shaun32887 on Jan 6, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you do that BJ – Stay there. No more hopping around.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Jan 5, 2010 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
totally agree Anton. BJ with PROPER weight on him is going to be a wrecking ball. I just keep getting this image of a BJ Penn skill set in a almost NFL Running back body. Would be sick to see.
by Pain on Jan 7, 2010 4:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, you just got One Life.
Roll the Dice.
by Dexerion on Jan 6, 2010 1:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
wait… why does this say it was posted at 1:06am? it was posted yesterday before 6:00pm.
I can see where Gray is coming from though, I never thought BJ was one of the better coaches they’ve used for TUF, and if I remember correctly, he was outcoached by Jens pretty handily.
by TDITZ on Jan 6, 2010 8:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
comparing Bj’s fights with Renzo (too long ago to even compare to the BJ of today) and against GSP putting BJ on his back (the statistically best at it in MMA…and the only guy to do so in something like several years)….to a fight with Gray “Lay N’ Pray” Maynard is laughable. Gray brings NOTHING to this fight that Diego didn’t, if anything, Gray has even weaker standup. BJ will demolish Gray even easier than BJ. Gray will give up his back at some point and he will get RNC even faster than Diego’s time with Saulo allowed him to stave off. Gray brings nothing to the table other than perhaps 10 lbs that Diego didn’t already bring…..comparing GSP to Gray is a waste of time. it’s how GSP mixes his STRIKING and TAKEDOWNS that got BJ on his back. Gray does not do this in nearly the same fashion nor with nearly the same finesse.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Jan 6, 2010 11:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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