Tearing Down Josh Gross' Latest Article
Josh "Negative Nancy" Gross' latest article is out there making some waves. Kid Nate calls it "compelling." The commenters are basically calling it poop. I call it full of holes, but let me give you my reasons in my break-down of Josh's work.
I understand the difference between journalism and commentary, but Josh ignored something vitally important regarding business: the proof is in the pudding.
Anyone can throw out coulds and shoulds and what-ifs but no rational person can dispute that in its current state, the UFC is incredibly successful, and by all indications, highly profitable. Josh's lack of appreciation for this point makes his article lame.
Frankly, any editor with knowledge of MMA would have sent this back to him requesting MANY revisions, as many of Josh's assumptions and predictions don't jive with reality.
Josh is in the highlighted text, I'm in plain text. Game on!
UFC president Dana White may have prophesied that his company will drive MMA to become the biggest sport in the world by 2020, but there aren't any guarantees its rise will continue at all, let alone at the rate it has since 2005.
Dana White is a PROMOTER and thus prone to hyperbole. There's no reason to pretend that you don't get that.
Nothing grows in a straight line. Every business, no matter how fast-growing it is, has its ups and downs, including revolutionary world leaders like Google. It's completely normal for things to slow after a period of hyper growth, such as the post TUF-1 boom. And think about all the crazy stuff that happened in MMA in 2009. Dying promotions, crazy injuries, Rampage in the movies, etc. The post-injury rebound alone could help the UFC, and thus the sport, generate significant growth in the second half of 2009.
Concerns of oversaturation on American television will be met head on in 2010.
There is some oversaturation of UFC PPV events. I think we can all agree on that. But the numbers still look pretty damn good, don't they? More often than not, the numbers are defying skeptics, including yours truly. But free MMA on TV doesn't hurt anything. In fact, it increases the growth potential of the sport because more people can be reached.
The impact of collective bargaining for fighters could begin to play out in a real way.
Actually, it can't without the cooperation of the sport's biggest stars, who need it the least. Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz were outspoken about fighter pay and treatment - until they signed their big fat new contracts with Zuffa, LLC. Randy's sh*t-eating grin at the UFC 102 press conference said it all. Nothing changes until a bunch of the big boys refuse to fight, and that aint happening.
A dire need for competent regulation and judging is underscored each time fighters step in the cage.
I will agree on this point - the sport needs to do a better job of recruiting and training judges and refs. It would also be nice to find a doctor that can detect major injuries BEFORE a guy gets into the cage.
And on the home front, a promotional war between the UFC and Strikeforce is likely to intensify.
It's not much of a war. Strikeforce still doesn't have enough fighters to fill out all of their cards, and their belts are relatively meaningless. I hear that Mousasi uses his belt to prop up his coffee table.
Between Spike TV, HDNet, Showtime, Versus, CBS, Fox Sports and pay-per-view, MMA fans will have the ability to watch more than 100 live fight cards in 2010.
Seriously, as long as there are plenty of free fights, where's the problem? If promotions lose money showing fights, they'll simply cut back.
I've often wondered about the point of it all if the game isn't rooted in seeing the very best fight the very best. How much longer will mixed martial arts remain palatable to Americans if the premise is skewed more toward watching a good fight, rather than determining who's No. 1?
The fact that the sport is rooted in "watcing a good fight" is actually beneficial to the sport's long-term health. It's good for people to attach themselves to the sport just as much as the athletes. It keeps them watching. There were probably just as many Mike Tyson fans as boxing fans in the 1980's. But who's still watching boxing today? (no jokes, it's too easy!)
The way the sport is structured, with UFC running as its own independent "league" -- though that's hardly the word for it -- too many important fights are in jeopardy of not getting made. Plenty do, of course. But we've already seen several major matchups get tossed aside, such as Fedor Emelianenko vs. Randy Couture, and, down the road, perhaps B.J. Penn against Shinya Aoki. There's little reason to believe that won't be a trend.
Yes, it would be nice to see Fedor and BJ destroy Randy and Aoki, but exclusivity also has its benefits. UFC-signed guys don't waste time fighting freakshows in Japan when they could be battling legit contenders. UFC fighters also don't ignore their belts (cough, Overeem, cough) Of course there are matchups I'd like to see that can't happen, but I can live with it.
In the beginning, White and Lorenzo Fertitta spoke of ensuring that the best fights were made, and spoke highly of the idea of co-promotion. Not anymore. Now they consider the idea counter to everything they hope to accomplish.
And what did co-promotion ever give the UFC? The UFC put then-rising star Chuck Liddell in the 2003 Pride Middleweight Grand Prix and got NOTHING in return. Again, Josh is making himself looking extremely biased by not listing the many benefits of a closed promotion.
Where has it led us? An increasing pattern of championship fights with contenders perceived to be weak. That may be a result of dominant champions planting themselves at the top, but it could also be the start of a disappointing trend.
Yes, some guys, like BJ, Anderson, and GSP look unbeatable now. But so did Lyoto Machida until his run-in with Shogun. New contenders will slowly emerge, and all three of the UFC's dominant champions could move up in weight class, where they could face greater challenges.
And is it the UFC's fault that these guys are so damn good? What do you want? Maybe Dana White should tell GSP to only go for three takedowns per fight to give the other guy a shot at winning?
Have you heard the complaints about Frankie Edgar challenging Penn ahead of Gray Maynard, who defeated Edgar? (Many fans say it doesn't matters much, as neither guy has a chance against Penn.)
And those many fans are right. Aoki is an interesting opponent but BJ is likely to crush him. And if the UFC ever did co-promote, it wouldn't be for a guy like Aoki!
With major organizations such as Strikeforce and Dream proponents of making fights across promotional lines, 2010 will be a true test as to which business model is better for the sport.
No it won't. The UFC has already proven that it has the best business model in the history of the sport. And as others are pointing out, where did co-promotion get boxing? Cough, epic Floyd/Pac-Man fail, cough...
I'm firmly in the camp that co-promotion makes sense. MMA is an individual sport. Is it realistic to think any one entity will control every top fighter?
And yet co-promotion failed in boxing, and hasn't worked in MMA either. The answer is obviously no because Fedor doesn't care about the UFC, and there are enough good guys that don't feel compelled to sign. But the UFC doesn't need every top fighter - it just needs to consistently put on good fights.
Is it fair to tell a mixed martial artist he or she must be attached to a specific promoter in order to be considered the best?
No, but the reality is that the UFC has more top fighters under exclusive contract than any other promotion, and the #1 fighter in each of 4 weight classes. You want to be considered the best, you fight the best. That means the UFC.
Certainly there are flaws to co-promotion. Reputations, big money and egos often get in the way. But it allows for the possibility of important fights fans want to see. If the demand is high enough, things will get done unless the people doing business are suicidal.
Agreed, there are flaws to co-promotion, just like there are many many benefits to having control under one roof. The more @ssholes in a room, the more messed up things become. You know what's great about having two guys controlling the UFC, and by default, much of MMA? $hit gets done.
Unfortunately, as Mike Brown knows, the standard is different in MMA. Winning isn't enough, or at least it isn't always important enough in determining who gets what. Urijah Faber will fight Jose Aldo in April or May because the WEC feels he's more marketable. Apparently, it doesn't matter that Faber is 0-2 against Brown. Perhaps that's residue from MMA's early roots in the U.S. as a pay-per-view spectacle, or the conflation between sport and pro-wrestling in Japan (and the U.S., too, in recent years). Regardless, determining the best must supplant entertainment if MMA is going to be as relevant as it should.
I agree that Faber does NOT deserve the title shot, but let's face facts: MMA is just as much entertainment as it is sport. Hardcore MMA fans will watch pretty much whatever's thrown at the wall. Casual fans, however, have a much greater chance of being reached by a 'marketable' guy like Faber.
*****************************
I'm done.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
122 comments
|
9 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
It’s pretty obvious that Josh Gross is a big MMA writer because he got in at the beginning, not because he is smart or knows anything about business.
Also we should start an online movement that encourages Josh Gross to just shave it off already because he isn’t fooling anyone. If there is one thing he should learn from Dana, it’s that he needs to shave it off.
by dumbwhiteguy on Jan 15, 2010 5:05 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
As far as I’m concerned, there are only two MMA podcasts worth listening to – Gross Point Blank and MMA Nation.
Not strictly on topic, but still valid.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Jan 16, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I definately listen to Jordan Breen’s weekend previews every thursday. Definately the best way to stay up on all the important regional and international events that go on all the time unnoticed.
Beatdown is pretty good because at least they talk about mma occassionally but anything with Greg Savage and Jeff Sherwood just consists of them talking about football or them playing softball.
"It’s pretty obvious that Josh Gross is a big MMA writer because he got in at the beginning, not because he is smart or knows anything about business."
This is easily the dumbest thing I’ve read on this site in a long, long time.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 17, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
So's your grammar
"The moment you stop thinking you're the best, it's time for you to get out the game." -'King' Mo Lawal
true but making a twitter post on how this is the dumbest thing hes ever read and then saying how that comment is the dumbest thing hes seen posted on this site in a while. Gross’ article was wrong and dumb. Everyone knows co-promotion with m-1 global is not smart. Luke going out of his way to tell people how dumb this article is rediculous and unproffesional. No one is willing to call him out on is becuase hes the “king” of BE.
You are friends with a lot of these MMA writers and I think it hinders your judgment about how dumb they truly are. Because a lot of them(Josh Gross included) are very, very bad.
by dumbwhiteguy on Jan 17, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also I notice that you conspicuously did not quote the part of my post about the movement to get him to shave his head so I’m going to go ahead and assume you agree.
by dumbwhiteguy on Jan 17, 2010 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Since I already made my Josh Gross comments in the article, I’m going to resort to Yo Mama jokes.
Josh Gross’ mama’s cooking is so bad that at their house, they pray after their meal.
Josh Gross’s mama is so bald that when she braids her hair, it looks like stitches.
by dumbwhiteguy on Jan 15, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
Josh Gross’s mama so fat when they hung her picture on the wall it fell down.
by Matthew Roth on Jan 15, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Josh Gross' mama is SO FAT
- she got baptized at sea world
- the only time she sees 90210 is when she steps on the scale
- the only thing that’s attracted to her is gravity
- when she goes to Gap the only thing she can fit into is the Dressing Room
- when her Beeper goes off, people think she’s backing up
- when she sat on a Rainbow skittles fell out
- that she’s on both sides of the family
- she got a new job DJ’ing for the Ice Cream Van
- she uses a bed mattress for a maxipad
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Jan 15, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Josh Gross’ mama so old that when moses parted the red sea he found her on the other side fishing.
Josh Gross’ mama so old she owes Jesus money;
by Matthew Roth on Jan 15, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Update the arsenal, son.
Josh Gross’ Mama is so stupid that she tried to get Bailout Money so she could pay attention.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
His Mama is so fat, after sex she smokes turkey
"In Russia, Hell goes to you!"
Wanderlei: "Me, afraid of Bisping? Stop the jokes!"
by actionbastard on Jan 15, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
I LOL'd
Awesome name by the way.

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Jan 15, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
gotta rec the shin chan
"In Russia, Hell goes to you!"
Wanderlei: "Me, afraid of Bisping? Stop the jokes!"
by actionbastard on Jan 16, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
I want in on this!
Josh Gross’ mama:
-Is so fat she’s not allowed to wear malcolm X jackets cause Helicopter’s keep landing on her back
-Is so fat She rolled over a dollar and made 4 quarters.
-Is so fat when it rains she goes slip n sliding on the freeway
-Teeth are so yellow she spits butter
-Teeth are so yellow the sun gets jealous
-Gums are so black she spits yoohoo
-Is so old she farts dust
-Is so dumb she thought a quarterback was a refund
-Is so tall she did a back and kicked jesus on the chin
"Well... You're damned if you do, and You're damned if you don't."- Bart Simpson
by poundnground on Jan 15, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
By "back" of course I meant "backflip"
"Well... You're damned if you do, and You're damned if you don't."- Bart Simpson
by poundnground on Jan 15, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
It will be interesting to see if he is right about Co-promotion… with the ungodly power he seems to think it has, Strikeforce should reap an overwhelming windfall through using it and the UFC will collapse for avoiding it.
by Stanlee on Jan 15, 2010 5:13 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
This article should have been called:
The Great Josh Gross Turkeyshoot of 2010
Keep firing Assholes!
Melvin Manhoff is my favorite fighter.
I don't think Gross hates ZUFFA
I think he’s just willfully ignorant.
by Chris Barton on Jan 15, 2010 6:23 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
There are too many people who truly hate the UFC.
In their own minds they think “No, I don’t!” They probably even believe it. But they insist that the very principles and practices which have propelled its ridiculous growth and expansion be cast aside so they can see like, what, five or ten fights they consider to be more important than the other stuff they’ve seen in the last six months? Coooommme OOOOOOONNNNNNN!!!!!!! Pull your collective heads out, boyz.
MMA will live and die, as a sport, based on how well one organization does. And we all know that organization is Zuffa. There may come a time, in the long-term future where co-promotion becomes a preferred method, but as the author alluded to above, then you end up with Floyd/Pac happening more often than not, or worse, you end up with Floyd’s career being the best thing going.
The people who call for co-promotion simply want to see Zuffa die. Oh, they still want to watch the UFC, but they want Zuffa neutered to the point where it can no longer propel itself at the upward pace it’s established. Lucky for most of the fans of MMA out here, that’s just not going to happen with Dana and the Fertitas involved.
Thank God for that.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Jan 15, 2010 7:14 PM EST reply actions 10 recs
*Starts Slowly Clapping*
There is nothing more silly than a UFC hater. They claim to love MMA, but hate the company that made it popular.
Instead they imagine Pride was a great promotion that set the standard……now that’s hilarious. At least they’ll always have Jerry Millen to back them up.
by Razzel on Jan 17, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This UFC Hater shit needs to stop.
Was the UFC the primary catalyst that made MMA as big as it is today? No question, but some of us would like to see more. People have different tastes and saying that they hate the UFC because of that is sophomoric.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Jan 17, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Did I say that there are no UFC haters? No
I simply said that calling any and everyone that wants something different a UFC hater, is ignorant.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Did I specify a definition for UFC haters?
You’re a sensitive one aren’t ya?
It doesn’t matter whether you specified a definition for “UFC hater.” You replied to Deo’s statement which implicitly defined the locus of discussion as being about calling someone a UFC hater merely for voicing criticism, and mischaracterized him as saying “there are no UFC haters.” It was intellectually dishonest, dismissive, and disrespectful to his post, and he had every right to respond to you, without being derided as overly sensitive.
Overall, I think that the term “hater” is overused and misused in today’s society. I actually wish it would go away for a while.
by madiq on Jan 17, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I said UFC haters are silly, he implied that I intended UFC haters to mean anyone who voices criticism, I questioned that implication, end of story.
Either way, I just uploaded 10 viruses to both your computers for even having the nerve to argue with me.
That’s how I roll.
I roll with Kaspersky,
Yeen’ got shit for me, son.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
*Shakes Fist in the Air*
Damn you Kaspersky!!!!
Overall, I think that the term "hater" is overused and misused in today’s society
I’ve started to notice a trend on these boards that any argument that can be construed as anti-Zuffa or disagrees with Dana White is debunked by claiming the author is a “UFC hater.” This doesn’t apply to everyone obviously, but seems to be an increasingly common and very annoying occurrence.
Although I suppose admitting its ok to disagree with Zuffa makes me a hater as well.
Dana White is a PROMOTER and thus inherently prone to hyperbole. There’s no reason to pretend that you don’t get that.
This should accompany any article about Dana White’s predictions for PPV’s, when he’s hyping a PPV, etc just so people can’t bitch about how he says every card/ fight is the greatest. Of course they’re the greatest. He’s a promoter.
I appreciate the counter-points made by MMAEruption (I love a good debate) but I don’t think Gross is ill-intentioned. As a journalist, criticizing promoters is part of his job, and obviously most of his critiques will target the number one promotion, simply because it is the number one promotion. And I believe that, like myself, his motivation for critiquing the powers that be is motivated, at heart, by fandom – by love of the sport.
Josh wasn’t acting like a journalist in this article – he was providing commentary, and much of it was completely off base.
The UFC is absolutely, positively not above criticism. But Josh is completely out of touch in this case.
by MMAEruption on Jan 15, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree. Gross was acting like a journalist, he was writing an editorial, not doing factual reporting.
He’s consistently pushed many of those ideas for years and is entitled to his opinion. A lot of those ideas disagree with Zuffa, but that doesn’t necessarily make him a Zuffa hating reporter. And I’m well aware of the animosity between him and Dana White, so I get why people reach that conclusion. I guess his articles don’t bother me as much as they bother others.
With all that said, I agree with your post. There are strong arguments against most of his main points and he really misses the boat on co-promotion and collective bargaining for fighters. Just not well thought out in general.
That was an MMA Eruption.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Best one ever;

Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 15, 2010 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
No arguments with that statement.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
A magical place called the Interwebz
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
I can’t understand why people like Josh still think co-promotion is a good thing when it’s been proven to fail over and over again. Boxing’s demise is rooted in it. For a recent example, you can just look at the failed negotiations between Mayweather and Pacquiao. It was the hopeful fight to bring back boxing, but instead it’s now being called the nail in the coffin. If they both were under the same promotional roof we would be watching one of the most anticipated boxing matches we’ve had in years.
Keeping fighters under one roof is not perfect, but it beats everything he proposes with the same old system that has failed horribly in boxing. Give us something new that might work and then we’ll listen, but don’t try and sell us that same line of shit boxing did.
At this time, I don’t understand the need for the UFC to co-promote especially since the UFC has the majority of the top fighters in every weight Division. I said it in another article, but the main talking point when it comes to the UFC co-promoting is Fedor Emelianenko. Seeing Shinya Aoki, Jake Shields, Marius Zaromskis, Gegard Mousasi, etc.. fighting UFC fighters would be cool, but there really isn’t very much clamor from MMA fans to see anyone else but Fedor fight in the UFC.
We seem to all agree that co-promotion failed in boxing. The only problem is that it's not in any way true.
Every time two fighters with different promoters fight, co-promotion is working. The next big fight on the radar, Mosley vs. Berto, is a co-promotoion. Mosley is with Golden Boy, Berto is with Al Haymon. Very rare in boxing are the fights with two guys both having the same promoter (Cotto vs. Pac being the best recent example).
So “co-promotion in boxing doesn’t work” is bullshit. It works every week. You guys just don’t know about it because nobody gives a fuck about the promoters in boxing (unless some colossal fustercluck like Pac/Mayweather happens.) I look forward to the day in MMA when nobody but the hardest hardcore fans can name a promoter to save their life, either.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 16, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh no, you have the right idea, but the wrong conclusion...
Would you say co-promotion worked in the Pac vs whoever he’s fighting in Texas Stadium?
No, you’d say it was the product of the initial failure no matter if it ends up being a decent fight or not.
Simply put, co-promotion only works if you’re agreeing that it’s primary purpose is acting as a obstacle to the fights people want to see. It basically acts as another layer of negotiation that has to take place to make the fight happen.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
I think the concept of “fights people want to see” is overblown. Promoting is about making fights that are IMPORTANT TO THE SPORT into “fights people want to see.” The reason that Pacquiao-Mayweather is such a big fight in the first place is because of co-promotion, because each guy had promoters telling us that their guy was the best fighter in the world, until eventually, the demand flame was fanned into something casual fans were hyped for.
Also, why is it that negotiating to fight ONE PARTICULAR OPPONENT, at one venue, for one fight, for a predetermined purse split is harder than negotiating to allow a third party promotion to choose your opponents, choose your venues, over multiple fights, while keeping the lion’s share of the purse, and paying you a predetermined amount? Sure, it’s easy if that third party has leverage, and an unequal amount of negotiating power, but the minute you’re dealing with equals (or near equals), you get closer to a stalemate position, and fights can still potentially not get made, because the promotion doesn’t deem it to be in its long-term best interest.
Actually, Clottey and Pac have the same promoter.
So that’s actually an instance where single promotion gave us a crappy fight whereas co-promotion would have given us a good fight.
So what was your point again?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 16, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Do you even see what just happened there?
You actually made his point. Co-promotion failed to give us a good fight, so the promoter had to go in-house to create the best fight possible for the public. I think all of the posters at Bad Left Hook would agree that Joshua Clottey is a FAR better opponent for Pacquiao that anyone not currently under GBP’s banner.
Co-promotion stops fights, it doesn’t create them. It is merely, as Sklz711 said, another obstacle to making fights. It doesn’t help one teeny, tiny, itsy, bitsy, little bit.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Jan 17, 2010 2:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Co-promotion only fails to work when fans allow megalomaniacs like Dana White and Bob Arum to get away with it. If we demand that they work with other promoters to make the best fights possible and refuse to buy PPVs that don’t feature those fights they’ll have no choice but to make fights like Fedor vs. Lesnar and Pac vs. Mayweather.
I reject your assertion that the only working model is for all fighters to enter indentured servitude to one promoter. That’s a recipe for reduced compensation for fighters and bigger houses and nicer cars for idiot promoters. I’ll stop watching both sports before I accept that’s the only way they can work.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 17, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
That's bullshit.
You think there wasn’t enough pressure to make Mayweather vs. Pacman? It is without a doubt the most profitable fight in all of combat sports today, and likely would have been the most profitable of all time. Every boxing journalist wanted that fight. People who don’t know a damn thing about boxing wanted to see it, and would have bought the PPV. They could have had a dog licking his own genitalia as the undercard and nobody but the hardcore fans would complain. That fight would have been the culmination of the gradual revival of boxing. It was the right thing for everybody financially, and it was the super fight the sport needed for it’s resurgence. If that’s not putting pressure on a promoter to make a fight, I have no idea what is.
I’m all for co-promotion when it makes sense. I said in another thread that Bellator/DREAM/SF co-promotion for a unified non-UFC welterweight title would be one of the sickest things MMA can create. This years tourney winner vs. Lyman Good against winner of Diaz vs. Zaromskis / Heiron vs Riggs is compelling as all hell to me. Get Tyrone Woodley two more wins by then and have him challenge the winner… holy shit. Awesome. But you’re spouting shit if you think that fan and media pressure will make Dana, Arum, De La Hoya, or any other promoter work with each other when they don’t feel like it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Hey now, let us give credit where it is do
You originally wrote that we should have this years tourney winner vs. against winner of Diaz vs. Zaromskis / Heiron vs Riggs. I added Lyman Good and Tyron Woodley to the mix.
Huh?
“Co-promotion” by definition does not stop fights. If their is co-promotion, a fight is happening. The inability to make co-promotion happen is what stops fights. Think about it.
Yep
No one notices when co-promotion works, and everyone notices when it doesn’t, so people think it doesn’t work. It’s a simple and common error.
A related point is that boxing fans don’t identify with promoters they way a lot MMA fans do, and so when a big fight in boxing doesn’t get made, you get near universal criticism of that. When big fights don’t get made in MMA, you get a lot of people making excuses for the promoters or fighters. It’s pretty pathetic, actually.
Let’s not forget that two of the biggest events in American sports, the World Series and the Super Bowl, began as a co-promotion between separate sports leagues.
Obviously, there is no MMA organization currently on par with the UFC, but as the sport continues to grow, co-promotion for a couple of cards a year might benefit the sport as a whole. And considering Dana White’s stated ambition, that should be somewhere in Zuffa’s priorities.
And those co-promotions only happened when the two leagues were equal and it was mutually beneficial for both.
There are talks of having a real world series with teams from Japan now also, they aren’t doing it for the good of the sport. They are doing it for money.. Super bowl 1 happened for money. When there is a co-promotion situation that will be mutually beneficial, they will probably take it (like they did with Pride back in the day). We are not at that point right now. Co promotion for the sake of co-promotion is stupid.
I agree that co-promotion for the sake of co-promotion is stupid. However, I was responding to this:
I can’t understand why people like Josh still think co-promotion is a good thing when it’s been proven to fail over and over again.
I know it’s a minority viewpoint, but WEC co-promotion has almost no downside, and had it been implemented in mid-2009, they might have been positioned to use the stars they’ve developed to bolster the UFC 108 card, rather than press forward with their misguided attempt to saturate the PPV marketplace with WEC PPV. Add in the Versus-DirecTV issue, and you’re seeing Zuffa hindering its own attempts to make money by supporting a false segregation, as it tries to develop a brand parity that will never exist.
The conventional wisdom was that SpikeTV had the exclusive rights to UFC on cable, but clearly, with an upcoming card on Versus, that wasn’t the case. That means that we could have seen a convergence this year with regard to stars, while the WEC welterweight, middleweight, and light heavyweight fighters didn’t have to be thrown into the deep water of the UFC before they were ready.
Co-promotion doesn’t have to be such a dirty concept to fans. And it doesn’t require that the two promotions be equal, only that the benefits outweigh the costs.
and right now the benefits don’t outweigh the costs. Any co-promotion zuffa would do with anyone would mean that Zuffa is getting less revenue from a card they could have done on their own, and it will expose their audience to another brand and expose their fanbase to a competing fanbase.
As for the WEC, who knows what they’re doing with that, but let’s not pretend that a show “co-promoted” with the WEC would quiet anyone’s whining about co-promotion, everyone would say that it doesn’t count because they’re owned by the same people.
This part:
and it will expose their audience to another brand and expose their fanbase to a competing fanbase.
is poppycock. The rest I tend to agree with.
Remember, the goals here are to convert the greatest possible percentage of the 6-7 million free TV MMA fans into paying fans, while simultaneously growing that audience by a few more million. If co-promotion means that a few cards a year, instead of getting 350K buys, get 800K buys, then UFC sees an appreciable benefit (especially if you believe in “momentum,” i.e. that fans who buy one PPV are more readily convinced to buy the next one.)
And I don’t speak for “teh interwebs.” However, regardless of whether WEC and the UFC are owned by Zuffa, they are still promoted separately, to the detriment of both companies. A little co-promotion would benefit both, while potentially quieting the “UFC should absorb WEC” talk.
How would any co promotion that we are talking about increase viewership?
The fighters that people want to see in the UFC fight people outside of the UFC are mainly BJ and Brock. Is Brock Fedor going to do more than 1.7 million? More than 1.5 million? Will it come close to justify giving m1 half the money (what they’ve publicly stated they want).
What about BJ Aoki? How much more than your average BJ fight will that bring in?
The current co-promotion fights on the table won’t do shit for Zuffa’s numbers for those cards. If those cards to outsell what the UFC fighters usually do, it will be 99% because of the promotion the UFC will be putting into a fighter that they don’t have under contract (and would get no future benefit of promoting) and 1% because of that actual fighter. it doesn’t make sense right now.
Good points, Phildo.
At this point, Zuffa is defining (read: creating) the marketplace for MMA. For them to co-promote with someone who is quite literally eating their wake would be so absurd as to be laughable.
I also have to question madiq’s assertion that it’s ‘poppycock’ to believe that fanbase erosion can and does occur when a competitor advertises during the presentation of your product. I’m not sure how exactly to respond to that.
It’s not that it will necessarily cause all that much in the way of ‘hard’ losses for Zuffa, but they would literally be giving the keys to their audience to one of their only rivals. You don’t just do that. Facebook sold for I forget how many billions of dollars not for the software or apps. God, no. It was simply for the customers and their ~22minutes/day of internet surfing time they spend there.
You don’t just hand your hard-earned customers to a competitor. If you do, you go out of business.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Stated quite simply, the game is not zero-sum. I don’t believe that Zuffa alone is creating the marketplace for MMA. Believe it or not, the IFL, EliteXC, PRIDE, and even Affliction have expanded the marketplace, and created MMA fans. Bellator and Strikeforce continue to do so. To believe in fanbase erosion is to believe that the sport is peaking, or that Zuffa isn’t promoting the best cards. Personally, I think that there are different business models at work, and I believe that Zuffa’s might be defective.
If Zuffa co-promoted, they would have been able to have the Top fighters in every weight class under its banner. That would have been a strong engine for growth, and probably provided an impenetrable shield against the attacks of its competition. They would have been in no danger of going out of business.
Cough
Saying Affliction expanded the marketplace is the same as saying the XFL brought in new football fans. Pretty blurry talking point, if you ask me..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
That is true
But from my own personal anecdotal evidence, Strikeforce and EliteXC have brought a lot of people into mma through Kimbo and now Fedor.
CBS
Doesn’t really matter who fights if you expose a CBS audience to a new sport (when the UFC hasn’t had a network television deal). So yeah, they’ve brought in a bunch of new fans.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Since we started from the contention that “Co-promotion has been proven to never work,” I started with and continue to discuss the idea of co-promotion in the abstract, while citing specific examples to illustrate an abstract principle. That abstract principle is that making the best fights generates the most fans, and that growing the MMA audience is better, long-term, for everyone.
Related to that point is my belief that the UFC brand has already won the Brand Wars. Many people think of the sport as “UFC,” or ultimate fighting, instead of mixed martial arts. However, that doesn’t mean that the brand trumps all, or that, in the long-term, brand-building is more important than growth. Thus, the UFC rightfully should be interested in building an appetite for its product in as many venues as possible, and maintaining the perception that they do aspire to be “the biggest sport in the world.” But that doesn’t mean they should be stretching PAST the appetites of their fanbase, putting together cards that fans don’t want to see, just to keep doing cards. Yes, we know that numbered UFC events are predictable and perpetual, but fans don’t want to buy cards out of obligation. They buy them because they care to see the fights live, as they happen.
It has been frequently said that a fight card with the “UFC” letters attached to it is more marketable than the exact same card without those letters. So it follows that every Strikeforce-M1 card instantly becomes more marketable if they can also call it a UFC card. The same goes for every Bellator tournament. However, if one wants “UFC” to be associated with the sport’s BIGGEST fights, then it logically follows that those promoters would rather have fighters on UFC cards, splitting that revenue, than on its own, generating less revenue. There is, after all, space between All and Nothing.
Viewership increases when the masses buy what a promotion is selling. What the UFC should be selling is that The Octagon is where the most meaningful fights occur, that all of the world’s best fighters fight there. That means that they should be trying to consolidate access to every division’s Top 25, and every fight between Top 5 fighters in a weight division should be happening there. But the name of the game is ACCESS, not CONTROL.
BJ Penn vs. Shinya Aoki alone might not draw, but UFC vs. DREAM might, especially if they use former PRIDE stars. With FEG demonstrating their willingness to think outside the box for ratings, the idea of pitting promotion vs. promotion isn’t unthinkable, and whatever your thoughts about FEG, you have to admit that they are at least as competent as Zuffa at promotion. So your 99/1 ratio is unlikely, as is your contention that Zuffa will see no benefit in the future from a fighter who doesn’t consider the UFC his “home” promotion. Again, even if a non-UFC fighter upsets a UFC fighter, the appropriate venue for a rematch is still the UFC, because the fight will be bigger in the Octagon. (See Rampage-Liddell II)
But with all that said, it really isn’t make or break for Zuffa right now. I never argued that it was necessary for them to co-promote now, but that co-promotion would accelerate their growth, as it would enable them to more readily put all the sports biggest fights in the Octagon. I also contend that the lack of co-promotion RETARDS the sport’s growth, and that eventually, either co-promotion or aggressive acquisition will be necessary.
Your arguments are well-considered,
and I disagree with every single one of them. The biggest apparent difference in our thinking looks like you might believe that the UFC is nearing its zenith in terms of market saturation, while I am operating under the assumption that there are still literally 100% untapped markets out there which they are attempting to force their way into.
Assuming the UFC brand has been stomped into the public consciousness of 100% of the potential global fanbase, and MMA as a sport has done 70-80% of it’s growth potential, I could see most of your reasoning for co-promotion as at the very least being valid. Until that point I just don’t see how it benefit Zuffa, or the casual MMA fan to have Zuffa hand over market share to its (inferior, every single one) competitors.
Until you can definitively, unquestionably make the declaration that it would benefit Zuffa in the short- and long-term to co-promote, it isn’t going to happen. It looks like you’ve made a reasonable argument for how the MMA landscape may be in like ten years, but for today I just don’t see it.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I agree in theory
But your argument is if the co-promotion were purely over domestic revenue. A Dream- Strikeforce co-promotion could make perfect sense if they decided to hold two shows, one in the US and one in Japan. Then the two promoters would split the purse but each would retain the revenue from their own markets. In this case co-promotion makes a lot of sense: both promotions are saving a lot of money on their payrolls and since neither makes much of broadcast revenue in the other’s territory they should be more than happy to give it up at the chance to save money (Of course, I realize this might not be the exact working relationship between Strikeforce and Dream but I needed an example).
An m-1/Zuffa co-promotion doesn’t seem absurd to me as long as m-1’s broadcasting rights were limited to Russia, South Korea, and a few of the other Soviet Block nations. In that case, it might make sense for the UFC to pay Fedor a ton of money and sign over the broadcasting rights to a bunch of countries where the UFC has little penetration right now if the result is a 2 million buy show in the US. Unless, of course, Zuffa really plans on making a push in those territories and thinks they’re too valuable to share.
Gross gets paid to troll professionally, the difference between a MMA journalist and a MMA fan that makes posts is the motivation to write articles that make lots of people say “WTF?” and thus you get more hits which makes you a better “journalist.”
There’s no accountability for writing things that are not researched and the more people that hate your article and criticize it just means you will get more website hits, the greatest articles on BE will get less hits than a Josh Gross trolling the UFC article, because like tabloids, bullshit sells.
by DirtyML on Jan 16, 2010 1:43 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
I Think Gross Just Plays His Role...
too blatantly… he’s become known for this, and uses it to get hits, imo. With all the criticism that the UFC gets, you won’t find serious stories criticizing Dream or SF very much… Not even for not having fights finalized 2 weeks before a fight, or putting your next possible WWs contender on the untelevised (and maybe even unrecorded) portion of the card, while promoting one of the aforementioned fights that lacks an opponent, and Herschel Walker… The standards are so skewed its becoming increasingly hard to take the mma media serious. Its almost as if SF gets a special pass for simply not being under Zuffa’s umbrella.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Jan 16, 2010 2:41 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
ridiculous amount of josh gross hate
for the record, i think josh gross does a great job.
he’s not a troll, he’s not anti-zuffa, and he’s not trying to play a specific part. the dude has devoted the past ~15 years of his life to covering MMA and helping it grow. without all the people like him, we wouldn’t be watching MMA today.
www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology
I agree. His article didn’t strike me as anti-Zuffa, but judging from the comments I am in the small minority on that.
Most of his arguments weren’t convincing, but he raised a few good points about judging and fights like Penn-Aoki and St. Pierre-Shields. I think most people made up their mind before they read the article.
We Need Guys Like Gross In MMA Media
He’s out there saying the stuff that gets ALOT of attention and phrasing it in a way that may make him a bad guy, but initiates a response nonetheless. Criticizing these shortcomings is a great way to get people fired up to actually DO SOMETHING about it.
UFC likes taking the responsibility for pioneering this sport. But what are they doing to solve these VERY REAL hurdles in modern MMA? Are they ready to be responsible for its continued growth too?
Keep on keeping on, Josh Gross.
http://www.mmarecap.com
by bonez2799 on Jan 16, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
What VERY REAL hurdles in modern MMA is the UFC not looking to solve?
Just BE.
by mattman73 on Jan 16, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fighters rights.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Yep,
Getting paid, insurance, HUGE endorsement deals and taking care of fighters (paying them) when stuff arises beyond their control. Zuffa should act more like Strikeforce and leave people hanging.
by Riney on Jan 16, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Right...
Getting paid is what you complain about? Ok, that’s sadly fair in a general sense, but we aren’t comparing UFC to Bitetti Combat. SRC, Strikeforce, Jungle Fight, and Affliction all pay/paid on time, DREAM being the only major promotion that is reputedly late on payments.
Not all fighters have insurance. UFC only medically supports people they like. I give them credit for standing by Corey Hill and numerous other fighters, but they also wouldn’t help Tito because he was a dick. Even though that’s the reason Tito was relevant and valuable…
UFC has little to nothing to do with endorsement deals, other than banning certain sponsors for questionable reasons. MMA Authentics, Clinch Gear, RVCA will tell you about that. Managers are in charge of getting sponsorships. If anything, this is another black mark against UFC, for not giving fighters and managers appropriate warning that a sponsor will be blackballed. BJ and Kenny have both had to scramble for new sponsorships right before a title fight and very likely lost money because of it. The exception is that WEC set up Urijah with Amp, but that was likely since they kicked No Fear to the curb and wanted to keep their poster child up to date with branding. But we are talking UFC, not Zuffa.
Paying Nover and his opponent, including win bonuses, is one of the coolest and best things the UFC has done in my mind. I give them mad props for that. But it has nothing to do with fighters rights. As amazing of an act as it was, it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
What I talk about with fighters rights is things like strong arming guys to sign away image rights. Lyoto Machida should be raking in cash on the Round 5 figurines, but gets nothing since he no longer owns his image. Jon Fitch got fired for nothing other than trying to negotiate a shorter contract on his image rights, citing 5-10 years rather than a lifetime. There’s obviously much many more examples.
Maybe it’s because I’m from Chicago, but I can’t help but compare the treatment of UFC fighters to Pullman employees. “We are born in a Pullman house, fed from the Pullman shops, taught in the Pullman school, catechized in the Pullman Church, and when we die we shall go to the Pullman Hell.” If Dana could own athletes like that, he’d be in heaven.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jan 16, 2010 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
your rant about the medical issue is funny. the only guy you could come up with was tito, possibly the worst example. hill hurt himself in the cage during a fight. tito hurt himself over the years of fighting and not seeking medical care until it was too late. how is that the ufcs fault?
by sadface on Jan 16, 2010 6:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The refused to pay for his back surgery while he was under contract with them.
Dana went out of his way to say that he’s paid for the exact same surgery for someone else under contract, but wouldn’t for Tito because fuck you Tito! I forget who it was and can’t find the interview in under a minute on Google, but the point is he doesn’t care about the health of fighters and competitors in the UFC. He cares about the health of company men. Which I understand, it’s dickish and makes sense, but it invalidates the argument that he insures and takes care of all fighters.
And I never said it was the UFCs fault that Tito hurt himself. Dana didn’t play the Pokemon cartoon in the locker room until Nover had a seizure. Lorenzo didn’t give Lesnar diverticulitis. But they still took care of them.
By the way, four sentences isn’t a rant. This might be, but I suggest you either act less condescending out of instinct or you go to Sherdog where that’s the norm.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I don't know
If one of my employees had health care under my business, wore a shirt to work that said I’m his/her bitch, then quit/had their contract run out, I wouldn’t pay for their surgery either. Just saying..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 16, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I should have added that their head looks like a tennis ball.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Jan 17, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
I'm with you, man.
Dana’s decision was totally understandable and justifiable. In his position, I probably would have done the same thing. It’s a pretty cold way to treat to another human being.
But the real point is that Riney’s comment to me contains a falsehood, which is what I was addressing.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
the tito thing was a very unique circumstance (that he’s oddly not whining about anymore). Dana has said that they tried to get the insurance company that they use to cover the fights to pay for the surgery, but they just showed Dana a tape of tito saying he was injured going into the fight and said it was a pre-existing condition so they wouldn’t pay. Since the easy way of getting the surgery paid for was canceled out be Tito’s need to make excuses every time he loses, why should Zuffa go above and beyond to fix him up to fight for someone else?
The refused to pay for his back surgery while he was under contract with them.
Huh?
The UFC doesn’t actually pay for medical expenses. They pay for medical insurance, and the insurance company pays the medical expenses. It is up to the insurance provider to determine what is covered and what is not covered.
Zuffa did their part. They paid for Tito’s medical insurance for that event. The problem was, Tito’s dumb ass got on the mic and claimed his back injury was a pre-existing condition and the insurance company denied his claim on that basis. Zuffa had nothing to do with it.
I still couldn't find the first interview I was referencing
because if you search any combination UFC, surgery, and back then all you get are articles about Tito being back and Lesnar’s illness. In lieu of that, I found another relevant quote.
“Corey Hill is still in the hospital. He had surgery, they put a plate in his leg. We paid for all that. We covered all those expenses. He’ll go into rehab, we’ll pay for that too.”
…
“Go out and say we own the Ultimate Fighting Championship,” said White. “We like to get some health insurance for our fighters. You can’t do it. It would cost so much money it would put you out of business.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/cagewriter/post/Who-pays-for-Corey-Hill-s-recovery-?urn=mma,129949
That story is just over a year old, so if you know a more recent story that says otherwise, please link/share. I would be so happy to be wrong when I say that the UFC doesn’t always insure or cover medical expenses for their fighters.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
All Zuffa fighters (and all fighters for all promotions except the defunct IFL) are considered independent contractors and as such are not insured except for injuries that take place during a sanctioned match. And even then I think there is some limited liability for the promoter.
So if you get injured while training – you are screwed.
Absolutely right.
The insurance that Zuffa (and all other sanctioned North American promotions) pays for is event based. Anything that happens outside of the event is not covered. That’s why guys who engage in post-match excuse making are fucking morons. Take your loss like a man, keep your mouth shut, and let the insurance handle your medical expenses.
Dana also said
That Tito stated in an interview right after the fight, that he didn’t hurt his back during a fight, he hurt it in training. The UFC doesn’’t cover training injuries.
Tito’s a bad example because he makes millions per fight, and his surgery was something like $70K.
Co-promotion is bad for fighter pay. Seperate promotions mean more competition for the same pool of fighters. That means more money, better treatment and perks.
The health insurance situation does suck if you’re a fighter in America.
All we need is an objective match-making system that takes the human out of the process so that we don’t get shit like Aldo vs. Faber. Then MMA will be a real sport instead of a sideshow.
"That muscle contraction, that core strength that kind of happens, that pulls together when you’re maybe smoking weed or whatever, you know, you’re coughing or whatever ... I’m not a doctor or a fucking scientist, but I’ve smoked plenty of weed. And, you know, I think in my opinion it’s pretty damn good for you."
shit like aldo vs faber?
He is ranked number 3. Aldo just beat brown, we want to give him a rematch right away?
In this “objective matchmaking system” we would have seen brown faber 3 before seeing aldo/brown, and we would have seen franklin silva 8 and gsp fitch 15 before getting to see silva vs anyone he’s fought recently and belfort, or gsp vs alves/penn/hardy.
You can’t have objective matchmaking because you can’t have objective rankings.
by Phildo on Jan 16, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Aldo Faber fight isn't that bad.
He just decisively wrecked a top 10, fringe top 5 opponent. Before that, he had good position and sub attempts against MTB. With two broken hands. Faber vs. Brown II might have been the most impressive losing I’ve ever seen that wasn’t a robbery on controversial. Not to mention that the WEC featherweight division is completely top heavy. Aldo MTB and Urijah are brutally good, but nobody else is really a contender. Closest is Manny Gamburyan, who needs one more good win. Josh Grispi needs another win as well, and Urijah vs. Aldo is a compelling and marketable fight to buy time for Grispi vs. Gamburyan as a #1 contenders bout. It does smell a little like the Randy treatment on the surface, but it is also very justifiable.
Tangentially, if Grispi fights Aldo in 2010, would that be the youngest major title fight in MMA history? They are 21 and 23. Randy Couture is older than the two of them combined.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I guess MMA Eruption thought “Dana White is a PROMOTER and prone to hyperbole” sounded much better than Dana White is a promoter so he gets a pass for lying.
by scrambledeggs on Jan 16, 2010 12:58 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Why are people complaining about Urijah Faber getting a shot?
He doesn’t deserve the shot? OF COURSE HE DOES..
He’s the number 3 FW who just beat the number 6 FW.. Number 2 just lost badly to number 1, so why would he get the first title defense? That just doesn’t make sense. You give it to the next contender. That’s how it works people.
It’s not like you should give Rich Franklin his second shot at Anderson Silva immediately after Silva dominated him and took his belt right?
Immediate rematches happens from time to time, when people get upset victories which some consider ‘fluke’ victories, or when the two have really competitive match where people can’t get a clear victor. So yes, it happens occasionally but it isn’t the norm, and neither of those reasons fit the description of how Brown vs Aldo went…
stop acting like this was the WEC screwing a deserving guy to favor a more marketable one, cause it isn’t.
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 17, 2010 1:07 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Seriously
You shouldn’t have even had to say all of this. Beyond all of this, people conveniently forget that Faber broke both of his fucking hands in his last fight with Brown, and still came relatively close to winning a decision.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Even Mike Brown gets why he won't get the next shot
“I think it’s time for Aldo to fight someone else. He TKO’d me in the second round. There’s no reason he shouldn’t give somebody else a shot before I get back in there.
“I’ve won one. Let somebody else get a crack at it, but if they don’t get it then maybe I get my shot. I think it makes a lot of sense. You can’t have me fighting him back-to-back like that for no great reason, but I’ll be back and I’ll get my shot.”
http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=10505&zoneid=13
Can everyone stop bitching on this issue already?
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 17, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think some people consider this to be zero sum,
either Win or Lose. To them, a Win is a Win, and a Loss is a Loss, it shouldn’t matter how it happens, because in baseball it doesn’t matter if you win 12-0 or 2-1, and in football it doesn’t matter if you win 49-0 or 7-6.
Fighting is necessarily a different animal. Good find on the article.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
faber's style of fighting might be more suited to fighting jose aldo but.......
i don’t think he will beat him.
i'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. i was building a house, i don't deserve this, deserves have nothing to do with it. bang. "unforgiven"
by wolfmanshowlforever on Jan 22, 2010 9:07 PM EST reply actions

by 












