Anderson Silva NEEDS to fight Henderson & Marquardt - PROOF
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
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PrintIt's a very simple premise. Anderson Silva NEEDS to fight both Dan Henderson & Nathan Marquardt for the UFC World Middleweight Championship. And here are the facts to back it up. There have been 8 rematches in the UFC where a fighter lost in a championship fight, and then got a rematch for the title again. The ones in BOLD show the times when the guy who lost the first fight won the 2nd one....
- Randy Couture vs. Pedro Rizzo - Couture Won Fights #1 & #2
- Andrei Arlovski vs. Tim Sylvia - Arlovski Won Fight #1. Sylvia Won Fights #2 & #3.
- Randy Couture vs. Chuck Liddell - Couture Won Fight #1. Liddell Won Fights #2 & #3.
- Anderson Silva vs. Rich Franklin - Silva Won Fights #1 & #2.
- Matt Hughes vs. Carlos Netwon - Hughes Won Fights #1 & #2.
- BJ Penn vs. Matt Hughes - Penn Won Fight #1. Hughes Won Fight #2.
- Matt Hughes vs. Georges St. Pierre - Hughes Won Fight #1. GSP Won Fights #2 & #3.
- Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra - Serra Won Fight #1. GSP Won Fight #2.
NOTE: I left out Couture vs. Belfort due to the fluke occurance of their first title fight....
Imagine if Matt Hughes refused to give GSP a rematch? Or if Couture did the same with Liddell? This idea that Anderson Silva is above rematches is a bunch of BS. Dan Henderson and Nathan Marquardt are both worthy challengers to his championship. And history has proven that title fight rematches don't always go in favor of the champion. In fact, from the list above, 5 out of 8 went in the opposite direction..... That's 62.5%.
Now, if we were talking about doing a Championship Trilogy, then I could understand the issue. In all 5 cases above, the guy who won the 2nd Fight, won the 3rd (in title fights). They have all been pointless so far.
Outside of the statistics, Anderson Silva still needs to fight these guys for the belt. The idea that any fighter is above rematches is crap. No fighter is above rematches. MMA has been built on classic rematches that shined better then the first and showed that even 2 years later a fighter can win with either improved skills or a better gameplan. If a guy has built himself as a contender again, he is worthy of that rematch.
Anderson Silva needs to stop worry about moving up two weight classes to fight random fighters, and start taking the legit title challengers that are in front of him..... And that is Dan Henderson & Nathan Marquardt.
And if he does beat them both and no other legit challengers are out there..... I see no reason for him to vacate the belt and move up a weight class.... But that time is not now.
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Wow, that’s some awkward logic right there.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Tim Burke on Sep 2, 2009 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Huh?
He put up good statistics. 62% of the time, the loser won the rematch.
by cyph on Sep 2, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
Basically, his argument is that there’s precedent for title fight rematches and that the first fight doesn’t necessarily go the way the later fights go.
I think the logic is fine.
Not everybody. But the guys who have built themselves back up to title contention.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Those statistics are meaningless.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Sep 2, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Because statistics on their own, without context, are always meaningless. Statistics should back up a thought out analysis, not be the crux of it.
There are so many variables that have not been considered before this wild assumption was made that its not even funny. How close were the original fights? Whats the length of time between the original and rematches? How many defences made in that time? etc, etc. Variables make a situation and each situation should be judged on its own merits.
Not to say statistics should never be used, but you need to use them intelligently and have caveats in place.
by -Sam on Sep 3, 2009 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Silva is a different fighter. a much more different fighter than the champions described. He is quite possibly the greatest fighter on the planet. It’s not like he is fighting other middleweights instead of Hendo and Marquart just because he already beat the two. He is dominating top fighters in a weight class above him and has the opportunity to move up to heavyweight and cement his legacy as the greatest mixed martial artist to ever step into the octagon. I think he is very capable of taking on the heavyweights and a fight at heavyweight needs to happen. Kongo, Cro Cop, or Mir would be a great fight. I think if he fights at 205 or middleweight again, his other 2 fights should be at heavyweight.
Not to mention the numbers the argument relies on have a whopping sample size of 8.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
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And that’s PROOF that Nate and Hendo deserve rematches? Every single one of those was a completely different situation.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
The difference here is that this is Anderson Silva. That alone makes the situation completely different.
Add to that he may only have 3 fights left in his MMA career, and yeah I think Marquardt and Hendo need to just fight each other.
Randy Couture was Randy Couture. Matt Hughes was Matt Hughes. Neither turned down a worthy challenger while champion.
Just because they are a big name means nothing. Couture looked unstoppable at Light Heavyweight when Couture KO’d him. Hughes looked unstoppable at Welterweight when GSP KO’d him.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he left out Hughes/Trigg, so that skews his stats somewhat.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Why does he have to fight both Hendo and Marq? I’d like to see both fights but I’m allmost more interested inb a true contender match if it is definite that it will result in a title challenge.
I think the UFC could do more to have small “mini tournaments” have the 4 availible top tier guys below the champ meat, have a pseudo-semis where the winners contend for a guaranteed title shot.
They allready do this to some extent, but if they did this more then they could hype those fights more, thats what they did with hendo bisping then all of a sudden its not really a contender match anymore?
I’m not saying this should be standard praxis but every now in a while this would actually help create som legitimacy imo, maybe I’m just bitter cause I miss the old Pride GP’s but I still think that semi-official mini tourneys would help legitimate contenders.
This would also mean that some less marketable fights might get done, like giving okami a shot or whomever is not in favour atm but still a top dog. Which might be bad for draws, but they can compensate by the interdivisional extra curriculars they are doing atm, like catch weights or champions fightings middle echelon fighter in another division.
Anderson Silva DOESN'T NEED to Fight Henderson & Marquardt - PROOF
There have been 8 rematches in the UFC where a fighter lost in a championship fight, and then got a rematch for the title again. The ones in BOLD show the times when the guy who won the first fight also won the 2nd one….
1. Randy Couture vs. Pedro Rizzo – Couture Won Fights #1 & #2
2. Andrei Arlovski vs. Tim Sylvia – Arlovski Won Fight #1. Sylvia Won Fights #2 & #3.
3. Randy Couture vs. Chuck Liddell – Couture Won Fight #1. Liddell Won Fights #2 & #3.
4. Anderson Silva vs. Rich Franklin – Silva Won Fights #1 & #2.
5. Matt Hughes vs. Carlos Netwon – Hughes Won Fights #1 & #2.
6. BJ Penn vs. Matt Hughes – Penn Won Fight #1. Hughes Won Fight #2.
7. Matt Hughes vs. Georges St. Pierre – Hughes Won Fight #1. GSP Won Fights #2 & #3.
8. Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra – Serra Won Fight #1. GSP Won Fight #2.
As you can see, Anderson Silva is 1 of only 3 champions to defend his belt in a rematch against the man he beat for the title. Given that his second bout with Franklin was a carbon copy of the first, let’s just assume that his rematches with Henderson and Marquardt would be too.
by Chris Nelson on Sep 2, 2009 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
And to counter your point, both Couture & Hughes failed eventually when they have more then one multiple time defender….
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
And you are leaving out the fact
that Randy & Hughes were old (relatively for the sport). Hughes faced a younger, more explosive dominant fighter who more than likely would have also beaten him the first time if not for that armbar. & Randy getting blasted twice by Chuck shows how the first fight was a fluke.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Well yes, I'm sure there are many fighters who would have won fights if they hadn't already lost them a few minutes earlier.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Anderson Silva is 34
Matt Hughes is 36 and was 34 when he fought GSP.
For me it comes down too...
…if he really will only fight another 3 times in the UFC, which I’m pretty sure isn’t 100% either way at the moment.
If he’s going to get a new contract than i think he should defend his title, probably against both Hendo and Marquardt at some point, but if he really has only got 3 fights left, well, i think we all want to keep 1 fight free for Machida if there is even the slightest chance that will ever happen, but if it’s for the title i expect he’ll need at least one more fight at LHW before just being given a title shot (maybe Silva vs the winner of Rampage / Evans?) which only leaves 1.
I certainly don’t think it’s fair on the MW contenders, but as a fan i’d rather see the p4p no. 1 in the more interesting bouts if his fights really are limited
One of the things you’ve left out of this analysis, though, is the reality of whether the losing fighter has actually “built himself back up into contention.”
If we’re talking about Henderson and Marquardt, I can see the case for Marquardt deserving a rematch. He’s clearly a much different and much better fighter than he was the first time around. Henderson, though, has done absolutely nothing since tapping (recently) to Silva to suggest he’s got something different to offer this time around. He arguably lost the fight to Franklin but got a close decision win and then knocked out Michael “I think I’ll just walk right into Henderson’s best tool” Bisping. Those two fights didn’t scream to me, “he Henderson looks much better now than when Silva beat him.”
When you look through the other fights on your list, you either have a significant passage of time and growth by the losing fighter, an extremely close first fight, or something else to make everyone reasonably argue that a rematch is likely to go differently (you know, like Serra beating GSP and everyone absolutely knowing it wouldn’t happen that way again).
I don’t think just listing the number of times rematches have gone differently, without providing any meaningful context or consideration, means anything. Your “logic” would suggest Silva should give Leben a rematch, too. Or Cote. Or “Floppy.” Or …
Michael "I think I’ll just walk right into Henderson’s best tool" Bisping
That’s a good nickname.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
He’s earned it. Same with GSP. Same with Fedor. I think guys like that earn the right to take fights off.
http://twitter.com/FlyByKnite
I cant
give Fedor the same amount of respect. GSP and Spider have cleaned house. Fedor has had noodle soup.
Noodle Soup
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 3, 2009 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Fedor’s been fighting noodle soup. While Anderson’s been beating… Chris Leben, Travis Lutter, Patrick Cote, and Thales Leites. GSP is legit, nobody has a stronger schedule than him
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Sep 3, 2009 3:51 AM EDT up reply actions
can't all three be legit?
Weak or not, Silva has cleaned out his division, which includes Dan Henderson, Nate Marquardt and Rich Franklin twice.. and a top 5 LHW too.
You bring up the weakest opponents of Silva, but Fedor has had even weaker opponents in his resume.. But neither changes the fact that all three are legit and all three have beaten some of the best fighters in the world.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Who's the guy in the crown?
And are those really Cro Cop’s legs? They look like they belong to someone else.
semmy schilt
K-1 Legend.. Fought quite a few times in PRIDE and the UFC..
Mirko’s legs look fake cause they photoshopped the background and the pillars.
by Anton Tabuena on Sep 3, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah he sure has….Cro Cop and Minotauro in there primes.
by WeaponElDeem on Sep 3, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He'd win by triangle choke....against both of them.....at the same time.
Beverly Hills 90210.......Denver Broncos 7.
I can see the argument to fight the winner of a Marquardt/Hendo fight but I would rather see him in more super fights at 205
Here's the rub with Dan...
Can’t complain about Anderson being picky about his next fights, when Dan Henderson thinks he has carte blanche after squeaking past Franklin and destroying Bisping…Nate looks better than when Andy beat him, Dan is still Dan. So obviously Dan vs. Marquardt is the right match. They’ve never fought each other, I’d like to see it, and Dan hasn’t earned the right to a rematch yet, despite what he thinks…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Sep 4, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Just as others have said, your statistics lack context.
Both Dan and Nate have a decent case for deserving a rematch, but quite frankly neither rematch is very compelling. Both were finished convincingly in under 2 rounds and never threatened Silva. Despite what some believe, I don’t feel as though either Dan or Nate have drastically improved since their previous title shot (Dan might very well be worse due to his age).
I feel as though both Dan and Nate are equally deserving of a title shot, but in no way do I want to see Silva have to fight BOTH of them instead of other more compelling fights he could be having.
So in the end Dan vs. Nate for a title shot is what needs to happen.
Compelling?
I assume you mean at 205 and not 185. There aren’t a lot of “compelling” fights left for Spider at 185. Yushin Okami is what everyone has been screaming to see, and it may happen, but when/if it does it’ll be anticlimactic.
I agree that there are a large # of interesting fights for Anderson at LHW. But I also feel that if he isn’t going to fight for the belt there, he shouldn’t be picking off contenders.
Panties seem to be twisted in this thread due to the author’s use of the words (in all caps) NEEDS and PROOF. I agree that the case for such strong language is weak to non-existent, but if he had worded it “Why Anderson Silva Should Fight Both Henderson and Marquardt” and then presented his argument, I wouldn’t have any issue with it. Hendo and Marquardt are very strong contenders right now.
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