Making the Case for Alistair Overeem and Fabricio Werdum as Legit Challengers for Fedor Emelianenko
by Kid Nate on Sep 28, 2009 10:25 AM EDT
in MMA News
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Michael David Smith lays out an interesting argument:
Overeem beat Peter Aerts at the K-1 World Grand Prix 2009 in Seoul, advancing to the Final 8 of the world's foremost kickboxing organization. Werdum won the heavyweight title at ADCC 2009, the biggest no-gi grappling competition in the world.
That doesn't mean much of anything for Overeem's or Werdum's rankings in the MMA heavyweight landscape, because kickboxing and grappling aren't MMA. But it does mean something for Strikeforce: It means that in addition to being able to say they have the best heavyweight fighter in MMA in Fedor Emelianenko, they can also credibly say they have the best heavyweight striker in MMA and the best heavyweight grappler in MMA.
And for those who were worried by Alistair Overeem's manager Bas Boon's remarks calling M-1 Global various names and implying that his client wouldn't be fighting for Strikeforce anytime soon, MMA Convert updates the story:
Alistair Overeem’s manager and Golden Glory head, Bas Boon, dropped a bomb on us a couple weeks ago when he called M-1 ‘a bunch of crooks’ and insinuated Alistair wouldn’t fight on any Strikeforce/M-1 Global co-promoted cards.
And the good news is Bas says all the bad blood between him and M-1 won’t get in the way of this fight happening as long as the money is agreed upon and guaranteed.
I will never take an opportunity from a fighter to fight Fedor especially if the money is right and guaranteed. But there is an old bill to settle, everybody knows the story:
Please understand that I will always support and agree with Alistair [Overeem] or any other Golden Glory fighters to fight against Fedor at any time any place…as long as the money is agreed upon and guaranteed. It does not matter if the fight takes place is in Russia, Holland, Japan, America or any other country.
This is very good news for Strikeforce and MMA fans. Sure I'd much rather be seeing Fedor vs Brock Lesnar next, but if Strikeforce can succeed in matching up Fedor with Rogers, Werdum and Overeem they will be providing a legitimate roster of opponents for MMA's #1 heavyweight.
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I dunno if you could make the case that these are the best strikers/grapplers in the world, there weren’t any ufc fighters in either tourney. I’d like to see if overeem can pass a drug test
by kanodogg on Sep 28, 2009 10:08 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
You can certainly make the case that they are the best pure kickboxer and pure grappler that compete in MMA, but the UFC can always counter that claim by showing clips of Chuck/Shogun knocking Overeem silly and Dos Santos doing the same to Werdum. One embarrassing video clip trumps those titles in a PR battle.
Outside of a few hardcore fans, nobody in North America cares about ADCC or K-1 WGP results.
The UFC would counter with those highlights. It’s too bad that Overeem looks like a Sherman tank in comparison to his past physique. Aerts looked like a little Ironclad firing cannonballs at a Battleship. Overeem’s size… it was like he was firing shots off at the Hulk. Every punch just bounced off Overeem effortlessly.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s too bad that Overeem looks like a Sherman tank in comparison to his past physique
Which would have the added benefit (for Zuffa) of raising a red flag on an issue that Strikeforce probably wants to avoid.
Red flag or not… the guy is massive and a machine. You can’t really say anything unless he tests positive. I doubt they’ll stay away from him for that reason, but they may make the guy fight a tune-up fight to ensure he can pass a test.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't?
Why can’t we say something? This shit is beyond suspicious.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
That’s your perogative.
If you want to sit around speculating all day about who is on steroids and who isn’t… have fun. I’m not about to waste time doing so. If Strikeforce is worried about that, put him in a heavyweight bout with somebody for his first fight in the States and make sure he’s tested.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
You can bitch about speculatin
When BE stops ending post titles with question marks.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
How about staying on topic instead of attacking BloodyElbow.com?
The issue is speculating about steroids in the sport. My stance is that if it isn’t proven, I throw it out of the equation. If Overeem gets busted, then we have a discussion.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Attacking?
Who’s attacking?
I’m just saying that if half your posts are “engaging in a course of reasoning often based on inconclusive evidence,” it’s a little silly to decry speculation. Speculation is how you earn the (big?) bucks around here.
And deciding that it’s off-limits to discuss the possibility, raised by one of the fighters being discussed in the article, that another fighter is doing what half the MMA fanbase thinks he’s doing is silly.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Who decided anything was off limits? I could give two shits if you want to talk about someone being on steroids. I just don’t want to talk about it because my stance is that if they haven’t been caught… it doesn’t matter. It shouldn’t matter to anyone arguing about rankings or who’s the best because you can’t counter that with steroids. They never tested positive, so even if they are using… it doesn’t degrade them at all unless caught. It’s pointless.
Talk about whatever you want.. jesus. Off-limits? You’re living in a fantasy world then. I don’t care what you talk about.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude
Let’s not be naive. How may people have gotten banned for “fighter bashing” for discussing shit like this?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
I don’t really care how many have been banned. I haven’t done the banning, and I feel like the context of our conversation isn’t ban-worthy because there isn’t blatantly bashful comments.
Most of those conversations go over the line.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
But you can see how when a moderator says “You can’t really say anything unless he tests positive” that it sounds like he’s setting a limit on the conversation, yes?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
LOL… no, I don’t see that at all.
You take things WAY too literally. You actually read that sentence as…
You can’t really say [anything on this site about testing positive] unless he tests positive.
I’m saying that we can’t really sit around arguing over and over again about he is potentially on steroids and how it affects the overall feeling toward his accomplishments… when he hasn’t ever tested positive.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I take words as they're written.
And I’ve paid a lot more attention to the way folks get banned around here than you have because I’m in danger of getting banned and you aren’t. Yes?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
You’re probably right.
I’ve also looked over most of the bannings on this site, and most steroid conversations go from speculation to fighter bashing, and that’s the majority of those bannings.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, it's a logical step
…from “AO has gotten significantly bigger” and “AO is known as a dirty fighter” to “AO is a dirty steroid abuser that will cheat at every opportunity and probably abuses kittens.”
Or at least it is in my mind. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Well… if you said that… then YES, I would expect to be banned, wouldn’t you?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
But it’s logical, right? :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Historically
BE crew members have come into comments and said “X can’t be discussed” or “Please refrain from saying …” and then banned people for discussing it.
Since it seems that was not your intention, please realize in the future that your words carry more weight than a mere fan because you are part of the BE crew. When a member of the staff says “You can’t really say anything unless [insert qualifier]” then people are going to take you seriously. As you hopefully realize this site has built a serious reputation for its community decorum as a place for mature discussion so people will take your words as a staff member at face value.
by asa on Sep 28, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
LOL, give me a break.
I still don’t see how that sentence pertains to CONDUCT on the site. It pertains to the actual conversation. I don’t care what you guys discuss, as long as it doesn’t turn into a gigantic troll thread full of fighter bashing and arguments.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL, give me a break.
I still don’t see how that sentence pertains to CONDUCT on the site.
I thought the only conduct for this site’s members is posting comments and having discussions.
Sorry to trouble you.
If I could rec this to death I would
and then rec it back to life.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
I know, right?
It’s not as though this entire site is speculation….
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Yea, then look at the muscle Brock put on at jr college… (juco testing, if they do it at all, is a joke). You could see the change in the E60 documentary.
Dude, be careful
…even suggesting that Brock might have looked at a book that was written by somebody who once took a class from a teacher who was an expert on M204 user language and learned everything he knew from a shaman that shared an apple with a young lady who dated Jose Canseco is grounds for banning around here.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you roid up when you’re 20 and then stop, you don’t keep the mass for 10 years
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
Unless you keep working out for those 10 years.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Or, you know… he’s just a genetic freak.
BROCK has been tested who knows how many times. If he were a roider we would know by now.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
That's your opinion
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
It’s a fact that he hasn’t been caught. It’s your opinion that he hasn’t been caught because he’s not doing anything wrong.
It’s my opinion that he’s been very careful and lucky. Pretending that either is a fact is silly.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
And that, isn’t even a comment, let alone a statement of fact.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
And that’s two opinions, both incorrect.
If we keep going like this for another 6 months, I think you’ll learn the difference!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
JUCO’s are notorious amongst athletes for being a test free place to get big enough / good enough for D1. Baseball and football especially. I know D1 athletes who juiced in high school or JUCO and are now starting at BCS school with random drug testing.
HGH does not show up on random drug tests. You can do blood tests, but those dont hold up as they are not very accurate. Its fairly common knowledge amongst NFL insiders that a large portion of the players are on Growth. Athletes use HGH to maintain the gains they made on steroids such as Deca.
It would be naive not to acknowledge the fact that steroids run rapid in modern american high schools. Many of those kids find ways to keep the size on and go on to have successful athletic careers.
Im not saying Brock did and assume he didnt, just as I assume AO didnt. However, Im trying to point out that making huge gains in middle of your career opens your up to just as much speculation as an athlete who makes huge gains during his time in Jr College.
You can make the case for both guys being the best at those specific disiplines but then making a case for something isn’t too hard to do. I could write a 20 page article making the case as to why Frank Mir is the greatest heavyweight who ever lived but that wouldn’t cause it to be true. Both Strikeforce guys upped their profile with these performances but beyond that it is all just opinion.
by who me on Sep 28, 2009 10:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You really can’t. And it’s absurd that anybody is making the case that Overeem is the best heavyweight striker…
A.) Not all Heavyweight MMA fighters fight in K-1, so we don’t actually have any comparison other than K-1 fighters crossing over th MMA, which is highly unfair considering most don’t have the ground training that Overeem has.
B.) Overeem didn’t look like an elite striker. Most of the damage Aerts took was due to blocking the massive cinder blocks that he was throwing at Aerts. He busted up Aerts pretty good, but Overeem’s success truly hinged on his size. He used it to corner Aerts and close distance. Best striker? No way. No way.
If some writers want to suck in fans with that comparison, okay. If he beats Remy or Schilt convincingly in a striking war, I’ll make the claim then. Badr Hari is a bit wild, hence why Overeem was successful before, but Remy is one of the more honed strikers, and Schilt’s range will give Overeem problems. He beats them… I’ll give it to him.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Making the case for it can be absurd but as long as it get casual fan attention and ups the profile of the fighter involved then it would be successful. This isn’t something that lends itself to facts as much as it lends itself to hype and as far as selling a fight hype is more important.
Saying that one fighter is the best striker is already pure opinion, it is the equivalent of saying who makes the best peanut butter and jelly sandwich in the world. This is the PT Barnum side of the sport but it does tend to work.
I agree with your take on the issue. Overeem (and Werdum to an extent) is terribly over-rated but then most fighters who ride the hype train normally are. The really sad part is neither of the guys in question have that it factor that Brett Rogers has, the least impressive of the Strikeforce match ups will most likely draw the most attention.
by who me on Sep 28, 2009 12:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i agree
“they can also credibly say they have the best heavyweight striker in MMA and the best heavyweight grappler in MMA” is a huge stretch…. kinda laughable
by cagefightonacid on Sep 28, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Everybody that fights Fedor seems to be saying something very similar to this phrase:
I will never take an opportunity from a fighter to fight Fedor especially if the money is right and guaranteed.
“If the money is right” seems to be coming out of the mouth of every fighter being mentioned to fight Fedor.
If Strikeforce only has a few options to fight Fedor are they all going to start asking for more and more money as those options get smaller.
Just BE.
You know why that phrase is thrown around? Because most fighters, in my mind, believe it’s a losing fight for them, and they want to be compensated for the loss.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
But that wasn’t the part that Boon emphasized. He emphasized that he thought that he’d get cheated out of the money by M-1.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Money is always going to be a big issue in a Fedor fight now, the preceedent has been set that guys get extra pay to fight him so that is what future opponents will expect. Guys just don’t want to fight Fedor for their normal contract rate.
Different pay for different fights is a real mixed bag, it is good to see guys get big paydays for big fights but that brings money into the equation as to who fighters will accept fights with too. It is becoming an issue in the UFC concerning the ppv percentage fighters and it is going to be a real issue for Strikeforce in finding fights for Fedor that they can afford to do.
by who me on Sep 28, 2009 10:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
“Well if Fedor fights AO he will probably just take him down and sub him, and if he fights Werdum he will just knock him out.”
true :/
LOL… yeah, that doesn’t really matter. Go check out Mustapha Al Turk’s credentials at ADCC. And how good is he?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Mostapha al Turk was cage rage hw champ
by kanodogg on Sep 28, 2009 10:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Al Turk was the ADCC European Champion in 2005 as well.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
To his credit, he probably would have beaten Mirko without finger to eye technique, though Dos Santos upped Mirko one with knuckle to eye technique. Both are very effective techniques to finish a fight off. =)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
he probably would have beaten Mirko without finger to eye technique
LOL
Mirko was mauling him from the moment the bell rang. Eyepoke or not, Al Turk had nothing for him that night.
I was giving Al Turk SOME props. Fans don’t even want to give him a little respect…LOL.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i’ve never been one to say “oh, you can tell by how he looks that he’s juicing/using steroids….” but looking at old Alistair versus the way he looked against Aerts….I mean……no wonder the guy hasn’t fought here in 2 years….I think Werdum was dead on with his quote about the magic gummy bear/steroid usage.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/
by theworldsoldestsport on Sep 28, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
Actually, the logic failure is in your mind if you think K-1 strikers aren’t great strikers.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it was a typo.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Because MMA fighter have been uniformly destroyed
when they step into K1? Because K1 fighters have done when facing boxers?
Compared to boxing, or MMA for that matter, K1 fighter seem neither techically superior nor overly powerful.
The real story coming out of this weekend ....
,,, is when will Braulio Estima be making his MMA debut?
The best grappler in the world just got paid a measly $40K to win the most prestigious tournament in the sport. No wonder MMA is such an attractive career option for these guys. Estima’s double dip of Mundials HW championship and ADCC Absolute championship in the same calendar year should get him some nice paydays right out of the gate.
Sengoku or DREAM will make a play for him probably. They love BJJ black belts, and they are two of the few organizations in the world hording them up.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
My money is on Sengoku. They seem to be more willing o build fighters from the ground up, whereas DREAM usually picks ‘em up after their career is well on it’s way.
However, I think it is more likely he gets some experience in Brazilian MMA before he signs with one of the major North American or Japanese promoters.
You can jump around and make reasons all you want, but it still stands that for the first time in years there is a clear-cut #2 in the world who is a threat to the great Edor.
Neither Werdum or Overeem are threats to Edor, don’t try and tell me that they are.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Sep 28, 2009 10:34 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ok, Bernoober.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Sep 28, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Great
More reasons for Overeem to shoot up the HW rankings without fighting.
Vinny Magahalis= Top 3 Grappler in the World!
Vinny Magahalis= Borderline Top-80 LHW!
Vinny at least competed in the absolute.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I'm not ripping on Vinny
I’m just trying to make a point on how incredibly retarded it is to give fighters credit in the MMA world when they do well in competitions that aren’t MMA.
by GoldenOldie on Sep 28, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand that Dustin Hazelett is trying out for the Olympic table tennis team.
Will he get a bump??
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
I was comparing Vinny to Werdum and how can Werdum be the best grappler in the world when he didn’t even compete in the hardest of all the ADCC brackets.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
In my opinion, JDS is a better challenger than either of these guys.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
Overeem is more dangerous IMO..
I’m a huge Dos Santos fan, but I think he needs to work on fighting at the clinch position better..
…and in an unrelated note, Capt. Canada is going to sleep, just like what people his age always does..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I think Overeem is more dangerous with his size nowadays. The only downside is that Overeem is very slow now.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
He's slow but I'm hoping he's the one that bullies fedor when they clinch.
Fedor usually has the advantage there and that’s how he usually sets up takedowns, but maybe alistair’s size could negate that..
And IF he lands a powershot, it’s night night fedor.. The only issue is IF he lands it, or If fedor “sylvias” him early..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
If Overeem clinches with Fedor on the regular … he will lots of frequent flier miles.
Clinching with Fedor is a BAD idea.
i wasn't saying he should clinch with fedor,
all im saying is that maybe since he’s huge and pretty decent in the clinch, he wouldn’t have as much trouble as others.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
JDS stopped CroCop without a single testicle strike, and that has to count for something.
On an unrelated note…
Ole lazy eyes is going to get dropped faster than Tito’s “Hooked on Phonics” course.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
I'll never beat you at one liners..
I don’t know why I’m even trying. Hahaha.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Just like Vera will never beat Randy at fighting, cause even at 47, Randy is twice the fighter Vera will ever be.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
That kind of thinking will make you become an honorary Filipino in BE.. Haha :)
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I have been against Werdum getting a shot at Fedor ever since he showed up out of shape and got KOed by dos Santos. But I have to admit, him being in shape and beating all those guys in ADCC does make him a credible opponent again in my eyes..
And overeem, Ive always Wanted to see him fight fedor because his size, strength and striking could pose some interesting problems to fedor, who usually decides to stands up with his opponents…
That being said, I still think that Overeem and Werdum should NOT rise up the rankings by winning some non-MMA bouts.. But I guess saying that is pointless as once they announce the fight, they’re bound to have ‘the fedor effect’ and climb up the ranks anyway..
LOL, are you kidding yourself?
People have been rising Overeem up the ranks for no apparent reason. Look at the IWMMAR rankings, for instance. There is no reason at all for Overeem to be ranked in the top ten on ANY MMA ranking. He hasn’t beat anyone… Gary Goodridge, Mark Hunt, Paul Buentello. Give me a break.
For some reason, people feel the need to push fantasy match-ups in their head and put fighters where they THINK they should go.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
What? Why am I kidding myself?
We have the same exact point.. Alistair shouldn’t rise up the rankings, but he has.. And he’s bound to rise even more once they announce a fight with Fedor.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
In fact, AO dropped in those rankings this month, so neither of you are making much sense. Which is odd since Leland is one of the people who votes on them.
Meanwhile, Brett Rogers has risen because he’s fighting Fedor. As usual.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
How is it odd? I haven’t voted Overeem in the top ten, and I fail to see why he’s in the top ten, even on the rankings that I vote on.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
It's odd that you didn't notice him dropping from 6th to 8th and are arguing the opposite when you're one of the people involved.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
How am I arguing the opposite? Opposite of what?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
You said:
“People have been rising Overeem up the ranks for no apparent reason. Look at the IWMMAR rankings, for instance.”
In August, AO was 6th in the IWMMAR HW rankings. In September, he’s 8th.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
Yeah, except NOTHING warrants him being in the top ten at ALL.
There isn’t one convincing argument for Overeem being in the top ten. He actually ROSE from 7 to 6 without even fighting from July to August.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
If you want to complain about those ratings
…start with Brett Rogers.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Or
You know, make them better, since you’re on the team.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
I do my part. I make my ranking and vote. I can’t SWAY the entire ranking.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
That isn’t in the context of the conversation. We were talking about Overeem. I have a lot of problems with where certain fighters are ranked within the logic of the rules of the ranking. Rogers would be one, but I rank him above AA. If you go purely on W-L, AA is still up there.
If you base everything on bias and pure speculation, anything can happen. Overeem can rise from 7 to 6 in a month without fighting apparently.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I think both Rogers and Carwin should be ranked.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
In the top 10?
I dunno about that. BR has one good win on his record – AA. And right now, nobody has any idea how good AA actually is, though Dana is slowly sliding from crazy to prophetic on getting rid of old Andrei.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Ummmm....
Huh?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Affliction threw so much money at AA that the UFC wasn’t going to match it. Dana wanted to keep him at the time, just not for that much money.
"That feeling after you win and they raise your hand... it's like you have this energy that releases from your body, and it's like you mingle with the cosmos, and you feel omnipotent"
Maybe it was mistaken for smokescreen and sour grapes at the time, but Dana had a lot of “Andrei is on the downward slope” talk at the time… Or maybe it really was sour grapes. Hard to say.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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http://www.mmaconvert.com/2008/05/13/dana-white-the-ufc-want-andrei-arlovski-back/
Dana was trying to re-sign Arlovski but couldn’t get the deal done, Affliction offered too much money. He didn’t really talk bad about him like that until after the Fedor/Rogers losses.
And then Brett Can surpass him, also without fighting, and purely on the basis of being signed to fight Fedor.
(And since we’re talking about Fedor challengers, BR is just as germane as anyone else.)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Overall, I have noticed most sites do this. They rank the challenger #2 when it’s announced, which is complete bullshit. Some guys go from #5-#10 to #2 because it was announced that they are now the challenger. I don’t understand why sites think that it has to be a #1 vs. #2 match-up.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Kidding yourself line was just in regards to the thinking behind it. We are arguing the same point.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Overeem Best HW striker in MMA?
Well lets see what he’s done in MMA:
Chuck beat the shit out of him…
Shogun beat the shit out of him…
Kharitonov beat the shit out of him…
I dont think that makes for being “the best HW striker in MMA”.
Same for Werdum… ADCC and K-1 does not determine your success in MMA. YOUR SUCCESS IN MMA DETERMINES IT.
Brett Rogers is head and shoulders above these guys in MMA and even he’s a joke fight for Fedor.
This is like saying the greatest HORSE player or Dunker in the world is a “legitimate” contender in European basket ball leagues or NBA.
Look , I have a hard time defending Overeem since I don’t believe he’ll fight in the U.S soon (at least not untill he’s sure his blood is clear) but those losses were in the past . Way past. Overeem became a physical freak since then , and beat the best strikers K-1 had to offer (lost a close decision to Remmy) , and made a nice winning streak in mma . The no contest thing with Cro Cop was bullshit Cro Cop was a few minutes from going to sleep.
He definitely deserves a top 10 ranking imo.
Why?
Justify a top ten ranking to me. He beat Goodridge, Buentello, and Hunt. How does he rank in the top ten at all? He doesn’t.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
But he’s fighting in Japan, the land of magic, dragons and Pokemon!
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
And Gummy Beary Juice.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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And he beat Cro Cop ,not technically , but can u argue that he didn’t butcher him? . In my opinion you can’t ignore the way the fighter looked in his fights when you judge these thigns , for example if he only got split decisions wins no one would rank him that high , but he didn’t . He looked impressive in those fights. So even if Cro Cop stopped fighting because of those controversial groin blows and the fight was a no contest , there was no doubt left that Overeem was killing him . I think that should be accounted for when you rank a figher.
He’s lucky he didn’t get DQed in that fight.
Not technically, but who cares, all that matters is the w’s and the l’s
No I don’t think that’s all that matters , it matters a lot but it also matters the way you fought . For example imagine Shane Carwin only had hard fought decision wins , would anyone rank him and give him a title shot after he barely beats Gonzaga? The wins aren’t always enough , they do count but not for everything. Imagine Brock struggling against Herring and looking like crap , would he get a shot against Couture ? The win says a lot but also the way you fought , and it affects everything – the way the fans , media and the ranking system perceives you.
Does it matter that Cro Cop has been on a downhill slide for years?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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It matters if you want it to matter – for example when the UFC will try to hype Junior Dos Santos that win will matter . But if you asked Dana White about Overeem beating Cro Cop he’ll say Cro Cop is crap . This isn’t science , everyone is using the ‘facts’ to their advantage. In some cases it’s very easy – everyone knows Anderson Silva is number 1 , GSP is number 1 , etc . But when you talk about the heavyweights , especially in the 5-10 places , things get a bit subjective imo .
I don’t know how you can say the result of the fight doesn’t matter but ignore the fact that it could very well have been a DQ. Because of that fact, and the fact that it was not a win, I don’t think we should be crediting the guy for mauling Cro Cop.
Did he beat him down? yes, did he win? No. What would have happened if he didn’t break Cro Cop’s nut? Who knows, that’s why we should probably just ignore that fight.
If you want to use that he was impressive before the ball strikes to give him a little credit, that’s fine, but to treat the fight like a KO victory and use it to put him in the top 10 is completely stupid.
It is also completely stupid to rank fighters in a MMA ranking based on non-MMA fights.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Yet why is it stupid to rank them , but giving them almost immediate title shots isn’t ? (Think BJ Penn too…) , unless you completely disagree with giving Brock and BJ Penn such immediate title shots , in that case I can’t argue with you.
No, giving them immediate title shots IS STUPID.
You can’t have it both ways, man. You either want a purist view where the BEST fighter available fights for the title, or you simply want the intriguining match-ups that have some marketability factor involved. It’s rare that you have the BEST available fighter ALSO have the marketability.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
with brock it was right place right time. Having the two obvious choices to fight randy already set to meet after the TUF show and most other HWs either on the rise (cain, shane) or loss quite recently (congo, herring). Brock came in a looked good in his loss and battered herring. At the time there was no one else to really put there
He didn’t beat CC. It was a no contest. You can say “technically” all you want, but it didn’t go down as a win, and it shouldn’t justify a top ten ranking.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
You have a UFC champ that got his title shot after being 2-1 (1-1 in the UFC) , based mostly on his physique , wrestling abilities and being a celebrity , and with the help of a very weak division. Overeem is only being ranked in the lower top ten , at best , based on his last winning streak , his K-1 accomplishments , his physique (yes , I do believe it subconsciously affects the way we perceive fighters) and the still very weak heavyweights division…
Who should be there ranked instead of Overeem ? Where is he ranked anyway?
Overeem shouldn’t be ranked at all in the top ten, and his K-1 accomplishments should not be a part of the formula, nor should his physique. His accomplishments in the MMA ring are all that matter.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
But JM brings up a good point: every time somebody talks about Brock, they bring up his NCAA credentials.
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The only reason Brock is so high is because people ranked Mir so high after beating Nogueira. It comes down to whether or not you want to play the leapfrog game or not. To be consistent, you have to choose one or the other, and it’s tough as shit to put value on fights and outcomes when you don’t use it.
That’s the only reason Brock is truly that high.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
And for what it’s worth, Brock wasn’t ranked in the top 10 until he beat Randy.
IF Overeem beats a top fighter, then we can have a discussion.
So they gave a title shot to a guy that isn’t even in the top ten ? That doesn’t say good things about the UFC then …
Uhh. yeah, they did.
They gave him the shot due to his WWE popularity. He was given the shot based on marketing strategy vs. actual skills.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Sep 28, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
The thjng is… Brock was actually a real threat to Couture (he was the betting favorite at one point!).
Carwin is a real threat to Brock (probably the biggest out there).
Brett Rogers, overeem and werdum pose virtually no threats to Fedor.
Dont believe me? look at the betting odds.
The difference is in the UFC the fighters get challenged with the biggest threats out there.
Fedor plays the “boxing: the pick and choose your opponents” game very well which fools internet fan boys in thinking they are “legitimate” challenges.
You compare Brock/Couture to Overeem/Fedor…
Brock/Couture was a pickem fight… the odds were around even.
Go ask what the lines would be for Fedor/overeem. Laughable.
To give you an example: Brett Rogers is the best challenge Fedor will face outside of the UFC and Fedor opened at -675.
Other people compare Brett Rogers/Fedor to Carwin/Lesnar because both Rogers and Carwin are undefeated. It’s not even close… Look at the lines for Carwin/Lesnar – it’s almost even.
Now to make this whole thing proportional so you dont say “well Fedor would be favored that way against everyone”… look at the odds Bodog released if Fedor vs Brock were to happen by oct. 10th:
Brock Lesnar +190 vs. Fedor Emelianenko -240
It’s not all about the rankings some internet fanboys create.
Don’t see your point , it’s indeed too bad that Fedor isn’t fighting Lesnar but what can u do ? Fedor’s odds against Carwin/Gonzaga/Mir/Nogueira/Couture/anyone not named BROCKLESNAR would be about the same as against Rogers or Overeem.
The Lesnar fight , has been discussed so many times I’m not sure if we want to go there.
Correct
Current Odds:
Fedor Emelianenko -575
Brett "The Grim" Rogers +375
The Roger’s line is moving up. Also, of course Fedor would be the favorite against anyone, and the odds would be just the same, anyone not named Brock.
Brock Lesnar -300
Shane Carwin +240
Seems like both Lesnar and Fedor are heavy favorites to me. Everything else is semantics.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing to do with Fedor vs Lesnar…
Im talking about your point of comparing Overeem fighting Fedor to Lesnar getting the shot at couture based on somebody’s rankings or previous fights.
When the lines came out lesnar/couture was close to even … what do you think the lines will be in the overeem/fedor fight?
To give you a comparison Brett Rogers who is more accomplished in MMA than overeem opened with Fedor at -675.
My point is Lesnar was a huge challenge for Couture… Overeem, brett rogers, werdum isnt for Fedor.
Then my 2nd point was there are other people who compare Brett fighting Fedor to being the same thing as Carwin fighting Brock. The smart people say NO. Oddsmakers opened the lines with brock at less than -200 and Fedor opened up at -675.
Obviously Brock is being challenged more than Fedor is so people cant really compare Brett fighting Fedor with Carwin fighting Brock.
My 3rd point illustrated the odds for Brock vs Fedor so the excuse can’t be “well Fedor would be that much of a favorite against anyone” because clearly that’s NOT the case.
Fedor Emelianenko -575
Brett “The Grim” Rogers +375
Brock Lesnar -300
Shane Carwin +240
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't deserve a top ten MMA ranking!
The fact that it is called MMA rankings should already be obvious why.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 28, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This man is correct.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Sep 28, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
Did you just say Rogers is shoulders above Werdum? WOW.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Overeem, Werdum Find Success Outside of MMA
if Strikeforce can succeed in matching up Fedor with Rogers, Werdum and Overeem they will be providing a legitimate roster of opponents for MMA’s #1 heavyweight.
That’s true. However, I just don’t have any interest in watching Fedor fight Fabricio Werdum. This is not a new-found excellence in grappling, that’s been the skill on which he’s hung his hat for as long as I can recall. So it was when he lost to Andrei Arlovski, so it was when he was railroaded by Junior Dos Santos. While Werdum is certainly a legitimate top 10 (or at worst, top 15) Heavyweight, I think it’s difficult to consider him a legitimate threat to Fedor.
You might say “you don’t consider Werdum a legitimate threat to Fedor but you consider Rogers and Overeem legitimate threats?” Well, no, but they have advantages in making their matches with Fedor compelling that Werdum lacks. Overeem has improved exponentially since he was in PRIDE, and his striking is such that it’s at least plausible that he could catch Fedor (I mean, if Arlovski could win for a time on the feet…). Rogers, on the other hand, while lacking techincal striking, has power to give and enjoys an undefeated record. While I strongly doubt he’s legitimately a top heavyweight (i.e. in the same discussion as Fedor and Brock), it’s at least plausible to consider that he might wind up there. Undefeated records will do that.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Sep 28, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
ADCC doesnt pay BUT K-1 DOES.
I dont expect Overeem to fight Fedor unless the fight’s in Japan and Overeem gets paid a shit load of money. Hence, I dont expect the fight to happen… unless he starts losing all of his K-1 fights – in which case a fight that makes no sense would be even more hard to swallow.
The funny thing is those who actually think these guys are “legitimate” challengers for Fedor may not even get to see it.
Anyone who isn’t willing to say he has improved drastically since those losses is blind..Id say his improvement is much a kin to Belfort’s resurgence
More overrated than A.O…..Carwin, Forrest Griffin, Brett Rogers, Rampage, Franklin, Babalu, etc.
I love it
Carwin was getting rocked by gonzaga (his only legit opponent) until he recovered and rocked him…Carwin has beaten 1 legit dude, 1. And even that fight could have turned out very differently…I have a good feeling that if Carwin wasn’t with Greg Jackson or Trevor, he wouldn’t be getting much respect at all….
Forrest (tuff winner) beat the crap out of Shogun the PRIDE GRAND PRIX WINNER.
If Overeem improved so much let him prove it in MMA and then you can make your claims…
Belfort just proved it by decapitating Rich Franklin and Lindland.
logic, i usually agree 99.% with what you say..I even read your comments as if it were its own blog but
we both know that wasn’t the same Shogun that won the Pride GP….just look at his fight with Coleman, who’s 214 years old.
Shogun vs Machida will tell us a lot about where he’s at these days….
So was that guy overeem fought and got disqualified against the same crocop that won the pride gp?
again sure Overeem has improved… but how much? we dont know.
Let him first prove it before we start placing him above guys who have actually done something in MMA.
carwin could put him on his back… same with Mir. Both guys would be favored over AO.
Shogun was able to take him down. A big HW wrestler will be able to do it easier in the cage. If his muscles are real and its a drug tested bout you can tire him out and turn him into a blue belt striker with 3 minutes of grappling.
sure alistair could be the best out there… so could my cleaning lady. nobody knows because he hasnt proven anything significant in MMA yet.
I want to see Alistair in a sanctioned MMA bout against a top 10 HW before I can even consider him over any of the guys who have been.
I Will Take It A Bit Further...
Werdum
Jacare
Galvao
Cyborg Santos
…all had GREAT showings in ADCC for Strikeforce. This is without Roger Gracie competing, who would be considered the best Grappler in the world (who is now scheduled to fight the Nov. 20th event in Strikeforce).
Mousasi and Overeem have already shown to be successful in K-1, so Strikeforce should have no problems in marketing that they have some of the best grapplers and strikers in MMA.
Xande had a great showing as well (Sengoku) and Braulio Estima was a stud and a rising star.
For those that say K-1 or ADCC doesn’t matter because its not MMA. I can guarantee you that 99% of people now want to see Estima in MMA and will be highly touted, just like Jacare and Galvao were. MMA is mixed martial arts, so when someone excels at a certain discipline, it will get people talking.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Not next, Nov. 20th is his target date now if his training goes well and injuries are behind him. Nothing is 100%, as we should be well aware of with Roger, but he should be fighting for Strikeforce before the end of the year.
"I have plans to fight, maybe on November 20. I still don’t have an opponent, but if my knee is good and I could train until then, I think there’s a lot of chances of me to fight this until this day".
I think they are looking for him to be the main event of a Challengers show. I think Kim Couture vs Kerry Vera is scheduled for that date as well.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I will believe Roger is fighting when he steps into the cage.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
LOL
He has a contract, he will have to fight at one point or another…
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Cung Le was given the okay by Coker to do the movies and promote Strikeforce at the same time. He, along with Rogers, will be fighting soon enough.
Rampage is Rampage.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Rampage doesn’t want to. Cung Le does.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You dont have to fight if you have a contract… even if you’re a full fledged employee you dont have to fight.
So simply count how many fights Roger has pulled out of and you can predict if he’ll actually fight…
lose count yet?
Yeah, yeah. We all know that. All I am saying is that he signed a contract to fight, and he has intentions to, so he will.
Obviously he had a contract with Sengoku before, wasn’t happy wit them, and he signed with Strikeforce.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Sep 28, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
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