Dana White Can't Be Serious About James Toney Fighting in the UFC
by Luke Thomas on Jan 5, 2010 1:10 PM EST
in MMA News
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No MMA promotion is free from criticism as it relates to the booking of freakshow fights. Not all leagues are equally guilty of the practice, but the slippery slope of defining "freakshow" arguably causes all leagues to be culpable on some level. However, of every promotion, the UFC is defensibly the least likely today to book a fight outside of the parameters of ethical, competitive sporting standards.
"Yes, I’m interested," said White.
In a closed door meeting between White and Toney with only four other people including myself and videographer Don Avila present on Saturday night, the two representatives of the largest fight worlds hashed out early details to see if a fight between a noted pro boxer and MMA fighter is sensible.
"I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t think it made sense," said White. "There are a lot of guys out there from boxing that call me but it never made sense. You’re a guy I respect."
...
It’s Toney’s willingness to fight anybody at any time that intrigues White, who has always abhorred most of professional boxing’s penchant for not making matches that make sense.
"You’re a mean, nasty, f-----g dude. I’ve been a James Toney fan for a long time. No BS," said White who cleared out his personnel from UFC’s make-shift office below the MGM Garden Arena to have the impromptu meeting late Saturday night. "Yes I’m interested. I’m interested in doing this and I’ve been talking to my partner Lorenzo (Fertitta) about it and we’re both interested in it. The hard part is I’m the one always talking shit about people who put together a freak show."
Indeed. Which makes the choice of Toney a strange one. While Toney did have a rebound year in 2003, he's hardly looked impressive since. His win over Ruiz was turned into a no contest for popping for steroids, his bout with Rahman was stopped early due to an accidental headbutt and he lost twice to Samuel Peter. In addition to the Ruiz bout, he's battled other steroid suspensions and an inability to convince either Klitschko brother to fight him. Here's how Scott Christ of Bad Left Hook sums up the 41-year old Toney as a potential UFC fighter:
Toney is of course rather old, and looked quite poor in his last major (loosely used term) fight against Fres Oquendo in December 2008. He did return leaner than he's been in years in September against Matthew Greer (12-6, 11 KO) and stopped Greer in two. I don't doubt Toney's ambition, but I wouldn't say I'd like his chances against anyone good.
Then there's the obvious issue of what sort of MMA training Toney has or will seek out. We also have to wonder if there's an athletic commission willing to allow a fighter of this age with this little amount of experience to be sanctioned in a fight with a presumably competent UFC-level MMA fighter.
With White, we don't know if this is all posturing. One assumes a James Toney vs. X UFC Fighter would be financially lucrative, but I don't get the sense White is willing to spend any of the positive equity he's put in the Bank of Ethical Matchmaking. I'd be absolutely shocked if White made a deal with Toney and as of today, he has absolutely no reason to do so.
Photo via The Sweet Science.
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Comments
"I'd be absolutely shocked if White made a deal with Toney"
You are naive Luke. Kimbo Slice is in The UFC. If Kimbo can fight, then James can too.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
by SherdogSux on Jan 5, 2010 11:54 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Same Route?
You mean going on TUF, losing his first and only match, then getting a hand picked opponent at the finale, barely beating him, then still getting a contract anyway?
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
by SherdogSux on Jan 5, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
or you mean, get a 3-1 record outside of the UFC before even getting to sniff TUF?
stop trolling.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
So if James fights 3 times outside the UFC he is legit? and how am I trolling? Everything I said was fact.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
This is very common on the internet blogs these days; when an argument is presented against yours and you don’t have much to back your own, you start calling people “trolls” for no reason.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 5, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Dude, read our conversations in the thread before saying "I don't have anything to back up my claim" and just randomly called him a troll.
okay? thanks.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
cause you keep on saying that signing Kimbo and Toney is the same. How is that a fact?
Kimbo was 3-1 before he was ever considered to be signed by the UFC.
If Toney fights 4 times outside the UFC, then went through TUF, wouldn’t that prove he wasn’t in it for a quick buck? Wouldn’t that prove that he wants to do what it takes to get in the UFC?
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
You act as if there is some ethical standard for fighting in MMA/UFC. There is NOT. And even worse you are trying to act as if Kimbo Slice is on the right side of that line.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
by SherdogSux on Jan 5, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
Its entertainment…can people get off their high horses.
Its also a sport, mostly a sport. Why don’t we put Obama on the Knicks?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Bad comparison
How about Master P playing Basketball. NBA teams have given him a tyrout several times. All I’m saying is James at least deserves a tryout.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
*tryout
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
that's what I'm saying..
Give him a way to prove himself, by actually showing he’s willing to train his ass off for it and compete MMA.
the NBA didn’t put Master P in the NBA just cause he couldn’t make money rapping right? his “tryout” wasn’t in a real NBA game right?
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
True.
MANY fighters fight for money. James is not the first or the last.
And, where should his tryout be? I think Dana said that if he was gonna sign James, that he would have to be serious. Maybe James could fight against Tank Abbot or Ken Shamrock?
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
A boxer is never gonna go down to the minor leagues where he makes no money when he can still make money in boxing. Its also possible that his boxing will be useful right off the bat in MMA so lets see it.
The question is whether the fight is interesting or maybe sporting not whether he is willing to put in effort. My argument is that there is some interest and maybe even sporting interest in a Kimbo fight so why does he need to train MMA.
Toney has been talking trash and calling out everyone in boxing, yet he isn't getting the fights he wants,
so he isn’t getting the paydays he wants…
that’s why he decided to try to talk trash and call everyone out in a different sport…
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
He's doing if for Money
Of course he thinks he can make more money in the UFC then he can in a boxing match…And I totally agree with him. I wouldn’t watch his boxing match if i was home at 10am on a sick day.
My point was that he isn’t going to take on a bunch of joke fights to prove his sincerity when he won’t get paid to do that.
There is no ethical line in MMA. Why does it matter if Toney is fighting for money?
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
all i'm saying is that
is it so hard for him to prove he’s willing to train and prove himself first before actually signing him?
At least start freaking training for Christ’s sakes.. If he doesn’t then, it’s just a canseco, one and done Freak show fight.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Its not Cancesco
Toney is a professional fighter…not a washed up Baseball player.
Him fighting some garbage can under MMA rules and signing up with AKA doesn’t change his credibility in a fight.
Now if you want to oppose this because he hasn’t demonstrated legitimate potential in MMA then OK, but don’t rely on effort or commitment.
I disagree
The guy bashed MMA. He’s not interested in it.
If he thinks he’s so good that he wont need to fight on the ground like a ‘lil fag’ then i say set him up in a match, let him get his ass kicked and learn a lesson.
this
i honestly think Toney vs kimbo is the only fight that makes sense for either guy…
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 4:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sure, he deserves a tryout, but not in the equivalent of the major leagues. Master P can hoop it up all he wants in training camp or int he Developmental League. He’s not going to be the Celts 12th man. If James Toney is serious about MMA, then he can work his way up.
Then what would be the number of fights he needs to be accepted as “legit”? Lesnar got in with just one. Kimbo had four, Phil Davis has Four, BJ Penn had zero.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
How long ago
was Penn? And what had BJ accomplished with BJJ? I think he came in with a lot of credibility.
Toneys record in boxing is superior to Penns BBJ record.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Comparing boxing records with BJJ is ludicrous. Boxing records are notoriously inflated. Toney’s an accomplished boxer, I’ll give him that, but to liken BJ’s BJJ and Toney’s boxing records is illogical.
BJ was still young and still a prospect. Toney is well beyond his prime and may not even pass a piss test. If he was 25-30 and he showed this much interest in MMA, good for him. He’d be worth Zuffa’s investment.
But he’s not. Let him prove himself even for 2 or 3 fights before coming up to the big leagues. That should provide enough of a glimpse as to whether or not he’s serious.
That’s your opinion that Toney is past his prime. Give him a chance to prove it. I just don’t agree that having Toney fight the Tank Abbotts and Ken Shamrocks of the world is any better than having him fight Kimbo immediately.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
comparing Toney and bj is baseless and you know it
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 4:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You're mostly right.
It only has a base from the standpoint of career MMA experinece when entering the UFC.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
i guess i see what you’re saying, but herschel walker would make more sense since bj wasn’t washed up and came in crushing fools on the feet and ground.
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 8:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My opinion?
Check out Brent’s post below. I think it’s fair to say I’m not the only one of that “opinion.”
There is no question
That he’s past his prime. It’s like saying "it’s your opinion that Shaq is past his prime. I watched him in his prime and it’s fact that he’s not in his prime.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
BJ was 41 when he set foot in the UFC?
Didn’t know that.
That has nothing to do with it.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Yes it does.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
celts need all the help they can
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 4:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kimbo's pre UFC fights were jokes
Ray Mercer,
Tank Abbott,
a dude with a UFO growing on his ear who Kimbo might have tapped to?
What did these fights prove? That Kimbo really needed money, that Kimbo was training MMA to fight a boxer?
70+ boxing matches is a lot better resume in my opinon.
by SES 84 on Jan 5, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It has absolutely nothing to do with being a legit fighter or not,
If Toney shows at least that he is interested in training MMA, (or better, if he fights MMA), It just proves he doesn’t want to make a quick buck, ala canseco..
It proves that it’s not just some Freak Show fight.
Is it that hard to do? train MMA, maybe go through TUF? or train MMA, fight a few times? than hey look UFC boxing isn’t paying me shit anymore, can I try your sport once without training for it?
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Why is that important?
I don’t understand why he needs a commitment to MMA to compete in it. To me its entertainment and he’s not going to piddle around in the minor leagues when he could piddle around in boxing matches.
There is obviously danger in a one and done victory for Tooney, but I think a 2 or 3 fight deal that precluded boxing if he won could achieve this which won’t endanger the ufc brand.
I think what Anton Is Saying
Is that he wants to make sure that Toney isn’t going to come in, gas in 30 seconds, and fall down tapping like Bo Cantrell did against Kimbo, then go to the bank and cash his 6 figure check. All while embarrassing the sport. If it happens this way then it opens the flood gates for every dingbat to come in and try this. I may be wrong about this but I think this is his point.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
I think that’s a mute argument, I looked up his record and he’s an active boxer. His last fight was on September of 2009, and he has had a lot of decisions. I don’t think he’d be gassing. From what I remember, Cantrell had been inactive for a while before fighting Kimbo.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Could be
But he sure doesn’t look in shape. And I just used the out of shape argument as an example. He could go in there and any number of things could happen to embarrass him, his opponent, the UFC, and the sport. But even this point is moot because he allowed Yvel to fight and he doesn’t have the best track record for not doing stupid things.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
agreed with the last sentence 100%
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
The thing is
I see both sides of this. I see Anton’s side and the opposite. If DW talks to Toney and his people and is convinced that this is a good thing then it’s good enough for me. If DW comes back and is convinced that it’s not a good thing and doesn’t let him in then it’s good enough for me as well.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
agreed
whatever DW does with this I’m be fine, deep down I want to see Toney vs Kimbo, but if it doesn’t happen it’s all good.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 5, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not even deep down for me
I NEED to see Toney vs Kimbo. It would be all kinds of awesome. Kimbo might be able to take him down and choke him out. Who knows?
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
seriously though
isn’t that an awesome fight? I mean, I’m psyched just thinking about it.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Me too
I hope it happens. I will jump for joy if it happens and maybe they will double ko each other. haha
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
haha, that would be epic!
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Rocky vs Apollo
Sweet!
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Awesome!
I was thinking about that too.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
moot
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
la policía gramática es un dolor
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 5, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
haha
that’s why I didn’t say anything. I knew what you were getting at.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
thanks
lol, I don’t get it, if you understand than you understand, all these corrections in a blog are a mute point.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
then
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 5, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
the Kimbo fight was Cantrell's 5th in 2007
he actually lost all 5, so he’s clearly a can, but he’d actually been pretty consistenly active since 2003
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
Ban.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Not for that alone, this guy is annoying me. I voted with my comments. He is bringing nothing to the table.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
OK
I’m not gonna go through and read his comments and he called Luke “Naive”, but I thought the general point (Toney is at least as legit as Kimbo) is a legit one…
Ban? Let me explain.
I called Luke naive for thinking Dana won’t make a deal w/ Toney. And, YES Toney has FAR more credentials than Kimbo did when he entered MMA. Toney:11x world champ in 6 dif. classes., Kimbo:Youtube Streetfighter.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
the difference is though, Dana didn't sign the Youtube Streetfighter.. EliteXC did..
Dana made a 3-1 fighter, training at ATT, go through TUF first.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
True.
But, if James says he’s gonna train, then why can’t he get an opportunity? His camp shouldn’t matter. And, Kimbo “went” through TUF by losing his only match? I’m sure Toney could manage that.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Are you serious?
But, if James says he’s gonna train, then why can’t he get an opportunity? His camp shouldn’t matter.
This is the point Anton has been making all along, that you were disagreeing with, and now it’s your point? Dude… Get a grip.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
whats the difference b/t lesnar and toney?
One fight?
by xbuckeyex05 on Jan 5, 2010 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Pretty Much. But, they are vastly different to Anton for some reason.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
They are vastly different. I am done explaining things to you, good luck.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I'm done trying to talk sense into these guys who don't even know the difference between Ishii, Lesnar, and Toney..
credibility went out the window on that comment.. This was just a waste of time.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Lesnar = 31 year old athletic freak in his physical prime
Ishii = 22 year old olympic judo gold medalist
Toney = 41 year old out of shape shot boxer
Is it so hard to understand?
I think its about their committment to MMA
The real issue is why Kimbo is legit in the UFC, but Toney wouldn’t be.
The argument that it comes down to is some notion about commitment which is ridiculous.
I’d rather we say he can’t beat anyone save a guy who shouldn’t be there and he is going to have to prove he is dangerous first.
I’d like to see the freakshow personally though.
what we really should be asking ourselves is who is there for Kimbo to fight? This would save another headache to find him an opponent (if they get Toney to fight Kimbo that is).
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Totally agree
How any fights can they milk out of Kimbo…I can’t even think of anyone currently in the UFC he could beat. So they may as well just promote Kimbo Toney. Give Toney a 3 fight deal where he can’t fight outside the UFC until he loses. If he beats Kimbo then they can put him against Kongo or Cain and he’ll lose. If Kimbo wins then Toney is a joke…I don’t see the downside in this.
I’d like to see it too, but business wise it doesn’t make sense.
Why take the risk of signing an old boxer with a previous positive steroid test just to have him bring a couple of fans (I can’t estimate how much of a draw Toney is)
Commitment really can’t be measured, but at least in his boxing career Toney has shown a lack of commitment in a couple of his fights, what guarantees that he won’t come in out of shape for an MMA matchup?
Well you could make a serious financial penalty if he doesn’t make weight.
That fight vs. Kimbo would draw…Period.
But it would draw because of Kimbo, not Toney. As shown, Kimbo draws ratings no matter who he is fighting, fighting Toney does give a nice promotional angle of MMA vs. Boxing but not much else.
but imagine how much they could build on to that! They wouldn’t have a problem promoting that fight.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
They can’t build much unless a legit young boxer gets into MMA. Like I said if Toney is signed, they are taking a short-term gamble (1 maybe 2 events) that may or may not bring in big ratings (since in my opinion Toney isn’t a great draw). Even though Kimbo may not be a good fighter, he is guaranteed to bring in ratings, no matter who he fights.
I agree about Kimbo, but the UFC can make this promising claiming that Kimbo will fight a HW Champion from boxing. They have all the material they need to promote this fight, and if Kimbo wins (which I think is most likely), that can only increase his stock in front of the casuals, which is a good thing. If Kimbo loses, tough luck, there isn’t that many people in the UFC that he can win against anyways.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
thats the thing, they can’t have Kimbo lose so quickly to a boxing champ, they gotta milk the cash cow until it doesn’t bring in ratings
Two fights
Kimbo is almost out of good fight options.
I can’t think of a more promotable next fight for Kimbo than Kimbo Toney and if Toney wins they get ANOTHER big matchup…i.e. Tooney whoever they want to destroy him…I can’t really see the upside in protecting Kimbo.
OH GOD PEOPLE, is this so hard to understand??
Lesnar and Toney?? Seriously??
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. I’m regretting even entering this thread.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Their MMA record wasn’t drastically different. Lesnar was a top tier Wrastler and Toney a top Boxer. Lesnar took some MMA fights before the UFC, while Toney has none. Lesnar willing to train all aspects of his game proved that he was serious. Toney straight up throwing all ground work out the window is ridiculous.
With that said, I still see MMA as sports ENTERTAINMENT, for the most part. Give me something I want to see and worth watching.
Lesnar tooksomeone MMA fights before the UFC, while Toney has none.
:p
Lesnar willing to train all aspects of his game proved that he was serious
that remains to be seen, so far he’s been using his wrasslin and size, but it works for him so more power to him. but hell, let’s get this fight on paper!
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
I’m afraid of commenting anything to you, I might get banned lol
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 5, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Lesnar D1 wrestler
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I feel like someone should get banned for this comment thread.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
is it me?
wait, don’t answer that!
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
No.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
Wikipedia disagrees
The first entry is a post on a blog. The rest is a thread. I still don’t know why this bothers you so much.
He Trains Jits with Rodrigo Comprido and (at least to me) demonstrated much better understanding of jiu jitsu fundamentals when he destroyed Mir.
GIVE UP?! GIVE UP?!
how? were there escapes? (I’m seriously asking, I only remember the end of the fight).
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
By Keeping
Mir’s hips flat against the ground and his body tight up against Mir’s to prevent Mir from using his Jiu Jitsu to escape. Mir himself has stated this. To do be able to do this you have to have an understanding of BJJ fundamentals. He didn’t use BJJ but he understood what Mir wanted to do and prevented him from doing it by countering with size and power. And to a lesser extent wrestling.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
fair enough, I still think it’s mostly his wrestling and size, but who am I to think I know more than Mir, therefore I denounce and reject my previous statement :p
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Well you are right about the size and wrestling
But you have to know what your opponent is going to do to be able to negate it. Therefore you have to know he has to know the basics of BJJ. I seriously doubt he will ever sub anybody.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
ugh
the third sentence got all messed up. Sorry.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
no
I understood that perfectly, and I agree. I stand corrected :p
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Thanks
On a side note I just bought my Strikeforce Miami tickets. Can’t wait to go!
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
strikeforce?
that’s a no no!
j/k
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
As DW himself would say
I’m a fight fan! I watch anything combat related. Boxing, K-1, Collegiate wrestling, two bums fighting in the street (not really) etc.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
lol
I hear you, I was just playing around :p
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Oh I know
It’s all gravy.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
WHAT?
No wonder you’re so against the term “troll”. You’re spiraling out of control.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Pretty sure that’s considered namecalling when it’s totally non-applicable. Keep it up, though..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
well, you see, trolls don’t present an argument to debate, nor do they try to refute an argument (which is what I did), you were basically just creating a negative statement because you didn’t like my response, which is what trolls do. I was actually calling you a troll joking around, but you really seem to be pissed there, aren’t ya? whatever, I’m already way far into this, I’m ok not lasting another day here (I wish it wasn’t so, but if it is, it is what it is).
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
You said it remained to be seen that Lesnar was willing to train all aspects of MMA, which is clearly and patently untrue. And if you don’t like it here, cut and run.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
what did I write that made you think I don’t like it here?
And it was my opinion that ‘it remained to be seen that Lesnar was willing to train all aspects of MMA’. Isn’t that why we have comments, to debate people’s opinion? If it’s untrue to you, it is still my opinion, how is that trolling?
if you keep reading, dedstrk316 made a great point and I have since changed my mind, but he didn’t troll in order to get through me… you see…
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Chill out.
Why is it trolling if you have differing opinions?
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Who is talking to you?
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
and that wouldn’t be trolling? dude, get off your high horse, seriously
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Hahaha
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
whats the difference b/t lesnar and toney?
One fight?
by xbuckeyex05 on Jan 5, 2010 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And 10 years. Oh and don’t forget the difference in term of potential.
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
And marketability, both short- and long-term.
Toney is a shot in the arm for marketing, but he’s a short-lived (at best) addition to the roster. Lesnar was brought in with the potential to be a dominant contender/champion for the better part of the next decade. Combine that with the argument/point that Lesnar’s public recognition had to be considerably greater than was Toney’s, due to all of the WWF time and his obvious physical attributes, and while it warrants comparison at street-distance, there’s really no comparison once you reach the window.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
agreed
I think Kimbo makes the most sense, they need a fighter for him, and this would sell I think.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
he didn't, I'm speculating
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
If the commission will let him fight so be it. He’s not Bob Sapp or Butterbean, or even Kimbo who was just a former street fighter. His skills are diminished but I’m going to have to say his hands are still going to be way above average against any UFC HW. If he is given an opponent who is inclined to strike with him, then Toney can at least be competitive. If he gets steamrolled then it’s his own fault. Not a freak show by any means. Toney will never go far in MMA but it wouldn’t hurt the sports image.
I don’t think it would either. I mean, this has a potential of being a freak show, but only if they give him Top 10 opponents. If it’s against someone like Kimbo, than it’s not a freak show.
for example; Fedor vs Zuluzinho = Freak Show, Zuluzinho vs Minowa man; not a freak show.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Umm..
Zuluzinho vs. Minowa man was still a freakshow, it just wasn’t a horrific mismatch as well. SHW vs. pro-wrestler MW = freakshow.
This match making make zero sense. Toney is one and done and will beat Kimbo like a redhead step child. Then he will go back to boxing as the MMA crusher when all he did was beat Kimbo.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
who cares?
there is a lot of people that want Kimbo to lose, wouldn’t it be better this way than to have him taking time from legit competition? Plus, if he beats Kimbo, wow, he beat Kimbo, you can’t have bragging rights to beat Kimbo… And if Kimbo wins, that also raises his stock. to me it’s a win win.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 5, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s not win win for the UFC to have Kimbo lose to someone who has 0% of being a legit UFC threat.
The people that want Kimbo to lose mean absolutely nothing to Zuffa’s bottom line, Zuffa’s hope for Kimbo is that they can use him to have a few big shows and eventually have some of his star power rub off on the people fighting on his cards and ultimately on the person that beats him. Having him lose to Mercer would be a waste.
I didn’t say it was a win win for Zuffa, it’s a win win for Kimbo haters
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
when I post comments most of the time, I’m not thinking about Zuffa’s side, they can do what’s best for them. I think this fight would be great, but if it doesn’t happen it doesn’t happen. There is nothing wrong with ‘hoping’ is there?
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
I agree with this plan for Kimbo
Though they could sell a Kimbo Toney fight for minimum of 600k PPVs
You are pretty much wrong about everything here. Beating Kimbo creates a star, not a star equal to Kimbo, but a semi-star. If Toney were that man, the UFC wins nothing and the star goes on there merry way. People who know nothing about MMA will now think that if Toney can beat such a big star and easily, then MMA is a joke. This is worse case and why its a terrible terrible match to make. Do you need more reasons?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
why do you think the UFC would sign Toney if Toney has no plans to stick around with the UFC? by now you should know the UFC does not sign someone and let them fight somewhere else… This will be the same for Toney… Jezz, some of you guys get all fired up for nothing…
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
If they are certain then match they give him will be with someone that will crush him. It is the pub that they want, they know Toney will never be a contender or anything remotely related to that.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
so who would you put against Toney? Seriously, JDS? Cain? Nog? Yvel? I mean, no one in HW interests me, but Kimbo vs Toney interests me a lot, as a fan.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
just doesn’t interest me as much as Kimbo though, that would be an epic fight I think between the two
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
I'm totally cool with Kimbo-Toney
but I understand why the UFC might want to keep Kimbo around for as long as possible so if they’d rather make another fight where Toney has a chance then so be it.
Nog or Cain would be perfect.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
waist of time for them
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Its a big money fight and a chance for them to beat a former big time boxer. Anderson might jump at the chance. Nog might too.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I doubt it, it would mean nothing to them. Big Nog and Cain are one fight away from title contention, fighting Toney (who is 0-0 in MMA) brings absolutely nothing for them IMO.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
In any case, it wouldn’t be there next fight. Rothwell, Nelson might be better. Come to think of it, Nelson would be best.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Make it a two fight deal
Toney can’t take any combat fight until he’s had 3 UFC fights or a loss….Obviously subsequent fights would pay a lot or be tied to PPV revenue, but this type of deal could work.
I think Kimbo could win that fight.
The Kimboplex proved to me that Kimbo at least has decent wrestling takedowns. I see him taking it to the ground.
Can he get inside though
Kimbo couldn’t really take the action to Houston in the first round…I feel like tooney might be peppering him during that whole circling deal.
If James can dedicate himself to learning MMA, and not just say shit like this,
“They talking about ground game? That don’t mean nothing to me dog. Number one, I ain’t going to allow none of them boys to lay on top of me like a lil’ fag, you know what I’m saying? I ain’t going to the ground; that ain’t happening.”
“I got one of the best mixed martial arts trainers in the world, which is my daddy. You know what I’m saying? He is one of the original death fighters. They fought to the death, like in them movies, but it’s a matter of time. I will be ready to go.”
then maybe… but otherwise, he’s just in for a quick buck… Kimbo wants to learn, and has actually put in the time…can’t say the same for Toney..
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
The holier than tho MMA crowd
Can we please get over ourselves and get a good laugh sometimes. Like people need to show some sort of dedication to our sport…Please.
He’s got some chance, he is a professional fighter and isn’t taking crazy risk so lets see how he does.
really? when he said He doesn't plan to train anything on the ground,
and his “death fighting” dad will train him on those aspects, that just proves he’s just out for a quick buck…
this makes me a part of “holier than thou MMA crowd”? Really? For me to want the UFC to want to sign a guy who actually wants to be a fighter? and not try to capitalize on his faded boxing popularity?
If he wants a shot at making the UFC, go fight in a minor league first like what Mayorga is doing.. or at least want to actually TRAIN MMA at least once in your life.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t see why we need people to put in time to provide us with entertainment. I think there needs to be some sort of effort bar before people are “Worthy” of competing in MMA. I actually think some matchups in the UFC are moderately intriguing… We are all going to watch them and I don’t think they are outrageously dangerous so seems fine to me.
he can compete in MMA, no one is stopping him..
I don’t judge who is worthy of competing MMA, they’re fine to try their hand at MMA like Mayorga and Canseco did (is doing)..
but if he isn’t showing that he’s the least bit interested in training mixed martial arts, why would the biggest MMA promotion on earth sign this washed up boxer? Kimbo had 4 MMA fights, joined ATT, and went through TUF to get in the UFC, why would this guy get a free pass?
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
1. Despite Kimbo’s commitment I’m really not sure Kimbo is that much better than Toney…Sure Kimbo went through some trials and tribulations to legitimize him to the hardcores (and so DW didn’t appear to be a hypocrite), but he’s not legit…How many matchups with UFC fighters would he be favored in?
2. The prospect of Toney fighting, or Roy Jones Jr. or whatever is interesting to me. I want to see it. They are only going to do it if they can get paid and the only way to get paid is to be in the UFC…It just isn’t realistic to expect these guys to spend 3 years working their way up.
Also if I see 1 or two of fights and its hopeless than I don’t need to see it again but once of twice I’m game and straight to the UFC is really the only way to make it happen.
No, no. This would be a one time deal with Toney. Just match him against Kimbo and let the crazy train leave the station.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
This has to be an early April Fool’s joke.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Jan 5, 2010 12:00 PM EST reply actions
I agree with SherdogSux… James Toney has beter hands than 99.9998% of the complete ufc roster. And he’s past his prime!! This is a real deal pickup. Not a freak show. I don’t agree with alot of stuff Dana White says or thinks but he’s rite on with this one. Anyone remember Ray Mercer vs Tim Silva??? Toney is 2x beter that Mercer.
Toney isn’t a power puncher. Who knows what could happen with the 4 oz gloves, but in the boxing world, during his prime, Toney wasn’t known as a power puncher. He has 72 wins and only 44 KOs. Not exactly an impressive KO ratio…
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Jan 5, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
in regards to Mercer
anyone has a puncher’s chance, anyone. I doubt that would end the same way if they were to fight again.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
James Toney has beter hands than 99.9998%
No. it’s 100% without a doubt at all.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
yeah, i thought the same thing
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Even faded in his career...
his hands are better than anyone in MMA. He is not THAT far removed from being one of the most elite boxers on the planet. His chin is a bit faded, and his speed is far from where it was. But his technique is not really a question
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
What weight would he compete at if he was going to be serious?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
if he made 205—he was 217 in his last fight—I would think he’d be in fair shape. put him in with the Janitor?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
good thing that doesn’t mean everyone he fights in mma will be outstruck…. speed and kicking not to mention the clinch are all things that will ruin his better hands advantage.
by cagefightonacid on Jan 5, 2010 8:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
After all the “smack” White has talked about boxers getting there butt kicked in MMA he can’t let Toney talk the same smack and ignore him. This is another instance where his ego will get him in trouble. Toney, at the same time, knows the pressure he can put on White and knows that by being the biggest name to date to jump from big time boxing to MMA, he can cash in. He is not trying to fain legit training like Kimbo, he is just being inflammatory and fanning the Boxing vs MMA myth.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Yes, by way of Bas. That myth has since been busted.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Dude, you can’t think that kimbo hasn’t trained mma. The difference between his interwebz fights and his most recent ufc fight is huge.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Jan 5, 2010 12:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He trains at ATT and is greatly improved, but remember the days when JT was on top of him and he has no clue what to do? Remember Mauro heralding his training with MMA Legend Bas Rutten?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
The takedown and GnP of Houston suggest that Kimbo has been training his ass off.
by Polyh3dron on Jan 5, 2010 12:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
exactly
and he is stepping up to Dana’s “challenge”, so if we need to blame someone, we need to blame DW for his big mouth
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
He is not stepping up the the challenge, he is seizing an opportunity to make money.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I'll Believe it When I See It.
I don’t know whether or not this is a serious deal, but I’ll believe it when I see it. On the one hand, there’s no question that he has been a competent boxer, but MMA has had its share of competent boxers lose fights, and I don’t think anybody could deny that a top MMA fighter in his prime would not bring a fair fight…
lol..
I don’t think he’ll sign him. He HAD to talk with the man. I mean he was right in his face threatening to show up to his house and shit. I don’t think I would’ve turned him away either.
by HappyLittleTreez on Jan 5, 2010 12:03 PM EST reply actions
I don't see why athletic comissions are really a problem
Then there’s the obvious issue of what sort of MMA training Toney has or will seek out. We also have to wonder if there’s an athletic commission willing to allow a fighter of this age with this little amount of experience to be sanctioned in a fight with a presumably competent UFC-level MMA fighter.
I mean the guy is a professional boxer…He’s not just gonna get blown out standing, where brain trauma is a serious issue. The danger is that he is taken down and gets submitted or GNPed…If its GNP the ref will stop it. If its a sub won’t he tap…Maybe I’m naive as to understanding when your arm is gonna get broken, but people seemed OK figuring it out in the early UFC.
no one would sanction mercer vs sylvia for boxing or mma, it’s silly to think that the AC’s wouldn’t be an issue.
Doesn’t Mercer have a hepatitis problem? I thought that was the issue. He’s Tooney could still get sanctioned for a boxing match whereas I think Mercer is past that point.
He’s fought in NJ since having to take time off because of Hep B and they are one of the states that specifically rejected the sylvia fight.
They avoided commissions by doing it in a not sanctioned state. They tried to use a Canadian boxing body to sanction, but that is against federal law. There are no fed laws against MMA so they switched it last minute.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I know that, but they only did that because commissions said no in the beginning, and it had nothing to do with hepatitis.
Yeah I just wanted to bring up the Fed law problem and Canada’s involvement in that crime against humanity. Kimbo fought Mercer in NJ I think?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
There was a big difference. Mainly that Sylvia was a former world champion in MMA, Mercer was very old and has a bad slur from his boxing career.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
More legit Kimbo
I don’t know how legit that is, but I don’t think this would be an outrageous fight to book since the guy is still a credible professional fighter…I’m much more concerned with bouts involving: Don Frye, Ken Shamrock, Tank Abbott, Fujita, Gary Goodridge, Jose Cancesco, Hershel Walker
by SES 84 on Jan 5, 2010 12:08 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
"Thunderlips is here. In the flesh, baby."
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
“The ultimate male vs. the ultimate meatball.”
by gremlin1496 on Jan 5, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dana's UFC-108 Insurance Policy
It was said that Dana likes Toney because he’s willing to fight anybody, at any time. It sounds like Dana’s cool with Toney coming in and collecting a paycheck because all of his ‘real’ fighters don’t care to be fighting injured. So let’s just say there’s another injury-bug like UFC faced at 108; now he has something to throw into a injury-plagued card.
Let him fite mma!!! He’d knock off heds!! I betcha!! (But I know his ground game is non-xistent but thats the chance he’s gota take).
Are you reducing your carbon footprint by using less letters in 2010?
Seriously though, Put him in with someone, let him get beat up, then he has the talking point about how boxers couldn’t compete in mma.
Of course, if he wins it mucks the theory up, but that is the chance you take.
by ultimatefightsource on Jan 5, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Don't listen to them, Dana! Make this happen!
Freak shows are fun. I love them. In the face.
Especially when one of the participants could be James Toney, who is all kinds of old-school awesome. Oh, the smack talk would be epic.
As long as the Freak Show Train doesn’t go down the “Celebrity Boxing” track, it won’t harm matchmaking image of the UFC. As I said before, MMA is still more sports entertainment than pure sport. Rankings already aren’t the sole determining factor in which fights get made. (which they should be if MMA is to be considered a pure sport through and through). So, why not have a little fun?
Put Toney in there w/ Kimbo and let the hype begin!
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 12:14 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
A two fight deal can solve this problem
I wouldn’t suggest ruining Kimbo, but so then in the next fight you go WAY up in competition…Say Cain Velazquez…It would do huge numbers and your Toney problem is solved.
It can only be Kimbo. He is the only HW in the UFC with sufficient freak show qualities
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yvel has some, also zombie Coleman.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Kongo
He’s fine too…If your not going anywhere then there is no problem using you for a freakshow fight.
Kongo has come a long way and I still think he will be in contention some day. He always seems to be on the cusp.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Contention
I mean he’ll rock Toney don’t get me wrong, but I just don’t see how his skill set gets him into contention…
His take down defense and work off his back is just not improving fast enough to deal with the strong wrestlers.
His striking is good, but not fabulous as Mir showed.
I don’t see how he ever pulls himself into the the real contenders. ..So you wouldn’t be harming him any by giving him a freakshow fight.
He rocked Cain a few times to negate some of that wrestling edge, just not enough. Kongo is still improving every time he steps in the cage.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Relative improvement
Congo was improving (not so sure against Mir), but guys like Carwin, Cain are going to improve their striking faster than Kongo improves…I Just don’t see how he is getting in contention
Say what you want about the future prospects of Kongo and Yvel in the UFC, but both are serious kickboxers who can end anyone’s night in an instant.
At the end of the day, Kimbo, despite his improvements, is still Kimbo.
Make it happen! Kimbo vs Toney this summer!
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
You must really hate Toney, lol!
by ultimatefightsource on Jan 5, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
poor Toney, but I don’t think he could make 185, so he’s safe unless Andy goes up to 205 again
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
lol
I don’t think he can make 185 today :p
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Oh shit. I would pay through the nose to watch silva outstrike Toney.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Jan 5, 2010 12:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
correction
anderson Silva wants tofight a boxerbe on a huge ppv card and get a share of the buys right? lol
Leg Kicks
if he ends up in the Octagon, he will be quickly welcomed with numerous leg kicks and will not know how to defend them. After 5-10 he won’t be able to stand anymore and will either just tap or be submitted. My over/under for first fight is 3 minutes.
"You don't come to have your fingernails or your toenails painted. Goddamn, you come to fight, not to be a fairy."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Jan 5, 2010 12:19 PM EST reply actions
Meh
I think all Toney is doing is keeping his name out there in the public and he’ll be back in a boxing ring later on this year.
This fight could be done.
Put Toney in a TUF episode and have him matched against a HW as a special exhibition match. It’s not going to count on anyone’s records but it could draw viewers and if Toney wins, then he gets onto a real UFC card.
Tell me you wouldn't watch a Toney fight
If Toney fights someone in the UFC, is anyone not gonna at least watch the youtube video?
If Toney had just gone up to Dana and said “I wanna be a fucking fighter” he’d already have a signed contract and an opponent booked.
by ufc4 on Jan 5, 2010 12:50 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
I laughed.
Then I rec’d.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Lolled
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Jan 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No Way
He get’s a contract.
"of a world thats doing its best, night and day,
to make me everybody else"
Here is a photo I took of Toney at HP Pavilion in 2007. Granted, I think he could teach a UFC fighter or two about self-promotion, but Toney was 30-40 pounds overweight for this fight and he looked horrible. Here is what I wrote at the time:
Toney’s unorthodox defensive style suffered through a lack of speed, a chorus of boos, and a drought of punches, but future ambitions of a title shot seemed to get farther away with his majority decision win (98-92, 97-93, 94-96).
It was a role reversal in the main event. Batchelder forced Toney to come to him, and scored what appeared to be a larger number of clean punches in the process. Toney was able to cut off the ring and occasionally pin Batchelder along the ropes, but he never let loose with his hands to show even a glimpse of his former knockout power. Instead, the 8th ranked heavyweight by the WBC, and 13th ranked heavyweight by fightnews.com earned a win more on name and reputation than his performance in the ring.
It is funny how quickly the role reversal takes place for Dana White after he signed Kimbo. Signing James Toney would be the UFC’s answer to Strikeforce signing Herschel Walker. I’ve seen Walker at AKA, he is light years ahead of where Toney was at 3 years ago.
Herschel Walker is a better striker than IBO HW chanp Jmaes Toney? WOW.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Unfortunately at this point in his career, yes. I forgot to add that both Toney and Batchelder tested positive for multiple steriods after that fight in a kind of comedy of errors. According to ESPN:
Toney tested positive for boldenone and stanazolol, and Batchelder tested positive for stanazolol and oxandolone, Garcia said. If they don’t appeal, the boxers would be suspended one year from the date of their fight.
This was 2 years after he was stripped of the WBC heavyweight title after defeating John Ruiz due to testing positive for nandrolone.
Problem is, Walker hasn’t had a LIVE fight, yet. It’s easy to look good in the gym. Were as we know Toney and the Green Power Ranger(two people coming under fire) can fight in a real fight.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
How and when did the green ranger come under fire?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I only know of Maggie 'weeping for MMA' when he announced he wanted to compete in MMA,
the others seems to be okay with him…
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 5, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Agreed, but with Toney’s problems even throwing combinations (tried to find video of that fight but the link was down), you look at Walker mixing up high and low kicks and then practicing a sprawl and a jab to back out in quick succession, and it is easy to come to that assessment. It could be completely wrong, but it is easy to make. It would take long odds for him to even be signed in my opinion.
Its not so much about combinations as its about understanding ranging distance…Granted Tooney isn’t used to kicks, but he at least has a good understanding of some of the intuitive concepts even if he doesn’t have the same speed flash and power.
Well I say give him a contract
6k maybe 8k per fight and give him Randy so he doesn’t have an excuse of being beaten by a younger guy
Exactly...
who gives a shit if he’s ‘good’ for the sport or not? The good thing about MMA is once your in the cage we get to really see if your for real or not. A former Heavyweight boxing champ getting destroyed by a UFC fighter only adds to the credibility of the sport. Get off your damn high horse…not everyone is Fedor or Anderson Silva.
by HappyLittleTreez on Jan 5, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I am really proud of myself
I have refrained from making one comment concerning Toney and I am probably a much bigger boxing fan than most the guys one here.
I'm amazed you were able to stay out of it
but not for much longer…. where do you stand in all of this? lol
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
I don't even want to get started
otherwise I’ll be on here all day.
And what are you doing commenting here? Toney’s not Brazilian.
haha
yeah, I’ve been here all day, I should take your advice. But Toney doesn’t have to be Brazilian for me to start trouble, it’s in my nature if you know what I mean hehe
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
So what do the boxing fans think of this?
by HappyLittleTreez on Jan 5, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you, sir.
The first comment says it all.
by HappyLittleTreez on Jan 5, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
Look Toney is as legit of a fighter as they come (70+wins and how many belts?).Sure he’s past his prime but so is Lidell, Cro cop, Colmen, Ortiz or any other number of fighters in the UFC. I say if he wants a crack at a top ten HW then Dana should give him just that. He stands no chance with a Lesner,Mir,Carwinor any other HW with good wrestling,BJJ, or Kick boxing for that matter. Once he felt a few leg kicks or got put on his back the fight would be over pretty quick. IMO it’s more of a “Freak Show” fight putting him in with a Kimbo or a Huston Alexander that has no ground game and will stand and bang. Doing that may put more people in the sets or sell more ppv’s but a win by Toney would hurt the UFC badly. Just think of all the talk a boxer beating a MMA fighter at his own game within the biggest promotion in the world would garner.
Why can't
The UFC make a “freakshow” division? You could use all kinds of guys. Old washed up mma fighters, boxers, big baby types of fighters. Give us a freakshow a card. And they don’t even have to make it main card status. Just make it available on UFC.com afterward for free for a period of time.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
That’s a bit much.
One FS fight every now and then isn’t a bad thing, though.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 5, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
No way
I love freakshow fights. As long as it doesn’t interfere with the serious fighters. Which I guess in my example that would happen because they’d be taking a spot from real fighters so you are correct. It is a bit much.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Im sure we can find some interesting fights for him
Why not put him in with some middle level strikers?. Paul Buentello would be a good start.
Wow
This thread is bombed out. I’ve never seen so much trolling on a BE thread..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Please explain what a troll (or trolling) is to me. I thought I knew but now I am not sure.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response1 or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.2
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Jan 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he doesn’t know, he thinks if someone disagrees with him, than that person is trolling… KaRaZy talk…
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Internet is srs business.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
to a few it really seems to be, I just don’t get how people get so fired up for nothing!
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
Yeah, I'm fired up! Rawr!
You’re a token board-jockey— accusing people of being angry when they’re merely intimating their distaste with something. I’m positively furious!
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
I’m not even arguing with anyone in this thread, genius.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Yeah, you just come in, call people trolls, then proceed to troll yourself by name-calling and being rude.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Yawn
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Dana needs to decide...
Does he want the UFC to be considered a legitamite sport or does he want his own version of the WWE. I am not sure he can have both.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
This entire threads needs to be closed, deleted, burned and email to an unnamed site.
by Riney on Jan 5, 2010 4:15 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
lol
I’m part to blame, but I fucking agree!
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
I don’t think so. I think this thread should be preserved, so everyone can see how ridiculous some of these comments are.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Jan 5, 2010 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. Rec'd.
I think this is a perfect example of people letting emotions cloud their judgement.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Yes
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
But I only said it once.
And I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing the error in my ways.
Since I did take the time to write it over at SBNation.com:
Since 2006 Toney has:
- Fought to an awful draw with the awful Hasim Rahman in one of the worst fights I’ve ever seen.
- Been outpointed by Sam Peter twice despite Peter not exactly being the kind of boxer that would have ever outpointed Toney in the past.
- Won a split decision over Danny Batchelder who was riding high on a 1-3 streak coming into the fight and has lost 2 more fights since the loss. Many boxing reporters had him losing the fight. After the fight Toney tested positive for steroids for the second time (the first was in 2005 against John Ruiz).
- Had a no contest due to cutting Hasim Rahman with a headbutt early in the fight.
- Won a split decision over Fres Oquendo that many (including SB Nation’s Bad Left Hook) had Toney losing by a wide margin.
- Was hurt by 12-5 Matthew Greer in his last fight before stopping him.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2010 4:28 PM EST reply actions
/\ this thread /\
exhibit 1 in the case that MMA fans are douchebags
(myself included)
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I don't think we're douchbags....
People just get a little emotional some times.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
we’re totally douchebags. once you embrace it, the world gets a little brighter.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
am I a douchebag?
wait, don’t answer that!
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
If I didn’t work in a place that would find it completely acceptable, I would totally pop my collar right now, in douchey solidarity.
It's not a thread
It’s a post.
This isn’t a messageboard. It’s a blog.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 5, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Interesting that this thread gets more comments than all the other really good stories over the last day or so
And this is the trend. Hershel Walker, Jose Canseco, the Power Ranger guy. All did the same kind of numbers of discussion.
It's not a thread
It’s a post.
This isn’t a messageboard. It’s a blog.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
People need to stop with the freakshow talk if they don’t even know what a freakshow fight is. Fedor vs. Zulu was a freakshow fight putting 2 guys with equal skill level in a fight is not a freakshow.
I don’t care one way or another if Toney fights in the UFC but if he is serious and wants to take the shot and Dana decides to give it to him fine. Unless they put him against Brock or Nog, i’m fine with him facing a guy like Kimbo or Marcus Jones to see what he’s got so should everybody else.
Look at the amount of comments Toney Posts are getting… He doesnt even need to bring in boxing fans to do big numbers within the MMA space alone.
He’s not a freak show. Brock Lesnar vs Kimbo would be a freak show. As long as he’s in a competitive fight why should he be denied an opportunity just because he already has a name?
Brock has athletic accomplishments and so does Toney. It’s not exactly the same but I say let him prove himself. Dana will watch him spar with a couple wrestlers, and kick boxers and see what happens.
I’m honestly fine with any boxer trying his hand at MMA. What I’m not fine with is Dana selling it as that Toney isn’t old and washed up. He clearly is.
I don’t want to deal with the hypocritical bullshit where no one deserves a chance outside of the UFC and Dana will run anyone like Toney down…but if Toney is interested then it’s a different story.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
washed up? he’d still beat 90% of the boxers out there.
Do you think Lesnar would still win the NCAA?
Mayorga is fighting in shine fights… is anyone calling that a freakshow? no, because honestly its not.
Calling Herschal Walker a freak show is not the same as Toney. Toney and Mayorga have combat experience and Toney is one of the best in the world at one aspect of the art used in MMA… whether he can handle the other parts remains to be seen.
Dana will see if he’s coming in for a paycheck or if he seriously wants to compete. He’ll watch him spar and see how he deals with leg kicks and when he’s on his back.
Drop the “ground game is for fags” talk and the deathfighting stuff, that would be a start. Also, he is way out of shape and not in a Roy Nelson way, in a “you are banned from the buffet” way. Judging from the picture and the weight at the time of his last fight (217), I am thinking 185. I feel like with all that weight on his hips, you can bear crawl after him to avoid taking damage standing.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Toney is one of the best in the world at one aspect of the art used in MMA
exactly. would there be the same uproar if a 40 year accomplished BJJ fighter wanted to try mma? or a 40 year old muay thai fighter?
if he wants a crack put him in there and let him back up his words. if he gets destroyed he wasn’t cut out for mma. if he wins then he proves it by his actions. it’ll also answer a lot of what if’s ppl have been debating about boxers crossing over
if he loses, he loses… which could leave to a couple scenarios. 1) dana wont sign another boxer claiming he can hang in the UFC, or 2) it’ll prove that boxers who want to enter mma need to train other disciplines and may result in future, more committed crossovers from boxing
Double exactly…
The fact that Toney would bring in ratings seperates him and makes him a “freakshow”? people cant seem to isolate what actually determines a freakshow.
Open memo to all: Ratings are not the sole factor for determining a “freakshow”.
That he is an out of shape, fat, over-the-hill, boxer with no real means of defending himself other than in one, albeit important, area makes it a freak show.
And if his opponent were to be Kimbo Slice, well, then, if you can’t acknowledge the obvious hilarity involved, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s a cartoon fight, from an MMA perspective, if there ever was one.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 6, 2010 6:09 AM EST up reply actions
A show consists of a Main Event, a Co main event and then the aired undercard and unaired prelim… Each one carries a different weight in making up a “show”.
The tuf finale wasnt a “freak show”. If you have a show main evented by Toney versus Kimbo then you have an argument.
No one called the TUF main event a freak show. Roy Nelson is fat, but he’s still in shape. He doesn’t gas in the manner that his physique would suggest. And that’s to say nothing of his overall MMA game, which is pretty darn good. Geez, you really can’t discuss anything without radically moving the goalposts, can you?
Also, where the event is slotted on the card matters not. Totally unrelated to anything being discussed here.
Kimbo Slice, for however much he may have improved, is still a street brawling internet sensation. James Toney, for all his bluster about being able to deal with different aspects of MMA, is still an old, fat, crazy, world class boxer who is just looking for a decent payday. And that is why I would very much like to watch this fight. It’s a freak show.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 6, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
A guy who was 12-5 buzzed him badly in his last fight.
Fres Oquendo isn’t a guy who anyone is confusing for a top talent and I scored their fight 116-112 for Oquendo. Bad Left Hook scored it 117-111. Toney was gifted a split decision.
It took a split decision to beat Danny Batchelder, who has lost 4 in a row and 6 of his last 7. Toney then tested positive for steroids for the second time in his career.
Come on now. There is a difference between Lesnar not winning the NCAA anymore and James Toney clearly being well past the prime of his career. Toney is old, and his skills are dramatically faded.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 6, 2010 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dana is a promoter.
What I’m not fine with is Dana selling it as that Toney isn’t old and washed up. He clearly is.
How can he do anything other than this…
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jan 5, 2010 6:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Promoting isn't a license to lie
I think the idea that it’s okay for him to sell us a bill of goods should fade away. If Bob Arum tries to sell us Pacquiao vs. Malignanni as a fight of epic proportions, we’re all gonna call his bullshit on it. Don King used to sell shit like the Dalai Lama just crapped it. I’m not necessarily referring to this situation in particular, but in general just saying “He’s a promoter, it’s what he does” shouldn’t suffice to answer why a person would hype up something that doesn’t deserve hype.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
he can...
choose not to promote an old washed up boxer OR just avoid talking about his age at all.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2010 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
I look at this as the bottom line: James Toney, even at this age, could go 12 rounds with just about any heavyweight on the planet today (and beat the vast majority of them). In that regard he’s a legit entry into MMA, although not one that should electrify people (admittedly). Also, he has accomplished more in boxing than most wrestlers in MMA have in their original sport.
solid assertions
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Agreed.
The only thing I would point out is you can’t really compare wrestling pedigree with boxing pedigree. The potential outlets for wrestlers to ply their craft are simply not there after college. A small number compete in the Olympic games every four years, but that’s really infinitesimal when you compare that number to the number of truly elite class wrestlers out there in their athletic primes.
But other than that one observation, I think SlickRick makes some good points.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
On Freakshows
Because a guy enters into MMA with a big name does not make it unethical. What’s unethical is putting in Kazuyuki Fujita with Alistair Overeem. If they put in James Toney with a crappy heavyweight, like Matt Mitrione or Kimbo Slice, then I don’t think its unethical and wouldn’t have any problem watching it. Whether or not Kimbo and TOney is a “freakshow” is another matter but I don’t necessarily have any opposition to it. NOrmally fighters of their caliber are relegated to smaller promotions, but if the money’s good enough the UFC’ll jump on it.
If they put him in with Cain Velazquez or Frank Mir, then yearh, that to me is unethical, but most athletic commissions wouldn’t allow it. ANyway, you want to stop fights like this? Vote with your eyeballs. If the UFC doesn’t do it (and they’re least likely to because they have such a good roster they don’t have to) and the money’s there, other orgs will. If you don’t approve of the fight, don’t watch it, but it will happen. For my part, my resolution is never to watch a fighter like Fujita get massacred again.
I’d be interested to see how Anthony Mundine would go in MMA, especially with the UFC branching out into Australia. Before he was a boxer he played rugby at a high level, so I would have thought the tackling element might translate well over to wrestling. He’s also a big personality and a natural heel, so I think he’d quickly make a name for himself if he was somewhat successful.
I don't understand....
Why not just build a HW season of TUF around James Toney?
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Jan 6, 2010 12:47 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Because, much like Kimbo, he would lose his first fight and then just talk shit for the rest of the season.
James Toney in the UFC should be a one shot deal. Nothing more. It’ll be a fun time for all involved, fans included.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 6, 2010 6:13 AM EST up reply actions
Read mine.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 6, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
after 300+ comments and thanks to Toney
i learned that its not a thread. its a post.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
he booked kimbo and gave him a by onto the TUF finale….why not throw in Toney? Kimbo’s a joke in MMA. TOney would be too. Toney at least has cred in something other than knocking out cans bareknuckle in boat dockyards or backywards with satellite dishes.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Jan 6, 2010 11:13 AM EST reply actions
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