UFC 108: Evans vs. Silva Post-Fight Recap and Analysis
by Mike Fagan on Jan 3, 2010 1:02 AM EST
in MMA News
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-The UFC has to be happy with all the quick finishes tonight. With a lack of a big draw or any hype for the card, the UFC was able to deliver quantity, with nine of the ten bouts making the broadcast (some twice), instead of quality.
-Thiago Silva will be kicking himself for a long time. After Rashad frustrated him for two rounds with a stifling wrestling game, Silva landed a combination that rocked the former champ. Instead of pressing, pressing, and pressing some more, Silva backed off. What may have began as quick breather ended as a chance for Evans to recover. Thiago couldn't find the trigger again, and allowed Rashad to escape with a decision victory.
-Could we PLEASE have five round non-title fights? It feels a little dirty leaving this fight where we did.
-I was impressed with Evans finally bringing his game together in this fight, even if he didn't really seem to make many improvements on the faults I've pointed out.
-Dear Mike Goldberg, simply bobbing your head around for no discernible reason is not effective head movement.
-Dustin Hazelett may have lost the fight, but ROLLING KOPPO KICK? Um, yes!
-Seriously, though, how do you fight Paul Daley for over two minutes without making some sort of attempt to drag him to the floor?
-Sam Stout looked fantastic, but how much of Joe Lauzon's ineffectiveness should be attributed to coming off ACL surgery? Not to take anything away from Sam, but Lauzon appeared to gas sometime in the second round.
-I enjoyed Jordan Breen's analysis of Duane Ludwig: "Next time you find yourself saying, 'Just give Striker X a year or two to work on the ground game...' think of Bang Ludwig. He's had nine."
-Junior dos Santos continued to impress, but was anyone else confused why the Zuffa mouth pieces kept hyping Yvel leading up to the fight? I'm sure they were just trying to prop up Yvel as a legitimate opponent for Cigano, but they started to have me conspiracy theorizing that they were banking on the Yvel upset. In either case, dos Santos may or may not be for real, Joe, but beating Gilbert Yvel isn't the opponent to prove it.
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Good write up. I believe Dos Santos needs to fight someone a wrestler before we can assess how really good he is.
Hazelett frustrated me so much for not trying to take the fight to the ground.
Silva atill has me shaking my head
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
beating yvel is nothing...
but i suppose if your josh barnet and have full mount for the whole fight than that makes u top 5 heavyweight in the world and a shot at fedor
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by baldspot23 on Jan 3, 2010 1:07 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Top five? Make that number 2.
After all that Yvel talk coming from the UFC and Joe Rogan I was wondering if I had missed something somewhere but no I didn’t Gilbert Yvel is what I thought he was. I guess he will make for a couple of exciting fights but he isn’t going anywhere as far as rankings and belts go.
Well that was money well spent, for all the crying and bitching that goes on here I hope those same people also know when to give props to a hell of a card.
I wouldn’t get caught up the Yvel talk, the UFC needed away to get across the fact that Dos Santos was facing a legit guy to the mainstream fans and they did just that. Junior is a killer but the fact is unless Nog losses he’s not going to get a sniff of the title picture which sucks for him because he should be right in the mix.
War Jim Miller, always love seeing the Miller Brothers fight and hopefully now he’ll get that Griffin fight he was originally promised before he got injured.
Stout looked good but we’ll find out just what effect the layoff had on Lauzon in his next fight. Speaking of the Lauzon brothers not a good night for them at all, Dan got handled earlier in the night by Cole Miller who always comes to fight.
Hazelett strategy was horrible seriously take a guy with heavy hands down don’t try to slug it out with him. I hope they give Semtex a fight with Kos next that would be fireworks and determine who’s the number 1 contender to the WW title.
Rashad was also very impressive until the third, he is lucky he wasn’t facing Rampage because he would have gotten stopped. Hopefully he’ll look back on this fight and fix the holes in his game because he’s going to have to be at his best if he want to take out Rampage.
Now for Thiago Silva he’ll be kicking himself after this fight but it won’t bump him down too far maybe give him Lil Nog or Cain next and see if he can make up for it.
Overall this was a great way to kick off the new year in mma and we still have a packed month of fights to go this month.
You nailed it with Yvel, that was one of the last last-second replacements on a card full of last second replacements, and they needed to do something.
The big names at the top pulling off hurt the card a lot, but when Sherk and Gonzaga disappeared, that really hurt the bottom of the main card and what they could show in advertising. We know Dan Miller is an exciting fighter, but Yvel translates better to commercials.
You actually said everything that I was going to say.
To add though, I wonder who the UFC is going to give Dos Santos; I am guessing his original opponent in Gonzaga.
I too was disappointed in Hazelett’s strategy to the point where I didn’t even know what it was and asked my friends what the hell he was thinking using no movement and no takedown attempts. I told my friends to watch for Daley’s left hook, and Hazelett ended up getting dropped by it. Daley has been looking awesome, but I have to wonder how he’ll deal with a wrestler like Koscheck.
Evans looks to be using his wrestling again, but it really came at the price of being a double edged sword. Evans looked content to more or less attempt to lay n prey for the victory, which honestly comsidering who his opponent was, it was probably his best strategy except he does gas himself out doing it. The fans don’t like it, but Evans in the end gets the win.
Ellenberger looks like a good up-and-comer in the Welterweight Division. I hope to see more from him very soon.
My man, Mark Munoz, looked very good against Jensen. Him training in Blackhouse is only going to help him fix his holes.
I don't care much for the Gonzaga fight
I want JDS vs. Velasquez (add this shit to 109!!!!). Mir/Carwin winner fights Big Nog, Mir/Carwin loser fights JDS/Velasquez winner.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
i should add
i don’t think Lesnar returns until late 2010, so this works out well for the division. also, if Cro Cop beats (looks rejuvenated against) Rothwell, can we have Mirko/Yvel?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
JDS/Velasquez is a great idea. It’s almost seemed like the UFC has vague brackets going for up and coming contenders lately. Cain against Junior would answer some questions about each. Cain fights like Brock, and JDS is more Nog-like, but with faster hands. I’d like to know if JDS can keep Cain standing, or sub him. Cro Cop/Yvel sounds like a fun fight that doesn’t have to mean anything. I’d kind of like to see Hazelett/Condit and hopefully Daley fights Kos for the next title shot.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jan 3, 2010 6:06 AM EST up reply actions
Stopping Werdum did not make JDS the real deal, stopping Mirko did not make him the real deal, being just the third person in over twelve years (and the first in three and a hald years) to stop Yvel did not make him the real deal…what the hell does he have to do?
by Lynchman on Jan 3, 2010 1:19 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think dos Santos is a legit threat at heavyweight. But beating the guy who was easily the least threatening in his four UFC fights isn’t what told me so.
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by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 3, 2010 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
My point is that he has four impressive wins in the UFC, what more do you want from him?? Yvel has been KO’d just three times in his twelve year career. That makes tonights win note-worthy.
If Cain loses to Nog, match him up with JDS, otherwise give him the loser of Carwin-Mir. If he wins again you got your next contender (as long as Nog doesn’t become champ).
by John Nash on Jan 3, 2010 2:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t know what you’re getting on about. I’m just laying it on Rogan for an inane comment.
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Anyone covering the post fight presser?
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by SouthAlaBamaRampage on Jan 3, 2010 1:23 AM EST reply actions
Thiago Silva will be kicking himself for a long time.
You can say that again. I thought he had the fight won and for some reason he refused to keep throwing punches.
And Rashad can’t feel great either. If Thiago had been able to keep up the pressure he easily could have lost.
I actually have more faith now that Rampage will beat Rashad
While I can see Evans getting the takedowns or trying to on Rampage to get the win, Rampage is a much better striker than SIlva, and has better takedown defense (he defended some of Jardine’s takedowns and defended some, not all, takedowns from Dan Henderson). Evans does have speed for sure, but Rampage has many tools that would give Evans problems.
Man I’m tired of this shit I’ve doubted jds as much as anyone but after tonite I’ll say he’s for real.
by kanodogg on Jan 3, 2010 1:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Rashad should return his black belt and ask for a refund.
by mmalogic on Jan 3, 2010 1:29 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
lol. Man Evans did absolutely terrible with his top control
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Truth.
Please don’t try to be like GSP if your initials are not GSP. It’s just going to make you a boring fighter that no one wants to watch.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 3, 2010 2:57 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, it works for GSP because he actually has the cardio. It’s probably gonna work for cain also. But you need cardio to truly harness the power of Wear and Tear™
by mmalogic on Jan 3, 2010 5:31 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His 5 TKO victories in 7 fights says otherwise.
Not counting the Rothwell stoppage as a TKO. It probably would have been eventually, but that stoppage was total BS.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 3, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Pillow Hands.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 3, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, totally.
His four consecutive (making up over half of his wins) first round stoppages by punches agree.
Cain has had one fight go to decision, and it was against a guy who has only been TKO’d by Gilbert effing Yvel. In 2004. Seriously, what is wrong with MMA fans?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 3, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a difference between a TKO from accumulated punches just wearing someone out and having the power to stop someone cold in their tracks. Cain has not shown the latter. Hence, Pillow Hands.
Not sure why you’re acting all surprised that there is a knock against Cain’s power. It’s a commonly held opinion. Pretty much the only knock on the guy to this point. Way to move the goalposts, though.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 3, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
How am I moving the goalposts?
If anything, you did. iiowyn said he can’t do damage, that was what I was addressing. You seemed to be piling on in agreement.
People say he has no power and can’t finish. It was commonly said after the Kongo fight. I don’t even like Cain, think he’s overrated and about to hit a ceiling in the division, but the criticisms of him are almost silly.
If Cain put power in all of his shots, his cardio might not hold out. He takes the Nick Diaz approach. Huge volume, relentless pace, no breathing room. Not every shot needs to be a haymaker to end the fight when you can outlast or overwhelm.
People knocking him for not doing damage is like when people say GSP is lay and pray. Just silly criticism based on non-representative cross sections of fights and without context.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 3, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
You said that Cain’s string of TKO victories are representative of him being able to do damage. Seems you’re operating under a different definition of “damage” than the rest of us.
GSP and Nick Diaz aren’t hulking behemoths. Cain is, and his primary mode of attack is striking/GnP. If his punches aren’t doing enough damage to put the lights out, then he’s likely to run into trouble against the more resilient opponents down the road. This would all be moot if he were adept at submitting people (as Diaz and, to a somewhat lesser extent, GSP are) after his easy-as-pie takedowns, but that isn’t the case.
Cain has one way to finish a fight. He’s simply going to need more power behind his punches in order to do the damage required to put someone like Nog, Mir, or Carwin away. Cain hasn’t shown it yet. It’s a valid criticism of the guy if he is to be expected to climb up a few more rungs on the HW ladder.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 3, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
It works out ok for Jon Fitch
who is a hulking behemoth in his division, and right next to the top. But that isn’t even a characterization I’d use for Cain. Todd Duffee, Mir 2.0, Brock, Carwin, and maybe Brett Rogers are hulking behemoths. Each of them have a solid size advantage over Cain, who is an average HW.
Back on topic though, Cain does a good deal of damage with his hands. Rothwell, early stoppage and all, was given an extra 60 days no contact medical suspension (on top of the 45, which is standard for a TKO loss), after just over one round. That’s longer than the same doctors deemed Yoshida (KTFO), Hardonk (KTFO), Fisher (one sided decision loss), or Schafer (brutally beaten) needed to be out.
I have plenty of issues with Cain. He hasn’t faced anyone with good BJJ yet, or been matched up with another wrestler. His chin is questionable after the Kongo fight, and I think he’ll get KTFO’d by someone like JDS or Duffee. He is somehow unanimously considered top 10 after beating a fringe top 15 HW in Kongo and is still a very green prospect. His ability to do damage on the ground is one of the few things I believe we know he does well.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 3, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone knows hoverboards don't work on water...
UNLESS YOU GOT POWER!
QED
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 3, 2010 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
I have not seen Cain’s early fights, but every stoppage I have seen from him in the UFC has been from the ref stepping in due to his opponent not defending himself properly. O’Brien was due to crucifix, Stojnic looked absolutely fine after the ref stepped in, he popped up immediately. Against Kongo, Cain hit him in the head 247 times on the ground and was unable to finish. 247.
Carwin has power, Lesnar has power, Kongo has power. Cain does not.
Guillotine.
People kept bitching on how bad UFC 108 will be...
this card was full of late replacements, but they still delivered.
I went 7-3 on my picks..
I knew Hazelett would be in trouble against a guy like Daley, but he’s one of my favorite fighters, so I still picked him… I believed both Lauzons would win though…
But at least I won all my bets tonight.. Straight bets on Munoz and Rashad (bigger play on Munoz), and a parlay of Munoz-Rashad-Oliveira.
Funny, I went 7-3 on my picks as well
I picked Thiago Silva, Joe Lauzon, and Dutin Hazelett to win, but they ended up losing. I choose the right fighters in the other fights though.
Too bad for Rashad he couldn’t do anything with that. Oh well, a win is a win.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
They need to change the way takedowns and top control are scored.
It doesn’t mean a goddamn thing if you don’t do any damage.
Totally agree with you.
The scoring system is putrid for the fight game. Massive overhaul with FAR more importance placed on truly dominant rounds. What we’ve got allows for some really silly decisions to take place. If the majority of rounds were scored 10-8 or 10-7, using the general framework of the 10 point must system, it would swing things quite a bit, and make fights like this a little less controversial.
It’s too subjective, anyways. Judges basically flipping a coin isn’t what we need. We need educated people in there with firm criteria which allow the fighters to actually impact the outcome of the fight with a truly dominant exchange.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I was just coming here to say the same thing. Up until the the third round I had this fight as a draw. Sure, Rashad was taking Thiago down at will… at the same time Thiago was standing up whenever he wanted. Rashad advanced his position once to get to mount and did almost nothing with it.
Don’t get me wrong, Rashad executed a great gameplan, he kept Thiago off balance and from implementing his formidable and, in my opinion, superior striking game and won the fight according to the established scoring criteria.
But seriously, if all you want to do is shoot takedowns for 15 minutes, go to a damn wrestling meet.
by exsanguinator on Jan 3, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
What if fighters decide to box for 15 minutes, should they go to boxing ring?
by dancingChicken on Jan 3, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Rashad set up the takedowns with his striking and some of those takedowns were strong enough to be considered slams, not to mention he was pretty much taking him down at will. He was also advancing position on the ground. Standing back up is a purely defensive move it wouldn’t score any points in any system and Thiago accomplished nothing at all in the first two rounds, heck it was 4 minutes into the second round before he even connected with a decent punch. Heck if Rashad had been able to score any real damage from the mount in the first round that would of been closer to a 10-8 than the third round was. It wasn’t an even fight at all because Thiago did nothing at all that would score in any scoring system and Rashad was doing all sorts of things. The first two rounds were very dominant rounds for Rashad Evans and that doesn’t matter what scoring system they used or what judges they had out there. You do nothing in a fight and you score nothing, that isn’t a problem with the judges or the system it’s a fighter who did nothing vs a fighter who was striking and taking him down at will.
you make some interesting points in your argument and I do agree that standing up is a purely defensive maneuver. However, it also constitutes effect grappling which is one of the primary scoring criteria under the current system. If a fighter scores multiple takedowns but the other fighter stands up almost directly after said takedowns, why should the other fighter receive less points?
Both are effective grappling and in this fight in particular, there was almost nothing done with the takedowns that Rashad scored. In fact, one could argue that those takedowns when weighed against the amount of times that Thiago stood up to them do not actually constitute effective grappling at all and hence should not score points in the first place.
If a fighter scores takedowns and does not do anything with them then why should he be rewarded while the fighter that regains his feet and does nothing with that position gets no credit for his grappling at all?
The only possible explanation that I can see this is the outside factors of aggressiveness and octagon control. Of course, you gotta realize that both of those terms are also prefaced by the word ‘effective’. You can chase the other guy around the cage all you want, being aggressive, but if you are not doing anything with it then it is not effective aggression. Same thing with octagon control. There are many ways to control the octagon but if nothing comes of it, then what is the point?
by exsanguinator on Jan 3, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I said this elsewhere and I think it bears repeating here:
in wrestling a takedown is worth 2 points while and escape (to standing) is worth 1 point. I don’t think the spread is that wide in MMA, but the takedown must be awarded more than the escape simply because it displays aggression and terrain control. Even if that control doesn’t last, it’s obvious that the fighter executing the takedown is putting the fight where he wants, and where his opponent doesn’t want.
That said, it should be more narrow than a 2:1 ratio. More like 3:2, I’d say, which is workable and I think most people could get behind that type of approach.
I know a lot of boxing/kickboxing fans view a takedown as little more than a glorified clinch, but it really isn’t. Damage can and does occur during takedown transitions, and controlling the terrain of the fight is massively important in any combat sport (just think about great boxers, some work inside with uppercuts and hooks, others work primarily off their jab and use footwork to maintain range. essentially, a takedown is the same as footwork in boxing. just because a fighter is constantly backpedaling in the ring doesn’t mean his movements are ineffectual, cowardly or whatever).
All of this, the back-and-forth on the subject of terrain control and aggression, seriously needs to be addressed in a major revision of the scoring system. We can argue for hours on end, but the problem is this is a new sport, so comparing it to boxing, kickboxing, BJJ or wrestling will only go so far. It’s mostly opinion at the end of the day.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
thanks for the info. I didn’t know that about wrestling scoring.
by exsanguinator on Jan 4, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Good to see you here too Jonez.
I agree. I also think there needs to be more rounds scored 10-10.
Round 1: Evans 10-9
Round 2: 10-10
Round 3: Silva 10-8
Only problem I have with going 10-10
is it doesn’t really eliminate the possibility of reasonably close fights going the wrong way. I prefer, rather than 10-10 rounds becoming the norm, 10-8, 10-7 rounds being the standard 60% of the time. That almost single-handedly eliminates the possibility of this particular outcome occurring. Using this type of method, I’d have had the fight thus:
Round 1: Evans 10-7
Round 2: Evans 10-9
Round 3: Thiago 10-7
Thiago could have EASILY made that final round a 10-6 or maybe even 10-5 if he’d really put it to Rashad when he was hurt. But he basically quit after he wobbled him, which is what makes it 10-7. That, and he really didn’t do anything until about halfway through the round when he caught Evans.
And let me make it perfectly clear: I am in no way, shape or form a Rashad Evans fan. This is just how I saw the fight.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Yeah, change the way we score the fight so Rashad doesn’t win it. Seriously? Taking your opponent down over and over isn’t effective control now? Have you seen a Randy Couture fight? Something tells me it isn’t that easy to keep a BJJ black belt on the ground and inflict damage. Evans used heavy combos to set up his takedowns and until getting caught by one punch in the 3rd round he stayed out of trouble. Apparently this isn’t enough to win a fight in your book so thank goodness you’re not judging these fights.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
It doesn’t matter how you score those first two round they were still Rashad’s. Yes he wasn’t doing much damage but he was connecting on his feet too where as Silva did nothing at all till the second round was almost over. Even if you don’t score the takedowns and the advancing position and top control at all they are still Rashad’s rounds based on the fact that doing anything is going to beat doing nothing at all. Thiago Silva looked like crap and did nothing for two and a half rounds, by any scoring system out there he was losing that fight badly up until he landed a couple of good shots at the end of the third round.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Jan 3, 2010 4:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Does anyone have any stats on how many times the fight who doesnt make weight have won fight in question?
Off the top of my head-
Alves vs Hughes- Alves missed and won
Johnson vs Yoshida- Johnson missed and won
Daley vs Hazelett- Daley missed and won
Silva vs Lutter- Lutter missed and lost
Also
Johnson missed against Clementi and lost but that was on short notice as a replacement, the UFC knew he wouldn’t be able to make weight.
Hughes vs Riggs - Riggs missed and lost
Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 3, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
Hermes Franca vs Tyson Griffin,
Franca missed by 4 lbs and lost
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 3, 2010 2:34 AM EST up reply actions
And Gouveia/Belcher more recently
Gouveia missed so bad he asked for the catchweight.
Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 3, 2010 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
they both missed
I don’t think this one counts.
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Belcher didn't miss
he stopped cutting when he found out Wilson wasn’t going to make weight and agreed upon a catchweight.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 3, 2010 4:17 AM EST up reply actions
For the purposes of this discussion
Gouveia couldn’t cut to the agreed upon weight, so he asked for a catchweight. In my eyes that’s equivalent to missing weight.
Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 3, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Cyborg/Akano
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 3, 2010 3:05 AM EST up reply actions
Greg Jackson's "LNP" fighting system
We already have one LnP champ in GSP, I hope to God we don’t get another in Rashad Evans. I got my money’s worth on UFC 108 until Rashad showed up with Greg “We manufacturer Lay N Prayer extraordinares” Jackson’s fighting system. Rashad Evan’s striking was exposed tonight.
by cyph on Jan 3, 2010 1:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, some people think this is boxing with BJJ.
I know that’s kind of how Fedor likes it, and in truth, there’s nothing wrong with boxing plus BJJ. It’s just that’s not what we have. The rules have consistently neutered wrestlers with pretty much every major change (I’m not going to bother arguing with you if you think they help wrestlers, so go ahead and spam reply this if you need to vent), in order to keep the product entertaining and allow for multiple styles to present. With knees to the head of a downed opponent, every single fight with a wrestling disparity goes like this:
Step 1: starts standing
Step 2: better wrestler achieves takedown
Step 3: better wrestler achieves side control
Step 4: better wrestler KO’s opponent with knees to the head
The main variation you would see is this
Step 1: starts standing
Step 2: takedown attempt is stuffed by a good sprawl (by the better wrestler, generally) and the sprawling fighter proceeds to KO opponent with knees to the head, either with front control or a quarter nelson.
There would still be plenty of fights where there wouldn’t be a big enough wrestling disparity that guys would prefer to fight standing, or roll BJJ with each other for awhile, but it’s just ridiculous how some people are so vehemently anti-wrestling. Next we’ll hear another round of calls to eliminate elbows to the head on the ground.
Then again, I really despise Monty Python’s King Arthur boxers like Floyd Mayweather Jr. because of his style, so to each his/her own.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Who are these lay and pray fighters that you are talking about?
GSP is badly busting guys up in fights, he’s about as far from Lay and Pray as you can get.
Who has Keith Jardine ever taken down and laid on? Heck who has Keith Jardine ever taken down?
I’ve never heard anyone call Nate Marquardt out for lay and pray and lately he’s been knocking guys out.
Same goes for Shane Carwin, Jon Jones, McSweeny and Schaub from TUF, Leonard Garcia, Donald Cerrone, Cub Swanson, Carlos Condit, Joey Villasenor or Brian Stann.
It seems like Greg Jackson’s camp is pretty well represented across the board style wise.
by who me on Jan 3, 2010 3:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s sad that I have to keep explaining this.
GSP is not a lay and pay fighter. “Lay and pray” means laying in your opponent’s guard and paying for favorable decision. GSP stays active and advances position. The man passed BJ Penn’s guard multiple times.
Add in the fact that he still finishes his opponents more often than not, and you’ve got a ground fighter that is quite far from lay and pray.
by JRN on Jan 3, 2010 3:40 AM EST up reply actions
Also:
GSP beat Alves by decision after trying to finish with an armbar.
GSP beat Penn by TKO after Penn quit on the stool.
GSP beat Fitch by decision after inflicting more damage than a human should be able to take.
GSP beat Serra by TKO, subbed Hughes, and has a ton of submission and TKO victories on his record.
Is that the record of a lay and pray’er?
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jan 3, 2010 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude you are so owned. Even for Rashad this is the only fight I can remember in a while where he didn’t get a lot of damage done on the ground. Forrest was pounded out. Chuck was knocked out. He was knocked out standing with Machida. He knocked out salmon with a head kick. I mean damn, did you think about that comment at all before you typed it? Did you see what GSP’s opponents looked like when he was done? What about Jon Jones?
Even this fight, though he didn’t do any damage after the takedowns, it’s not like he layed on him, the fight went back to standing right away.
by Dooda on Jan 3, 2010 4:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How many guys are “FOR REAL” according to Rogan? Alexander houston was also for real according to him
i think he just means they’re real people, not figments of our imagination. at least that way it makes sense
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Rogan probably does need to work hard establishing that difference for himself…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 3, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
are we learning yet?
That article on her about how this card was destined to be boring and horrible really looks brilliant now :D
by theplague on Jan 3, 2010 1:59 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
did it?
looked very much what i expected. Good undercard, bad main event, very little relevance overall to title pictures.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 3, 2010 2:08 AM EST up reply actions
yes, superstar, it did.
If you didn’t appreciate those fights, maybe you should find another sport to watch. It doesn’t make you sound cool to be overly critical for no reason, just sour.
by theplague on Jan 3, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And just because someone has a different opinion to you doesnt make them wrong.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
What a brilliant observation Benicio
I’ll be sure to copy that advice to a .txt file and look at it every day.
who said anything
about not appreciating the fights? The undercard was good, the ME was bad and none of the fights holds any implications for near term title pictures.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 3, 2010 4:16 AM EST up reply actions
The Paul Daley win probably has a lot of relevance to the title picture, he’s climbing the ranks quick. Rashad winning has huge title implications, Jim Miller is definately making big waves in his division, Sam Stout vs. Joe Lauzon was a very important divisional fight and JDS’s win has people talking about title contention. So which fight on the main card didn’t have relevance to the title picture? Seriously those were all pretty important fights that were all relevant to the respective fighters divisions in a big way. Yes no number one contenders were crowned but that doesn’t mean that those fights weren’t relevant to that.
by who me on Jan 3, 2010 2:18 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed, who me
glad some other people can enjoy a good MMA show.
Hey I enjoyed the card. It just needed another Rashad v Silva level fight to really make it a solid one.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
For sure, as far as star power goes, I'm with you
But for just pure MMA action, it doesn’t get much better. It took me 7 hours watching K-1 Dynamite!! to see as many exciting fights as I did tonight.
My issue was with the statement that the fights weren’t relevant. Everyone has different likes and dislikes and different opinions about what makes for an interesting show, nothing wrong with that but to say the fights weren’t relevant is just plain factually wrong. Every fight on the card had real meaning as far as divisional rankings go and several of them were extremely relevant to the title picture in 2010. Heck three of the guys on the card have put themselves right up there in the mix now and they have all but said this should fast track Rashad on the way to a rematch for the belt. Not every show is going to have huge cards full of stars but that doesn’t mean the show isn’t relevant, heck it’s shows like this were guys get to shine and stars are made.
Let's see Daley beat some of the AKA trio
before we put him in the title picture. JDS still has Mir, Carwin, Nog and Velasquez ahead of him. Penn will most likely fight (in no particular order) Gomi, Florian and Edgar or Maynard before Miller gets a crack. Stout is even further back in the pack. Evans doesn’t have next, that’s Rua. Top 10 LHW fight? Sure. He’ll still have to beat Jackson to even be considered for a title shot, and even then he might not get it.
Again, they were fine fights, but the main event was terribad and the fights in general were of little to no immediate relevance to title pictures.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 3, 2010 4:14 AM EST up reply actions
To have title implications doesn’t just mean that they guy becomes the number one contender. Daley will probably get that shot at one of the AKA guys now which means that he is right there in the discussion and could possibly be one fight away. What is standing in JDS’s way isn’t any of those guys it’s him not fighting Big Nog but he is in the picture as one of the elite in the division and will be considered a top contender. Miller is 5-1 in the UFC and you know he is going to get a big fight now which puts him in the picture. Stout vs Lauzon had all sorts of divisional implications for Joe Lauzon, it was a important fight in the division. Evans vs Rampage will decide who has next, the fight had huge title implications. Yes none of these fights decided a number one contender but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t have real relevance on the title picture in those divisions, you don’t get to be a number one contender unless you get to the top of the division, at least three fighters on this card have shown they are within one big win of getting a title shot. Just because a fight doesn’t decide a number one contender doesn’t mean that it’s not relevant, hell you will never get a number one contender unless you have the fights that get guys to stand out in the division. All the fights on the main card were important fights.
you seem to be missing the point.
the UFC has ~12 ppv’s a year and 5 titles. If you’re not going to have a belt on the line at the main event, you should (need) to have a #1 contender’s match. Failing that, you need to put up two clearly awesome fighters who’ve earned a spot in the lexicon of MMA as top fighters. Franklin/Wanderlei. Spider/Forrest. Couture/Nog. Evans/ T. Silva does not fit that bill.
The fact that none of these fighters will be in a title shot for at least the next 5 months (barring a HUGE spate of injuries) remains.
Stout vs Lauzon had all sorts of divisional implications for Joe Lauzon, it was a important fight in the division.
No. It had squadoosh to do with importance. Zilch. None. Stout is a low- to mid-tier fighter who’s been in 5 decisions in a row and is 3-2 in those with losses to the like of Terry Etim and Rich Clementi. He’s at LEAST 3-4 wins away from being in a title picture. This was Lauzon’s first fight in 11 months, coming off of knee surgery. He’s got one significant win in his career ever, over Pulver 3.5 years ago. He’s something like 8 wins away from title talk. Zero importance.
What is standing in JDS’s way isn’t any of those guys it’s him not fighting Big Nog but he is in the picture as one of the elite in the division and will be considered a top contender.
He’s still #5 in line and won’t be in a 5-round UFC fight until the summer at the very possible soonest. It’s nice that we get to see a top10 fighter continue to climb, but when you talk title picture, you go “OK, if Lesnar isn’t healthy enough to fight soon, then Mir/Carwin goes for an interim belt and they face the winner of Nog/Cain and then after that, assuming he doesn’t lose, maybe JDS gets the shot…” That isn’t fuckin relevant.
Miller is 5-1 in the UFC and you know he is going to get a big fight now which puts him in the picture.
No, he isn’t. He’s 5-2, just got KTFO’d by Escudero and has recent wins over Leonard Garcia (now fighting at featherweight to middling success), Gurgel (1-1 since being cut by the UFC), Browning (rofl) and Lauzon who was coming back from an ACL injury. He’s at least 4-5 wins away from title talk.
Evans vs Rampage will decide who has next, the fight had huge title implications.
Except it might not. Evans looked very mediocre in this fight and barely scraped out a win from a guy who performed even worse. Let’s assume Evans gets by Page in a decision. Maybe even a split decision and it’s a mediocre affair like this one. You really think the UFC may not give him yet another hurdle to clear? Maybe the Loser of Rua/Machida? Maybe Couture? Jon Jones? Some other LHW?
NONE of these fighters will be fighting for belts soon and thats the problem with this card. Nice fights, bad main event, no relevance.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 3, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
stop worrying about relevance and enjoy the fights.
This is bloody elbow. We watch wargods and Yamma, good fights are good fights.
This card had a million people drop out due to injury and still had a #3 vs #8 in LHW, #5 vs #22 in HW, and #10 vs #16 in WW. It also had the #12 WW in his first fight back after a loss, and lots of other good fighters who are on the fringe of a top 25.
If you can only watch fights that involve the champions or #1 contenders, you’re going to miss out on a lot of relevant and entertaining mma.
by Phildo on Jan 3, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
It would’ve been a much better card if there was a title on the line, fights with immediate title implications or a main event worthy of being a main event.
Good fights can be seen anywhere. A PPV should include both good fights AND fights that matter in the overall title picture.
There’s a reason I don’t give a damn about Div II football, the local MMA scene or Professional Lithuanian basketball (despite having 3 or 4 guys reach the NBA).
I stayed up all night for Dynamite
I’ve been at this for a while.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jan 4, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Please post the link to that article.
by John Nash on Jan 3, 2010 2:10 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
darce vs. gullotine
can somebody tell me why kapmans w. was by guillotine and not by darce? whats the diffrence i know a little bjj but not enough to know how that happened help?
pitbull17
I think...
the difference is that with the darce, there’s an arm in, like with an arm triangle, and it just looked similar because of the war Martin locked his arms up. What I’d like to know is what the difference is between an anaconda and darce.
from the guard
wouldn’t that just be another tyype of guillatine? even with the arm in? anacond is really what they should have called it, and th darce is the same as the anaconda i think, i don’t know, just had my acl replaced so i haven’t been going to class but damn, i was yelling he’s got an anaconda about the time rogan called it a guillatine, so i’m confused, i’d like for it to be explained a little more clear when i’m sober,
pitbull17
darce vs guillotine
when he says arm in, he doesnt mean like an arm in guillotine. He means the guy getting choked did not have an arm in to secure the choke. Triangles, arm triangles, brabo, d’arce are all the same concept. Guillotine and arm in guillotine is just straight choke.
D’arce and anaconda are the same concept but it depends which arm you are shooting under, and grabbing with. Brabo and anaconda are the same thing. Just watch a youtube instructional on a d’arce, then watch one on a brabo and you will notice the difference.
Hope that clears it up a bit!
The brabo and the darce are the ones that are the same. The anaconda is the odd one out.
by exsanguinator on Jan 3, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
For the d’arce/brabo, you reach under your opponents arm, then around his neck and lock it up with your free arm right next to his head on the other side.
For the anaconda, you reach around your opponents neck, like a front headlock, and reach across, under your opponents far arm and lock up with your free arm on the other side.
Rogan was hyping up Yvel because he’s a Pride fan. No more, no less.
by Polyh3dron on Jan 3, 2010 2:12 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Rogan was hyping up Yvel because that is his job. If he wasn’t hyping up fighters on the card he would be a piss poor color commentator.
by who me on Jan 3, 2010 2:19 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Rogan was on Shogun’s nuts for the same reason.
by Polyh3dron on Jan 3, 2010 4:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Watch the Forrest/Shogun fight, and see that he was on Shogun’s nuts, but on Forrest’s…
cagar é uma filosofia profunda...
a merda bate na água e a água bate na bunda.
but considering his performance…it looks like the ‘nuthugging’ was deserved, so what’s your point?
by CliChe Guevara on Jan 3, 2010 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Complete game? Did we watch the same fight? Evans has digressed so far. He looked horrible. I hate the Couture Vera hold em cuz you can’t outpunch em fight. Boring.
However, Silva, completely disappointed me. He looked tired from the start. The confident guy who could walk through anyone did not enter that ring. He has not improved from the loss. I was thinking maybe he had problems with the weight cut.
I think Dos Santos did cement himself somewhat, but only as a striker. Beating Yvel on the ground doesn’t say much about a fighter, but beating him on the feet certainly does. Yvel was one of the most feared strikers in mma for a while. He may have lost some of that since his Pride days but back to back wins over Crocop and Yvel on the feet certainly do alot for your striking credibility.
After the UFC gives him a competent grappler to test his ground game, such as Gonzaga again, i’d like to see Dos Santos vs Kongo to test who the UFC’s best heavyweight striker is.
I don’t think Silva’s ‘brain fart’ is any where near as bad as it is being made out to be. He tried to follow up and finish for the next 10-15 seconds, realised Evans was defending and had recovered and didn’t want to completely exhaust himself trying to finish a defending opponent. It might not have been the best tactic but it wasn’t a complete fuck up either.
It wouldn’t have been a bad tactic in the first. It was absolutely terrible in the third when he was down by two rounds and appeared to have his opponent on the ropes before he inexplicably stood up.
Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 3, 2010 3:24 AM EST up reply actions
Yea by that point in the fight there was no sense in trying to save yourself for later, it was pretty obvious he needed to finish if he was going to get the W. His actions cost him the fight, I think that is as bad as people are making it out to be. Heck it’s hard to get much worse than losing the fight because of if.
Yeah but people are acting like he dropped him and then immedietly stood there with his hands on his hips. When you’re that gassed sometimes the body just wont do what you want. He was banking on dropping him with another big punch in the standup, it just didn’t come.
People are acting like he wasn’t able to get anything going for the entire fight and then at the end when he finally had a chance to do something he backed off. The fight was almost over, when did he think he was going to get that next big punch in? In what world is going from having an opponent in trouble to pulling back to let him recover with only seconds left in a fight a good move? Seriously there was just one minute left in a fight he was definately losing when Thiago backed off and took a breather, of course people are going to jump all over him for that.
apparently frank mir is the UFC’s best heavyweight striker based on that criteria. in franks mind he is the best striker in the solar system. there are a few capable heavyweights north of the milky way – you tube them.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
Also Hazelett got caught dropping his hand, but i think his strategy was ok. He tried using his push kicks and reach to keep Daley at bay. Hazelett was never going to take down Daley by over powering him, his only chance was to try to get Daley over agressive with his striking and drag it to the ground or pull guard. He was doing the right thing, he just got caught it all.
OMG a rolling coppo kick that MISSED that surely deserves a right up in the post fight analysis over any mention of how Daley won the fight over Hazelett.
"of a world thats doing its best, night and day,
to make me everybody else"
by Lay 'n' Pray on Jan 3, 2010 7:31 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yvel vs Buentello
Dos Santos vs Cain if he beats Nog/ loser of Carwin vs Mir or Gonzaga.
Thiago Silva vs the loser of Bones vs Vera or Bader if he beats Jardine.
Rashad vs Rampage.
Ellenburger vs Marcus Davis/Saunders
Munoz vs Quarry/Gouveia/Dollaway.
Cole Miller vs Etim/Pearson.
Kampmann vs Ellenberger
Jim Miller vs Stout/Guida
Daley vs KOS.(or maybe A Johnson before KOS.
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