Teammate vs. Teammate Bouts Remain Unattractive to AKA's fighters
by Leland Roling on Jan 26, 2010 11:10 AM EST
in MMA News
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The UFC's welterweight division has had its ups and downs over the course of the last few years. At one point, many fans, including myself, had a very pessimistic outlook on the division's future as current champion Georges St. Pierre had taken out Jon Fitch, Thiago Alves, and B.J. Penn in title defenses. He'll fight in his fourth straight defense on March 27th against Dan Hardy in a battle that many fans see as another destructive win for the champion.
Unfortunately for fans, there aren't too many options left for Georges St. Pierre. Jon Fitch will likely be the next title contender if he can defeat Thiago Alves at UFC 111, but a case could be made for Josh Koscheck if he manages to defeat power-punching British striker Paul Daley at UFC 113. And of course, the challenger for the contender spot in Mike Swick will also be in the mix with a couple of victories. Are we sensing a trend?
Recently on MMAWeekly.com radio, Mike Swick talked about the possibility of teammate vs. teammate match-ups happening in the UFC's welterweight division, and as expected -- he wasn't optimistic of it happening:
Swick believes right now the cons far outweigh the pros in a situation pitting one AKA fighter against another. He says the gym would face choosing sides, which is never a good place for a team.
"Right now it's a lose-lose. They've been asking us for over a year, maybe a year, year and a half, and we've never had to fight each other," Swick commented.
"Say we say we want to fight each other or something, now all of a sudden we have this tension between us and we're a direct result of each other. We're the fighters we are because of each other. So we don't want that tension in the gym of Koscheck calling me out, or saying he's going to beat me up, or Fitch saying he's going to beat Kos up or something like that."
To be perfectly honest, I'm a bit tired of the logic here. While I understand that camps within the structure of the sport work as a family, this is still a business. The only reason we haven't seen AKA teammates battle each other is because the division has such a dominant champion in Georges St. Pierre. Take him out of the equation, and we may have potentially had the Josh Koscheck vs. Jon Fitch showdown a couple of years ago.
In any case, Swick pushes the same statement. They won't be fighting each other anytime soon. Unfortunately for AKA, it's going to happen eventually. After Fitch's recent performance against Mike Pierce and Swick's loss to Hardy, I'm much higher on Josh Koscheck being the eventual contender and top dog out of AKA than anyone else.
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This could definitely be an issue some day, however...
the AKA guys have managed to fail just often enough to ensure that they don’t log jam the top of the division completely.
by Razreshat on Jan 26, 2010 10:34 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Like the article says, it works for them to refuse to fight each other now, because as long as GSP holds the belt they can theoretically take turns at their title shots. As soon as GSP is gone there’ll be a power vacuum, and the AKA guys will quickly turn on each other. I’d say the safe bet is that Koscheck will be the first to turn on his teammates.
Honestly, that traingle really only has 2 legs...
I don’t see Swick doing well if they decided to have a round robin AKA tournament.
who’s to say these guys will even still be at the top of the heap by the time GSP leaves the WW division. They’re all 31, 3 years older than GSP. It seems like GSP will probably leave WW sometime in 2011, who’s to say there won’t be new kings of the hill instead of the AKA guys
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
It is an issue where rankings are concerned and when it comes to putting on fights. However, I don’t see Fitch vs Kos vs Swick vs Fitch as very appealing fights. I find the AKA vs ??? much more compelling, kind of like the old Chute Box days. Just my opinion…
by ultimatefightsource on Jan 26, 2010 10:45 AM EST reply actions
I don’t. I think Koscheck vs. Fitch could be very good.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jan 26, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
And despite Swick being the AKA to talk about this the most, or at all...
that is the fight that would likely be forced to happen.
It very well may be, but it just has that Rashad vs Thiago feel to it. 2 very good fighters, but just doesn’t get me overly excited. I just don’t think these are fights that need to happen. Now, if you want to talk Lyoto vs Anderson, there you have something!
by ultimatefightsource on Jan 26, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
and again, just my opinion. I certainly understand how it may be more appealing to other fans.
by ultimatefightsource on Jan 26, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Downside of teams in MMA...
People who train together can’t fight. This is a recipe for boring fights. You can say its a business, but at the end of the day, these guys cause bodily harm to each other for a living. Not something you want to do to a teammate/training partner. Some might say friends in other sports compete against each other, but its a different situation. These friends don’t practice together and except for boxing, don’t beat the hell out of each other.
In the spirit of compromis...
I have finally found a use for San Do! Fitch vs Kos vs Swick.
From now on whatever event I am planning will be know as the ‘Bas Rutten Invitational ____’
by beery_pbr on Jan 26, 2010 10:45 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Sorry to sidetrack a bit from your topic Leland, but how does the WW division play out with the upcoming top contender fights?
Koscheck-Daley is supposed to be the next #1 contender fight. If Daley wins that is a pretty easy sell for the next contender for GSP. If Kos wins, it’s been enough wins and enough time for Kos to earn a rematch.
Fitch-Alves. These are the #2 and #3 ranked WWs in the world. If Fitch wins, then I think he’s earned another title shot, but will have to sit on the sidelines a while to wait for Kos-Daley to get the shot first. If Alves wins, what does the UFC do with him? He can’t have a rematch this soon. But who would the UFC match him against in the meantime?
I’m going to bet that a Fitch win secures him in contendership. But if Koscheck ends Daley’s night in impressive fashion… it’ll be one of those Maynard-Edgar situations.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jan 26, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
What do you think the UFC would do with the guy who is passed over for the title shot? Would they just have that guy wait it out for the next shot after that, or do they find another fight for him in the meantime, keeping him busy, but jeapordizing his title shot? The latter scenario is more difficult, because even finding an opponent that makes sense could be difficult.
by Hardcharger on Jan 26, 2010 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Think Kenny Florian.
He had to wait almost a whole year for BJ to return and defend the title, and he took a competitive and dangerous fight (on paper, so we thought) against Joe Stevenson to stay busy, hold his ranking, and confirm his contendership.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Condit maybe?
I would have said Paulo Thiago if he hadn’t already fought Fitch. Beyond that, it comes down to Kampmann, Saunders, or Almeida if he looks good at his WW debut. Going down a run would be the winner of Rumble vs. Doomsday. None of those are easy fights, although the last is clearly the least competitive.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
My money is on Kos getting the next shot...
simply because I think his up coming fight is better set up to provide him with an impressive win and momentum. Additionally, his loss to GSP was pre-championship and easier to forget about.
Where as Fitch’s victory against Alves is much less predicatable and has the distinct possibility that it won’t provide a high light reel, momentum gaining energy.
I don’t think it’s worth the fight to force them to fight each other at this point, but I also think that only one of these three fighters can ever be lined up for a title shot at a time, and I don’t think the other two fighters have any right to complain about that.
If one of them wants to jump over another one of them for a title shot, fight them and take the title shot from them. They also can’t complain if someone from outside of AKA beats one of them and jumps up to contendership.
by Phildo on Jan 26, 2010 11:07 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
While I understand that camps within the structure of the sport work as a family, this is still a business
in a business, both sides have things they want. the UFC doesnt want them to fight for the sake of fighting, they want to make money off swick vs kos. but for these team mates, its good for business not to fight the guy who helped get you to where you are today and will help you get to where you want to be tomorrow. simply saying “its business” does not excuse poor business practices. to force your employee to do something he feels is detrimental to himself and his career for the sake of profitability, is, poor business.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jan 26, 2010 11:08 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
It’s not just business reasons though, there are sporting reasons.
Fitch is ranked 2, Kos 4, Swick 6. Those people should fight. It’s not fair to everyone else in the rankings for 3 of the top 6 fighters to not fight each other, and just move up to a title shot as GSP picks them off one by one.
Dana shouldn’t (and probably won’t) threaten to cut them for not fighting each other, but he can, and probably should apply pressure through offering less than stellar matchups and holding off title shots, because team or no team, you have top fighters not wanting to fight other top fighters.
i couldnt imagine it being entertaining in the least. i’ve rolled with my brother 10,000 times. it takes forever to find an opening, he knows all my tricks and i know all his. it’s boring to anyone looking on. when we only get to see these guys fight 2-3 times a year, do we really want to blow one of the fights on what would probably be epically boring?
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
That’s why I think they have to do it by offering other shitty matchups and holding off on title shots.
They are among the best in the division, if they want to prove they are the best, they need to fight and beat other top fighters. If they don’t want to do that, then they don’t want to be the best, and they shouldn’t be getting title shots.
Swick is the third leg
I honestly believe Swick is the weakest of the three. However in truth I see none if them having anything for GSP. He destroyed both guys at AKA he fought and beat them at their own game convincingly. Kos is the dude to break the AKA team mate code in my opinion. Maybe they are being really smart and holding out for a big payday. Then again how did holding out work for Fitch. I think money talks with Kos. one last thing that comes to mind is they all know each other so well it could be a really boring fight.
even kos thinks swick is the third leg
swick is average. we all know it. kos said hardy had fought nobody before correcting himself.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Jan 27, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
The sooner this silly issue of not fighting “teammates” is dealt with, the better for the fans.
This is an individual sport. You are a professional. There are no “teammates” in MMA.
by Dlanor A. Knox on Jan 26, 2010 11:27 AM EST reply actions
I still like to bring up the heel hook example, say you got your friend in a heel hook, to win the fight you may have to possible end his career. I don’t want to be in that situation. Of course I always wonder how good of friends are these teammates, do they hang out, talk about personnel issues, go do random things together,etc. I mean close friend and my bro, are different things.
If you can’t deal with that situation then you can’t call yourself a professional fighter. Simple as that.
I’m glad someone like Dana White is at the head of UFC because you know he’ll have the balls to take something like this head on when the time comes. We came close with Tito-Chuck and there was a little Sabre-rattling about Evans-Jardine, but sooner rather than later we’re gonna have a situation thats going to be the test case for how this “teammate” nonsense is dealt with. I’m hoping that a strong precedent will be set that the best fighters fight the best fighters, no matter if they hate each other or love each other.
by Dlanor A. Knox on Jan 26, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah dude, Dana needs to take a stand on the best fighters fighting the best!
Of course the AKA guys don’t want to fight each other, they are friends and business partners, but sometimes the sport and competition is more important than business. I demand Fitch vs. Kos, they are top 4 in their weigh class and need to fight each other regardless of their business ties. And lets see that number 2 lightweight fight the number 1! Or, the biggest fight in MMA, Fedor vs. Lesnar! It’s shitty for business, but just like you said, Dana will have the balls to take this on and make the best fight the best, no matter what!
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Your passive-aggressiveness and unrelated tangents aside, I don’t care how you try to pretty up the ties between fighters whether its being “friends,” “teammates” or “business partners”; they shouldn’t preclude them from fighting each other, especially at the top of the division. That’s the meaning of being a professional.
There is no real room for debate on this issue.
by Dlanor A. Knox on Jan 26, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not being passive aggressive at all. It's crunchy sarcasm with a chewy aggression center!
And yeah, there’s plenty of room for debate. Kos, Fitch, and Swick are business partners. They pay each other for the service of training with each other. American Kickboxing Academy is a business that profits based on these men working together to train. For them to fight each other is bad business, but you are saying it doesn’t matter because the best should fight the best. Well, fine, but lets follow it to the logical conclusion. If business is always secondary to sport, then the UFC should co-promote with M1 because the best need to fight the best. If Dana is the man you say he is, who can and will stand up and force the best fights to happen no matter what, then the logical conclusion is to make his own sacrifices to secure the biggest fights.
And by the way, you aren’t allowed to randomly move the goalposts on what a professional is.
pro⋅fes⋅sion⋅al [pruh-fesh-uh-nl]
professional
–noun
10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions.
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional.
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.
All the members of AKA are learned in combat sports, earn a living in a field which has amateur competition, and are experts in their field being ranked numbers 2, 4, and 6 at their weight class.
But hey, who am I, right? You’re welcome to argue with Fitch about it, call in to a radio show when him, Kos, or Swick are guests. And if want to tell Shogun he’s not a professional for not fighting his own brother and Wanderlei, be my guest. You’ll be greeted with hearty laughter.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Main Entry: 1pro·fes·sion·al
Pronunciation: \prə-ˈfesh-nəl, -ˈfe-shə-nəl\
Function: adjective
Date: 1606
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession
Dueling dictionary nonsense and illogical appeals aside, you’re implicitly arguing that fighters ducking fights with each other to protect their reputation and hence their profits is an acceptable practise. I disagree.
by Dlanor A. Knox on Jan 26, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
You were using it as a noun
and redefining what it meant, so I reminded you of the noun definition. You’re being irrelevant.
Not to mention that I’m not saying anything about ducking fights. If Koscheck has a fight coming up, then he pays Fitch to be a training partner. If Koscheck is fighting Fitch, he will not be able to hire Fitch as his training partner. This is particularly an issue at AKA where there are some unusual deals worked out since the head trainer is also the manager of everyone in the gym.
Either way, I don’t need the immanent critique here. I’ll just come out and say it. You and everyone who believes this argument are like a selfish, entitled pricks. The fighters have no obligations to you. If you want to boycott any fight of theirs until the fight each other then go right ahead. You will be missed.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
“Function: adjective”
It doesn’t get any simpler than that.
As to your other point, I don’t have any obligations to the fighters, and the fifty bucks I pay every month isn’t for a fighter’s charity, it’s for a fighting promotion. Nothing more needs to be said.
by Dlanor A. Knox on Jan 26, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
Will AKA be forced to match-up teammates in the future?
You can ask for my opinion but I still can’t tell the future (see my mmaplayground stats).
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
What happens if GSP ever loses or moves to MW?
They have to fight each other.
While Kos seems to be next if he wins, I’d much rather see him get a shot over Fitch, who is boring as hell and had trouble with Pierce, Kos is big, strong, great wrestler adn has powerful hands, if he can beat Daley he def should get next, Fitch is boring and nobody wants to even see him fight most of the time, and with Kos being from TUF and talking shit, the pre fight hype with him and GSP would be something that would sell the fight.
But what if Daley wins?
If Daley wins, then Fitch gets it? Though if Daley can knock out Kos, that would be 3 big knock outs in a row, now some would say its not enough yet, he has to pay more dues, some would say he lost to Jake Shields, but if he can knock Kos out, why couldnt Daley get a shot?
Daley could easily knock GSP out I think, the question is can he do it before GSP takes him down. Cause you know thats coming and thats GSP strength and we saw Jake sub Daley, so his ground game aint great.
But Kos/Daley is gonna be a hell of a fight. I think the winner of that fight should get the next title shot.
Daley getting a title shot will basically be the exact same situation as Hardy getting a title shot.
Agreed
IF Daley KO’s KOS then he’ll get a title shot for sure in my opinion. Hardy did and he only had 1 KO in those 4 fights.
A matchup between GSP and Daley would be huge for the UFC. Even more so if GSP destroys Hardy.
If they want to keep fighting in the UFC, they'll eventually have to fight each other.
Honestly, the AKA situation will sort itself out as soon as GSP moves up to MW, which I suspect will be sometime by the end of this year. At any rate, I think Swick is on the short end of the AKA stick. Fitch will grind him out and Kos will run through him.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
I don't think Swick has to worry about it.
Are Swick and most people overlooking Paulo Thiago?? He gave Fitch a tough fight and Im not sure if Swick will even get past him…
Actually, I’ve thought about that. I think Paulo Thiago has a more than 50% shot at beating Swick.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jan 26, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
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