Dana White Does Not Excoriate Shinya Aoki for Arm-Break Antics
by Luke Thomas on Jan 4, 2010 1:01 PM EST
in MMA News
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The UFC President makes a salient point:
When it came to the subject of Shinya Aoki’s bad-boy turn, however, White was reluctant to issue condemnation.
Aoki drew tremendous criticism at Dynamite!! 2009 when he broke Sengoku lightweight champion Mizuto Hirota’s arm and flipped him off as he writhed in pain.
White said the behavior was part of the fight business.
"This isn’t (expletive) baseball or one of these other sports," White said at a gathering of reporters after Saturday’s UFC 108. "Sometimes these guys hate each other. When you break a guy’s arm that you hate, flip him off, and let him know you’re glad you broke his arm, I guess, it happens sometimes.
"It’s not the greatest sportsmanship, but, ‘oh, that guy is terrible, he’s a horrible man and he shouldn’t fight anymore,’ this is the fight business, man. Crazy stuff happens in the fight business sometimes."
White's objection to Lesnar's UFC 100 post-fight freakout dealt generally with the champion's perfunctory attack on a blue chip sponsor of the organization. I suspect White could not care less that Lesnar scolded Mir as the Las Vegas native was helped to his feet after being TKO'd.
Post-fight professionalism will always be hard to come by. I find Aoki's behavior to be utterly reprehensible, but the solution is not so obvious. Emotions run high in combat sports. Trying to take the punitive route by imposing fines on professional athletes already making (generally speaking) far less than their professional athlete peers seems too much. Telling a fighter they have to sit out of competition will only make rival promotions who won't demand professionalism appear even more appealing.
And how does one define what is and isn't acceptable? BJ Penn doesn't gloat about badly hurting his opponents in post-fight celebration, but he will often lick their blood. I'm not certain that isn't equally unsavory and unprofessional.
Overtime, one hopes the UFC and other fight organizations will be able to foster a culture of professionalism and respect. For now, however, fan outrage and media firestorms are the only pushback these fighters are likely to receive.
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This is a case where no one is wrong. Yes, Aoki is guilty of unsportsmanlike actions, no there is very little you can do about it if anything. If someone acts up on a baseball field, they get plunked. I have thrown at friends in friendly games for excessive shit talking. There were brawls during kickball for unsportsmanlike behavior. What are you going to do it fighting? You can’t escalate it any further and teach anyone to be a better sport.
Well, I did think of one case where someone may have learned something
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
If only
they had some way to settle their differences…
That aside, I’m not quite as mad at Aoki as others, but I used to watch pro wrestling years ago, so I’m perhaps a bit jaded to some of it. Especially in Japan, where the line between Proressu and MMA is a lot blurrier than it is here in the states.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 4, 2010 12:21 PM EST reply actions
Only difference is this ain’t pro wrestling , his arm was broken for real and while the ref tried to …I donno – pick his arm up or something Aoki decided it was a good time to flip the dude .
I donno man , I think this isn’t one of these grey areas , this was Aoki being an asshole , can’t we call it as we see it ?
oh sure
he was certainly being an asshole. it just doesn’t bother me much.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 4, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
I think that’s the thing. Was it an asshole move? Yes. Is it the end of the world? no. Sports have examples of people being assholes all the time. A few isolated incidents (or even a few assholes who always have incidents) are not going to cause major damage.
If people are upset, they have that right, but to expect everyone to be outraged is kind of silly.
I feel like this issue is always going to be a tough one. The mindset after winning a huge fight could probably be likened to temporary insanity. All the time spent training for their payday which may or may not come down to a total of 15 (25 if title fight) minutes, along with the adrenaline from actually being in a fight…that’s an interesting mix. I know if my yearly income came down to 3 separate 15 minute increments, I’d be liable to do some off the wall stuff when I clocked out too.
I agree, you can’t blame a person for freaking out after such an emotional experience. Plus I love bj’s ‘antics’, it makes him scarier and I think will be a part of his legacy.
by cagefightonacid on Jan 4, 2010 4:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The word of the day is:
Excoriate:
1. to denounce or berate severely; flay verbally: He was excoriated for his mistakes.
2. to strip off or remove the skin from: Her palms were excoriated by the hard labor of shoveling.
by HighNoon on Jan 4, 2010 12:24 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
seriously
its great to have a large vocabulary but if no one else knows what the word means, whats the point? i am so PISSED OFF RIGHT NOW
RARRRRR
he was injured. injured bad.
Anyone who thinks excoriate is an SAT word did not do well on the SATs.
I don’t write for the lowest common denominator. Never have and never will.
Plenty of people know what excoriate means. They’re called “readers”.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 4, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It’s still a fifty-cent word used in a ten-cent sentence.
I got a 1490 on my SATs and couldn’t tell you what that word meant or why you would need to use it.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Jan 4, 2010 1:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But what did you get on the Verbal section?
Bolts from the Blue // "I have got to be the most boring GM in the league." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Jan 5, 2010 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
I did pretty well on the SATs, but I wouldn’t call myself a reader. I have poor grammar and worse spelling so I am not really in a position to criticize anyone’s writing. That having been said, I think you force it sometimes. Lowest common denominator is not a swear word and the other extreme would be just as bad. Sometime you approach that extreme.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
by szucconi on Jan 4, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Not that any of this has anything to do w/ Aoki or the discussion. ;)
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Sure doesn’t, but really guys, come on, you’re on a website, why not…you know….use a dictionary…I hear they have them on the interweb! This way, when you see a word you don’t recognize…you can….LEARN ITS MEANING! Nice. Thank you sir, excoriate is a fine word.
by bigstupidsmile on Jan 4, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t mind 90% of the time. Communication is the key and everyone at BE does that pretty well. But sometimes its like a rarely used word is used in place of a more common synonym. If I didn’t know better (and I do know better), I would say someone is leaning hard on a glossary. I think it is just Luke’s day job bleeding over. I have no idea what he does, but it happens to me, people outside of work look at me funny when I say instantiation. My girlfriend is the other end of the scale, she has a masters degree, but had taught kindergarten for so long that all SAT words have dropped from her vocab.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
No, he really doesn’t. You don’t even KNOW what the other extreme is, if you think anything on this website approaches it.
And no, he isn’t leaning on a glossary. He is a writer and has a better vocabulary than the average joe. I would almost guarantee you that the author had no idea that using excoriate would be an issue because it came naturally to him.
And what you are doing here is kind of like booing and making humping jokes every time a fight goes to the ground. People who do that no doubt think they have a legitimate complaint when a fight goes to the ground, but they are really demonstrating an obnoxious combination of ignorance and rudeness. Which is the nice way of saying that just because you could barely finish the first Harry Potter book is no reason to try to inflict your philistinism on the rest of society.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
by toxic on Jan 4, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Faulkner: “[Hemingway] has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary.”
Hemingway: "Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use."
So tell me again: Why the puzzlement of your readers is something that should be ignored?
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Jan 4, 2010 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
The occasional word that not every just knows isn’t bad. If he’d written it like Faulkner, we’d have a problem. But the fact that your comparing using a semi-rare word like excoriate to Faulkner is a bit crazy. Absalom, Absalom this ain’t. Having to learn a new word every now and then is not a bad thing.
The fact that a few guys who don’t speak English as their first language, or guys who have “zero patients for reading books” have to use a dictionary from time to time is not a big negative. If this website was written with a 4th grade vocabulary, I think you’d see a lot more people leave than it would gain.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
Also, expecting someone to come down to your level rather than put some minimal amount of effort into improving yourself is extremely lazy in any context, but especially this one. If you can’t figure out a word by context alone, you probably have a search bar in the corner of your browser Google it. Being too lazy to google when your already on the internet is just beyond anything. Which is why I’m being a huge dick about it. It’s lazy, ignorant, and rude to complain instead of just figuring it out and improving yourself a little bit.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
by toxic on Jan 4, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Was this really worth all that typing?
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
Yep.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
OK
As long as you’re happy.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
I didn’t say I needed a dictionary. And balancing what you write for a wide audience is a skill. Dumbing down would be far worse. I am not saying “Stop”, I am saying watch it and don’t get carried away. If it affects the meaning then it is the writers problem, but at this point Luke has no problem.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
this
is one of the coolest quotes ive ever read. im reminded of someone like cormac mccarthy, so simply.
anyways, luke, if you get to this, i do appreciate your thinly veiled insult towards my intelligence as a response to a good natured ribbing. wouldn’t expect that from a mod.
he was injured. injured bad.
At the risk of getting myself banned
It’s not the first time I’ve seen Luke do such a thing (Irritable response to a poster).
I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he had a moment of frustration as we all do at work. No biggie.
No way I finished a book. I have zero patients for reading books and getting through them cover to cover. I read a few sections and skim through the rest. I also don’t read fiction, ever. Just like fighting is meant to be entertainment, writing is meant to be communication. If fights are never entertaining then the sport dies. If someone writes over the heads of the audience then it won’t get read. Luke doesn’t cross the line, but approaches it at times. I didn’t bring it up, I am just commenting on it. Audience is not something that should be ignored. knowing who your piece is intended for might guide your writing.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Why so defensive?
Personally I enjoy almost all aspects of your writing, that it teaches me vocabulary is one of them. But the frequency with which I need to use a dictionary to parse your texts is quite striking. It is clearly higher than for any writer on Language log (my second most visited blog, the writers there tend to be American linguist professors) and about the same as for the book on Turkish language history I just read. (And I am an engineer, not a linguist, so I don’t even know their vocabulary.)
English is not my first language, I didn’t knew what ‘excoriate’ meant but if f you read the whole post it becomes pretty clear from the context very soon. So where’s the problem?
by monkeyhead on Jan 4, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The problem is it started as a joke and it ended…like usual.
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
by spectaa on Jan 4, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yep.
Welcome to the internet, home of E-Drama.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart."
Rickson Gracie
This was written as a comment to me, perhaps it wasn’t intended to be. But just to be clear: I see no problems at all with it.
I just said it was striking. It is. Luke is also the head honcho of my favourite blog, if I minded I could read something else. On the contrary: I prefer his writings to that of most other in the biz.
i like the big words. keep it up. it’s better than going to fightlinker and reading “fuck” in every sentence
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Jan 4, 2010 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I knew this was luke thomas’ post based on reading that word in the headline
by kanodogg on Jan 4, 2010 2:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
my cent and a half
This isn’t the first time Aoki has broken someone’s arm, if you aren’t going to tap he is taking it “home” with him…. Flipping the guy off at the end of the fight well I’m not really offended by that, he didn’t like him and well if he would have tap’d I doubt Aoki would have flipped him off honestly.. imo it is kinda like “F you, I didn’t have to break your arm” type thing…. The running around after the fight well I just don’t get, but hey Daley with the pretend Shotgun, Grove and Tito acting like they just buried someone, Lesnar flipping the fans off @ UFC 100, people do dumb shhhh after a fight I guess……
"Its a cliche that boxing is the sweet science, man we're astro physics..." ~ Mayhem Miller speaking about MMA
Maybe White is less reluctant to criticize Aoki because he’s working on getting him into the cage? Doesn’t sound like him, cause he was willing to bash Fedor a bunch, but maybe he’s taking a different tactic?
I love me some Sexyama!
That was utter bullshit from Babalu. Babalu held on to a choke when the guy tapped and when the ref tried to stop the fight.
With Aoki the guy was too tough/didn’t have the sense to tap.
Keep firing Assholes!
It’s as if you fell down a flight of stairs, then logged onto the internet.
""Sometimes these guys hate each other. When you break a guy’s arm that you hate, flip him off, and let him know you’re glad you broke his arm, I guess, it happens sometimes."
by slantedwindows on Jan 4, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Babalu didn’t flip off the guy afterwards. He held a submission extra long. That’s worse than hurting someone’s feelings, it’s a violation of trust in MMA.
If you are in a professional MMA/grappling match you put trust in your opponent that they will release a submission hold if you tap. Babalu violated that trust.
Keep firing Assholes!
It’s as if you fell down a flight of stairs, then logged onto the internet.
by Ubernoober on Jan 4, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
it's worse than a trust violation
It’s a consent violation. A tap (or verbal submission) is a gesture that states you no longer consent to engage in this injurious and potentially deadly activity. Consent is a fundamental premise of combative sports and it is THE line between sport and violence.
My motto,
As I live and learn,
is:
Dig and Be Dug
In Return.
-Langston Hughes (no relation to Matt)
by loboplata on Jan 4, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 10 recs
Babalu wasn’t released because of poor sportsmanship. He was released because he ignored the ref trying to pull him off and continued to choke an unconscious opponent. Nothing Aoki did was in disregard to the ref or life-threatening to his opponent.
If Babalu had released the choke, gotten up, and flipped heath off… he probably would still be in the UFC.
Babalu = held the choke after the ref told him to stop
Aoki = stopped as soon as the ref stepped in
If either Babalu stopped when he was told and then went into Brock-mode or Aoki had to have Yuji Shimada literally pull him off twice you would have a point.
by Tonley on Jan 4, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When you cut off blood flow or the air supply of your opponent, and you hold it after the opponent goes unconscious you can cause brain damage, breaking one’s arm isn’t life threatening…. Babalu ignored the ref (who had to physically remove him from Heath), Aoki let go immediately once the ref came in to stop the fight.. Yes Aoki broke the arm, yet his opponent refused to tap, David Heath did tap, just my opinion but these two events are nothing alike……
"Its a cliche that boxing is the sweet science, man we're astro physics..." ~ Mayhem Miller speaking about MMA
not arguing who was right or who was wrong. dana white basically said, “shit happens when dudes get in a fight.”
by slantedwindows on Jan 4, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
So is Aoki going to get some of his purse withheld or what? I dont agree with these arm breaking antics, chocking someone out is one thing but to break their arm is a dick move considering how long it takes to heal from that kind of injury.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
If I lock a submission and the dude tries to escape, fine, I’ll crank harder.
At some point he should know he can’t escape anymore. If he is proud and all, that’s fine with me, that’s your arm after all. If you don’t need your arm, I’m ok to bring it home with me. Sometimes you don’t see it coming, then it’s just a freak injury and there is nothing to be said.
Should I apologize? no. Should I feel sorry for him? Maybe maybe not. But that’s between me and my conscience. So what were we talking about? Oh yeah Brock, so…
This was my personal Frank Mir impersonation.
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
No problem with the arm break.
If dude doesn’t tap in a pro fight, that’s what you get. But flipping him off afterwards is a little over the top, for me. Do I think he should be fined? No. Will I be buying a Shinya Aoki t-shirt anytime soon? Not likely. I vote with my wallet. In MMA, it’s easy to support your favorite fighters directly. Or not.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 4, 2010 12:57 PM EST reply actions
I’m not a a native English speaker, but I have published texts in English professionally and English has been my single professional language for five years. I have read scholarly text in English every day during the last ten years.
But still, everytime I read a somewhat longer text by Luke I have to flip to the dictionary tab (since I often read his texts I always have one open). I guess my mma-fanaticism isn’t only a bad thing.
English is also my second language and it is never as evident then when I read Luke’s stuff.
My first language is a series of grunts and pointing.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Parisian French?
Keep firing Assholes!
It’s as if you fell down a flight of stairs, then logged onto the internet.
by Ubernoober on Jan 4, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Clearly Dana doesn't care all that much
history tells us taht Dana will handle this sort of thing on a case by case basis. When Dana doesn’t like what someone does, there will be repercussions, otherwise he will let it go.
I think fines for post fight antics might help. The fines would need to be handled on a case by case basis, a 10k fine on a undercard guy would eat up most of his pay, but a 10k fine on a main event guy wouldn’t even make him blink.
MMA is not a team sport
It’s a combat sport, it sells because people want to see a specific fighter and controvery sells.
And please don’t give me that crap about behaviour like this hurting the sport : Do you also think Muhammad Ali hurt boxing? A lot of what he did makes Aoki’s behaviour (and even Tyson’s behaviour) seem tame by comparison.
This sort of action (Aoki)...
is best left handled in the court of public opinion, ie. the sponsors and fans. The message would be best heard by both Aoki and all other fighters if his sponsors felt some pain for supporting a guy would does this, and the trickle down effect would make many other fighters second guess any acts of douche bagger they may consider.
Its a slippery slope for a guy like Dana to go out on a limb on something like this and I don’t blame him for staying clear of it.
Yeah, let’s face it, sportsmanship is not going to be the rule every time. These guys beat the piss out of each other for a living, It’s entertaining, it’s scientific, but it ain’t noble, and it sure as hell doesn’t always appeal to the highest common denominator. Lack of character should be half expected, and sportsmanship should be celebrated.
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
by Orcus on Jan 4, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Someone please tell me
Who the two players are and/or what game this is. I’m sure there must be a hilarious article or not.
After what Materazzi (reportedly) said to Zidane, he had it coming.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jan 4, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
True
either way, interesting choice of weapon…
by dancingChicken on Jan 4, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Except for the fact that the World Cup was on the line and he threw away his teams chances because his families “honor” was insulted.
by John Nash on Jan 4, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Never understood the bile directed towards Aoki (even if I can’t stand the guy as a fighter) for his antics after his win. There are so many emotions that these guys are going through after a fight I’m willing to give them a large leeway in their actions.
Guess I’m strange, I enjoy the people that wear their emotions on their sleeve. What’s next? We disallow any winning celebrations in the cage in case the loser has hurt feelings?
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