UFC 109 Preview: Randy Couture Is Training Catch Wrestling to Prepare for Mark Coleman
by Kid Nate on Jan 21, 2010 3:35 PM EST
in MMA Technique
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Michael David Smith picks up on the following:
"I'm working on my ground fighting with Neil Melanson, doing a lot of catch wrestling," Couture says. "Moving away from a jiu jitsu mentality, looking more through my wrestler's eyes, catch wrestling and submissions as they come from wrestling positions, which has been a lot of fun for me, and that's been an ongoing process for the last seven or eight months."
What does this mean exactly?
Well Catch Wrestling is the traditional British/American submission style, based on western wrestling. Here's from Wikipedia:
Catch wrestling is a style of Folk wrestling made popular in the late 19th century by the wrestlers of traveling carnivals who incorporated submission holds, or "hooks", into their wrestling to increase their effectiveness against their opponents. The style derives from a number of influences, most significantly the regional styles of Europe such as English Lancashire wrestling and the Irish Collar-and-elbow, and styles of the Indian subcontinent such as Pehlwani and Iranian styles such as Varzesh-e Pahlavani. The training of some modern submission wrestlers are founded in Catch wrestling.
Exponents of Catch wrestling have been going up against judoka/jiu jitsu players since the early part of the 20th century, including this famous 1921 bout.
Josh Barnett and Eddie Bravo have debated the theoretical superiority of the two submission styles and essentially I think the difference comes down to this -- there's no guard in catch wrestling. While they still emphasize positional control, it's the kind of control that allows a fighter to retain top position at all costs, like in an amateur wrestling match.
Read more about the history of American Catch Wrestling in Mark Hewitt's great book.
Photo by Sherdog.
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I have my money on the Crossface Chickenwing
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Interesting that Barnett’s recent victory isn’t included in this.
by Simco on Jan 21, 2010 3:58 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
In the early days BJJ was all about position before submission. You could watch any early tapes and see that. Mount was frequently described as the place you wanted to be. It was Catch wrestling that was described as going for the submission first.
Now all of a sudden people think BJJ is all about hanging out on the bottom? Weird.
that's a good point
I should’ve said BJJ is about the mount and the guard — utterly dominant control positions but ones that allow for reversal of who’s on top and who’s on bottom.
wrestlers don’t like the mount for a number of reasons, but the ease with which it can be reversed is one of them — there’s also the part about wrestling matches ending at the pin and if you get mount, you’ve got the pin.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
More than the fear of reversals,
the mount position is just too hard to maintain against a well-conditioned opponent. If you’ve got them hurt, and broken, then it becomes a lot easier to keep the position, but I had many matches in wrestling where the guy went for a ride (mount) and it was just too easy to buck him off and get to a scramble.
Also, wrestlers aren’t really used to finishing matches. It doesn’t enter the thought process all that often, especially at the highest levels, but even good high school coaches will pound anti-finishing mantras into their wrestlers. The mentality is more about domination and control than an easy/quick finish. So guys get used to working lots of ‘turtle’ and side control positions, both on top and on bottom.
Wrestling really does create a different mentality from the other combat arts. There is the equivalent of the KO in wrestling (the pin), but while it’s highly prized and valued, the best wrestlers never go out there looking for it. It’s all about domination. It’s hard to dominate from a position that is easily lost or, as you said, reversed.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
disagree
the best wrestlers are always working for the pin
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
We may have different backgrounds,
but my own experiences in high-level camps, and working with a dozen or so different coaches who consistently produced state champions at the high school level, taught me that working for the pin is the wrong way to go about your business.
Working for domination in every aspect of the game will result in a pin if there’s a talent disparity (or even a stylistic mis-match), but if the talent is equal, you have to have the type of mindset where you stick your nose in there and grind for six minutes.
Regardless of whether or not you agree with that particular statement, there isn’t really any debating that the iron will wrestlers possess is one of the main assets they rely upon when entering the MMA scene. In my own experience, the aforementioned mentality is a huge contributor to developing and maintaining this asset.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I don't think most people think of BJJ as just hanging from the bottom,
but it is the position from which we see the most submission finishes. And while there are plenty of lay’n’pray wrestlers out there, there are at least as many (percent-wise) BJJ guys who just lay there waiting for a quick submission (meaning, waiting for their opponent to make a foolish mistake, like Brock vs. Mir I).
Active BJJ fighters are great to watch, just like active wrestlers are great to watch. Nobody likes watching boring fights, and predictability is also pretty dull. I think the reason we haven’t seen catch wrestling at the highest levels in quite awhile is because the guys who have the wrestling pedigree to make it to the top of the heap are more content to fight without using volatile moves, preferring to control opponents and grind them down.
I think where BJJ falls short is in the second-tier positions, like half-guard or side-mount. Wrestlers have more comfort and ability in those positions, so when it’s good wrestler vs. good BJJ guy, the fight rarely goes to full guard or mount. Positional control is still pretty disparate across the many grappling styles, with wrestling maintaining an overall edge.
I’m still waiting for a truly forward-thinking BJJ school to start incorporating more wrestling and transition techniques from the less dominant positions. That would drive the entire MMA ground game forward quite a bit.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I like your breakdown..
this is where i differ tho
first most people DO think BJJ is just hanging from the bottom.. why? because of announcers and your right in a way from the fact that some of the signature jitz moves happen their.
but for the most part finishes happen in mma jitz just as much if not more from the other positions. ie kimura from side mount, rnc from rear, head and arm from a guard pass, darce. the top 3 of 5 dont come fromt the guard.
as far as second tier positions go.. bJJ is TOP of the food chain in breaking down positions intimately.. thats why it takes so long to learn.
the reason you dont see as active of a half guard as normal is that in MMA there are strikes. half guard is only a good position on the bottom IF it is sport jiu jitsu or your damien maia. originally in Gracie jj they didint teach much sweeps or anything from the half guard. in the end it did make alot of sense. because there became a big disparity between top bjj grapplers not being able to use their favorite positions ie x guard deep half guard
if anything BJJ has a much deeper sub-positional game than any other MA or sport.. but positions are abreviated and added to when you take a way a gi, and add strikes.
if anything wrestlers USE bjj to actually make sound technical transitions in MMA and if they didnt learn those positions and techniques … they would get owned HARD.
ie in wrestling guys dont only turtle,, but go face down on the mat flat.. and turn to run after getting hit in a deep tD. if anything wrestling needs jiu jitsu ..
.. gracies already took everything they thought was needed from wrestling way back when… why do you think bjj guys pratice doubles,, singles (but not to the outside) ,, but we dont practice dirty singles? because it was already determined long ago that which TD work best in a real fighting enviroment.
my disclaimer
Well thought-out response.
I have to say though, the proof is in the pudding, and wrestlers simply out-class judoka, BJJ practitioners and pretty much everyone else in overall transitions, and it’s been that way since high level wrestlers have participated in MMA.
BJJ did take everything they thought they needed to form the Perfect Combat Art, and they did…but that was a long time ago. Their sport has evolved (and devolved, as all specialized sports are known to do) for generations away from the base components they combined to create their style. Same with wrestling.
We see it time and time again, but who wins the takedown game, the wrestlers or the BJJ fighters? Wrestlers every time. Who wins in attaining and maintaining dominant positions during grappling scrambles post-takedown, wrestlers or BJJ fighters? Again, wrestlers every time. You never see a wrestler consistently lose position to a BJJ fighter, and I think the reason for that is because the BJJ guys are simply so confident in their abilities from pretty much every position, they don’t feel like they need to put in work on transitions. You alluded to that with your correct assertion that they are masters of each individual position.
The problem is that a wrestler won’t put the fight in a place where he is at a disadvantage (full guard top, full mount bottom, side mount bottom) not simply because he’s at a disadvantage there, but because he can’t consistently implement his gameplan from those positions.
I like your breakdown, but the ultimate issue remains unscathed, in my opinion. Wrestlers control where the fight happens. BJJ fighters practice each individual position to perfection, which creates a truly false sense of security, prompting them to ‘lay in wait’ for the mistake too many times.
In the MMA world, BJJ as it is currently applied, is generally a passive style. There are monsters who use it hyper-aggressively, but in general, it is a passive/defensive style. When they learn to incorporate stronger transitions, they’ll have a chance to re-assert themselves as the dominant grappling form. For now, they have too much trouble getting to their best positions.
Great post, waldog.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I forgot to address a great point you made.
You’re pretty much right that wrestlers need BJJ practice in order to not get pwned in the submission game, but it’s a little different than you might think.
Wrestlers only have to learn “What will my opponent try to do to me if I am in this position, or if I perform this particular maneuver,” and once he answers those questions, he makes minor adjustments to the maneuver, or throws it out entirely so that he’s no vulnerable to those techniques and attacks.
It’s different with BJJ, I think (not being a pure BJJ practitioner myself, I’d love to hear from someone who has extensive experience with both wrestling and BJJ on the subject). BJJ fighters know they’re dangerous everywhere, because they can pull 2-3 subs from every position, and more from the key positions like guard and mount. The problem is, if their opponent isn’t playing the submission game, and only looking to avoid being submitted, it can really tie the BJJ fighters hands behind his back. As yet, BJJ fighters haven’t really learned how to (for lack of a better word) wrestle their way out of the second tier positions and get into more dangerous ones. I do think this will change as the sport continues to grow and evolve, and I’m anxious to see who makes the change first. Someone like Frank Mir is in a perfect position to attempt this, as are the Brothers Nogueira, with their prominent positions in the MMA community and their great BJJ backgrounds.
BJ Penn is probably as good as any BJJ-first fighter at incorporating those elements into his game, in a ‘wrestling in reverse’ fashion, keeping his feet in all of his fights, disallowing his opponents to take the fight somewhere he has a disadvantage. I just don’t see him being the leader of a BJJ revolution.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Well there are some exceptions to that.
Paulo Thiago tooling Jacob Volkmann, Big Nog reversing and controlling Randy and GSP vs everyone (a freak of nature I know)…. BJ Penn… you get the point.
I agree with your assessment though. A lot of BJJ players just accept the bottom because they theoretically aren’t helpless there. That is why I appreciate guys like Jake Shields and what they do.
Well, isn't that cute? BUT ITS WRONG
Coleman is going to win by superior strength and wrestling combined with an improved gas task from having a real training camp.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha no
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
by mma is #1 on Jan 21, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ive only been really into MMA for a couple years, so stuff like this is REALLY interesting to me. Hopefully in a couple more years Ill know enough to join in the debate. Also, Im super tired of Randy and Id like to see him lose.
"He will lie between resentment and regret. He shed his grace. As certain as a snake sheds its skin. Laid waste to a wealth of talent--his curse being blessed with treasures that just were not gold enough"
by ProfessorBLove on Jan 21, 2010 10:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I got a sweet idea
Josh Barnett vs Randy Couture to find out who the best heavyweight catch wrestler is. Book it!
Barnett knocked Couture out back in 02 …. and Couture isnt a catch wrestler.
by ThereWlLLbeBlood on Jan 21, 2010 11:53 PM EST reply actions
another fight where barnett juiced.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Hahahaha
He ran to Japan after that fight for a reason
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Jan 22, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
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