Who has the Best Chance of Knocking Off BJ?
by SamCupitt on Sep 6, 2009 1:15 AM EDT
71 comments
Sherdog has their monthly "10 Tussles Worth Watching" article up for September, and as usual it provides some nice insight on some the lesser known battles happening in the mixed martial arts world. However, it was this bit of insight from the article's author, Tim Leidecker, on the Hermes Franca vs. Tyson Griffin fight (ranked No. 2 by the by) that raised my eyebrow:
In a fight that should serve as a title eliminator, Tyson Griffin (4-0 against opponents from Brazil) will face one of his toughest hurdles to date in former lightweight championship challenger Hermes Franca. Frankie Edgar, Gray Maynard and Diego Sanchez are likely on the fast track to a title shot right now. However, the winner of this battle between Griffin, the inexhaustible power plug, and Franca, the heavy-handed black belt, deserves to challenge champion B.J. Penn, as well, and probably has a better chance at upsetting the reigning 155-pound king than the aforementioned trio.
I for one think the emphasised statement is completely nutty, but what say you people? Who out of the top five contenders in the UFC right now has the best chance at derailing BJ?
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Clay Guida, aside from him maybe Frankie or Tyson have a shot at beating BJ but i’d still go with Clay over both of them. He’s got a great chin, incredible cardio and relentless takedowns he’s be BJ’s nightmare opponent at LW.
by Raker on Sep 6, 2009 1:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Guida gets by Florian?
This shirt is "dry clean only", which means it's dirty.
by SamCupitt on Sep 6, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
Guida gets brutally KTFO’d by Penn.
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by Kid Nate on Sep 6, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually would think he’d be more likely to get subbed.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on Sep 6, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way BJ would easily defend Guida’s takedown’s and pick him apart with superior striking
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
BJ is Clay Guida’s worst nightmare. The best takedown defense in the division and one of the best finishers. Unlike a lot of lightweights, BJ doesn’t let his opponents hang around. When he gets a guy in a bad position, he finishes. Clay’s vaunted cardio would never come into play because BJ would finish him early.
by Steve4192 on Sep 6, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true..
Diego would be a better guy to test BJ’s cardio than Clay.. (although i’m not sure if Diego can do it)
Guida’s game just doesn’t matchup well with BJ’s..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one right now.
Diego Sanchez is a great opponent but is not gonna dethrone BJ.
Gray Maynard is probably won of the most underated talents in the lw division but I’m interested to see how the Huerta fight goes.
Frankie Edgar is another underated fighter at LW but seeing how Gray gave him problems no he wont beat BJ.
Tyson Griffin is another great opponent and often gets unfairly criticized because he doesnt finish fights but no.
Hermes Franca I think will lose to Griffin so no.
Clay Guida. No he lost to Huera and Griffin.
Roger Huerta – I wish he was still gonna fight even though he lost to Ken-Flo.
The person that is gonna knock off BJ is the person BJ doesnt take seriously so maybe a Guida but it wont be because Guida is better, it will be because BJ slacks off and loses.
Watch the Maynard-Huerta fight. If Maynard wins he is probably next.
However if Huerta wins and still leaves I wouldnt be suprised to see Edgar get the shot. Unless Griffin or Franca have a great performance then maybe them.
by bigdmmafan on Sep 6, 2009 2:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sorry
one of not won of I keep using the wrong speeling today
by bigdmmafan on Sep 6, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s too bad I would love to see Maynard fight Griffin
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maynard vs tyson would be an awesome match i heard things like they wont fight because theyr on the same team kinda like we wont ever see fitch vs swick or kos i guess? i hope the whole team mate vs team mate shit works itself out and we can see some good fights cause who ever say maynard vs griffin wouldnt be sweet is out of theirs
by buttters on Sep 7, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to see Guida-Griffin 2, for no other reason than the first one was awesome.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
by mythbuster on Sep 7, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is that a joke there is no one in the lightweight division with that type of strength or functional wrestling to utilize the same game plan as GSP
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for some reason a lot of wrestlers dont use their wrestling and that hurts them a lot.
look at Evans I’m not saying he wouldve beat Machida but I think if he had tried to utilize his wrestling he might have done a little better
Same with Sean Sherk against BJ and Edgar. He tried to outbox them.
That is why I would give Gray Maynard the best shot at BJ but again thats if he comes in with a game plan and sticks with it.
Thats the smart thing about Lesnar, yeah sometimes he tries to stand with people but anytime Lesnar faces any type of trouble he goes to what he knows best and that is wrestling
by bigdmmafan on Sep 6, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maynard is gonna have a hard time taking BJ down I think..
He isn’t as big as BJ, and he’s far from GSP’s size..
hughes had trouble taking him down, all the LW had trouble too, and maynard is a great wrestler, but i don’t think he can do it, unless he wears BJ and tires him out standing… which is also doubtful in my opinion.
I think a guy who can beat BJ is someone who can own him on the feet and hold his own in the ground too, and i don’t think that’s Maynard..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
But lately I’ve been impressed with Maynard’s stand-up. His power is mediocre but he knocked some dude out (Joe Veres? Too tired to look it up) and worked Frank Miller on the feet. Give him some time and I think he’ll become a serious threat.
by Captain7 on Sep 7, 2009 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Miller.
yeah, he’s improved his hands, but still a long ways to go from out boxing BJ Penn..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 7, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Brock’s wrestling is due to his sheer size I don’t take anything away from the guy but I don’t think he will be do so well with a guy as big as him part of the reason I’m looking forward to a matchup with carwin Grey is smaller and ot quite as skilled standing I don’t think he stands a chance
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so how did he win the NCAA national title? by being larger than his opponent?
His size gives him a ton of advantages in MMA, no one can deny that.. BUT to say that his wrestling is because of his size is wrong… that’s just absurd.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh maybe I should just refer to it as functional wrestling I had no intention of bad mouthing his achievments in college
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not his achievements, his skill..
his wrestling skills is in fact there because of his skills, (and dedication, practice, athleticism, blahblah), not size..
He uses his size to his advantage, but he did not become a better wrestler because he is big.. there’s a big difference there.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay I can see that I definitely understated his athleticism and I have to give it to him for a heavyweight the guy shoots a double as well as a lightweight but the way I saw it his most dominating performance was against Mir where he used his size not a bunch of incredible wrestling to beat Mir’s face into the canvas. This is strictly my opinion and I will be the first to admit that the guy has only had 5 fights and a world champion.
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch the following video ...
… you might learn something.
by Steve4192 on Sep 6, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay didn’t really learn anything actually it kinda added to my point. Thank you Stephen Kesting.
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll let Kid Nate’s Judo Chop do the educating.. :)
Bobb sapp is bigger, and also athletic, but has really crappy wrestling. If you still don’t think what Lesnar did doesn’t require skill then you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually I never said it didn’t require skill what I said was he wouldn’t have been able to do it without superior size and strength actually the fight was a testament to using ones size to execute a great gameplan and stifling world class jits
by drano on Sep 6, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brock’s wrestling is due to his sheer size
yes you did. and you are wrong.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh that’s not the point I was trying to get across at all my mistake if it sounds that way I will stand by the fact that if not for his size the techniques he uses would not work
by drano on Sep 7, 2009 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're mistaking size for strength..
Brock has enormous strength.. It’s what add’s to his technique.. It isn’t about how big Lesnar is.. It’s about how strong he is coupled with his talent alone..
It’s all technique when it comes to Brock.. He just makes it look easy because he has so much talent in wrestling. His functional strength and agility have stayed with him for all these years..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
by MMAuthority on Sep 7, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ Penn
He wont lose until he has his head up his ass. If BJ really WANTS to fight, no 155er in the world will beat him.
by Riney on Sep 6, 2009 2:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Going outside of the UFC even, I don’t know if someone like Hansen or Aoki or any fighters who fight out of Japan can even give BJ a competitive fight.
by chrisbboy82 on Sep 6, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither of those
But If Alvarez could keep it on his feet and work body shots then he could out strike him and either put him away or win a decision.
by Captain7 on Sep 7, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like he was going to do against Aoki
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 8, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the UFC
Tyson and Gray that’s it.
Outside the UFC has the better fights:
Kawajiri and Melendez would be tough amazing fights and JZ + Hansen would be scraps. I always wanted to see a Gomi rematch in his prime. Even BJ wanted to do it.
If BJ was outside the UFC they would criticize him like they do Fedor. The situations are almost exactly same but flipped.
by gunranger on Sep 6, 2009 3:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And when I say that’s it I mean from a who has the best chance of winning, not that there aren’t quality fights left. Although I don’t even see BJ staying at LW after this; he’s going to be spending time putting on muscle for the GSP rematch
by gunranger on Sep 6, 2009 4:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t get the Fedor comparison.. the examples you gave are Melendez and JZ who are outside of the top 10 and Hansen is borderline at 9.. Kawajiri is the most legit at 6.
Aoki, Alvarez, Hansen and Kawajiri would be interesting. but i don’t think anyone is banging on Dana’s door asking him to let BJ fight Melendez or Kawajiri just yet, so it’s completely different from Fedor’s situation..
People are criticizing fedor because people want to see him fight Lesnar and other UFC guys who are ranked 2,3,4,5, and 7.. So it’s kinda different….Pretty unfair criticism for Fedor, but BJ’s situation is completely different..
he also has been jumping to WW to fight their best fighters too so that makes it even more different from Fedor’s situation..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 4:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki is 2 and Eddie is 3, Kawa is top10, so is Hirota, Hansen, Kitaoka. They’re more ranked guys outside. I was disregarding ranking when I made my list of fighters I thought of styles not rankings. The comparison is spot on. While BJ is fighting quality fighters he’s not fighting the highly ranked ones, and that isn’t his fault it’s just the business of MMA. (Although after looking at the newest rankings of most sites I’m almost completely turned off by them. Randy still ranked? ugh) Most fans don’t realize signing with the UFC isn’t just as simple because of their contract structure and when fighters don’t agree to those terms, fights don’t get made.It’s a drawback of the system. BJ’s situation is from the flip side of the coin.
BJ doesn’t fight anyone at WW (or won’t) except GSP. He wouldn’t waste a fight there, except for maybe Hughes 3.
by gunranger on Sep 6, 2009 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Florian was ranked number 2 at the time..
GSP is the number 1 WW, Sherk was the champ (and top 5 i think) before he was stripped, Joe was top 10.. throughout his career he has constantly fought the best even in different weightclasses. There are no squash matches in BJ’s career and that is a big criticism that most people call Fedor for..
If you look at it right now, maybe you could get similar comparisons, like the ones you mentioned..
but the main difference with their situation now though, is that no one is screaming for Kawajiri, Alvarez or even Aoki to fight BJ Penn, compared to everyone wanting to see Fedor vs Brock..
That being said, i’d love to see Aoki fight him.. I think lots of people would salivate at the idea of Aoki signing with the UFC and fighting Penn for the title..
Also, the rankings haven’t been updated so Randy’s UFC 102 loss has yet to be reflected.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think bj mops the floor with aoki. the disparity in their striking is huge and i cant see a situation where aoki takes bj down.
by sadface on Sep 6, 2009 12:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Flying guard pull
If done properly, no can defend.
by Steve4192 on Sep 6, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ demolishes when he has top control..
by bigweeze on Sep 7, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sherk was ranked but low top10. Kenny was not the real #2 (that was a flaw of the sites they use for ranking). I don;t remember Joe being ranked. I’m not saying they weren’t very good but aside from Sherk (and he’s only 3-2 at LW and style is fucked now) who would you consider elite? BJ has a squash match in a shot Pulver to avenge a loss. People criticize fedor even when he fights top opposition (Tim and AA), it’s to the point now where it’s solely because of whcih org he is. That much cant be debated. Look at how all the fans aof Striekforce are now wishing they would fail just because he signed with them (and he wasn’t even a free agent to begin with).
I know people aren’t clamoring for it but that’s because they are unaware of the world LWs plus LW isn’t the combat sport marquee division like HW.
by gunranger on Sep 6, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contradicting yourself?
why would you bring up sherk’s low top 10 ranking to prove a point, while saying that the rankings were also flawed that Kenny was #2?
Cause you want to discredit the guy to prove that Fedor’s fights are being discredited too?
All these discrediting of wins should stop.. A win is a win.. BJ is the top dog at LW, he fights top guys.. Fedor is the top dog at HW, and he has fought top guys in PRIDE, and he has did that again in his last two fights.
While no one is contesting BJ’s number 1 slot yet, Brock has had a fast rise to the top by beating Herring, randy and mir, making people want to see him fight Fedor.. that’s where all the criticism stems from.. that’s the thing.
It isn’t because of UFC vs Non-UFC.. it’s because the number 1 guy can’t fight the guy that rose the rankings very very quickly.
Fedor gets criticism, not just because he is outside of the UFC.. even Brock gets heavy criticism from fans.. It’s just how MMA fans are.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 6, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How am I contradicting myself? The consensus rankings are flawed because they use sites that have awful rankings. Kenny never beat a ranked fighter but ended u #2? And Sherk only had two fights at LW prior to BJ and one he got popped for roids I was only correcting your statement of where they were ranked.
Im not discrediting wins I’m using rankings to show how flawed and biased the arguments are. We’re going in circles now anyway; you already agreed on the point.
by gunranger on Sep 6, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's unaware of the world's LWs?
Japan has been keeping high LW rankings intact by fighting each other only.
It annoys me to see Hansen in the top 5…even when he’s 6-5 his last 11 LW fights.
Aoki is one-dimensional…and Penn is better than him in his one dimension.
Sherk, Guida, Sanchez, Florian, Maynard, Griffin…
All these guys would be on par with Japan’s best easily.
So don’t assume that “people” aren’t aware of the world’s LWs…
History has showed us that Japan’s best are on even ground with UFC’s best….despite what it says in the rankings.
by MickDawg on Sep 6, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While you’re probably right regarding the parity in skill, there’s a reason that the fighters active in Japan remain so highly ranked. By the time the UFC crowned its first lightweight champion in 2001, Shooto had been promoting fights in the lightweight class for over a decade. And while the UFC ceased to promote lightweights between 2003 and 2005, the division was blowing up in PRIDE.
So the LW class has a much deeper history in Japan, from which the Japan-active fighters benefit, rankings wise. And that advantage will probably stick around until there’s some significant crossover, or until the UFC manages to establish itself as the big stage for LWs, which will take a little time.
by JRN on Sep 6, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diego did look a bit better in his second 155lb fight, but I think he was still far from stellar. He might need a lot more time fighting at that weight before he has the chance to take out BJ.
Then again….you never know, Stevia works in mysterious ways…….
by soadtrails on Sep 6, 2009 7:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez
Sanchez has the best chance, but will still fall short.
Sadly.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
by mythbuster on Sep 6, 2009 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody has a 'good chance' against BJ
So I would go with the guy most likely to score a fluke win, and that guy is Hermes Franca. Hermes has ridiculous KO power for a LW. I know BJ has a legendary chin, but even guys with legendary chins can get knocked out if you hit ’em just right. If Hermes were to land one those from the waist haymakers, he could certainly do the implausible.
by Steve4192 on Sep 6, 2009 10:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel the only man who can beat BJ wears magical spandex pants, sadly he fights overseas.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Sep 6, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
zomg
He’s ducking BJ!
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
by mythbuster on Sep 6, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ would Sakurai him.
Shinya would have to work hard to get a sub, and BJ would pound the crap out of him while he was sub hunting.
by Steve4192 on Sep 6, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a chance.
Penn is better than Aoki at everything.
Quick fight, Penn (T)KO.
by MickDawg on Sep 6, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your all underestimating the power of the magical spandex pants. They were created by Japanese scientists, deep within Mt. Fuji, powered by dark magic.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Sep 7, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking Diego might have a shot. But then I remembered that he couldn’t finish Joe Stevenson and Clay Guida. He should be steamrolling lesser competition.
by MMAEruption on Sep 6, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no way Hermes Franca gets a title shot. He’s lost two of his last three fights! He’ll need more than two wins in a row to get to BJ. It only took Diego two wins to get there, but he has TUF notoriety and a bigger fan base.
I want to see Hermes fight Kenny Florian.
by MMAEruption on Sep 6, 2009 1:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Diego was also a monster at 170 – it may have been a different weight division, but I don’t think it’s fair to overlook those wins just because he’s 15lbs lighter. However, he also seems to have lost his power, so…yeah…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Sep 6, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, Diego seems to have the best shot at beating BJ, but I personally don’t think that he will win. I think that Diego is BJ’s biggest threat, but after Diego, I don’t think that anyone will be a threat to BJ. Some say Maynard, but Maynard’s biggest strength (wrestling) is something that BJ is excellent at defending. I don’t even see any prospects at Lightweight that could potentially dethrone BJ in the future (I am a huge fan of Sotiropolous, but I can’t see him beating BJ). No one outside of the UFC seems like they could defeat BJ as well.
by chrisbboy82 on Sep 7, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I think
Diego’s frame is just too big for LW, IMO. He looks absolutely gaunt, and he’s admitted that in both fights @ 155, the cut negatively affected him. He’s shredded, but it doesn’t look like he has healthy musculature, and the KO power that he seemed to carry at Welter doesn’t seem like it’s survived the cut either.
He might be huge, but I think once BJ sends Diego packing, he’ll probably just have to take some time off and pack on some lean mass.
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by ElliotMatheny on Sep 7, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something I forgot to mention
was how surprised I was that he didn’t KO Guida. Don’t get me wrong, Clay is SUPER tough, and has a damn good chin, but Sanchez must have landed like 4-5 flush uppercuts from his hip, and Clay didn’t even go down.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 7, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tho to be fair to Sanchez, Guida hasn’t ever been KO (according to his wiki page). All his losses are from submissions or decisions.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
by mythbuster on Sep 7, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true
I’m just sayin tho, if you land like 5 uppercuts with full torque on someone who’s chin is sticking out, and you don’t even knock them down, then maybe you’re lacking serious KO power.
And the same kick that Diego landed on Clay would’ve KO’d Clay if it’d been from someone like GSP, Rumble Johnson, or Thiago Alves
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 7, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diego is an average sized 170. Rumble and Alves are two of the biggest.
Diego has never been a huge finisher – some guys just aren’t even if they move up or down, while some guys just are.
Going back up to 170 won’t solve anything.
by bigweeze on Sep 7, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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