FightLines: UFC Heavyweights
by Mike Fagan on Jan 26, 2010 9:18 PM EST
in MMA News
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LESNAR <> MIR
Lots of relics on this one. Eddie Sanchez. Soa Palelei. Colin Robinson. Mike Wessel. Jake O'Brien. Randy Couture. Assuereo Silva. Dan Evensen. Andrei Arlovski. Fabricio Werdum. By release or weight cut, all gone from the UFC's heavyweight division.
That leaves a very shallow pool of talent for matchmaker Joe Silva to work with. As a result, a prospect like Cain Velasquez, with all of seven professional fights, is thrust into the deep end of the championship pool. And that's without mentioning Shane Carwin (11 fights), Junior dos Santos (11 fights), and that Brock Lesnar guy (5 fights).
There's a perpetual and inane argument within the MMA community about the depth of the heavyweight division inside and outside of the UFC. If there's any significant advantage to either side (and I don't think there is), it's so marginal as to be a worthless talking point. The real point is this: the heavyweight division, as a whole, is incredibly shallow.
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where is andrei arlovski btw?
hes right up at the top there but the guys been gone forever what the hells he up too?
wheres sexyama too while im talking about missing mma fighters
a. UFC heavyweights
b. UFC heavyweights
by Austin Martin on Jan 26, 2010 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
c. saw that Arlovski was on it, even though he isnt in the UFC
d. refer to b about your sexyama question
by Austin Martin on Jan 26, 2010 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
im not looking for sexyama on this list or expecting arlovski to come back to ufc
i just wanna see the 2 fight again a little off topic but just wondering what happened to the 2 of them
Problems
Arlovski lost to Sylvia twice, but is still several levels above him on this… why? Also, Vera destroyed Mir, but is well below him on this as well… there are HUGE flaws in this diagram
by PHISH NATION on Jan 27, 2010 7:22 AM EST up reply actions
threeyearwindowthreeyearwindowthreeyearwindow
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THREE…YEAR…WINDOW
As in it only takes the last 3 years into account. Vera beating Mir does not factor in…as it was not in the last 3 years…etc.
There are no HUGE flaws with the diagram. It shows exactly what it is supposed to show.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shouldn’t Kimbo be on here? I mean technically that was a heavyweight fight right?
by ufc4 on Jan 26, 2010 8:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions
no 215 catchweight against a lhw
technically it doesnt count
The LHW limit is 205, anything over that is heavyweight.
by ufc4 on Jan 26, 2010 8:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But if it was a HW fight...
there would be no need to weigh in at 215. I think that’s where the distinction comes from.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Yeah, I’m still trying to figure out what to do with catchweights. Like…where do you put all the Franklinweight bouts? They’re technically LHW, but Belfort and Silva are middleweights for all intents and purposes.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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In any case, it’s totally irrelevant since it would just be Slice → Alexander
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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I think they should be included if the winning fighter (Franklin, Kimbo, etc) has fought in that weightclass before.
by ufc4 on Jan 26, 2010 8:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So Kimbo Slice, who never fought in the UFC heavyweight division, should be given credit for a win at HW for beating Houston Alexander, who’s only fight at 205 in the UFC?
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And he beat a blown up LHW.
I’m not saying the idea doesn’t have merit because it’s a viable solution. But I’m not sure if it really reflects the state of a division.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I mean specific to Kimbo having only one official fight in the UFC being against a LHW, Franklin has several fights in the UFC against both MW’s and LHW’s so including his catchweight bouts at LHW makes more sense in that situation.
Right, but he was fighting guys to give them a bridge to 185. They had no relevance on the 205 division.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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Well Rich has no relevance to either division so…..let’s compromise and just leave him out altogether?
Can’t tell if this is sarcasm/serious/rhetorical?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
More sarcasm than anything, but I mean Rich is really just a gatekeeper no matter which division he ends up in right? It’s not like he’s gonna be fighting for a title anytime soon. And this has nothing to do with Fightlines, I was just making an observation on Rich’s career at this point.
I don’t like when people reduce a quality fighter to gatekeeper status. Most of the guys on this, or any other Fight Lines, are less likely to be in a title picture than Rich Franklin is. IMO.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Yeah, but most of the guys also haven’t had multiple title fights in the past few years. Matt Hughes is in the same boat.
Hughes and Franklin are not in the same boat
Franklin is in a new division, is still a legit threat and is prepared to fight the best fighters. His window may be closing, but it’s not closed. Hughes is resigned to the fact that he’s not a title fighter anymore, Franklin is not. And, believe me, I’m not a Franklin fan by any stretch. I just think he’s severely undervalued and I think it’s a shame he’s referred to as a mere “gatekeeper” when a title with such a negative connotation actually means he’s better than almost everyone.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 26, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, Franklin is in a new division- the 195 lb. division which technically doesn’t exist. He’s better than a lot of fighters, sure, but that doesn’t make him a title contender.
Seriously?
It also doesn’t resign him to limbo— he’s better at 205 than many of the fighters on these Fight Lines lists. And if there was a 195, he’d probably be the champ. You’re telling me if he was at 185 and fighting Nate you wouldn’t find that highly compelling? Or if he gets scheduled to fight Jardine, you wouldn’t find that fight interesting? He wins a fight of that measure at 205, and then a fight against a contender in the division and he’s in the mix. Dude is so far from dead to rights at 205..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 26, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a reason the UFC isn’t giving him meaningful fights at 205. Would I be interested in a fight against Marquardt or Jardine? Sure, it’d be fun to watch, but there’s no way in hell he gets another title fight at MW as long as Anderson is around and I don’t see him being able to win 3 in a row against the top LHW’s to earn a title shot so where does that leave him?
No
He’s not getting fights at 205 because he’s been offered fights with a guy that’s moving down and a middleweight that didn’t want to go up. He’s a 205er.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 26, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think the point that Blackout’s making is that if you’re only concerned with who is a legitimate threat to the champ, you’ll be concerned with 3-4 guys tops.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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There’s also the guys like Jon Jones and Anthony Johnson who aren’t top contenders now but might be a year or two from now. I just don’t find guys like Franklin (and Chuck, and Hughes) particularly compelling because they are no longer important in the grand scheme of things. They can still be involved in interesting matchups but that’s about it.
Awesome...it's back...
The real point is this: the heavyweight division, as a whole, is incredibly shallow.
And now we have proof in graphical form.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Yeah, compare the heavyweight graphs to lightweight or middleweight. There’s a huge discrepancy in nodes.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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So uh
I don’t get it. Where’s Vera’s win over Mir? Hell, where’s Vera’s win over pretty much anyone?
Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.
by lowellthehammer on Jan 26, 2010 8:33 PM EST reply actions
There’s a perpetual and inane argument within the MMA community about the depth of the heavyweight division inside and outside of the UFC. If there’s any significant advantage to either side (and I don’t think there is), it’s so marginal as to be a worthless talking point.
While it’s true the HW division is shallow, it’s ridiculous to act like the UFC doesn’t have the deepest pool by comparison. It has a top heavy base consisting of several top 10 fighters in Lesnar, Mir, Carwin, Nog, and Cain that is complimented by good prospects (Dos Santos, Duffee, and perhaps Barry), and ‘solid’ veterens (Nelson, Mirko, Gonzaga, and Herring).
There’s nothing “marginal” about that fightline compared to say, Strikeforce, or Dream.
I guess you and I just have different definitions of deep.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Yes, deep by comparison. The HW division is shit, absolutely, but if you were nurturing a young prospect, there’s only place you’d prefer him to go, and it has absolutely nothing to do with “UFC hype”, but everything to do with where he’d get the most thorough MMA experience (which is the UFC).
by David Castillo on Jan 26, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
If you were nurturing a prospect, you’d want him outside of the UFC given your opinion.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I mean “nurture” insofar as whatever allows the prospect to become the best. No other division would sharpen a prospect’s game better than fighting in the UFC (even if the division isn’t “optimal”). It’s unfortunately a double edged sword in the sense that the better prospects perform, the quicker they get brought along, but you’ll find this in any org precisely because of the lack of depth.
by David Castillo on Jan 26, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Shouldn’t this definition of deep be based upon comparing how deep each organization’s talent pool is versus how deep any other pool is? Based upon the graph (thanks) it is obvious that the UFC’s hwt division is not deep, but it is deeper than any other organization’s.
I also look at it as UFC vs. outside of the UFC
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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The problem here is “outside the UFC” is not just one promotion- it’s not like American League or National League, just because a guy is outside the UFC doesn’t mean he is able to fight any other guy that is outside the UFC.
How many guys outside the UFC are tied by exclusive deals that prevent them from taking fights in a variety of orgs?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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That’s not the point, every HW outside the UFC does not have a contract with every promotion other than the UFC.
Sure, but there’s nothing stopping Strikeforce from putting together Jeff Monson vs. Tim Sylvia if that were their inclination.
When I look at the MMA landscape, there’s two different worlds. The UFC, with guys under exclusive contract and centrally planned, and the rest of the world which operates more on a traditional boxing model.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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Who would want to pay for Monson/Sylvia? That is the problem with the talent pool outside of the UFC. There are very few intriguing fights that do not include Fedor, and he only has a few.
Everybody who paid
for UFC 65?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
But there's non-exclusivity and co-promotion.
making it a valid point. Monson is fighting for Shine and Bitetti while under a Strikeforce contract which allows him to go to DREAM who just co-promoted a new years event with Sengoku…
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Scanners
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I can see where DavidAC is coming from...
Not so much as “deep” as much as “less shallow”.
Weight classes like LW (Zuffa and non-Zuffa) are like an ocean, while the HW class as as whole is like a kiddie pool. UFC HW is where the kiddie pool has a slight dip
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
That’s an interesting quote, looking at the top 25 heavyweights 12 are in the UFC and 12 are outside the UFC (one is unsigned which I guess is technically outside), however the largest concentration of top HW’s is undoubtedly in the UFC.
But HW rankings are a mess.
Cain Velasquez has accomplished all but nothing in MMA. He hasn’t touched top 15 competition yet and didn’t even look particularly good against Kongo, getting dropped multiple times and being unable to finish from advantageous position over and over again. Yet he’s frequently ranked top five. It’s not like he was a monster at LHW and moved up, he just has almost no accomplishments in the sport yet.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Is this some allegedly new information?
Heavyweight divisions in most one on one contact type sports have always been relatively shallow. Look at the history of boxing in the heavyweight division. It has always garnered the most attention and money but beyond the 1st 6 or 7 guys the division was always weak, and there has always been a smaller pool. So in MMA it is not really any different. Large men over 6’0 and 200lbs are a minority worldwide and always have been. With the average size historically of men being 5’8, 160lbs.
I would still maintain that the UFC has the most competitive HW division of fighters ready to fight, with no stories or obstacles as do the other organizations. There are several compelling match ups on the horizon there. Where Strikeforce really has a few at best. What other organizations have anything compelling beyond Strikeforce?. I cannot think of anything obvious.
Please do one for Strikeforce. You want to see shallow.
by snakecharmer1340 on Jan 26, 2010 9:39 PM EST reply actions
Here:
Fedor———————Werdum———————Overeem
/
/
Rogers
Keep firing Assholes!
Mind numbing, tedious and ultimately self defeating.
And Overeem would rather wear a Burger King crown than his Strikeforce belt.
by MMAEruption on Jan 26, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
He'd have to fight Roy for the Crown
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
oh my god thank you
“The real point is this: the heavyweight division, as a whole, is incredibly shallow.”
i’ve been shouting this from the rooftops for years now. i hate all the debate about a. how one side of the ufc fence is better than the other and b. fedor gets extra credit for fighting heavyweight fighters much bigger than him.
fedor is an mma god, don’t get me wrong. but in his division he’s not a god among men, he’s a god among fat boys. i agree that it’s a shame that young fighters get thrown to the wolves so early, i don’t think any hw will have the chance to be groomed to beat fedor.
Fedor is fighting in a weaker division. Is he still a god?
by snakecharmer1340 on Jan 26, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
i’d say so. his ability to win and stay ahead of the crowd has been amazing from the beginning of his very long career. it’s one of those cases where it’s not just that he wins, it’s how he wins. he’s proven he’s a complete and virtually unbeatable package.
The guys might not be the best technically but he’s typically taking on opponents much bigger and stronger than him consistently so it cancels out.
Keep firing Assholes!
Mind numbing, tedious and ultimately self defeating.
Cain fights biggger, stronger fighters.... so he should be considered much better?
by snakecharmer1340 on Jan 26, 2010 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
He’s still pretty green, it’s hard to tell. Cain’s GnP is hard to deal with even if he doesn’t have the greatest punching power in the world.
We will know for certain after the Nog fight, which I think Cain will win.
Keep firing Assholes!
Mind numbing, tedious and ultimately self defeating.
I’m still not a believer, but that fight will be a huge test.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 26, 2010 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Nog will be able to deal with Cain’s hyperactive GnP.
Keep firing Assholes!
Mind numbing, tedious and ultimately self defeating.
You don’t think he’ll try to bang with him before shooting? I doubt he’s super excited about being in Nog’s guard.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 26, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think he’ll hang out in Nog’s guard, he’ll hover outside of it and try to pass while throwing punches sort of like Fedor did.
Keep firing Assholes!
Mind numbing, tedious and ultimately self defeating.
Hmm
I don’t see it playing out quite like that. I do think Nog will win. Superior striking, deadly jits, notoriously hard to finish. I can’t imagine how you think a Nog vs Carwin/Lesnar fight would go if Velasquez is gonna be such a problem for him.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 26, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Nog vs. Cain is by far the match im most looking foward to.
Two outcomes.
1. Nog wins: He gets a title shot. JDS waits til next year for his title shot or longer if Nog wins the title.
2. Cain wins: Cain gets a title shot. JDS gets his title shot this year or early next year.
by snakecharmer1340 on Jan 26, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
cro cop and coleman? fat slobs, no. modern mma fighters? no.
the fact they’re in his top four wins proves the types of fighters he’s been facing. top of the division? yes. top of the talent pool? no.
I didn’t say these were his top four wins and if you don’t think beating vintage Cro Cop or Coleman is an accomplishment then I can’t help you because you obviously don’t know much about the sport to begin with.
The CroCop fight was a legitimate top level win
But Coleman had been well exposed by the time he first fought Fedor with losses to Maurice Smith, Pete Willams, Rizzo, Takada and Nogueira. He was by all counts a pretty safe opponent well past his peak. And really, aside from CroCop, Big Nog and Rogers that is the careful way Fedors record has played out. Pick safe opponents that have had several losses and could no longer really fight at the top. I do tip my hat to Fedor for 2 things in the Rogers fight. Rogers was not in that category and was the 1st undefeated opponent Fedor faced, and it was Fedors 1st time in the cage. But in reality, only his 3rd big risk IMHO.
So Arlovski was a safe pick? A fighter that left the UFC on a 3 fight win streak and ranked #5 in the world behind only Big Nog and Couture, and who went on to beat two more top 20 opponents before facing Fedor as the number two ranked HW. In a fight many predicted Arlovski would win. This was a safe opponent?Talk about revisionism. If Arlovski had never been caught by Brett, how many of the same people that now call him a can would be clamoring for him to rematch with Fedor?
by John Nash on Jan 27, 2010 2:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fedor had just beaten a guy
that had beaten Arlovski twice… and Although Andrei had won 3 straight he hadn’t looked like the monster he had previously.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Actually he was on a 5 fight winstreak and ranked #2 on Bloody Elbow
But thats okay you can thank me later.
And yes, a reasonably safe bet after to losing to Silvia twice, Ricco Rodriquez and Pedro Rizzo(all by KO).
by SimplePsych on Jan 27, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
- Prime Cro Cop was top 3 in the world. That is who Fedor beat, not the…thing that fought in the UFC
- Schilt is a decent win (not great, but not a scrub)
- Herring was top 10 in the world at the point for a fair period of time and Fedor murdered him during that time
- Coleman wasn’t a bad win or anything
- He ate Nogueira alive on more than one occasion
- Sylvia was top 10
- Arlovski was top 10
- Rogers was top 10
Revisionist history is fun but you have to count the wins for what they were in the time they happened. Not go “you know what? Cro Cop isn’t good now, so that win is meaningless”
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Rec’d for taking the time to refute one of the dumbest Sherdog-isms.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jan 27, 2010 4:23 AM EST up reply actions
I know it has become an MMA writers cute little catchphrase
But the term “Revisionist History” actually has 2 definitions. The first being the legitimate look at history by scholars and experts, and to specifically downgrade or upgrade a persons(or a country, organization, event) achievements according to not only his great moments, but his low ones that might have happened SINCE. Or visa versa, in that a persons ineptitudes, misdeeds or injustices might be redeemed by events, accomplishments or circumstances that have occurred since.
The other meaning(in modern day terms) is to DISTORT history to discredit one accomplishments. Which does not apply here because we are dealing with fact right?.
So just remember when you use the term “Revisionist history” with Fedor that your actually judging his opponents for what they have done before, AND after. And that is a legitmate historical practice. And is done in all sports.
No, Fedor is not a real Emperor. He is a human too
by SimplePsych on Jan 27, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
neat-o.
However, where a fighter is right now has no bearing on where they were when he fought them.
I still can’t believe George Foreman lost to Muhammad Ali! Ali lost to Trevor Berbick for Christ’s sake!
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Well actually....
“However, where a fighter is right now has no bearing on where they were when he fought them.”
That would fit perfectly into the real Revisionist History definition. It certainly has a bearing, depending on the circumstance.
And it applies perfectly to your poorly placed Paradox. Ali’s historical perspective was not diminished by his later losses to Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick. Because applying “Revisionism” properly. The Boxing historians discovered later by proxy and by medical experts that in fact Ali was in early stages of Parkinson’s disease. And therefore, his status historically has elevated due to this “Revisionist” proclamation far beyond what it was at the time of the last fight with Berbick.
We don’t want to compare Arlovksi with Ali do we?. Lets at least wait 10 years or so and see how the “Revision” applies to him. Somehow I doubt it will be nearly as kind.
Thats what my grad school Professor used to say
He also said I would never finish. But I did!
Nice insult and run tho, Mr Thomas!
When has the UFC’s heavyweight division not been shallow? Technically, we should be calling it “business as usual.”
Who cares? If they can put on one decent heavyweight match on each even then I’m happy. This year we’re getting at least one more Brock fight, Mir vs. Carwin, Cain vs. Nog, Gonzaga vs. JDS. The matchups are just as important as the fighters’ rankings and chances at the belt, IMO.
oooh
But I thought Fedor had to come to the UFC to prove himself… Oh wait there isn’t much there either.
Mike Russow
What’s the deal? He hasn’t fought in over a year. Is he injured? Does he need to get approval with the police force? This guy is great. Him versus Cain would be a wrestler fest.
Does anyone know why he hasn’t fought?
That leaves a very shallow pool of talent for matchmaker Joe Silva to work with. As a result, a prospect like Cain Velasquez, with all of seven professional fights, is thrust into the deep end of the championship pool. And that’s without mentioning Shane Carwin (11 fights), Junior dos Santos (11 fights), and that Brock Lesnar guy (5 fights).
There’s a perpetual and inane argument within the MMA community about the depth of the heavyweight division inside and outside of the UFC. If there’s any significant advantage to either side (and I don’t think there is), it’s so marginal as to be a worthless talking point. The real point is this: the heavyweight division, as a whole, is incredibly shallow.
So wait, Cain is supposed to be less of a threat and quality fighter because he doesn’t have as many fights as say Werdum who he would wreck?. Seriously I know the UFC hate on here runs deep but that is incredible stupid. If you can fight, you can fight it doesn’t matter how many fights you have Cain has proven he belongs in the deep end the idea that somehow that makes the UFC HW division shallow is simply wrong.
Also it’s not a marginal argument the UFC HW division is deeper than it’s ever been and by far the deepest in all of MMA. Combined the HW’s fighting outside UFC don’t measure up to the talent and depth of the UFC HW’s regardless of hwo many fights they have on their resume.
Simply put, you want to fight the best HW’s you come to the UFC. You want to see the best HW match-ups they are in the UFC. You want to see HW mma that matters again it’s all in the UFC, anyway you look at it just like with all the other 4 divisions it’s the UFC number 1 everybody else a very far second place.
Where did he ever say anything about Werdum being better than Cain Velasquez?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
OR...
for that matter where he said he wasn’t a threat or a quality fighter. He simply said that he was thrust into the deep end of the championship pool with only 7 professional fights. He didn’t say “and he’s certainly not good enough” or anything of that nature.
You’re looking for things that aren’t there.
Mikes points were:
- The overall heavyweight talent pool is shallow.
- Cain Velasquez only has seven fights but due to the shallow depth of the division he is in the championship picture.
- There is a very small difference between the depth of the heavyweight division inside of and outside of the UFC.
13 of the top 25 ranked fighters (in the consensus rankings) are outside of the UFC. The top end is mostly in the UFC. The point stands that the difference in inside/outside the UFC in THIS division is relatively small. Which isn’t because the UFC is or isn’t great. It’s because the division…as a whole is less deep than other divisions.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
1. Says who?, I think the HW talent pool is deeper now than it’s ever been it might be shallow compared to the LHW division but so is everyother division imo.
2. No Cain VElazquez is throw in the deep end because of his performances, it doesn’t matter how many fights he has he’s earned his shot at Nog.
3. Again I disagree there is a pretty big difference in talent and skill from the guys in the UFC HW division just like there is in other divisions since they have the best fighters in all of them.
Rankings are useless really we’ve seen how guys outside the UFC shoot up the rankings for doing little while guys in the UFC are usually punished for fighting the best competition. Anyway you look at it, I just don’t see this shallow division that you guys keep portraying years ago yeah this argument held weight now it doesn’t at all.
Okay, that’s fine if you think it’s a deep division. I disagree in that it’s far less deep than the other divisions, but thinking it is deep is fine.
But you didn’t address why you suddenly accused Mike of being a part of some anti-ufc agenda and talked about things like Werdum being better than Velasquez as though Mike said it. Which you didn’t address because…well…because it was just you making shit up.
As for the depth of the division overall. Let’s look at the #11 thru 15 guys in each division just to see how deep it is PAST the top 10:
Heavyweight – Werdum, Arlovski, Gonzaga, Monson, Sylvia (with Monson dropping to LHW add in Antonio Silva)
Light Heavy – Cane, Franklin, Henderson, Babalu, Jardine (if you remove Franklin and Henderson add in Jon Jones and Vera)
Middleweight – Santiago, Lawler, Filho, Bisping, Misaki
Welterweight – Zaromskis, Kampmann, Shields, Hieron, Saunders
Lightweight – Hirota, Griffin, Melendez, Stevenson, Yokota
Featherweight and Bantamweight are both very deep also.
No one is debating that the heavyweight division is better than it was a few years ago. But like anything, it’ll take time to build it up to the depth of the other divisions. AND THAT IS OKAY.
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Considering how many anti-zuffa articles have been coming from this place, honestly it’s hard to tell who doesn’t have an agenda against the UFC here. Though my overall point was more of showing my own frustration with reading articles that have hints of being negative against the UFC while giving other orgs a free pass.
Secondly my point about Cain was that it doesn’t matter how many fights he has, he is a top contender and would wreck alot of higher ranked guys outside the UFC if they fought.
Last looking at those names you posted above, the talent seems to look pretty even to men accross all divisions.
"Seriously I know the UFC hate on here runs deep but that is incredible stupid."
I admit. Something is “incredible stupid” around here, but it’s not Fagan’s post.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
So enlighten me on the fight lines thing here, Dos Santos just beat CroCop but there’s no line to them, is that because CC is partying like 3 levels below him? I understand the loop thing, but this part lost me.
Also, I don’t get why guys with one win over another non-contender are up at the top, since it feels like it’s supposed to be an overall grouping for matchmaking, but we’re not going to see Mir-Madsen any time soon
Dos Santos gets to Cro Cop through Werdum and Gonzaga.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
It’s not for matchmaking or rankings. It’s just a visual representation of who beat who..etc.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 27, 2010 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
The graph can actually be used to aid in matchmaking if you know what you’re looking at.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
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