The Anderson Silva Problem
by Mike Fagan on Sep 3, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
in MMA News
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As Randy Couture might say, Anderson Silva poses some interesting problems. Those problems, however, won't be solved by another fighter in the cage. They'll have to be solved by UFC President Dana White and matchmaker Joe Silva.
We have quite a few variables at play. One, Silva probably will retire from MMA following the last 3 fights on his contract. At the very least, he will want to explore a boxing match with Roy Jones Jr. Two, he seems to only want big fights. Three, he will not fight Lyoto Machida (or other Black House partners). Four, he wants to take some time off to heal his body.
With the time off and resistance to fighting both Nate Marquardt or Dan Henderson, the two contenders should fight at UFC 105 for a shot at the belt. That would line up a title fight sometime in February or March.
Now's the hard part. You could have Silva fight Mauricio Rua should he fall to Machida or you could have him fight the loser of Quinton Jackson-Rashad Evans. Silva presents a difficult matchup, however, for guys who will be looking to get back in contention. Would any of them be apprehensive about taking a fight that could have them with two consecutive losses in a shark tank of a division?
Finally, there's the trickling rumors of Silva fighting at heavyweight. Frank Mir's name has been thrown around, which is probably the best combination of name value and expendability. There are numerous guys who could fill a James Irvin role, but those don't capture the imagination. You also don't want to derail upcoming prospects like Cain Velasquez.
My dream scenario would have Silva fight Brock Lesnar as his last fight with the company. If you want to build to this, you throw him a guys like Mir, Cheick Kongo, or Mirko Cro Cop, all fights I would expect Silva to win. This sets up a huge main event for 2010's year-end show.
There are a myriad of issues why Zuffa might oppose the fight, and I'm willing to address those in the comments. However, I think there's a great story at play. Anderson Silva, MMA's pound-for-pound king for 3 years running, looks to achieve MMA nirvana by defeating the most physically imposing challenge of his career and retiring with the UFC heavyweight belt.
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I just don’t see how they would let him leave with the HW belt. What if, after the RJJ fight, he decides to return and fight Fedor? Might not be likely, but would the UFC even risk it?
Well, why would they be wiling to risk it with Machida?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Are you saying they would let Machida fight Lesnar? Or are you saying they would be willing to have Anderson fight Silva? Confused by the question. Would they let Machida fight Lesnar? Would they let Machida fight him on the last one or two fights of his contract, and leave open the possibility he could the leave the UFC and end up fighting outside the UFC with the unofficial title of the UFC HW Champ? My guess, as for Anderson fighting Machida is that the LHW title wouldn’t be as damaging as losing the HW title. But you tell me, you know more about this then me.
“Or are you saying they would be willing to have Anderson fight Silva?”
Now come on, I know the guy is fast but I don’t think he’s quick enough to fight himself.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 3, 2009 8:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dana’s stated that he would want Machida and Silva to fight.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
He should vacate the strap
If Silva wants to fight other fights outside of his division, huzzah for him. it will be compelling and fun and I will plunk down cash to see him fight any of those guys. But Dana White owes it to every fighter up and down the 185 lbs division to have an active champion ready to defend his title against all up and comers.
Anderson Silva has cleared out his division. There is nobody left for him to fight. So let the belt go, let Nate and Hendo fight for it, and allow the Spider to ride off into greatness by jumping up and down in weight to try and become the greatest fighter ever.
The belt is holding both the UFC and Anderson Silva back. Vacate the title, let the 185ers have a champion who will stay and fight them and let Silva search for immortality at LHW and HW.
by mason_beer on Sep 2, 2009 9:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good call.
Dammit I wish he had 5 more fights instead of 3, I’m still a little peeved about wasting his fights on Cote and Leites.
But yeah. Though I’m more intrigued about a fight with Marquardt (less of a chance of him gassing, more improvement in his skills) you can’t deny that Anderson has cleared these dudes out and beaten them with an exclamation mark.
Vacate the title means no more champions clause and he could leave to take the RJJ fight.
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
This has got to be pissing Dana off. Anderson is going to clear out the 205 contenders but wont fight for the title.
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
Am I the only one who thinks that Dana can keep him around for the right price?
by Zack Gobie on Sep 2, 2009 9:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think he can too. I think a lot of this retirement talk is posturing for more monies.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I used to think that might be the case, but I’m not so sure. I saw an interview with him after the Big Nog fight, he seemed very sincere about retiring. He said he hasn’t been with his family and children since he went to camp for the Forrest fight, once he was done with the fight he was back helping Big Nog for the Randy fight. He seemed very sincere about wanting to have more time with his family and kids, that he’s missing out on a lot and that he just wants to fulfill his contract and quit. This is the reason he’s taking time off, not because he doesn’t want to fight either Hendo nor Marquardt (btw, he said he has 4 fights left, not three, I don’t know who to believe, because even his manager says he has 3).
I know it will never happen
But a Spider vs. Dragon showdown at 205 would be balls
If he wants to drop the MW title i say let him, if he wants to move up to Heavyweight let him like how many fights has he won. What i see from him is that he doesn’t care about MW; i believe if he fights Nate or Hendo he might just lose the title on purpose, He has all ready lost one fight; you can’t win them all; and just move up to HW; if he fights Cro Cop, he loses
2 things..
Silva hasn’t lost inside the octagon. Silva hasn’t loss in over 3 years. His last loss was not an actual loss but a DQ (Okami fight). So if you take that DQ out he really hasn’t loss since Chonan in 2004 which means it’s been over 5 years..
Cro Cop/Silva fight isn’t an automatic win for Mirko.. Silva moves faster and cuts better angles.. Mirko hasn’t been impressive in the octagon yet. I doubt he will be in today’s HW division.. But I also doubt Silva will be going to HW in all honesty. Not that Silva wouldn’t accept, but that Dana was just quoted as saying he wont let Silva fight at HW. He said he would let him fight RJJ before he let him go to HW.
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
All the fights you mentioned are interesting to me except for the Lesnar fight. I would rather see a GSP/Spider fight than Silva fight Brock. While there is a very real possibility that his striking will give Lesnar huge amounts of trouble, there is also a very real possiblity that it could end in commanding fashion via gorilla punches with Lesnars hand being raised.
I would love to see striking battles involving the likes of Kongo and Cro Cop. Those types of fights have the potential to be exciting finishes, expecially with his career coming rapidly to an end.
To the people who want to see GSP-Silva, I ask this: Why do you want to see St. Pierre against a guy who outweighs him by 40 pounds, and who has knocked out larger men without really breaking a sweat? Even Anderson tried his luck against James Irvin first; you won’t afford. GSP the same privilege…maybe a fight against Alan Belcher or something?
But you say right below......
a Lesnar/Carwin loser bout? How much do you think Lesnar outweighs Silva by?
Brazilian on French crime doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 3, 2009 8:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the weight you walk around at is not in shape weight. Its Ive been partying for 4 weeks since my last fight and am fat weight.
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
I’m wondering how you know that Silva outweighs GSP by 40 pounds. GSP looks to me like he walks around at about 185 pounds, maybe more. Anderson looks to me to walk around at about 205 to 210.
Also, size is really only one facet of a fight. Anderson excels at fighting bigger guys because he can pepper them as they’re coming in. Spider looked like the matrix compared to Forrest and Irvin (and all the big middles). GSP would therefore be that much quicker and hard to get close to. Since I’ve never seen anyone stop GSP’s takedown, I’d be interested in seeing how Anderson would do. With his less than par take down defense, it’s a distinct possibility that GSP could wrestle him down and control from the top for a lot of the fight.
No one executes a plan like GSP does. If he could gain some quality weight and retain his speed, he very well likely might be able to run a proper game plan. Unlike Forrest and Dan who really didn’t seem to stick to one. This is why I’m curious to see them both go at it. But if I were forced, I’d put all my money on Anderson.
GSP in interviews has said he’s a natural 185lber. Fitch and Alves are bigger than him (190+). Silva I’ll ballpark at 215. So 30 lbs. not 40. Depends on Silva’s weight.
That sounds about right. I’d say 30 pounds at the most, but given that GSP could put on at least 10 pounds of quality weight, you’re looking at about 15-20 pounds difference. Still a lot of weight but not if GSP has a speed advantage.
I’m the biggest GSP nuthugger around but there’s no way he’s faster than Silva.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 2, 2009 11:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
but could he take him down? I think yes.
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
Well actually....
I have seen many reports that puts GSP at 190-192 between fights and Anderson 220 and as much as 225. And they both look in good shape at that. That said, at 5’10 to Andersons 6’2, the reach, speed, timing and footwork of Anderson tell me it would be a striking clinic and if GSP did get a tekdown, it would be short lived and ineffective ala Dan Henderson.
After his last fight he said he walks around at 185. It would be interesting if he actually managed to put back on all the wieght he cuts pre fight.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 3, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the reports you are reading are exaggerated. Rogan often claims that Thiago Alves cuts 30+ lbs (over 200 lbs on fight night). I’m quite skeptical that fighters can cut 30 pounds.
GSP and Koscheck each have said that they fight from 185-187. Florian was only cutting 8 pounds a couple of fights ago.
Even the LHWs don’t typically cut from 230 LBs which would be 25 pounds – I had read something in the past year where Tito said he’d cut from under 220 pounds and he’s generally considered large.
When you have HWs weighing under 230 LBs still looking a bit larger than competing LHWs, you really have to wonder how much guys the LHWs weigh in at on FN. Vera was at 203 before one of his fights and didn’t even have to cut weight in his first or second fight at LHW – was he really giving up 20+ pounds?
Its well known
That Griffin cuts from 235 and 240 between fights. Not saying he can do that a week before the fight, no. But it has become something of an art lately.
Silva walks around at 225 range
This has been shown in his training..
Anderson Would get taken down by GSP at some point. No one would argue that.. But GSP could not do anything to Silva once it hit the mat. Silva is too big & too long. Silva would tie GSP up in a body triangle and force the standup.. At some point GSP is going to have to get in an exchange with Silva to set up a takedown.. That’s where the problem lay.. Silva connects and it’s curtains for GSP.. Silva will connect….
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Not so sure about this....
GSP loves using the can opener from guard, and using a body triangle is great at stopping guard passing until you get neck cranked…
That said, I was a little more high on GSP’s chances before the Forrest fight, now I don’t want to see the fight as much as before as Silva would KTFO Georges imo.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 3, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
It wont work on Silva
Due to his length.. His torso & legs are longer than GSP’s .. So if he has GSP in a body triangle, GSP wont have enough length to effectively use the can opener on him.. Not to mention if he did posture up like that , It leaves Silva the option to sweep him with the triangle..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I agree with the idea that Anderson Silva, if he only wants “big fights,” should vacate the middleweight championship and fight at Light Heavyweight and Heavyweight. I don’t, however, agree with the notion that it poses that many problems. Big fights? Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell. Done, done, and done. Fights at heavyweight? CroCop, Gonzaga, Mir/Kongo loser, Velasquez/Rothwell loser, Lesnar/Carwin loser. Done, done, done, done, and done. I don’t see what the big deal is – Big Fights don’t have to be synonymous with title fights.
Silva fighting and possibly winning the HW belt is not something I want to really see. That being said, if he chooses to stay fighting above MW, he should give up the belt. However, I don’t know how the UFC would feel about that. I suppose it all depends on if he retires with a belt or not. If he retires with a belt, the championship clause would hold him in check. If he retires without a belt, he can fight Roy, and I don’t know how enthusiastic the UFC would be about their P4P king, who basically destroyed three divisions, to potentially be beaten by Roy. Worse, KO’d by him. You know the Boxing vs MMA people would have a field day.
I love me some Sexyama!
I don’t believe he is going to retire at all. Dana also said in the last day he is completely opposed to Anderson at heavyweight.
Your scenario would be a cool one for fans. It would be terrible for the UFC though, and it will never happen. If Anderson wants Brock, he is going to have to sign an extension.
I no longer believe he is interested in the Jones thing. He probably made close to as much fighting Forrest as he would against Jones, it was always about money when he was mad about his payoffs in 2008.
The real problem is we have a whole bunch of primadonnas.
Anderson who won’t do rematches of successful title defenses, unlike the champions before him, and who wants to clear out a division without fighting the champion.
Dan Henderson who is only willing to fight at 185 if it’s Anderson.
The ideal situation to me is paying Anderson and Machida off to fight each other. I roll my eyes at “never,” it’s always a matter of money, no matter what people want to believe. If they’re willing to fight, you can move Anderson up to 205 to have him fight all those guys. Basically it would take signing Anderson and Lyoto to the same mega contract Randy signed last week, plus a huge one time payoff.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i think among the black house fighters, machida and silva are the two that have the biggest possibility of fighting..
Machida usually bases his camp separate from the blackhouse guys anyway.. so it’s just a matter of giving the right amount of cash for them to put aside their friendship for one fight.
now in the case of the AKA guys or other blackhouse vs blackhouse, that’s pretty different cause all of them train in one gym and have the same trainers and sparring partners..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 2, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Even then, I’m telling you, if they offered Fitch and Koscheck 8 million dollars purse to split to fight they would sign up to fight each other with guns if necessary. The problem is that fight isn’t worth what it would take to get them to fight. It’s a good question whether Machida vs. Anderson is either.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The AKA guys will never ever make that much money. Fitch banked 160k (in the 200 range with bonuses and sponsorship) with his title fight with GSP. They’d fight each other only for the title or if the money was really really high.
i think you missed his point. he said you give fitch and kos tons of cash and theyd do whatever it would take to fight that fight.
by sadface on Sep 2, 2009 10:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think you understood what I wrote.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Mix-up. I agree with your premise and idea. It’s just that it sounds like Anderson wants a ton of $ to fight Machida. Even at seven figures he still may be hesitant. I guarantee Kos,Swick and Fitch sign that bout agreement if they’re getting paid 1,000,000+
I definitely don't think it's just a matter of money
Maybe for Anderson. But not for Machida. He’s not in it for the money. He’s not a prima donna. He just won’t do the fight. Full stop.
The man has a different mentality.
I havent heard Machida say he wouldn't though..
The only talk I have heard has come from Anderson saying he wouldn’t fight Machida..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
machida has said that several times too..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions
you should be ashamed of yourself..
i would’ve expected another person to have asked that, but not THE biggest machida nut in town..
good thing it was easy to find haha
Anderson is a great fighter and a great athlete. I think he would do well against anyone in any weight class. He is my friend and we train together when possible, and for that reason I would not fight Anderson.
fight line
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I ask because I hadn’t seen Machida talking about it anywhere. Thanks for the link.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
i know, i'm just trying to piss you off a bit.. :P
I think he also said that a couple of other times too, but i can’t find the link..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
ofcourse, 8 million bucks may make Kos fight Fitch's mom even. haha.
but for the right money, i think both of them (silva/machida) would agree.. if the UFC thinks they’re worth splitting huge bucks, like 8 mill, maybe they’d do it..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 2, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean Silva probably made around 2 million for the Forrest fight.
I was just throwing a random figure. There is a question of what Anderson vs. Machida would even draw on PPV. If it’s a fight for hardcores, it may really just do something like 600k, at which point there are questions of whether it’s worth it.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i think if machida beats up shogun handily, and silva beats winner of marquardt/hendo,
it becomes real interesting even for casuals..
Champion vs. Champion matches are real easy to market. Like how hendo wasn’t a draw but when he held the pride belts, casuals tuned in to watch..
granted his fight against rampage was on free tv, but that was years ago, and the UFC even draws more fans now. Also, I think if both of them go on a tear, and wreck their next opponents, it could be big enough to be like GSP vs Penn in terms of buys if they market it well..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 2, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it depends on what the new average for PPV buys is.
Buys have all been very high lately. If Silva and Machida keep destroying people on cards with 1 million + PPV buys, I think they could do at least 1 million on their own. I’m not saying they would do 1 million tomorrow, but if the numbers hold where they are now, and they each look great on future cards that do well, they could probably do a huge number on their own.
I have this feeling like maybe it isn’t about the money. Obviously I don’t know the guy, but I have the feeling that maybe he can’t be bought on certain things. I know I’d fight almost anyone for the right money, but I probably wouldn’t fight my brother.
It could be true. Though $4,000,000 is hard to turn down. There’s a huge risk though if they put on this fight,and fix the fight with each other or fight very passively. Imagine if a kick to the groin causes a no contest. They still pocket the cash and no one gets a loss on their record.
Just make sure he’s not fighting Sean Salmon.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 2, 2009 11:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But you see fighting as something different than what they do, they do it for a living. For the right money, they’ll fight. All of the never stuff is posturing.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I know, but I think if I were a professional fighter, and Dana offered me like 10 million to fight my brother, I really think I’d turn it down. I’m not a huge money guy though. I like the stuff but I feel no desire to be rich.
But from the videos and interviews I see of Anderson, even though he fights for a living, I do get the impression that he can’t be bought on certain things. He just seems to know what he wants and be insulated from outside pressures. Of course I could be wrong though. If we were talking about Kos and Fitch, Rashad and Keith, I’d say they’d probably fight for the right money. I totally could be wrong about that though.
I mean, we can all say this, but Anderson’s been throwing temper tantrums about money for a long time now. He threatened to leave once to get a better contract, and will probably do it again. I fully believe some of his performances were public tantrums too. If you asked the UFC if Anderson’s the kind of guy that doesn’t care about money, they’d die laughing, it’s been a huge issue.
It’s always easy to say 10 million doesn’t matter to you until you have it offered. These guys beat the crap out of each other in training every day. In the end, you shake hands as friends, agree to do it to enrich each other, and then go on vacation afterwards. It’s not that different than the 4 days a week they kill each other (with headgear).
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Strangers fight each other for free and then go grab a beer together (at least they did back in the day). Professional fighters can’t fight good friends and go drink with each other and laugh over all the money they just made with each other when it’s all said and done?
I realize it’s a bit of a simplistic and trite example…but c’mon. No one is saying these guys need to take or make it personal.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 2, 2009 11:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But then people will be on forums like these complaining about the fighters’ lack of killer instinct, or if they just point-fought for 25 minutes, Dana White would freak the F out, and people like Rome would bemoan how these guys are primadonnas with no passion for the sport. I say that when you offer someone to do something they don’t really want to do for money, don’t be surprised if they do the bare minimum. It’s like expecting your call girl to have an orgasm.
Has Henderson been asked if he’s only willing to fight at MW if he gets Silva next or if he gets a title shot next? If it’s the former, I agree with the prima donna thing, but if Hendo doesn’t want to take fights in MW while Anderson looks for “challenges,” that’s fair. What if Silva gives up/is stripped of the strap?
I can understand Hendo’s point. He’s already a legend in the sport. He’s beaten the who’s who of MMA. He’s coming close to the end of his career. Each fight is probably quite precious to him and he probably doesn’t want to waste them at this point. His last few fights he’s beaten some seriously skilled and highly rated fighters. I don’t think it’s prima donna at all. If he was early in his career saying that is one thing. At this point, I personally totally get it.
I have zero interest in Silva vs Machida
They don’t want to fight, and if they are made to then they won’t be going full force. There will probably be plenty of suspicion that they would choreograph the whole thing.
Also, I think guys like Kongo would give Anderson fits at HW, as well as the strong wrestlers like Cain, Carwin, and Lesnar.
Let Anderson take his break, by that time Dan and Nate will have worked it out, the word will be in on Vitor, and Rampage/Rashad/Shogun will be free for a mega 205 bout.
kongo is a tough dude, but i think silva destroys him inside round one.
by sadface on Sep 2, 2009 10:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There’s a big difference between not wanting to fight and not wanting to fight unless the price is right.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Sep 3, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
and I think at least for Machida it’s the former.
Why do you think that?
I haven’t seen him say that anywhere, and i think him, more that almost anyone else, looks at this purely as a sport. The guys been doing karate his whole life. It seems to me that he doesn’t look at it as a fight, he looks at it like a match.
I agree with this ^
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 3, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
RJJ’s fights have been doing pretty crap business, so I really think this “big money” showdown people are crowing about is a mirage. Silva will make more money from salary, shower bonus and ppv buys fighting in hyped up UFC bouts (randy, Brock, GSP) than fighting a long past relevant RJJ. Not to mention I’m not sure how much crossover/interest Silva will bring to the fight wihout the UFC name and marketing machine.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 2, 2009 10:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Silva should be an underdog against Kongo or CroCop. Have him rematch Hendo.
If Silve isn’t going to fight Hendo in the next 4 months ro so, Hendo/Marquardt would be interesting to annoint the #1 challenger, but atleast have Silva fight a 205’er during the interim.
Why do you think Kongo and Cro Cop would be a favorite over Silva?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Maybe not a favourite IMO Mike, but Cro Cop still posseses enough skill as a striker to be a danger to Silva. Yes, he has been sluggish recently, but his knee ops had a lot to do with that.
For people to just think he would walk straight through someone of CC’s ability is presumptious to say the least. We will see what shape Mirks is in at 103, but I think he will beat DS and then fight Couture anyway.
by Rob J Nathan on Sep 2, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Silva would just melt Cro Cop now. How many unimpressive performances in a row does it take before we accept he doesn’t have it now? He hasn’t looked good at all since he was in Pride.
Silva would be way too fast for the new Cro Cop too, who is beyond slow. He’d move in and out and pick him apart. And with a bad knee? Forget about it.
But hey, if people want to see it, I’m down with the fight. It’s exciting on paper.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Cro Cop's post-PRIDE fights:
dominated Sanchez (inferior opponent)
KO loss to Gonzaga (fluke/Gonzaga ain’t too shabby)
lost a desc to Kongo (got out ‘kickboxed’ by a great kickboxer {remember this point when we compare these two to silva})
no trouble with Mizuno (an inferior opponent )
was getting dominated by Overeem before a NC (much larger, stronger man who took him down several times. did you notice how Overeem would be in CroCop’s guard and use his elbows/forearms to push down on CroCops diaphragm to wear him out? people should do that more often).
defeated Choi no prob (large man, mediocre MMA skill)
defeated Al Turk (mediocre opponent, and with the help of an eye poke, but still, he didnt have much trouble)
So, since his Pride days, he’s beat the guys he should without much trouble (I’ll admit the Al Turk fight wasn’t a highlight real, but hows about Silva/Cote, Silva/Leites?), and lost to Gonzaga (top 10 LHW), and Kongo (a similar, dominant kickboxer).
So how does Silva have the advantage over CroCop/Kongo?
want me to list Anderson Silva’s post PRIDE fights too?
WIN
WIN
DQ – KOed Okami
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
WIN
oh wait, an impressive LOSS to a dominant kickboxer and a top 10 fighter is more impressive than all those wins over top fighters..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 2, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree that Cro Cop’s fights weren’t all against top competition. But neither were Silva’s (Jorge Rivera, Curtis Stout,Tony Fryklan,Chris Leben,Travis Lutter, James Irvin, Patrick Cote, Thales Leites). Also, CroCop is the bigger, stronger human being. Silva probably has the quickness advantage and is arguably a more accurate puncher, but CroCrop doesn’t exactly have a glass chin. I still don’t see how Silva would be favored against CroCop.
dude, silva cleaned up the MW division..
Lutter, Cote, and Leites were top dogs at the time they fought silva..
what did crocop do? Gonzaga wasn’t even top ten when he fought him.. it was after that when he got his ranking. So was kongo.. And he LOST both of those fights..
and don’t get me started on sanchez, mizuno, choi and al turk.
The old cro cop sure, but the cro cop now? slower, less kicks, less movement… Bigger and stronger? it’s not like he’s gonna use that strength advantage to take it to the ground and hold him there.. Silva is 6’2 just like Cro Cop, and silva probably has the longer reach..
Cro Cop is 220lbs.. Griffin probably weighs the same, and is taller by 2 inches..
the only advantage cro cop has is he has heavier hands.. If he lands them, he could win.. but that’s a big IF.. we all saw what happened when silva fights a big slow guy..
Cro cop can win sure, and it would be an interesting fight, but Silva would definitely be the favorite.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
crocop weighs around 230 i mean..
same point though. he won’t have a reach advantage, and he won’t use his size to push silva up the fence or to take him down..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
crocop is a MUCH bigger/better striker than Forrest. We also dont know how Anderson would preform with the extra 15 pounds. He may slow down significantly.
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
you do raise valid points and more than anything, I’d like to see a Silva CopCop matchup. I would say CroCop should be favored, but by no means do I think he’d be a 5 to1 favorite or anything. I’m just saying…
1) Silva cleaned up a relatively empty MW division. Did anyone really think Cote or Leites deserved a chance at the title?
2) Since Ganzaga beat CroCop, it’s been evident he’s a top tier HW.
3) I think we both agree that grappling wouldnt play much of a role in this fight. So basically it comes down to a kickboxing match. I’m not saying Silva wouldn’t have a chance against Cro Cop in a kickboxing match, but there IS a reason they have weight classes…
Ignoring the Cro Cop issue – c’mon dude – Lutter, Cote and Leites being “top” contenders speaks more to the dearth of legitimate challengers in the division than anything else.
Not trying to take anything away from AS but even he was acknowledging the lack of competition.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 3, 2009 12:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yep.. true. but my point was, Cote, Lutter and Leites at the time AS fought them >>> Choi, Sanchez and al turk when Mirko Fought them.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Forget Cote, Lutter, and Leites They were propped up as top challengers (OK let;s take out Cote. He’s a step up from the other two) But let’s not look past dominate wins over Franklin (x2), Hendo, and Nate. And the most impressive thing is two of these guys are also top 10 LHW. So we could actually say he’s got big LHW wins over Franklin (x2), Hendo, and Forrest. That’s an impressive resume to take into a HW fight against a small HW.
All three fighters are exceptional kickboxers, but I’d have to think CroCrop and Kongo are considerably stronger. Silva probably has better jits then either of them (or both of them combined…), but I don’t think CroCop or Kongo would: a) play around in his guard; or b) let Silva dominate them from top position.
Mir is the perfect HW for him to fight.
I think what will continue to give Andy problems, are the strong wrestlers. Cain, Carwin, Brock, those are the HW’s that would have an easier time with him. Frank would go toe-to-toe with Andy on his feet, and end up no better than Forest.
I do think the best matchups are at HW. He’s taller than Couture, so let him in there. He could be 220-225, and give alot of big guys trouble.
by Miketsi on Sep 2, 2009 10:24 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Dana said AS will box Roy Jones Jr before he fights at heavyweight.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 2, 2009 11:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What about doing Silva/Marquardt and giving Hendo a shot at Machida at the Superbowl show after Machida smokes Shogun? That way everyone gets something of value. If Rashad and Rampage fight in December, they wouldn’t fight again until like May or so anyway, I say fit in another Machida fight.
Because who do you give Nate then?
I suppose you could do Silva/Hendo and Marquardt/Wanderlei.
I just think my solution prevents a 7 month or so layoff for Machida that I don’t want.
by Michael Rome on Sep 2, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Wanderlei/Marquardt is mean. The Axe Murderer deserves at least a tune up fight at 185 before hand. He’s 1-5 in his last 6 and his only win came over Glass Jawdine.
Iron would have shattered under the force of those punches. The chemistry of the chin had nothing to do with that win.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 3, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
touche
i wasn’t really thinking about the big picture.
Maybe Franklin/Belfort winner for Machida? that might be kind of stretch, but Franklin does have some name value.
Marquardt/Okami so we have a reason to stop asking asking for Okami to be pushed up the later (other than his penchant for slow desicions). Marq/Silva would also be interesting.
Looking past Shogun already Michael?
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 2, 2009 11:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Do you think that’s unreasonable?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Sep 3, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
No, absolutely not.
Just seems like every time there’s a consensus on someone being a lock to win – we all get a rude awakening.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 3, 2009 12:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s not true, it’s just that the upsets are the only ones we remember. Everyone remembers GSP-Serra 1, nobody remembers GSP-Serra 2.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
Good point.
But even Randy-Nog, Torres-Bowles, Carano-Cyborg (this ones a bit silly in hindsight and I couldn’t understand the overwhelming predictions for Gina at the time -easy to say now), Liddell-Shogun and a few others if I think long enough are recent examples where almost 9/10 ppl seemed confident of outcomes and ate crow later.
I’m still picking Machida here for sure but I’m not assuming on the absolute certainty of him winning either since mma is crazy like that (which was all I was getting at :)).
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 3, 2009 12:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Really? The only one of those I thought was particularly surprising was Couture/Nogueira.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
(Honest question) seriously?
Maybe I’m “misremembering” but those fights stand out to me as ones where almost everyone (experts, casuals) was going heavily with one fighter and many not seeing many ways for the other to win.
Anyways – I’ve diverted us down the garden path long enough.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 3, 2009 1:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Silva-Leites, Silva-Cote, GSP-Serra II, Penn-Florian, Penn-Stevenson…
Etc.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I really don’t think I want to group Shogun in with Leites and Cote quite yet, I’m willing to give him a little more credit (I realize that’s not really your point here, but still!).
Side note: I didn’t think BJ was that overwhelming of a favorite, though that may have been a function of people really talking themselves into a Kenny win.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Sep 3, 2009 12:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is it just me or is AS being very coy about this. If you dont want to defend your title in the immediate future then what do you want to do? If he’s not trying to make a mega fight at 205 and he really does want to just rest then i guess i owe him an apology but it seems like his mgmt. have a fight in mind to keep the bucks coming in. I wish they would tell us what they had in mind. Mir is an exciting matchup. I suppose couture is too. Anyway, I cant see him being inactive just waiting for nate v. hendi to be settled.
whoa!!
brock lesnar?! i mean, silva could win, but where would that leave the hw division??
by cagefightonacid on Sep 2, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions
AS wouldnt beat brock;
he would be taken down and hammed from half guard… brocks too explosive and strong to play dancies with for 5 rounds.
Well that is easy to say.....
But what can you measure your prediction on?. If Griffin couldn’t get close enough to land a punch, how could Roidsner get close enough secure a takedown?. He looks explosive against Herring and Couture. But he could look like a real Monkey against Anderson and get busted up trying.
did you not see him move across the octagon in 1/2 sec?
so you think AS is faster then brock, by like 400%? the same as brock was to randy/HH/mir? really??! brocks got the range, the power, speed and wrestling to give As fits all night long; and hes almost 100 pounds heavier (read stronger and more powerful)…
AS is the P4P best (i think) but he can’t beat everyone… if hendo got a hold of him and took him down; im pretty sure brock can too…. the difference is brock has the ground wrestling to keep BJJ under him and flat.
you guys both have points for sure, and i don’t think we’d ever know unless they actually fought. which couldn’t be good for the divisions.
by cagefightonacid on Sep 3, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Brock could take AS down with his heavy breathing.
Let’s be serious here. AS would be snapped like a twig, as much as I love the guy. his only chance is to KO Brock during a bum rush.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 3, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
i think it’s opinion until it happens
by cagefightonacid on Sep 3, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
when it comes down to it...
I think A.S. will sign a new contract with the UFC after his next fight… he’ll realize retiring right now in his prime will be a mistake. I hope.
My solution:
Marquardt VS Hendo for an interim championship. Might be the only way to get hendo to do it.
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes
Ed Soares already suggested that to the UFC, he said they didn’t seem too receptive to it.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 2, 2009 11:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that came from MMA Bay
who are noted liars
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 3, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The MMA weekly link in Mike’s article says this:
During the workouts, Soares told MMAWeekly.com he suggested the promotion make an interim title bout featuring the winner of Marquardt/Maia vs. Dan Henderson. The UFC didn’t jump on the idea.
"They didn’t really say much to it," said Soares.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
“He wants to work out a little kinks and bruises that he’s got.”
Kinks and bruises from what, the ONE punch Forrest landed on him? I’m sorry but Ed Soares just gets on my nerves, he just seems like he’s lying every time he opens his mouth. I realize his job is to do whatever is in the best interests of his fighters but don’t inult our intelligence by just spewing flat out BS whenever you talk.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 2, 2009 11:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
silva gets hit more in practice..
especially when he trains boxing with roach..
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 2, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Impossible for Anderson to pick up some minor injuries in training?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
No, it’s not impossible, but I think it is about one hundred times more likely that this is just more posturing from the Silva camp, as they are well known for.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
i agree. last week there were two fanposts (i think) posted back to back with silva and soares releasing completely contradictory statements about the same topic. i’m sure he’s a reputable manager, and i know it’s his job to keep his client’s name in the headlines, but his fantasy matchmaking suggestions are a little ridiculous at times.
Right, and I’m getting sick of all these UFC fighters and managers thinking they run the show. I can see guys who train together not wanting to fight but other than that everything should be fair game, it’s not up to Dan Henderson whether he needs to fight Nate Marquardt next, that’s Joe Silva and Dana White’s job.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
yeah, i’m sure most managers toss them suggestions for fights they’d like to see, but soares chooses to do it via the press… which seems to come off like him overstepping his bounds. to each their own i suppose.
One thought I’d like to add to all this is that some guys are going to have to step up and improve their stand-up. It’s easy for me to say, I know, but Anderson’s not just some genetic superman. Hopefully, like great players in other sports, his dominance will eventually bring up the level of all fighters around him through them trying to match him. Guys need to work their speed, timing and striking accuracy hard. The ju-jitsu may have to suffer for a bit…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 3, 2009 12:33 AM EDT reply actions
I that what is being missed here.....
Is that Anderson has been making many comments that question his further motivation such as “there is more to life than fighting” and “I have 3 more fights on my contract and I am done”. I think in his case, you have to take him at his word. This means there are only 3 fights, and he has really made it clear he doesn’t want anymore middleweights. And I don’t think money is a big motivation.
made i clear he doesn’t want middleweights? I thought he made it clear that he does want to defend the belt. (just not aginast hendi unlesshe beats nate first). He certianly is being an enigma. I guess they (AS) think they can make a lot more money fighting Mir or anohter big name instead of Hendi. I have no idea why. I guess ppl just like novelties. I remember in an interview he said he would like to retire at 35 or 36 if Dana was compensating him adequately but he left the impression that at present he was not gettting the bucks he deserves. Big suprise, i know but , it definetly confirms that he only wants the biggest fights. But does it make sense to just hope a bigger fight comes down the pike while nate and hendo fight or will he just sit ti out for a while and wait? maybe he is more patient then we give him credit for and will just wait for the “true # 1 contender” . IN any event once he beats the winner of that fight he DEFINETLY needs to give up that strap so he can keep some weight on.
Sure sounds like posturing to get a bigger payday.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
So...
I think Heavyweight is the best and most intriguing option. If a 46 yr old, 6’1, 220 lb Couture can do it. Think about 6’2, 220 lb Anderson with his timing, speed, footwork and seemingly bigger power on display against Forrest.(whom just a few weeks earlier was busting up Frank Mir in sparring sessions, BTW)
And I never thought about CroCop. If gets by Dos Santos that could be a good fight.
(whom just a few weeks earlier was busting up Frank Mir in sparring sessions, BTW)
BTW it was a headbutt, so it means nothing.
I give Kongo a fair chance. Ok don’t report me yet I’ll explain.
Kongo can’t do shit against a takedown, and once he is on the ground he usually stays on the ground (well his opponent is a good wrestler that is). But silva don’t shoot that much. Kongo is pretty fast, precise and powerful, we saw very well how dangerous his stand up is against cain. Imo it’s a good match up.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
I doubt he will be as fast at 220 as he is at 205/185. Thats his out of shape weight.
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
I’ve just gotta say, while Silva vs Lesnar would make for an intriguing matchup (i.e. he has a better chance of losing), can you imagine the clusterfuck it’ll create if Silva wins? He’ll have the belt and then refuse to defend it because he’ll want out to do his boxing shit. Not mention, it seems like an unlikely fight anyway, because he’ll want Nog to have a shot at the belt.
Ok, the Anderson Silva hyperbole needs to stop it’s started to get embarrasing now. First off there is no Silva problem, simply put regardless of what he or Soares want he’ll fight whoever the UFC tells him to fight period.
Secondly, this fantasy mma talk about him fighting at HW is DOA Dana put it six feet deep in the ground where it belongs. So people can also stop with the Anderson Silva vs. Brock Lesnar stuff put down the jesus juice fanboys the cheerleading has gotten out of hand.
Third, it’s simple as long as Anderson Silva has the MW title he belongs to the UFC. So after 3 fights, he wants to do other things too bad he still is going to have to do whatever the UFC tells him to.
Finally, the only thing that people need to be concentrating on is when and where are Anderson and Nate going to rematch for the MW title. Because that’s going to be his next fight whether he likes it or not, that’s one great thing about the UFC is Dana and Lorenzo run the show not these primadonna fighters.
by Raker on Sep 3, 2009 2:58 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree that he should fight whoever the UFC tells him to but the truth is he doesn’t have to take any fight that he doesn’t want. If Dana told him that his next fight will be against Ed Herman could you blame Anderson for not signing that bout agreement? In reality the fight has to make sense for the organization and the fighter both.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 3, 2009 9:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t see anything wrong with a fighter wanting a true contender, given the fact that andy already beat both Nage the Great and Hendo convincingly. Hell, he has three to four fights left (depending on who you believe), I want to see them against top competition. Having Hendo vs Marquardt would definitely have a worthy opponent, because truth be told, I still don’t think either of them will give andy any problems.
Andersons next fight
If Silva fights at 205 again, I think that he will compete against Randy Couture or Rashad. If Rashad beats Rampage, I doubt that he will get the next title shot. He recently lost to Lyoto and it just doesn;t sound all that marketable. However, if Rashad were to beat Anderson Silva, a title shot would make sense. And that is why Rashad would want to take that fight. I think that Rashad would also fight Silva if he were to lose to Rampage as well. Randy has expressed interest in facing Silva so that is certainly a possibility as well. However, I think that Silva should fight at heavyweight now. It is an exciting idea and it would be amazing to see if he could compete or even take the heavyweight title. The top two middleweight contenders have already been beaten by Silva once. I know that fighters improve but that still doesn’t make it marketable. Give him a shot at the heavyweight title if he won’t try to take the 205. It makes sense. He needs to compete at heavyweight. We already know he is the greatest middleweight in MMA history. Taking the heavyweight title as well would solidify Silva as the greatest MMA fighter of all time in my opinion.
Proposed Solution to Anderson Silva Problem and a question
Henderson being so adamant about not fighting Nate throws a real kink into this plan of mine, but at this point I’m not interested in seeing Anderson fight either; he beat both too decisively the first time out. If one of them beats the other, I think we’d have a true title contender and I could at least see a bit more logic in that winner fighting Anderson for the belt.
In the meantime, I think UFC could give Anderson a superfight at 205, perhaps from among Lyoto’s “sloppy seconds” – guys that Lyoto beat decisively that still have some name recognition. That way, the UFC won’t miss out on possible 205 lbs. title fights if/when Anderson runs clinics on them.
My candidates at 205 to fight Anderson are: Rashad Evans, Thiago Silva, and Tito Ortiz. Obviously, Rashad’s candidacy for this spot hinges on the results of his fight with Rampage (if that fight comes to pass), but given how their first fight went, would anyone be too intrigued with a Machida/Evans rematch? I think Ortiz might be the best bet as he has the least potential upswing of the pack and arguably the most name recognition. Plus, depending on how he looks post-surgery, he might give Anderson a helluva fight (or more) given that his greatest strength, wrestling, is Anderson’s greatest weakness, by conventional wisdom.
Like I said, with Henderson refusing to fight Marquardt, there is a new monkey wrench in this plan.
Question: Did Anderson get some kind of pay boost before his fight with Forrest? I always hypothesized that maybe he turned in sub-par performances against Cote and Leites as a type of protest against what deemed an inadequate paycheck…
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